ESO updates: Total misunderstanding

Mitrenga

"Why you keep doing this changes?" To keep the game alive. If you like the content, you just adapt and hunt for new sets, study new rotations etc. But if you are already bored and fed up with the problems in the game, you just take a break and see what happens after the patch.

Sustain - heavy attack gamestyle received a negative feedback during Morrowind phase. I would not say it almost killed the game but it was close. Well, we will have to wait and see I guess.

LoreToo

Mitrenga wrote: »

"Why you keep doing this changes?" To keep the game alive. If you like the content, you just adapt and hunt for new sets, study new rotations etc. But if you are already bored and fed up with the problems in the game, you just take a break and see what happens after the patch.

Sustain - heavy attack gamestyle received a negative feedback during Morrowind phase. I would not say it almost killed the game but it was close. Well, we will have to wait and see I guess.

"To keep the game alive" is kinda bad answer. We killed NBs to keep PvE alive. We duff stamina as hell to keep PvP alive. Ect....
What i realy wanna see is smth like dev notes near each huge change, like:
"We changed shroud dagger because you guys already have 99+ spamable skills, so we desided that we will resork one less used in prev. patch. Now it is a gapcloser. We made it work this way because many stamina users were not able to chase magsorc in pvp(if they are not 2H or nb/sorc), so now you can. Anyway, no1 used it in pve/pvp since widowmaker set resork, so now its good again"
Or
" We changed healing springs because based on our esologs data you have so much freaking overhealing in trials and pvp that it feels like you can spam 1 skillstaying in all aoe sheeeeeet wr made. Now you need to move and avoid mechanics rather then just overheal it"
Or
"We add some healing to fighters guild circle, cause no1 using it right now. In our view any class and spec shoud be able to heal, so this change will help stamina healers in pve/pvp"
And more and more and more......
I guess players need some understanding of main concept, that devs would like to bring into the game. All thst we had yesterday: just patchnotes without any explanation.
Tnx to @ZOS_BrianWheeler for some updates in different topic

mairwen85

I agree transparency is sorely missing, along with communication and active engagement - - ball gagging class reps with NDA. All this serves to put player's backs up with every change as the distance grows wider between player expectation and experience vs developer vision of the game. Motivations behind each change with real reasoning reflective of in game experience would be welcome, instead of seemingly wild swipes at this or that with vague semi-sensical contradictory meandering comments and corny jokes.

Solosus66

jainiadral wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Been playing for awhile now (8 chars ~CP1200) as primarily a solo PvE player. All I know is that it seems each and every patch seems to make my game less fun. Rather than look forward to updates/patches/new content I have learned to dread them.

I've had pretty much a gut full of 'evolving'. To me that typically means moving in directions I don't want to go. For example, a review of the proposed PTS patch changes and my healer first cut on my 'evolve' response is to change her from a healer with a bit of dps into a dps with a bit of class only heals (dump resto staff completely). She would go from a pug healer to a solo dps. Is that the kind of 'evolve and adapt' that is the 'objective/vision' here? My dps characters will 'evolve and adapt' by cutting a number of dungeons from the list of dungeons they are willing to enter. Previous patches have already 'evolved' me to totally ignore all DLC dungeons and all DLC WBs. My 'evolution' path is toward more and more solo only play, and my dungeon progression is moving toward delves instead of DLC dungeons.

Since each update seems to make my game less fun, I am concerned about the logical consequences of that; my ongoing search for a replacement game that is Single Player (no 'balance' drama) open world, massive scale, medieval fantasy rpg intensifies.

Despite a not-so-fun combat system, I've been enjoying myself here. Once you make it past CP 160, there are so many ways you can offset a lot of the kludge, annoyance, and clunkiness either with CP allocation or by easily crafting and upgrading sets the way you like them. A 40% nerf to lightning splash and my pets is going to undo every offset I've made to my sorc. When other classes annoy me, I hop back to her because she's relaxing and fun to explore Tamriel with when I need some down time.

I'll probably survive this pass by the Fun Police, but the CP stuff that's being hinted at might be the end for me in this game.

