Adjust Major Vulnerability

Nifty2g

Among all the changes I noticed the biggest thing has not been changed, Major Vulnerability is still sticking at 30% it's far too high and a power creep like this when the damage is already high enough just makes it worse long term. It would be nice to see it reduced to 15 - 20% rather than its current 30%.

Itzmichi

Is it stackable? If that's the case they might wanna make it nonstackable. (Haven't played necro much)

Koolio

Major Protection 30%
Major Vitality 30%
Major Maim 30%
Major Defile 30%

Seems like it’s right in line

Nifty2g

Koolio wrote: »

Major Protection 30%
Major Vitality 30%
Major Maim 30%
Major Defile 30%

Seems like it’s right in line

The problem is not that it's in line with the other majors, the problem is just how powerful it is and really should not be 30%.

Deloth_Vyrr

Putting Major Vuln on a class dps ultimate was the mistake. Stamcro being so high on the dps food chain is already gatekeeping other classes. But giving them such a crazy debuff on their ult just encourages pure Stamcro stacking so they can chain ultimates together and get over 45 seconds straight of Major Vuln uptime on bosses.

jypcy

Agreed that the ultimate is overturned, but should change the buff that the ult provides to a unique, non stackable one a la engulfing flames as opposed to changing the established major/minor values.

OrphanHelgen

The problem is a problem, and the solution is a solution

Glory

Koolio wrote: »

Major Protection 30%
Major Vitality 30%
Major Maim 30%
Major Defile 30%

Seems like it’s right in line

Major Fortitude 20%
Major Endurance 20%
Major Intellect 20%
Major Sorcery 20%
Major Brutality 20%
Major Force 15%
Major Mending 25%
Major Evasion 25%

Major Force of particular note.

Deloth_Vyrr

Glory wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

Major Protection 30%
Major Vitality 30%
Major Maim 30%
Major Defile 30%

Seems like it’s right in line

Major Fortitude 20%
Major Endurance 20%
Major Intellect 20%
Major Sorcery 20%
Major Brutality 20%
Major Force 15%
Major Mending 25%
Major Evasion 25%

Major Force of particular note.

Also Major Berserk 25%

I love how he only posted the buffs that support his argument and ignored the far larger list of ones that don't

Kolzki

Koolio wrote: »

Major Protection 30%
Major Vitality 30%
Major Maim 30%
Major Defile 30%

Seems like it’s right in line

Because nobody has ever suggested that any of these are overpowered.

jypcy

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

Major Protection 30%
Major Vitality 30%
Major Maim 30%
Major Defile 30%

Seems like it’s right in line

Major Fortitude 20%
Major Endurance 20%
Major Intellect 20%
Major Sorcery 20%
Major Brutality 20%
Major Force 15%
Major Mending 25%
Major Evasion 25%

Major Force of particular note.

Yeah I love how he only posted the buffs that support his argument and ignored the far larger list of ones that don't

But notably, vulnerability is a counterpart to protection: 8% minor value affecting damage taken, 30% major value affecting damage taken. Other comparisons are superfluous.

Koolio

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

Major Protection 30%
Major Vitality 30%
Major Maim 30%
Major Defile 30%

Seems like it’s right in line

Major Fortitude 20%
Major Endurance 20%
Major Intellect 20%
Major Sorcery 20%
Major Brutality 20%
Major Force 15%
Major Mending 25%
Major Evasion 25%

Major Force of particular note.

Also Major Berserk 25%

I love how he only posted the buffs that support his argument and ignored the far larger list of ones that don't

Those are the direct counters to the debuff he has stated.

Some of them are very common where the direct counter in my eyes is Maim. Only available on the Templar ult for comparison.

Though Protection is directly even as far as % but a lot easier to get.

Recremen

Koolio wrote: »

Major Protection 30%
Major Vitality 30%
Major Maim 30%
Major Defile 30%

Seems like it’s right in line

A better argument is that Major Protection, the counter to Major Vulnerability, has a source which applies it in a large AoE (sleet storm). Thus in PvP situations the buffs have a completely symmetric power level, since one person can apply Major Vulnerability to many people and one person can apply Major Protection to many people. In PvE however it's just favoring necro all the way down, since bosses don't get Major Protection and just have to sit in 30% extra damage on cooldown.

