There goes the neighborhood - Theory crafting for next patch

vonknobby

There's not much they're not changing for next patch. I know it's impossible to know, until we get hands on.

But in your opinion, where do you see the pecking order, following the plethora of nerfs coming Monday?

What changes are you going to be working on?

I personally will be looking at re focusing on my Stamina characters and I have been working on my Magplar, which seems like it will still be good (for dps) after patch.

vonknobby

For reference:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/483597/pts-patch-notes-v5-1-0

Abhaya

I'm honestly really excited to test the stamina weapon changes. My medium build and all of the sets I use are pretty much untouched unlike heavy armor and both shuffle morphs got a huge buff. I'll have to swap sword and board for something else but I never particularly liked using it as an attack bar anyways. I'm very interested in trying the new onslaught.

vonknobby

Abhaya wrote: »

I'm honestly really excited to test the stamina weapon changes. My medium build and all of the sets I use are pretty much untouched unlike heavy armor and both shuffle morphs got a huge buff. I'll have to swap sword and board for something else but I never particularly liked using it as an attack bar anyways. I'm very interested in trying the new onslaught.

Master Dual wield back bar and 2h main bar sounds like fun now with some of the bleed changes. Not to mention Dizzy got a small buff on top of the executioner buff.

Nerhesi

I was literally just complaining about the homogenous nature of high end pvp and I think they... perhaps... have made attrition magicka dot builds viable? Soul trap/Destructive reach/entropy/necro...

I dont know. Maybe nothing will change and it will just be a different flavour/gear set for setup/cc/burst... but hopefully not!

wheem_ESO

My initial gut reactions are:
1) Some Magicka setups (Necromancer especially, which is already hands down the worst PvP class in the game) are going to be hurting in the CC department.

2) Non-DK Magicka builds may actually have viable DOT setups now, which I think is potentially really great.

3) Bleed builds with the ability to ignore resists via ultimates might end up being pretty overpowered, though perhaps this warrants a change to those ultimates (Corrosive Armor and 2h Ult) moreso than the changed around bleeds themselves.

4) S&B changes look amazing - Heroic Slash and Reverberating Bash have both been begging for nerfs for quite some time. That weapon line no more deserves to be viable for a dedicated damage bar than Resto Staff does.

5) Magicka Necromancer will probably still be hot garbage. It's cool that they're hopefully going to improve the Blastbones somewhat, but it'll almost certainly still have pathing issues, and be 100% unable to do anything to a target that's moving away from the caster (even if they're not using Streak, Major Expedition, etc...)

I also doubt that either tether will be worth slotting in high MMR BGs, even though they'll be free casts. The tether will still break if LOS or Range interferes, or a targeted player respawns, and the resource return on Mystic Siphon is being cut by more than half. Even with a full, 12 second duration tether, it'll return around 1.2k - 1.6k magicka (for reference, this is in the ballpark of half the return of a Templar's Rune over the same 12 second duration...and while their Rune has a small Magicka cost, it also provides Major Resists, doesn't require targeting a corpse, and can't be LOS'd).

The Skeletal Mage (don't morph it, bros, every Stam build is going to be running Major Evasion next patch, if they aren't already) is getting a big increase to both the cost and damage, but you still won't be able to select its target. This might actually make DOT builds fairly strong on a Necromancer - fitting with what almost everyone thinks of when they hear the name - but picking out particular targets to kill will still be a big issue.

6) Changes to some of the offensively-oriented Heavy Armor sets are very much warranted, but they need to rethink the changes to Veiled Heritance (and I'm not only saying that because I bought some of the Jewelry < 24 hours before the patch notes came out). There just aren't going to be very many times that the 5 piece bonus is going to be active in either PvP or PvE, and I don't see anyone ever using that set if it goes live as they've listed it.

jaws343

The mag nightblade dot build potential is strong. With reach, cripple, and entropy, a lot of damage potential.

wheem_ESO

jaws343 wrote: »

The mag nightblade dot build potential is strong. With reach, cripple, and entropy, a lot of damage potential.

Don't forget Soul Trap, which might actually have decent damage numbers after the changes. Magblade will also still have solid CC via Fear, but bar space may be a problem.

NuarBlack

A lot to take in.

I'm worried it's going to be a stealth buff to bleed builds based on the sets introduced and changes to onslaught ulti. 2h/DW could be nasty.

The clench change misses the mark. I'm not sure anyone felt it was over performing in any way. They should have just removed the initial damage and improved the dot aspect. Having to get that close if you want to run it for the dot will hurt its usefulness in both pvp and pve. Classes without a cc will still just run reach for the utility, so as much as id like to see magicka dot builds be viable I'm not seeing it very likely.