I too am saddened by the direction of these changes and the sweeping nature of changes so dramatic that will alter the game play. Like yourself, ESO has been great so far, so much diversity is s major plus, but they seem to be. Intent on homogenising skills so in the end we end up completely predictable unfun classes and gameplay.

WeerW3ir

i wonder. do they actually play the game beside pvp? do they experience what they change based upon only NUMBERS?

I WONDER. HAVE THEY EVER DONE A TRIAL BY ONLY THEMSELF WITHOUT HELP FROM THE TWITCH STREAMERS?

Flips

The path is to make changes so players have something to do. Keep us busy changing stuff.

Turelus

idk wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

From what I understood they were taking some heavy swings at things this year (and going forward) to rebuild the base levels of things, however without context of final vision some of the changes seem radical and out of nowhere without any reason.

I would expect heavy changes based on what they said last year and I am pretty sure I get less information that you do.

The link below is where Rob says they are "codifying our vision and long-term strategy for combat." What we are seeing now is the implementation of that. If they actually did a good job and thought all this through then we should see less heavy handed changes with each update as we have for years now.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/445615/combat-update-in-u21-a-new-approach/p1

This is something a good manager, president of Zos, should have done before the game launched. Not 5 years later. We can all hope they thought things through for a change.

Other than the short conversations with Rob and Rich at the London event I don't think I have more info than most. The link you have is the one I was thinking of in what I said regarding the long term plan.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

From what I understood they were taking some heavy swings at things this year (and going forward) to rebuild the base levels of things, however without context of final vision some of the changes seem radical and out of nowhere without any reason.

I've never played any other online game but ESO and one of the motivation I had for trying ESO was to find out how a "neverending game" could work. It's clear to me that constant changing of combat system is just as part of the "neverending aspect" and player retention as expansions are.

How do other games deal with combat changes ? And how do their communities react to them ?

The only other game where I actively followed game balance was EVE Online and that was better communication (Dev blogs, threads for feedback where devs engaged and debated, earlier/longer testing for some changes) however the community response on some issues was about the same as on here. It was just less rude/offensive because the CCP mods where very hardcore.

corpseblade

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't WoW start having difficulties when they tried to "streamline" classes. The classes began to lose individuality and players were NOT happy (especially shaman and hunters).

Also, sometime as far back as perhaps Cataclysm didn't they enrage healers by telling them they were healing wrong and should do it according to the developers' vision instead of what healers found fun? I remember healers quitting our raiding group. (That is also when I started playing other mmos and soon after left WoW completely.)

I mention this because I felt some deja vu when ESO homogenized the races recently and broke lore -- in a game where lore and story is very important (at least to some) and based on a series of single-player games with a huge numbers of fans WHO KNOW THAT LORE. It was dismaying when our lore god left his position. Cue queasy feeling in my stomach.

WoW also constantly adjusted pve values for pvp reasons (annoying), making many pve players feel like their gaming experience was less important and valued. ESO's massive adjustments that affect pve play in favor of pvp are unsettling as well.

I would find it helpful if ESO could tell us for whom they are designing this game. The community is divided at least three or four ways: pvp, end-game pve (maybe include traders here?), and casual pve/rp/housing (my playstyle). It would be really helpful if they could give us the percentages regarding how this is divided numerically.

Then if ESO tells me that pvp numbers are the justification for the way they adjust skills, I could manage my expectations. Otherwise I am getting less secure that I am valued as a customer. I am having problems determining the future of this game or my place in it.

twev

mairwen85 wrote: »

I agree transparency is sorely missing, along with communication and active engagement - - ball gagging class reps with NDA. All this serves to put player's backs up with every change as the distance grows wider between player expectation and experience vs developer vision of the game. Motivations behind each change with real reasoning reflective of in game experience would be welcome, instead of seemingly wild swipes at this or that with vague semi-sensical contradictory meandering comments and corny jokes.

I don't think they can coherently give voice to their expectations, because I think they don't have a coherent plan to voice.

It always feels more like they just throw a deck of cards(skills) in the air and then change the first 5 they randomly pick up.

jainiadral

.