Asmael

Well, I guess it's their take on "every class should bring a unique (de)buff to the raid".

But the main issue is that it is stackable. Imagine if you had 8 stamblades giving each other extra crit chance: 100% critical chance for all DDs, now that would be fun...

That may be balanced if you seriously tweak the numbers, thought I got a feeling it is not going to happen and we'll end up having to sit through stamcro stacking for the next 6-12 months.

Nifty2g

jypcy wrote: »

Agreed that the ultimate is overturned, but should change the buff that the ult provides to a unique, non stackable one a la engulfing flames as opposed to changing the established major/minor values.

It's the only source of Major vulnerability. I do think it is fine to have on an ultimate as it is going to be theoretically harder to obtain but people will just stack the one class because it is the strongest debuff in the game, mind you minor vulnerability was previously one of the strongest debuffs and they made something 4x the strength of it when dps is already far out of control. No good will come of this ultimate being so high and will just further result in nerfs in the future.

Maura_Neysa

Major Vulnerability, should have never been introduced.
How could this NOT lead to Necromancer stacking the deck.
ZoS took the lesson of NOTHING unique to Warden, and over compensated with completely unique and OP AF.

Change Lokkestiiz to Major Vulnerability. Source everyone can access, War Machine/Master Architect become relevant again.

jypcy

Koolio wrote: »

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

Koolio wrote: »

Major Protection 30%
Major Vitality 30%
Major Maim 30%
Major Defile 30%

Seems like it’s right in line

Major Fortitude 20%
Major Endurance 20%
Major Intellect 20%
Major Sorcery 20%
Major Brutality 20%
Major Force 15%
Major Mending 25%
Major Evasion 25%

Major Force of particular note.

Also Major Berserk 25%

I love how he only posted the buffs that support his argument and ignored the far larger list of ones that don't

Those are the direct counters to the debuff he has stated.

Some of them are very common where the direct counter in my eyes is Maim. Only available on the Templar ult for comparison.

Though Protection is directly even as far as % but a lot easier to get.

Really maim is more of a direct counter to berserk, both affecting the damage that a single target does, which is probably the best argument for adjusting vuln values because this other damage-oriented buff/debuff pair doesn’t match. Although imo it’d make more sense to line those up than create another mismatch.

jypcy

Nifty2g wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Agreed that the ultimate is overturned, but should change the buff that the ult provides to a unique, non stackable one a la engulfing flames as opposed to changing the established major/minor values.

It's the only source of Major vulnerability. I do think it is fine to have on an ultimate as it is going to be theoretically harder to obtain but people will just stack the one class because it is the strongest debuff in the game, mind you minor vulnerability was previously one of the strongest debuffs and they made something 4x the strength of it when dps is already far out of control. No good will come of this ultimate being so high and will just further result in nerfs in the future.

Yep, I agree that it’s fine to make an ultimate give a significant debuff like that but make it less significant than its current state. I just think it makes more sense to leave major vuln with its current values and make the atro give a unique, less potent damage taken debuff. Call it Colossal Demolition or something and make it +20% damage taken. Devs can balance the ult without messing with the major/minor buff/debuff system.

Nifty2g

jypcy wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

Agreed that the ultimate is overturned, but should change the buff that the ult provides to a unique, non stackable one a la engulfing flames as opposed to changing the established major/minor values.

It's the only source of Major vulnerability. I do think it is fine to have on an ultimate as it is going to be theoretically harder to obtain but people will just stack the one class because it is the strongest debuff in the game, mind you minor vulnerability was previously one of the strongest debuffs and they made something 4x the strength of it when dps is already far out of control. No good will come of this ultimate being so high and will just further result in nerfs in the future.

Yep, I agree that it’s fine to make an ultimate give a significant debuff like that but make it less significant than its current state. I just think it makes more sense to leave major vuln with its current values and make the atro give a unique, less potent damage taken debuff. Call it Colossal Demolition or something and make it +20% damage taken. Devs can balance the ult without messing with the major/minor buff/debuff system.

Adjusting a value to put something in line when it is so potent is not a bad thing

Gaggin

Maybe let's wait till after the current nerf- heavy patch hits before asking for more nerds? I dont see how this ult is any worse than warhorn.