No buff to flame/poison skull. The ability hits like a wet noodle even on its 3rd cast. So with the unreliability of blast bones necro still remains atrocious. Both stam and magicka probably will rely on weapon skills still.

I see the fury/7th meta just switching to fury/ravager. Use puncture and block to build up to power slam utlti combos. Perhaps less annoying than heroic strike bash spam but I see the adaptation is there still.

Did I miss the nerf to bone goliath bash spam ulti?

Medium armor builds do appear to have gotten a buff. Just not sure how to slot shuffle now that I have pushed my builds away from it. But I'll figure it out. Blade cloak got a stealth buff I think so that makes the decision harder.

Veiled heritance change makes no sense. They should have learned that it wouldn't based on sets like truth and flanking strategist but this one is even worse. Isn't there a set the heals or something based the same condition that is completely irrelevant already?

NuarBlack

Oh and a nerf to magden. The only mag class even close to being viable as a dps like magsorc. It's slight though, maybe 3-4% dmage loss on the dps bar and maybe swarm will be worth slotting and make up for it.

ZarkingFrued

Just trying to figure out how bad the shield nerfs will be on my sorc mixed with damage loss to my master staff clench and the lame flying harpy alien. Just annoyed that I finished my current build last night XD. Gonna need some way to buff my shields up without losing much in terms of damage or RIP lol.
Main concern being with my magicka warden, shock clench stun loss destroys my build entirely. Anyone have any ideas for magden if this goes live as is?

NuarBlack

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Just trying to figure out how bad the shield nerfs will be on my sorc mixed with damage loss to my master staff clench and the lame flying harpy alien. Just annoyed that I finished my current build last night XD. Gonna need some way to buff my shields up without losing much in terms of damage or RIP lol.
Main concern being with my magicka warden, shock clench stun loss destroys my build entirely. Anyone have any ideas for magden if this goes live as is?

Same. But the class stun was buffed last patch I think so I've been experimenting with it with decent success. The trick is now to get swarm on my bars to see if it helps make up for the lost pressure of clench and the passive nerf magden is getting.

jaws343

wheem_ESO wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

The mag nightblade dot build potential is strong. With reach, cripple, and entropy, a lot of damage potential.

Don't forget Soul Trap, which might actually have decent damage numbers after the changes. Magblade will also still have solid CC via Fear, but bar space may be a problem.

Oh good call there. Soul trap is a good fit. Tie that new set, zens redress, into the build and it could be pretty potent. You almost don't even need a spammable, but I think bar space could be ok. Back bar two dots, entropy, soul trap, combat prayer, leaching, and the shade. Front bar cripple, fear, cloak, flame reach, and the bow. Dawnbreaker ult for the dot in the front bar and restro ult back.

Lokey0024

Sorcs might have to put points into bastion now *gasp*

jediodyn_ESO

Werewolves got castrated. WW pets needed a nerf, but berserker (black) WW is going to suck with a huge cost increase + a huge damage nerf.

“Balancing” werewolves without taking into consideration that in WW form you don’t get an ultimate, you don’t get weapon skill bonuses, and you only get one skill bar + you must keep your form up (have to play super aggressive) AND you have to stop to feed.... oh yeah, and it is an ultimate so you can’t just slap it on a skill slot like vamps can (who got buffed btw)

The only people playing Werewolf after this patch will be the roleplayers.

GG ZOS. You’re terrible at balancing and seem ignorant to your own game.

wheem_ESO

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Werewolves got castrated. WW pets needed a nerf, but berserker (black) WW is going to suck with a huge cost increase + a huge damage nerf.

“Balancing” werewolves without taking into consideration that in WW form you don’t get an ultimate, you don’t get weapon skill bonuses, and you only get one skill bar + you must keep your form up (have to play super aggressive) AND you have to stop to feed.... oh yeah, and it is an ultimate so you can’t just slap it on a skill slot like vamps can (who got buffed btw)

The only people playing Werewolf after this patch will be the roleplayers.

GG ZOS. You’re terrible at balancing and seem ignorant to your own game.

The Vampire ultimate got buffed I suppose, but almost no one uses it right now. That might change, but you'll still be taking +25% fire damage and +20% Dawnbreaker damage, even if you don't use the ultimate. And my understanding of the Mist Form changes are that it's a bit cheaper, but will no longer be able to be used as a source of Major Expedition when canceled with a block or bar swap.

