Intended use of Efficient Purge?

xylena_lazarow

Efficient Purge is not used tactically or skillfully. It is spammed on GCD by one or more high-sustain "purge monkeys" in organized groups. Meanwhile, it is still too costly to provide an "efficient" purge option for build specs that do not have any other access to a reliable purge. Is this how Efficient Purge is designed to be used? Is this what organized PvP should look like, multiple group members whose primary purpose is spamming one ability endlessly?

Efficient purge should be reworked as an inexpensive (3k-ish Magicka) personal purge, with no group effects. This would give all build specs in all combat types (solo, small scale, pug raids) access to a reliable purge, which is necessary counterplay against abilities like Haunting Curse and the reworked Templar Eclipse. Competitive organized raids would have to adapt, but they are the ones in the best position to do so.

Sandman929

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Efficient Purge is not used tactically or skillfully. It is spammed on GCD by one or more high-sustain "purge monkeys" in organized groups. Meanwhile, it is still too costly to provide an "efficient" purge option for build specs that do not have any other access to a reliable purge. Is this how Efficient Purge is designed to be used? Is this what organized PvP should look like, multiple group members whose primary purpose is spamming one ability endlessly?

Efficient purge should be reworked as an inexpensive (3k-ish Magicka) personal purge, with no group effects. This would give all build specs in all combat types (solo, small scale, pug raids) access to a reliable purge, which is necessary counterplay against abilities like Haunting Curse and the reworked Templar Eclipse. Competitive organized raids would have to adapt, but they are the ones in the best position to do so.

Actually, the heal is good enough for Cleanse to be the good group option. Efficient Purge really isn't efficient.

xylena_lazarow

Sandman929 wrote: »

Actually, the heal is good enough for Cleanse to be the good group option. Efficient Purge really isn't efficient.

All the more reason to rework Efficient Purge as a personal purge accessible to all build specs!

Dojohoda

I like your idea; I'm for it.

GrumpyDuckling

DOT builds that don't rely on burst would be useless in PVP.

Sandman929

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

DOT builds that don't rely on burst would be useless in PVP.

Would it really hurt more than now? DOT builds are already disadvantaged if they come across anyone who cares enough to slot Efficient as it exists right now, or has class access to purge.

Nerhesi

You can't make purge useful and efficient in a small scale scenario. You shouldn't.

This has been shown in games like WoW, Rift, DAoC, where you completely eliminate the viable tactic of dot builds, if you suddenly have a "very" efficient purge.

Purge is still going to be very useful, but you can't simply Weave-purge and LA to kill the new meta contender of dot-builds - otherwise what is the point? Everyone will run purge backbar for BGs and small groups and you'll have the group purge still doing super well in large scale.

Then you may as well not try to diversify to make attrition/sustained dps dot builds a thing...

GrumpyDuckling

Sandman929 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

DOT builds that don't rely on burst would be useless in PVP.

Would it really hurt more than now? DOT builds are already disadvantaged if they come across anyone who cares enough to slot Efficient as it exists right now, or has class access to purge.

You answered your own question.

xylena_lazarow

Nerhesi wrote: »

You can't make purge useful and efficient in a small scale scenario. You shouldn't.

Then you would need to delete Cleansing Ritual and Expunge. If purging exists at all in this game, and remains the sole method of counterplay to a number of abilities, then it should be accessible to all build specs and playstyles.

I've run DoT builds for years, and don't see an issue with enemies attempting to counter my DoTs, which are still going to be cheaper than their purge and keep them on the defensive. Revert Efficient Purge to 2 negative effects if necessary.

Iskiab

I say don’t touch it.

Only because purge should fall under the ‘Templar Class Defining Category’ and a cheap one should only be available to them.

If you want a cheap one roll a templar. Otherwise pay through the butt to infringe on their forte.

I want class diversity, same people who want this would cry if Templar’s got cloak or streak lets be honest.

Sandman929

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

DOT builds that don't rely on burst would be useless in PVP.

Would it really hurt more than now? DOT builds are already disadvantaged if they come across anyone who cares enough to slot Efficient as it exists right now, or has class access to purge.