Flips wrote: »

The path is to make changes so players have something to do. Keep us busy changing stuff.

I already have too much to do in this game

lookstwice

Also WoW has admitted to going to far on class pruning/balance and all that.

https://massivelyop.com/2019/06/22/blizzard-on-world-of-warcraft-class-pruning-weve-gone-too-far/

"In last week’s Dev Insights video, Ion Hazzikostas confessed that Blizzard went “too far” on class balance and pruning in the past few expansions. There is clearly some regret over various abilities that were either watered down or removed from the game entirely, and Blizzard may be restoring these in the future, offering more options for hybrid play and stronger class identity."

SirAndy

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Since each update seems to make my game less fun, I am concerned about the logical consequences of that; my ongoing search for a replacement game that is Single Player (no 'balance' drama) open world, massive scale, medieval fantasy rpg intensifies.

@AcadianPaladin

Please let me know if/when you find one ... (i'm serious)

Nemesis7884

i personally support the direction of standardizing skills more as long as you introduce enough stand. (de)buffs to keep classes diverse....

SirAxen

Pretty sure there are developer comments included directly in the patch notes.

LadyLethalla

I basically play this game for VMA. If both trash mobs and bosses are going to be effectively 30% harder to kill, all other nerfs aside - and I'm most certainly not an elite player - that will take 30% longer, and be at minimum 100% more frustrating than it currently is.
And if I'm not playing for VMA, what's left for me? Trials, PVP? Nope, too much lag, too many disconnects. Grinding for gear? What's the point, now? Crafting, repeatable quests and housing? Nope.

As I said in another thread... I want more from this game than those three things. Doing the same **** every day loses its appeal very quickly.

LoreToo

LadyLethalla wrote: »

I basically play this game for VMA. If both trash mobs and bosses are going to be effectively 30% harder to kill, all other nerfs aside - and I'm most certainly not an elite player - that will take 30% longer, and be at minimum 100% more frustrating than it currently is.
And if I'm not playing for VMA, what's left for me? Trials, PVP? Nope, too much lag, too many disconnects. Grinding for gear? What's the point, now? Crafting, repeatable quests and housing? Nope.

As I said in another thread... I want more from this game than those three things. Doing the same **** every day loses its appeal very quickly.

Tbh, pvp is the only way to go right now. Its always different situations where you need to use braincells. PvE is dead since CwC, when dps went too high to skip 80% of trials mechanics and just stay and cosplay target dummy. VMa is same, you just rush thrue the arenas with no damage taking, burning adds as mad. All the changes we have right now do not impsct on dps in pve tremendously

agegarton

Interesting. I have spoken to quite a few people across guilds and so on. The response, in the main, has been: nothing I'm going to get upset about.

Sergykid

LoreToo wrote: »

2)nerf magsorcs

all i wanted to see

LadyLethalla

LoreToo wrote: »

LadyLethalla wrote: »

I basically play this game for VMA. If both trash mobs and bosses are going to be effectively 30% harder to kill, all other nerfs aside - and I'm most certainly not an elite player - that will take 30% longer, and be at minimum 100% more frustrating than it currently is.
And if I'm not playing for VMA, what's left for me? Trials, PVP? Nope, too much lag, too many disconnects. Grinding for gear? What's the point, now? Crafting, repeatable quests and housing? Nope.

As I said in another thread... I want more from this game than those three things. Doing the same **** every day loses its appeal very quickly.

Tbh, pvp is the only way to go right now. Its always different situations where you need to use braincells. PvE is dead since CwC, when dps went too high to skip 80% of trials mechanics and just stay and cosplay target dummy. VMa is same, you just rush thrue the arenas with no damage taking, burning adds as mad. All the changes we have right now do not impsct on dps in pve tremendously

One of the last times I went to PVP, I got disconnected before I reached Nikel, without even seeing another player. Sieges drop to low, low FPS, then no FPS and I have to quit and log back in. Last year's Midyear Mayhem I died on approaching a siege, to a player who hadn't appeared on my screen. So again, PVP isn't an option. Battlegrounds don't interest me either.

max_only

KoultouraS wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

KoultouraS wrote: »

OmniDo wrote: »

I thought I would never say this, but I miss Elitist Jerks from my WoW days. Those folks used to invest enormous amounts of time with math, spreadsheets, and college level analysis of Blizzards game mechanics, much to the constant embarrassment of the developers. Always proving them wrong, incompetent, or inept, simply by doing the science and calling then on their BS.
Eventually, the developers had no choice but to admit their "oversight" and adjust their game accordingly.
A pity ESO has no equivalent within it's community.