Kartalin

wheem_ESO wrote: »

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Werewolves got castrated. WW pets needed a nerf, but berserker (black) WW is going to suck with a huge cost increase + a huge damage nerf.

“Balancing” werewolves without taking into consideration that in WW form you don’t get an ultimate, you don’t get weapon skill bonuses, and you only get one skill bar + you must keep your form up (have to play super aggressive) AND you have to stop to feed.... oh yeah, and it is an ultimate so you can’t just slap it on a skill slot like vamps can (who got buffed btw)

The only people playing Werewolf after this patch will be the roleplayers.

GG ZOS. You’re terrible at balancing and seem ignorant to your own game.

The Vampire ultimate got buffed I suppose, but almost no one uses it right now. That might change, but you'll still be taking +25% fire damage and +20% Dawnbreaker damage, even if you don't use the ultimate. And my understanding of the Mist Form changes are that it's a bit cheaper, but will no longer be able to be used as a source of Major Expedition when canceled with a block or bar swap.

No longer being able to ani cancel elusive mist for major expedition is definitely a big nerf. But yeah most just aren’t vampires anymore as it is, and the remaining holdouts may decide that’s enough to finally change back and just use RAT. I’ve already done this on multiple characters.

jaws343

wheem_ESO wrote: »

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Werewolves got castrated. WW pets needed a nerf, but berserker (black) WW is going to suck with a huge cost increase + a huge damage nerf.

“Balancing” werewolves without taking into consideration that in WW form you don’t get an ultimate, you don’t get weapon skill bonuses, and you only get one skill bar + you must keep your form up (have to play super aggressive) AND you have to stop to feed.... oh yeah, and it is an ultimate so you can’t just slap it on a skill slot like vamps can (who got buffed btw)

The only people playing Werewolf after this patch will be the roleplayers.

GG ZOS. You’re terrible at balancing and seem ignorant to your own game.

The Vampire ultimate got buffed I suppose, but almost no one uses it right now. That might change, but you'll still be taking +25% fire damage and +20% Dawnbreaker damage, even if you don't use the ultimate. And my understanding of the Mist Form changes are that it's a bit cheaper, but will no longer be able to be used as a source of Major Expedition when canceled with a block or bar swap.

I still run vamp on my magplar and I like having the option of using bats as an ultimate. Lots of aoe damage.

msalvia

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Werewolves got castrated. WW pets needed a nerf, but berserker (black) WW is going to suck with a huge cost increase + a huge damage nerf.

“Balancing” werewolves without taking into consideration that in WW form you don’t get an ultimate, you don’t get weapon skill bonuses, and you only get one skill bar + you must keep your form up (have to play super aggressive) AND you have to stop to feed.... oh yeah, and it is an ultimate so you can’t just slap it on a skill slot like vamps can (who got buffed btw)

The only people playing Werewolf after this patch will be the roleplayers.

GG ZOS. You’re terrible at balancing and seem ignorant to your own game.

Literally my favorite thing about this patch! Crappy playstyles deserve crappy dps.

LeHarrt91

Im interested to see how Elemental Succession performs on a frost build.

This with Force Shock and Touch damage increase and maybe even paired with Winterborn.

Aedaryl

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Sorcs might have to put points into bastion now *gasp*

Hardened ward got nerfed by 20% in Elsweyr resulting in sorc putting points into bastion.

An other Hardened ward 9% nerf + 800 cost increase just make no sense since Hardened was not overperforming at all.

Emma_Overload

Oblivion's Foe = BIS for all specs.

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Oblivion's+Foe+Set

FearlessOne_2014

Aedaryl wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Sorcs might have to put points into bastion now *gasp*

Hardened ward got nerfed by 20% in Elsweyr resulting in sorc putting points into bastion.

An other Hardened ward 9% nerf + 800 cost increase just make no sense since Hardened was not overperforming at all.

It makes absolute sense. ZOS has been continuously pushing Mage Specs, off the competitive table for the past 2 years.

In my eyes ZOS sees Stamina Specs as the Competitive Specs. And ZOS sees Magicka Specs as just specs for players to roleplay with. As they get crushed by their far superior Stamina Specs. It's a simple as that!

wheem_ESO

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Oblivion's Foe = BIS for all specs.

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Oblivion's+Foe+Set

Hah, that's currently so obscure and worthless that I wouldn't be surprised if ZOS overlooked it for this patch. I'm not sure what the exact numbers on Soul Trap are going to end up being, but it'd be funny if that set actually became worthwhile.

