PVE Healing - Questions Nobody is Asking

HaemaMagus

I’ve been digging through the forums with one question in mind on the whole PVE endgame (trial) healing debate with not a single clear answer. So I’mma ask it here, plus 1 other question that relates to it. I would prefer if a Dev member would answer this clearly and concisely so I know what their thought process is in all this but since many members of the community don’t think that the Grand Healing/Necrotic Orb nerf is that bad, I’d like them to answer this.

These questions are strictly for PVE Trial Healing, vet or normal. Not PVP.

1. With these changes in place, how bad is healing for non-Templars? (i.e. Healblade etc)
2. With these changes in place what needs to be changed to non-Templar healing classes (if any)?

I have an idea of the above answers, but I’d like the community, those that have been able to test things on the PTS, and a dev member to answer.

*P.S. Rerolling a class is not an option. If we’re going to keep to the standard of any class any role then all healing classes should be able to complete it. Not just one.


Bonus question since it seems to be another issue us healer mains seem to be facing: How likely is it for the healing role to be replaced with stam-DDs running Echoing Vigor?

-An upset Healblade/Healsorc player

Iskiab

From my perspective reading the notes as a magblade healer:

For PvE healing dungeons it will have some but not that much effect. I rarely use healing springs anyways. Orbs I don’t rely on to heal, I just pump them for the synergy.

For PvE healing trials it will be catastrophic. Might be a bit of hyperbole, but I don’t see how a magblade could be competitive. Maybe I’m wrong, it’s the kind of thing you’d have to try and mess around with, but I don’t see how a magblade could pump out enough aoe healing.

1x healing springs
1x refreshing path
1x Force Siphon
Then what? Spam Combat Prayer?

I can see the meta being 1 magplar and one Stamwarden.

HaemaMagus

Iskiab wrote: »

From my perspective reading the notes as a magblade healer:

For PvE healing dungeons it will have some but not that much effect. I rarely use healing springs anyways. Orbs I don’t rely on to heal, I just pump them for the synergy.

For PvE healing trials it will be catastrophic. Might be a bit of hyperbole, but I don’t see how a magblade could be competitive. Maybe I’m wrong, it’s the kind of thing you’d have to try and mess around with, but I don’t see how a magblade could pump out enough aoe healing.

1x healing springs
1x refreshing path
1x Force Siphon
Then what? Spam Combat Prayer?

I can see the meta being 1 magplar and one Stamwarden.

And I'm already burned out on my magplar. Yay.

I'll be honest, this right here is how I thought healblade was going to be. Glad to know my thoughts are backed up by a higher skilled player. Of all the classes, I feel magblade and magcro (I could be wrong here) could have tweaks to some of their class abilities to substitute for Grand Healing/1 Orb. Making Sap Essence a strong HoT or a bigger heal (with a wider range of course) for instance. But unless they major overhaul Sorcerer, I think that class is dead.

FrancisCrawford

Iskiab wrote: »

1x healing springs
1x refreshing path
1x Force Siphon
Then what? Spam Combat Prayer?

1 Orb
1 Soul Siphon on cooldown (w/ Soul Harvest on the other bar)
Not Sap Essence

And that's all I got. But then, I've never mastered NB healing at all. I've healed harder content on literally all five other classes than I ever have on a NB.

Aznarb

Was a NB healer main, now, as you can see in my Sign, I'm back in my templar after reading the patch note.
Their is no way we can do hard content after this patch.

Maybe I'll roll a stam-healer, they gonna be have the best healing output with these change..
Idk, I'm just sad and disappointed right know.

ccfeeling

My friends always asked me that why I used NB healer instead of templar?
Im happy I can fulfill all my healer jobs with this toon, but I might change my mind after this patched.

stevenyaub16_ESO

apart from vigor and ring of preservation what other stam heals are there?

Skelfish

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

apart from vigor and ring of preservation what other stam heals are there?