Eso has an equivalent within it's community though . The thing is that they are never heard, or rather frequently they are censored.

Or they are hired and assimilated.

OH yeah that too

If you do the analysis and put in the work Zos will find a way to absorb you through paychecks, contracts, and/or NDAs. Thereby removing negative feedback by making the analyzer dependent on Zos for livelihood or held hostage by contract.
It’s brilliant when you look at it.

twev wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

I agree transparency is sorely missing, along with communication and active engagement - - ball gagging class reps with NDA. All this serves to put player's backs up with every change as the distance grows wider between player expectation and experience vs developer vision of the game. Motivations behind each change with real reasoning reflective of in game experience would be welcome, instead of seemingly wild swipes at this or that with vague semi-sensical contradictory meandering comments and corny jokes.

I don't think they can coherently give voice to their expectations, because I think they don't have a coherent plan to voice.

It always feels more like they just throw a deck of cards(skills) in the air and then change the first 5 they randomly pick up.

This. I like to think it’s not random but without any communication how could one think otherwise.

89 pages, and not one simple answer from a dev (not a forum hall monitor) for an issue that doesn’t break anything and in fact restores customer faith and goodwill. It’s almost self sabotage.

barney2525

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

Been playing for awhile now (8 chars ~CP1200) as primarily a solo PvE player. All I know is that it seems each and every patch seems to make my game less fun. Rather than look forward to updates/patches/new content I have learned to dread them.

I've had pretty much a gut full of 'evolving'. To me that typically means moving in directions I don't want to go. For example, a review of the proposed PTS patch changes and my healer first cut on my 'evolve' response is to change her from a healer with a bit of dps into a dps with a bit of class only heals (dump resto staff completely). She would go from a pug healer to a solo dps. Is that the kind of 'evolve and adapt' that is the 'objective/vision' here? My dps characters will 'evolve and adapt' by cutting a number of dungeons from the list of dungeons they are willing to enter. Previous patches have already 'evolved' me to totally ignore all DLC dungeons and all DLC WBs. My 'evolution' path is toward more and more solo only play, and my dungeon progression is moving toward delves instead of DLC dungeons.

Since each update seems to make my game less fun, I am concerned about the logical consequences of that; my ongoing search for a replacement game that is Single Player (no 'balance' drama) open world, massive scale, medieval fantasy rpg intensifies.

I don't get this. How can a patch make a game " Less Fun " ? Sure, maybe it might affect tactics or it might change a few numbers here and there in DPS, or maybe even you might actually start using skills you never used before.

None of this should have Any influence on whether or not a game, overall, is "Fun" .

I also notice you don't clarify the type of game you are looking for - as in PVE or PVP emphasis.

Mr_Walker

KerinKor wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

So after reading netch potes, 15ish discords, 3 forums i have (and i guess 90% of players) only 1 question: "Why you keep doing this changes?".

Simplee answer: Endless moaning about 'OPness' from PVPers.

Seriously, if you look back at most of the large-scale changes they've ALL been attempts to lolbalance PVP .. which no MMO has ever done as far as I know .. by nerfing to Oblivion skill after another, to the huge detriment of the PVE game: prime example being removal of CC such as stuns from Shards, nerfing to the grouund of Rune Cage, etc.

Very, very few 'balance' changes have been driven by PVE considerations .. this game would be hugely better off without PVP.

I like PvP, but this guy's right.

tahol10069

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

From what I understood they were taking some heavy swings at things this year (and going forward) to rebuild the base levels of things, however without context of final vision some of the changes seem radical and out of nowhere without any reason.