You answered your own question.

I don't think 2k cost difference makes or breaks either side of a fight. Applying DOTs is exactly what the attacker does, and at 3k or 5k the defender isn't going to be able to keep it up forever. DK's do win against Templars sometimes. At least there would be a reasonably priced purge option for those that want to try. Some classes have built in utilities that others don't, and in most cases there's a non-class substitute, but when it comes to purging negative effects the non-class substitute is ridiculously priced because it hits multiple targets.
It doesn't really bother me when I'm on a DOT centric setup because, try as they want, they won't keep up with the purging unless they're doing nothing but.

Sandman929

Iskiab wrote: »

I say don’t touch it.

Only because purge should fall under the ‘Templar Class Defining Category’ and a cheap one should only be available to them.

If you want a cheap one roll a templar. Otherwise pay through the butt to infringe on their forte.

I want class diversity, same people who want this would cry if Templar’s got cloak or streak lets be honest.

In this age of stackable stam shields and universally available AoE fear, it's so hard to recognize the class defining stuff.

Taleof2Cities

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

You can't make purge useful and efficient in a small scale scenario. You shouldn't.

If purging exists at all in this game, and remains the sole method of counterplay to a number of abilities, then it should be accessible to all build specs and playstyles.

Efficient purge is in the Alliance War Support skill line ... so it’s accessible to all build specs and playstyles.

xylena_lazarow

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Efficient purge is in the Alliance War Support skill line ... so it’s accessible to all build specs and playstyles.

It's accessible but not viable in practice for most build specs, due to its cost, which however is not still high enough to prevent "purge monkeys" in organized groups from spamming it every second. This is the worst of both worlds. Not only can pugs not reliably purge, but their options for fighting against organized raids become severely limited, encouraging zerging.

My argument is that Efficient Purge should be a viable personal purge for solos and pugs, while organized raids should be using the other morph Cleanse tactically and skillfully, not brainlessly spamming it nonstop.

Templars will still have the "best" purge and Necros will retain a purge with unique mechanics. If you don't want universal purge access, then get rid of mechanics with no counterplay outside purging.

frostz417

No, enough nerfs to COORDINATED groups that require thumbs. Honestly most people don’t even know exactly what a coordinated group even is. Some of y’all just assume a zerg that takes keeps but has decent movement is a ball group but that is far from it. They all get slumped by real ball groups. Also coordinated ball groups do not exceed the group size of 8-12 if there is any group who has more than 12 people and calls themselves a ball group is a meme. They’re a zerg.

Taleof2Cities

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

If you don't want universal purge access, then get rid of mechanics with no counterplay outside purging.

Except every player has access ... it’s universal.

xylena_lazarow

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Except every player has access ... it’s universal.

Stop being pedantic. Just because you can slot it, doesn't make it viable. Solos and pugs need better purge options. Raids should not have players spamming this every second.

frostz417 wrote: »

No, enough nerfs to COORDINATED groups that require thumbs... if there is any group who has more than 12 people and calls themselves a ball group is a meme. They’re a zerg.

Skilled 12-man groups would be fine using Cleanse with timing and tact. This would mostly nerf the 24-man zergs composed of one-button spammers that claim to be ball groups. They're only "organized" in the sense that they concentrate enough healing and purge spam in one place to force whatever pugs are fighting them to zerg.

It's time to stop rewarding one-button spam.

frostz417

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Except every player has access ... it’s universal.

Stop being pedantic. Just because you can slot it, doesn't make it viable. Solos and pugs need better purge options. Raids should not have players spamming this every second.

frostz417 wrote: »

No, enough nerfs to COORDINATED groups that require thumbs... if there is any group who has more than 12 people and calls themselves a ball group is a meme. They’re a zerg.

Skilled 12-man groups would be fine using Cleanse with timing and tact. This would mostly nerf the 24-man zergs composed of one-button spammers that claim to be ball groups. They're only "organized" in the sense that they concentrate enough healing and purge spam in one place to force whatever pugs are fighting them to zerg.

It's time to stop rewarding one-button spam.