LiquidPony

Alternatively, what if we got similar utility out of other class DPS ultis? I guess my thought is ... as long as Necros are near the top of the DPS totem pole, that's what everyone is going to use, because their DPS ulti buffs group damage and no other class has that. Even if Major Vulnerability were just 15%, you'd probably still see a 8 stamcro meta.

Storm Atro, Death Stroke, Standard of Might, Radial Sweep, and the Bear ulti could all be modified to provide some group buff or debuff that benefits the group.

For instance, if Greater Storm atro could be synergized by 4 people. Or if Radial Sweep granted Empower to some nearby allies. Or activating the Bear granted Major Force or Major Heroism to allies or something like that. Or even look to unique effects like Death Stroke and Standard have and extend them to allies (like the newly modified Martial Knowledge set).

Edit: and worth considering that the effect doesn't *have* to be tied to an ulti. A few patches ago we got buffs to Minor buffs from each class to encourage greater group comp diversity, but what we end up with there is just pushing all of that responsibility onto support roles so that DPS can go pure DPS. But seeing the new Martial Knowledge 5-piece and the new Z'en's Redress set, it got me thinking that an easy way to reward groups for having a diverse composition is to grant unique DPS effects for the whole group to each class.

Further edit: it would also be interesting to see a split on these effects based on spec. For instance, Soul Harvest and Incap could bring different effects to the table, or put them on Merciless and Relentless. Or even grant them passively based on doing damage with a stamina/magicka ability. That way it's not just beneficial to bring a nightblade to a raid ... it might be beneficial to bring both a stamblade and a magblade. Or something along those lines. Just throwing stuff at the wall at this point, but hey, that's what ZOS does every patch!

caperon

Asmael wrote: »

Well, I guess it's their take on "every class should bring a unique (de)buff to the raid".

But the main issue is that it is stackable. Imagine if you had 8 stamblades giving each other extra crit chance: 100% critical chance for all DDs, now that would be fun...

That may be balanced if you seriously tweak the numbers, thought I got a feeling it is not going to happen and we'll end up having to sit through stamcro stacking for the next 6-12 months.

Im fine with necro giving major vulnerability if when a Dk drops a Standard everyone inside gets the benefit, when a sorc drops an atronarch everyone can use the synergy, when a nb uses incapaciting everyone gets 20% dmg increase on the target and so on.

Thats how op i feel the colossus is.

caperon

LiquidPony wrote: »

Alternatively, what if we got similar utility out of other class DPS ultis? I guess my thought is ... as long as Necros are near the top of the DPS totem pole, that's what everyone is going to use, because their DPS ulti buffs group damage and no other class has that. Even if Major Vulnerability were just 15%, you'd probably still see a 8 stamcro meta.

Storm Atro, Death Stroke, Standard of Might, Radial Sweep, and the Bear ulti could all be modified to provide some group buff or debuff that benefits the group.

For instance, if Greater Storm atro could be synergized by 4 people. Or if Radial Sweep granted Empower to some nearby allies. Or activating the Bear granted Major Force or Major Heroism to allies or something like that. Or even look to unique effects like Death Stroke and Standard have and extend them to allies (like the newly modified Martial Knowledge set).

Damm, i got distracted and you posted the very same idea before i did

Deloth_Vyrr

Gaggin wrote: »

Maybe let's wait till after the current nerf- heavy patch hits before asking for more nerds? I dont see how this ult is any worse than warhorn.

Warhorn can be slotted by any class. Templar Healer, Warden Healer, DK Tank, hell even a NB tank can bring Warhorn.

Major Vuln is exclusive to Necros. This means that it's pushing all other dps classes out of the meta. Sunspire HM progression groups are enforcing 8 Stam Necro group compositions. With proper organization it allows you to chain 8 consecutive Ults on a boss for over 45 seconds of straight uptime on Major Vulnerability. Even outside Sunspire we have all Necro groups melting Rakkat on HM before he reaches the 3rd pad.

Putting aside how completely overpowered this Ultimate is, if it were a generic skill line it would still need nerfing, but since it's a class ultimate it also creates a massive class imbalance, encouraging stacking one single class.

Gaggin

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

Gaggin wrote: »

Maybe let's wait till after the current nerf- heavy patch hits before asking for more nerds? I dont see how this ult is any worse than warhorn.