I've never played any other online game but ESO and one of the motivation I had for trying ESO was to find out how a "neverending game" could work. It's clear to me that constant changing of combat system is just as part of the "neverending aspect" and player retention as expansions are.

How do other games deal with combat changes ? And how do their communities react to them ?

It is the same with other games. I've played TERA and SWTOR too, both for years so I have some experience of what happens in MMORPG. I've also spent lots of time in two instance-based variants of MMORPG, Skyforge and C9. It is just the same in all these games. Developers make changes trying to balance the game, and players scream and make threats or beg. This is nothing I haven't seen 50 times before, so I'm totally unmoved by it.

Of course developers can make changes that make me leave, and TERA and Skyforge are good ecxamples. They simply casualised the game to the level I couldn't take anymore, and I'm a casual player myself, or something you could call "hard casual" (not a term I invented but fitting I guess). TERA used to be an awesome game at 2014. Now it is a total joke where you can autoattack through the whole levelling process (that is now designed to be steamrolled through as fast as possible), and I'm not exaggerating here. Skyforge went through a total overhaul so they could move the game to consoles. Doing that they probably lost all their old players, and game is now untolerable mobile-game wannabe. Both companies probably knew or at least guessed they will lose most of the hardcore crowd, but counted that the monetary gains from new, very casual players were worth it. I suppose they were right because those games are still alive, not that anyone takes them seriously. You almost never hear anyone even mentioning TERA anymore.

Those were just example of how MUCH the game can change because it is neverending. ESO has done that too, with one Tamriel. Which was for the better imho.

Combat changes are a never ending cycle in MMO's. You have to come to them with the attitude that it WILL happen, and nothing you can do to stop them frm happening. You won't always like them. In every game I've played PVE people blaim PVP for the nerfs. In every game players act like world will end and game is doomed and servers will close during next three months and developers better ready their cardbord boxes as a new life as a hobo awaits.

Combat changes are NOTHING. Be afraid of a total overhaul of the game. One that leaves your former favorite game to be a shell of itself. I have left THREE games because of it. SWTOR is only one I came back to and only because it finally got a new lead who is sane and understands what is best for the game (and people still scream about combat changes and rarely mentions the plethora of awesome changes that have been done resently).

All happening now is normal and expected and will happen again and again. And I don't say it is good, I just say it is what happens in every game.

robertbmilesb14_ESO

corpseblade wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't WoW start having difficulties when they tried to "streamline" classes. The classes began to lose individuality and players were NOT happy (especially shaman and hunters).

Also, sometime as far back as perhaps Cataclysm didn't they enrage healers by telling them they were healing wrong and should do it according to the developers' vision instead of what healers found fun? I remember healers quitting our raiding group. (That is also when I started playing other mmos and soon after left WoW completely.)

I mention this because I felt some deja vu when ESO homogenized the races recently and broke lore -- in a game where lore and story is very important (at least to some) and based on a series of single-player games with a huge numbers of fans WHO KNOW THAT LORE. It was dismaying when our lore god left his position. Cue queasy feeling in my stomach.

WoW also constantly adjusted pve values for pvp reasons (annoying), making many pve players feel like their gaming experience was less important and valued. ESO's massive adjustments that affect pve play in favor of pvp are unsettling as well.

I would find it helpful if ESO could tell us for whom they are designing this game. The community is divided at least three or four ways: pvp, end-game pve (maybe include traders here?), and casual pve/rp/housing (my playstyle). It would be really helpful if they could give us the percentages regarding how this is divided numerically.

Then if ESO tells me that pvp numbers are the justification for the way they adjust skills, I could manage my expectations. Otherwise I am getting less secure that I am valued as a customer. I am having problems determining the future of this game or my place in it.

I agree to a great extent to what you said.

I just think game developers try to make the game more easily accessible to people to help with profit margins which is a good thing. I just think they forget to make sure it's somewhat challenging for people but not too challenging, while keeping the illusion or directly some individuality to the player. That's always the balance that causes the problem in my opinion. ESO has a great boon with their itemization for the latter though.