I agree with you. Separating the two would be a good idea. Efficient for another purpose while cleanse can remain useful for ACTUAL coordinated groups.

ecru

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

DOT builds that don't rely on burst would be useless in PVP.

In large group vs group situations they already are because of purge spammers and the ritual synergy. You cannot reliably keep dots or debuffs up against any group with someone spamming purge.

I agree it's completely brainless to spam purge and just hitting a button and removing a bunch of debuffs over and over again with no thought about targeting or basically anything else shouldn't really be rewarded. I don't really agree with how purges work in general because of how much damage they have the potential to mitigate compared to heals and I wouldn't mind seeing them gutted. Right now you can easily hit a purge and mitigate tens of thousands of damage costing opponents tens of thousands of resources to apply and no heal could ever hope to approach that kind of power.

The opportunity cost is clearly out of step with heals and the cost of doing something like applying dots to a target when you consider everything that can be mitigated with a single cast of purge, much less multiple casts. It's one of those abilities in the game that has never really made a lot of sense in it's implementation, but since you don't actually see health bars going up and down or all of the debuffs disappearing off of a raid/group frame like you would in other games, most players don't seem to have any idea just how much is happening with one purge.

Iskiab

Sandman929 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I say don’t touch it.

Only because purge should fall under the ‘Templar Class Defining Category’ and a cheap one should only be available to them.

If you want a cheap one roll a templar. Otherwise pay through the butt to infringe on their forte.

I want class diversity, same people who want this would cry if Templar’s got cloak or streak lets be honest.

In this age of stackable stam shields and universally available AoE fear, it's so hard to recognize the class defining stuff.

I hear ya, so let’s fix that:
NBs - cloak
Sorcs - streak
Templar - ritual and shards
Wardens - bugs and shimmering shield
DKs - fossilize and wings

Everyone has abilities that aren’t ‘fair’ and imbalanced, but the end result is diversity.

ecru

Iskiab wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I say don’t touch it.

Only because purge should fall under the ‘Templar Class Defining Category’ and a cheap one should only be available to them.

If you want a cheap one roll a templar. Otherwise pay through the butt to infringe on their forte.

I want class diversity, same people who want this would cry if Templar’s got cloak or streak lets be honest.

In this age of stackable stam shields and universally available AoE fear, it's so hard to recognize the class defining stuff.

I hear yea, so let’s fix that:
NBs - cloak
Sorcs - streak
Templar - ritual and shards
Wardens - bugs and shimmering shield
DKs - fossilize and wings

Everyone has abilities that aren’t ‘fair’ and imbalanced, but the end result is diversity.

fossilize will be mostly useless in BGs for a stamdk after the patch due to the cost increase, use it twice and you can forget about using fragmented or volatile armor for awhile. i'm sure they know this too, lol.

xylena_lazarow

Iskiab wrote: »

Everyone has abilities that aren’t ‘fair’ and imbalanced, but the end result is diversity.

Is that why endgame PvE raids stack 8 Stamcros? Powerful mechanics that grant a significant competitive advantage should not be restricted to a single class. That leads to homogenization, not diversity. You might as well be arguing that only DKs should be allowed to block.

zParallaxz

Iskiab wrote: »

I say don’t touch it.

Only because purge should fall under the ‘Templar Class Defining Category’ and a cheap one should only be available to them.

If you want a cheap one roll a templar. Otherwise pay through the butt to infringe on their forte.

I want class diversity, same people who want this would cry if Templar’s got cloak or streak lets be honest.

Give em the dk treatment and make cleansing ritual do 50% less damage while active. Just like wings “ CoUnTeRs ALL RaNgE” why should a skill like extended ritual remove most if not all negative effects.
Tbh I don’t want it nerfed because I could care less, but at the same time when dk gets one of their class defining skills nerfed for the same exact logic.....

zParallaxz

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Nerhesi wrote: »

You can't make purge useful and efficient in a small scale scenario. You shouldn't.

If purging exists at all in this game, and remains the sole method of counterplay to a number of abilities, then it should be accessible to all build specs and playstyles.

Efficient purge is in the Alliance War Support skill line ... so it’s accessible to all build specs and playstyles.