Stamden has Soothing Spores and Vines. The latter might cost magicka, but it scales off the highest stat for the heal and it's one of the strongest short duration HoTs. They also have Lotus Blossom, which has a stamina oriented morph which also smart heals an ally on light or heavy attacking.

Aznarb

Skelfish wrote: »

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

apart from vigor and ring of preservation what other stam heals are there?

Stamden has Soothing Spores and Vines. The latter might cost magicka, but it scales off the highest stat for the heal and it's one of the strongest short duration HoTs. They also have Lotus Blossom, which has a stamina oriented morph which also smart heals an ally on light or heavy attacking.

+ Altar who now cost life instead of mana and orb get cost lower + only 1 needed to the whole team.
Pretty huge buff for sustain and efficiency of stam healer.
Edit : also vigor got a huge buff.

That mean you got very strong HoT + Good aoe burst heal.

Iskiab

+ bone shield to round out the list. I might try a stamwarden bow healer, if you like off meta stuff that sounds like it’ll be strong and interesting.

Everything will be x healer plus a templar unless it changes to only 1 healer, so the Templar can cover Combat Prayer.

HaemaMagus

Aznarb wrote: »

Skelfish wrote: »

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

apart from vigor and ring of preservation what other stam heals are there?

Stamden has Soothing Spores and Vines. The latter might cost magicka, but it scales off the highest stat for the heal and it's one of the strongest short duration HoTs. They also have Lotus Blossom, which has a stamina oriented morph which also smart heals an ally on light or heavy attacking.

+ Altar who now cost life instead of mana and orb get cost lower + only 1 needed to the whole team.
Pretty huge buff for sustain and efficiency of stam healer.
Edit : also vigor got a huge buff.

That mean you got very strong HoT + Good aoe burst heal.

I honestly don't know how to feel about this. On the one hand I should be happy that stam healer can now be a thing. But on the other hand it came at the expense of healing as a whole. Because as I asked in my bonus question - what stops damage dealers from slotting vigor and going without a healer at all? Pity? Maybe Combat Prayer I guess.

SaintSubwayy

Aznarb wrote: »

Skelfish wrote: »

stevenyaub16_ESO wrote: »

apart from vigor and ring of preservation what other stam heals are there?

Stamden has Soothing Spores and Vines. The latter might cost magicka, but it scales off the highest stat for the heal and it's one of the strongest short duration HoTs. They also have Lotus Blossom, which has a stamina oriented morph which also smart heals an ally on light or heavy attacking.

+ Altar who now cost life instead of mana and orb get cost lower + only 1 needed to the whole team.
Pretty huge buff for sustain and efficiency of stam healer.
Edit : also vigor got a huge buff.

That mean you got very strong HoT + Good aoe burst heal.

the "huge" buff to echoing vigor is kinda 50/50 tbh
jeah you healt a ton, but only every 2 seconds

for a safe run you'd need a tick each second, if the other healers rips, a heal all 2 seconds might not cut it.
Maybe on a warden or a templar stam Healer it can work, due to the other class skills...but on a stamsorc for example...no chance at all

MartiniDaniels

HaemaMagus wrote: »

If we’re going to keep to the standard of ANY CLASS ANY ROLE then all healing classes should be able to complete it. Not just one.

-An upset Healblade/Healsorc player

Lilly_Elessa

Plenty of players have answered this, but it could do with a Dev answer. Because truly we would all quite like one.

But the answer is exactly what you've found in every other thread: It's bad. There's already a huge gap on the live servers right now between templars/wardens/(sorta necros) and sorc/nb/dk for healing. To be blunt, NB got shoved out the door for healing back with Nerfmire. This patch is cementing NB's sidelined spot as a healer, and ensuring that Sorc and DK join them.

Likeliness of healers being replaced with DPS with a heal strapped on? Well it already exists widely in dungeons, and coordinated groups have already been running one healer. Only time will tell, but ...