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Aedaryl wrote: »

Lokey0024 wrote: »

Sorcs might have to put points into bastion now *gasp*

Hardened ward got nerfed by 20% in Elsweyr resulting in sorc putting points into bastion.

An other Hardened ward 9% nerf + 800 cost increase just make no sense since Hardened was not overperforming at all.

It makes absolute sense. ZOS has been continuously pushing Mage Specs, off the competitive table for the past 2 years.

In my eyes ZOS sees Stamina Specs as the Competitive Specs. And ZOS sees Magicka Specs as just specs for players to roleplay with. As they get crushed by their far superior Stamina Specs. It's a simple as that!

I agree that Stamina has generally been superior to Magicka for a very long time now, but it's too early to say whether 5.1 will change that to any significant degree. It'll probably be a while before the patch actually makes its way to the live servers, and a number of things could change between now and then.

e-rwan

I'm curious to see what we can do of ravager the way it is now. is it still interesting for pvp?
and what about pve?

PapaWeeb

Kartalin wrote: »

No longer being able to ani cancel elusive mist for major expedition is definitely a big nerf. But yeah most just aren’t vampires anymore as it is, and the remaining holdouts may decide that’s enough to finally change back and just use RAT. I’ve already done this on multiple characters.

I HATE that they're changing expedition from mist. It's already a rarely used, expensive skill. Race against time is better in almost every way

ZarkingFrued

NuarBlack wrote: »

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

Just trying to figure out how bad the shield nerfs will be on my sorc mixed with damage loss to my master staff clench and the lame flying harpy alien. Just annoyed that I finished my current build last night XD. Gonna need some way to buff my shields up without losing much in terms of damage or RIP lol.
Main concern being with my magicka warden, shock clench stun loss destroys my build entirely. Anyone have any ideas for magden if this goes live as is?

Same. But the class stun was buffed last patch I think so I've been experimenting with it with decent success. The trick is now to get swarm on my bars to see if it helps make up for the lost pressure of clench and the passive nerf magden is getting.

issue is that now having to slot the stun separate just complicates the build and rotation. Wont be to bad when I remember my stun is seperate. Also the dampen nerfs suck for magden as well.

ZarkingFrued

msalvia wrote: »

jediodyn_ESO wrote: »

Werewolves got castrated. WW pets needed a nerf, but berserker (black) WW is going to suck with a huge cost increase + a huge damage nerf.

“Balancing” werewolves without taking into consideration that in WW form you don’t get an ultimate, you don’t get weapon skill bonuses, and you only get one skill bar + you must keep your form up (have to play super aggressive) AND you have to stop to feed.... oh yeah, and it is an ultimate so you can’t just slap it on a skill slot like vamps can (who got buffed btw)

The only people playing Werewolf after this patch will be the roleplayers.

GG ZOS. You’re terrible at balancing and seem ignorant to your own game.

Literally my favorite thing about this patch! Crappy playstyles deserve crappy dps.

I'll take the nerfs if pet stacking sorcs, and pet werewolves are gone. Idc. I'll play whatever class is playable lol

katorga

my take so far:

So many changes at one time is going to be a nightmare. I'm not sure why they can't avoid radically changing the game every 6 months, other than drive crown store revenue from skilling up alts. Looks like a stam meta patch.

Sources of healing debuffs going down. Value of major mending/vigor going up.

Shields nerfed, so value block/dodge going up.

Bleeds nerfed and buffed at same time, combined with DK ultimate or 2H ultimate, they will drive up value of major/minor protection.

StamDK is going to be #1, Stamden/StamNB tied for #2, Stam Sorc #2, dark horse stam necro #3. MagNB might be only decent mag class.

All stam getting easy access to snare immunity, major expedition, major evasion, and major fracture.

StamDK - easy to see. Same as before with even more healing and dot pressure, access to high health regen. Best offensive/defensive ult for next patch.
Stam Sorc - 15-6% damage done, speed, aoe unblockable CC, major vitality from encase, access to high health regen.
Stam Necro - 10% increased dot damage, 10% dot dmg reduction, 10% all damage reduction, easy access to major protection, purge, probably the highest possible raw damage mitigation when facing 2H ultimate or Corrosive.

jaws343

The Martial Knowledge changes look decent too. Could pair really well with the new dot set.

katorga

Shocking Siphon:
• This ability and its morphs will now update their hitboxes when fighting large enemies.
• These abilities no longer have a resource cost, and now scale off your highest offensive stats.

Let me get this straight. Detonating siphon is FREE now even though it returns no resource? (It kind of makes sense considering how awful the tethers are to use. )

And they nerfed the resource return instead of normalizing it with the other classes's skills?