Lol you didn’t even understand what he was saying, you just pulled a quote out of context.

zParallaxz

Iskiab wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I say don’t touch it.

Only because purge should fall under the ‘Templar Class Defining Category’ and a cheap one should only be available to them.

If you want a cheap one roll a templar. Otherwise pay through the butt to infringe on their forte.

I want class diversity, same people who want this would cry if Templar’s got cloak or streak lets be honest.

In this age of stackable stam shields and universally available AoE fear, it's so hard to recognize the class defining stuff.

I hear ya, so let’s fix that:
NBs - cloak
Sorcs - streak
Templar - ritual and shards
Wardens - bugs and shimmering shield
DKs - fossilize and wings

Everyone has abilities that aren’t ‘fair’ and imbalanced, but the end result is diversity.

Let’s take a step back. What if Zos nerfed ritual like they did wings and instead make take 50% less damage from dots? It’s still class defining right?

Wing

make efficient way cheaper and single target / caster only

Wuuffyy

zParallaxz wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I say don’t touch it.

Only because purge should fall under the ‘Templar Class Defining Category’ and a cheap one should only be available to them.

If you want a cheap one roll a templar. Otherwise pay through the butt to infringe on their forte.

I want class diversity, same people who want this would cry if Templar’s got cloak or streak lets be honest.

In this age of stackable stam shields and universally available AoE fear, it's so hard to recognize the class defining stuff.

I hear ya, so let’s fix that:
NBs - cloak
Sorcs - streak
Templar - ritual and shards
Wardens - bugs and shimmering shield
DKs - fossilize and wings

Everyone has abilities that aren’t ‘fair’ and imbalanced, but the end result is diversity.

Let’s take a step back. What if Zos nerfed ritual like they did wings and instead make take 50% less damage from dots? It’s still class defining right?

Sounds right. Also let's make cloak work 50% of the time... oh wait.

xylena_lazarow

This is not a thread about Wings or Cloak, nor is it a request to nerf Cleansing Ritual.

Solos and pugs need reliable purge access, especially if ZOS continues to introduce powerful mechanics like the reworked Templar Eclipse that can only be effectively countered by purging. Raid players should not be reduced to one-button spam "purge monkeys" because it's both easier and more effective than using their group purges intelligently. Both of these would be accomplished by converting Efficient Purge into an inexpensive personal purge.

Karm1cOne

Converting efficient purge to a personal purge would push even more of a templar healer only meta for pve. In pvp, this would kill dot builds. I dont feel either is a move in a good direction.

xylena_lazarow

Karm1cOne wrote: »

Converting efficient purge to a personal purge would push even more of a templar healer only meta for pve. In pvp, this would kill dot builds. I dont feel either is a move in a good direction.

"Alliance War" skills should be concerned with PvP first and foremost. If not being able to spam Purge (or Healing Springs) in PvE is an issue, then pressure ZOS to address whatever mechanics require such things, because that's terrible design.

And no, this will not kill DoT builds, because it will still be more expensive to cast than any DoT ability, and it's not like people haven't figured out how to kill Templars.

zParallaxz

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

This is not a thread about Wings or Cloak, nor is it a request to nerf Cleansing Ritual.

Solos and pugs need reliable purge access, especially if ZOS continues to introduce powerful mechanics like the reworked Templar Eclipse that can only be effectively countered by purging. Raid players should not be reduced to one-button spam "purge monkeys" because it's both easier and more effective than using their group purges intelligently. Both of these would be accomplished by converting Efficient Purge into an inexpensive personal purge.

Your correct, it’s not a thread about wings or cloak. It’s about whether Zos should change a skill and make it more available to every user to a point where slotting dots won’t be beneficial (PvP). You probably didn’t know but some classes such as Dk has a passive for sustain that relies on having a status effect, if we introduce a cheap purge to the masses, the already limited passive becomes a “empty” passive. Where the discussion of other abilities like cloak and wings come into play is in a comparison to class identifying skills such as cleaning ritual, this skill being one of the few that has the ability to purge over 2 negative effects is in competition with efficient purge but only available to Templars.