Also, I have seen it over and again through being an avid MMO player that adjusting for PvE and PvP creates a lot of problems. (One extreme example: disappearance of two MMOs roles, pure support and CCer in PvE)

We'll all see how well that holds out if Pantheon (PvE) comes out and how well Crowfall (PvP) does though.

I do admit to a bias, I don't like PvP.

Elusiin

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

From what I understood they were taking some heavy swings at things this year (and going forward) to rebuild the base levels of things, however without context of final vision some of the changes seem radical and out of nowhere without any reason.

so to say that these changes harsh as they seem now will be balanced with a new "CP" model would not be to far of the mark?

I don't know how a new version of CP system will restore range to my CC abilties, but sure I guess I'll come back to the game when that happens.

Lylith

Eraldus wrote: »

They just want to keep changing stuff periodically, in an attempt to make the game look "fresh" on the outside, while it's still raw on the inside.

As soon as the players will find the new meta, they will start complaining about it, and the cycle of tail chasing continues...

a fair number of players pretty much have the meta by the time the pts goes live, every iteration.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

corpseblade wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't WoW start having difficulties when they tried to "streamline" classes. The classes began to lose individuality and players were NOT happy (especially shaman and hunters).

Also, sometime as far back as perhaps Cataclysm didn't they enrage healers by telling them they were healing wrong and should do it according to the developers' vision instead of what healers found fun? I remember healers quitting our raiding group. (That is also when I started playing other mmos and soon after left WoW completely.)

I mention this because I felt some deja vu when ESO homogenized the races recently and broke lore -- in a game where lore and story is very important (at least to some) and based on a series of single-player games with a huge numbers of fans WHO KNOW THAT LORE. It was dismaying when our lore god left his position. Cue queasy feeling in my stomach.

WoW also constantly adjusted pve values for pvp reasons (annoying), making many pve players feel like their gaming experience was less important and valued. ESO's massive adjustments that affect pve play in favor of pvp are unsettling as well.

I would find it helpful if ESO could tell us for whom they are designing this game. The community is divided at least three or four ways: pvp, end-game pve (maybe include traders here?), and casual pve/rp/housing (my playstyle). It would be really helpful if they could give us the percentages regarding how this is divided numerically.

Then if ESO tells me that pvp numbers are the justification for the way they adjust skills, I could manage my expectations. Otherwise I am getting less secure that I am valued as a customer. I am having problems determining the future of this game or my place in it.

oh right god forbid players who should use brains instead of stacking and spam 1 skill...that's the main issue in this game and mind you I was a healer in WoW for 15 years since launch and I didn't really quit with changed...I adapted, sure most stuff became garbage and in the end I left but not cuz of how the PvE side of the game went but mostly cuz my friends left and I ended up alone...oh also the pvp frostmage buff 3 times hit once kill feral tank druid with 1bil hp in 1 hit was rly fun to watch

barney2525

corpseblade wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't WoW start having difficulties when they tried to "streamline" classes. The classes began to lose individuality and players were NOT happy (especially shaman and hunters).

Also, sometime as far back as perhaps Cataclysm didn't they enrage healers by telling them they were healing wrong and should do it according to the developers' vision instead of what healers found fun? I remember healers quitting our raiding group. (That is also when I started playing other mmos and soon after left WoW completely.)

I mention this because I felt some deja vu when ESO homogenized the races recently and broke lore -- in a game where lore and story is very important (at least to some) and based on a series of single-player games with a huge numbers of fans WHO KNOW THAT LORE. It was dismaying when our lore god left his position. Cue queasy feeling in my stomach.

WoW also constantly adjusted pve values for pvp reasons (annoying), making many pve players feel like their gaming experience was less important and valued. ESO's massive adjustments that affect pve play in favor of pvp are unsettling as well.

I would find it helpful if ESO could tell us for whom they are designing this game. The community is divided at least three or four ways: pvp, end-game pve (maybe include traders here?), and casual pve/rp/housing (my playstyle). It would be really helpful if they could give us the percentages regarding how this is divided numerically.