Warhorn can be slotted by any class. Templar Healer, Warden Healer, DK Tank, hell even a NB tank can bring Warhorn.

Major Vuln is exclusive to Necros. This means that it's pushing all other dps classes out of the meta. Sunspire HM progression groups are enforcing 8 Stam Necro group compositions. With proper organization it allows you to chain 8 consecutive Ults on a boss for over 45 seconds of straight uptime on Major Vulnerability. Even outside Sunspire we have all Necro groups melting Rakkat on HM before he reaches the 3rd pad.

I dont mind people doing pad 3 burns. They're changing a lot dps skills next patch, maybe wait and see how those pan out first.

Deloth_Vyrr

Gaggin wrote: »

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

Gaggin wrote: »

Maybe let's wait till after the current nerf- heavy patch hits before asking for more nerds? I dont see how this ult is any worse than warhorn.

Warhorn can be slotted by any class. Templar Healer, Warden Healer, DK Tank, hell even a NB tank can bring Warhorn.

Major Vuln is exclusive to Necros. This means that it's pushing all other dps classes out of the meta. Sunspire HM progression groups are enforcing 8 Stam Necro group compositions. With proper organization it allows you to chain 8 consecutive Ults on a boss for over 45 seconds of straight uptime on Major Vulnerability. Even outside Sunspire we have all Necro groups melting Rakkat on HM before he reaches the 3rd pad.

I dont mind people doing pad 3 burns. They're changing a lot dps skills next patch, maybe wait and see how those pan out first.

Pad 3 burn is one thing - we may agree or disagree on whether that should even be possible but... a pad 3 burn that can only be achieved by literally stacking 1 class is extremely problematic.

The power gap between a full Stamcro group and any other group composition is so vast, it is creating a massive class imbalance that is gatekeeping other dps classes from high end content.

Nifty2g

Gaggin wrote: »

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

Gaggin wrote: »

Maybe let's wait till after the current nerf- heavy patch hits before asking for more nerds? I dont see how this ult is any worse than warhorn.

Warhorn can be slotted by any class. Templar Healer, Warden Healer, DK Tank, hell even a NB tank can bring Warhorn.

Major Vuln is exclusive to Necros. This means that it's pushing all other dps classes out of the meta. Sunspire HM progression groups are enforcing 8 Stam Necro group compositions. With proper organization it allows you to chain 8 consecutive Ults on a boss for over 45 seconds of straight uptime on Major Vulnerability. Even outside Sunspire we have all Necro groups melting Rakkat on HM before he reaches the 3rd pad.

I dont mind people doing pad 3 burns. They're changing a lot dps skills next patch, maybe wait and see how those pan out first.

You will still be able to get your pad 3 burns.

LiquidPony

Gaggin wrote: »

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

Gaggin wrote: »

Maybe let's wait till after the current nerf- heavy patch hits before asking for more nerds? I dont see how this ult is any worse than warhorn.

Warhorn can be slotted by any class. Templar Healer, Warden Healer, DK Tank, hell even a NB tank can bring Warhorn.

Major Vuln is exclusive to Necros. This means that it's pushing all other dps classes out of the meta. Sunspire HM progression groups are enforcing 8 Stam Necro group compositions. With proper organization it allows you to chain 8 consecutive Ults on a boss for over 45 seconds of straight uptime on Major Vulnerability. Even outside Sunspire we have all Necro groups melting Rakkat on HM before he reaches the 3rd pad.

I dont mind people doing pad 3 burns. They're changing a lot dps skills next patch, maybe wait and see how those pan out first.

I personally don't mind the "power creep" myself. Killing stuff fast is fun.

What I do mind is an 8 stamblade meta that changed to an 8 stamnecro meta from one patch to the next.

I want to competitively raid with my stamden, stamsorc, magden, magblade, etc.

Gaggin

So buff other ults on other classes, I'm tired of casting the same skills on all my toons. Variety is the spice of life.

Gigasax

Until Major Vul or the ult gets ajusted Stamcro will be PVE Meta.

Vercingetorix

Necromancer has nothing going for it except the Major Vulnerability debuff. If you nerf that, the class can be effectively deleted. Instead of crying about dying to a highly telegraphed AoE, how about you not stand in it?

You seem like the type of person who sits in Oil Traps then wonders why you died... I suppose you think we should nerf oil traps, too? lmao