HaemaMagus

Lilly_Elessa wrote: »

Plenty of players have answered this, but it could do with a Dev answer. Because truly we would all quite like one.

But the answer is exactly what you've found in every other thread: It's bad. There's already a huge gap on the live servers right now between templars/wardens/(sorta necros) and sorc/nb/dk for healing. To be blunt, NB got shoved out the door for healing back with Nerfmire. This patch is cementing NB's sidelined spot as a healer, and ensuring that Sorc and DK join them.

Likeliness of healers being replaced with DPS with a heal strapped on? Well it already exists widely in dungeons, and coordinated groups have already been running one healer. Only time will tell, but ...

My one wish and greatest hope is that the dev can shed some light on these changes. While they can make the argument that these two skills are over performing in PvE I don't see how for classes like DK, NB and Sorc where they actually need these to even be healers. This feels like a completely PvP change at the expense of PvE.

Can we please know, if these changes are going to be permanent, what you'll do to fix the lack of class healing skills for these classes (especially Sorc and possibly Necro) and if they are going to be soon.

p00tx

Stam healers will still be useless (for now, until they provide stam options for bigger heals and resource sustain) unless they can toss an orb and combat prayer and one of the Springs morphs, which costs mag and the heal scales off of mag. Is a stam healer going to wear Symphony and Navii to help offset the will skill cost increases this next patch? We also need two separate healers who can heal independently of one another for most trials. In AA, HRC, SO, MoL, SS, and HoF, teams split at some point, and if only one healer can adequately fill their roll and provide needed buffs, then the team not assigned to the mag healer will not be nearly as successful, if at all. In order to survive this current silliness, healers are going to have to collaborate more and stack opposite morphs of the same skill to provide enough healing for many of the game mechanics (ie. Healing Springs+Illustrious Healing), getting rid of one of the effective healers in favor of what amounts to a stam DD with off heals is not going to be effective. I think players keep conveniently forgetting all of the heal checks placed in this game's various trials like overcharge or shield phases or the intense execute phases or even the new one on the final boss of SS.

I really do see this game forcing healers to either play Templar, Warden, or Necro, with Templar being most preferred because we're the only ones who the extra sustain burst option (shards). My sorc healer is just going to become a small scale PvP healer for now.

Myux

i dont get why yall always want every class to be able to do everything with the same level of viability. it should be hard as hell to be a good healer on a *** pyromancer/geomancer, why do you want it to be just as good as the dedicated classes with healing support skill lines anyway. trying to balance the game like that just makes all classes the same. optimally id like it if less optimal classes had upsides to them that the others didnt, but overall they offer less utility than the classes more optimized for it.

and why do you healers always want the game to be easy as hell anyway?

and why do none of you ever mention the fact that magblades healing is supposed to be bloodmage stuff?

gamerbunny9910_ESO

Myux wrote: »

i dont get why yall always want every class to be able to do everything with the same level of viability. it should be hard as hell to be a good healer on a *** pyromancer/geomancer, why do you want it to be just as good as the dedicated classes with healing support skill lines anyway. trying to balance the game like that just makes all classes the same. optimally id like it if less optimal classes had upsides to them that the others didnt, but overall they offer less utility than the classes more optimized for it.

and why do you healers always want the game to be easy as hell anyway?

and why do none of you ever mention the fact that magblades healing is supposed to be bloodmage stuff?

Each class should absolutely be able to be a viable healer in their own way. That's how the game is marketed, anyone can do anything. A geomancer should definitely be a strong mitigation/shield healer, and there's a long tradition in fantasy and RPGs of flame-based healers, cauterizing and purifying their hearts out.

Nightblades ARE blood mages, which is why they need their blood magic healing to be viable to run.