Then if ESO tells me that pvp numbers are the justification for the way they adjust skills, I could manage my expectations. Otherwise I am getting less secure that I am valued as a customer. I am having problems determining the future of this game or my place in it.

Correcting!!

Oh, wait.... you said to correct you IF you were wrong...

oops

nevermind

max_only

tahol10069 wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

From what I understood they were taking some heavy swings at things this year (and going forward) to rebuild the base levels of things, however without context of final vision some of the changes seem radical and out of nowhere without any reason.

I've never played any other online game but ESO and one of the motivation I had for trying ESO was to find out how a "neverending game" could work. It's clear to me that constant changing of combat system is just as part of the "neverending aspect" and player retention as expansions are.

How do other games deal with combat changes ? And how do their communities react to them ?

It is the same with other games. I've played TERA and SWTOR too, both for years so I have some experience of what happens in MMORPG. I've also spent lots of time in two instance-based variants of MMORPG, Skyforge and C9. It is just the same in all these games. Developers make changes trying to balance the game, and players scream and make threats or beg. This is nothing I haven't seen 50 times before, so I'm totally unmoved by it.

Of course developers can make changes that make me leave, and TERA and Skyforge are good ecxamples. They simply casualised the game to the level I couldn't take anymore, and I'm a casual player myself, or something you could call "hard casual" (not a term I invented but fitting I guess). TERA used to be an awesome game at 2014. Now it is a total joke where you can autoattack through the whole levelling process (that is now designed to be steamrolled through as fast as possible), and I'm not exaggerating here. Skyforge went through a total overhaul so they could move the game to consoles. Doing that they probably lost all their old players, and game is now untolerable mobile-game wannabe. Both companies probably knew or at least guessed they will lose most of the hardcore crowd, but counted that the monetary gains from new, very casual players were worth it. I suppose they were right because those games are still alive, not that anyone takes them seriously. You almost never hear anyone even mentioning TERA anymore.

Those were just example of how MUCH the game can change because it is neverending. ESO has done that too, with one Tamriel. Which was for the better imho.

Combat changes are a never ending cycle in MMO's. You have to come to them with the attitude that it WILL happen, and nothing you can do to stop them frm happening. You won't always like them. In every game I've played PVE people blaim PVP for the nerfs. In every game players act like world will end and game is doomed and servers will close during next three months and developers better ready their cardbord boxes as a new life as a hobo awaits.

Combat changes are NOTHING. Be afraid of a total overhaul of the game. One that leaves your former favorite game to be a shell of itself. I have left THREE games because of it. SWTOR is only one I came back to and only because it finally got a new lead who is sane and understands what is best for the game (and people still scream about combat changes and rarely mentions the plethora of awesome changes that have been done resently).

All happening now is normal and expected and will happen again and again. And I don't say it is good, I just say it is what happens in every game.

I agree with you except

The Elder Scrolls is not their IP.

You cant rewrite an established IP for pvp combat balance reasons

Hobbits are not suddenly more magically powerful wizards than Elves. Vulcans are not suddenly 3rd place in intellect.

If this was their own little world that didn’t exist for 10-25 years before they were hired then do what ever you like, even something as dumb as introduce a panda race into this game.

They have a 100% obligation to explain the changes they make when it changes the fundamental nature of the universe. I agree Moving points and percentages around combat changes is not worth getting worked up about.

All my feedback comes from “if I tell my friend who loves TES from previous games about ESO, but who doesn’t play ESO, it better make sense.” I also run it by a friend who is into fantasy genre but not necessarily TES. If it stops making sense then they are obligated to give an explanation.

OrdoHermetica

max_only wrote: »

I agree with you except

The Elder Scrolls is not their IP.

They're a wholly owned child organization of the company who does own the IP. They can most certainly do whatever they please with it, because they are most definitely doing so with the direct oversight and approval of their parent company. It'd be a different story if they were a third-party studio doing work on a separate existing franchise (i.e. BioWare and KOTOR), but in this case... that's not really a meaningful distinction. For all intents and purposes, ESO is an in-house project, just like YouTube original content is realistically in-house for Google, even though technically they're different companies.