HaemaMagus

Myux wrote: »

i dont get why yall always want every class to be able to do everything with the same level of viability. it should be hard as hell to be a good healer on a *** pyromancer/geomancer, why do you want it to be just as good as the dedicated classes with healing support skill lines anyway. trying to balance the game like that just makes all classes the same. optimally id like it if less optimal classes had upsides to them that the others didnt, but overall they offer less utility than the classes more optimized for it.

and why do you healers always want the game to be easy as hell anyway?

and why do none of you ever mention the fact that magblades healing is supposed to be bloodmage stuff?

I'm not asking for it to be as good as dedicated healing classes. My Healblade and Healsorc are off-meta picks right now and that's fine. I'm not asking for them to be meta. I'm asking for them to be viable.

What I think you're missing in my point is that with these changes certain classes do not have the tools needed to supplement the nerfs that are incoming.

Sorcerer has 1 class heal. One. And it doesn't even replace the healing output of 3 stacks of Springs or Illustrious.
Nightblade doesn't even use most of the Siphoning skill line. Funnel Health is a worse Regeneration and Regeneration isn't taken into trials. Sap Essence? Never seen it in a trial either.

I'm not sure what others are saying, but what I'm saying is that several classes will not be able to heal at all with these changes. Templar and Warden are meta now and they will next patch. Sorc, NB, and DK are off meta now, and won't be healing classes at all.

Vajrak

The idea that every healer needed to run spam-orbs and spam-springs to heal content is exactly WHY the change is being made.

DK Healers bring reliable mitigation along with small burst heals, and pulls the staff for the HoTs.
Sorc gets a decent cost 3-heal and then needs to rely more on the Resto.
Templar gets some HoTs and 2 Bursts.
Necro gets a lot of HoTs but a bit of a skill cap with placement.
Warden gets a LOT of healing options for burst, hots, flying around the map.

Nightblade gets:
A good HoT that can be tossed onto multiple targets (Funnel Health)
A burst-heal (Healthy Offering)
A speed boost tied to a Hot (Refreshing Path)
A PBAoE Burst Heal (Sap Essence)

PBAoE @8m is a pretty damn wide area, easy to hit 5 mobs if in a cluster and get that 20% per mob bonus.

If you have to go in multiple directions in a fight, throw orbs in one and use refreshing path on the other, and can use Springs to supplement, along with Regeneration. Seems like there are more than enough options, just requires a bit more attention to positioning in the fights.

Iskiab

Myux wrote: »

and why do none of you ever mention the fact that magblades healing is supposed to be bloodmage stuff?

Well ZoS went out of their way to nerf that playstyle. Funnel health and sap essence (as a heal) are terrible. Why beat a dead horse.

Easier to give up on the abilities, the class works on live without them, post patch...

Nightblades actually have just as many healing abilities as Templars, but for some reason ZoS only wants Templar abilities to be good.

Royaji

Vajrak wrote: »

The idea that every healer needed to run spam-orbs and spam-springs to heal content is exactly WHY the change is being made.

DK Healers bring reliable mitigation along with small burst heals, and pulls the staff for the HoTs.
Sorc gets a decent cost 3-heal and then needs to rely more on the Resto.
Templar gets some HoTs and 2 Bursts.
Necro gets a lot of HoTs but a bit of a skill cap with placement.
Warden gets a LOT of healing options for burst, hots, flying around the map.

Nightblade gets:
A good HoT that can be tossed onto multiple targets (Funnel Health)
A burst-heal (Healthy Offering)
A speed boost tied to a Hot (Refreshing Path)
A PBAoE Burst Heal (Sap Essence)

PBAoE @8m is a pretty damn wide area, easy to hit 5 mobs if in a cluster and get that 20% per mob bonus.

If you have to go in multiple directions in a fight, throw orbs in one and use refreshing path on the other, and can use Springs to supplement, along with Regeneration. Seems like there are more than enough options, just requires a bit more attention to positioning in the fights.

Honest question. Have you ever been to vHoF HM execute or vCR+2/3 execute?