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So We're Nerfing Werewolves Into Oblivion?
Shayu
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So let me get this straight. You're shaving 17% off of WW light attack initial damage, and then removing the bleed damage wholesale from Pack Leader on top of that? So around about a 40% reduction in werewolf sustained damage? And then through cost increases and healing reduction you're gutting Werewolf heals by 45%? And no buffs of any kind to balance any of this out? Do we have to go back to werewolves being a non-threat? 
Come on man you even said in your patch notes they were supposed to be threatening, how do you conceive of this as still being in a usable state?
Come on man you even said in your patch notes they were supposed to be threatening, how do you conceive of this as still being in a usable state?
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Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The nerf to the heal is 100% justified. It carries bad werewolf players in pvp who stacks 40k+ HP and don't have to worry about any other kind of survivability.11 -
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Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Keep in mind that a lot of stuff is changing, not just werewolves. The relative power of the wolf compared to the rest of the game world will be affected by more than just the WW changes alone.5 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So... I have a 3 questions...
Question 1:
Who will use Pack Leader morph mext update ? And I dont ask even in what type of content. I mean who will use it at ALL ?
- Untargetable pets means that off-tanking dmg pets are gone. No more use case in Solo PvE.
- Lack of dmg, bleed dmg & heavy attack splash dmg, means that it is gone from DPS role too.
- Also gone from PvP as this morph was mainly use to cheese the dmg mitigation by taking advantage of ppl accidental targeting pets.
Question 2:
Is there any type of content in ESO (except RP / ERP uh.. yuck) that Pack Leader morph can be used at ?
Question 3:
Do you think that Adding taunt to Pack Leader morph heavy attacks would save it (since dmg, bleed dmg and heavy attack area damage is now gone) ?Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on July 7, 2019 10:52AM1 -
sly007✭✭✭✭Pack leader should gain recieve major projection when below 25% health. The rest of the nerfs are justified. Nobody used berserker because pack leader was over preforming.0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pack leader should gain recieve major projection when below 25% health. The rest of the nerfs are justified. Nobody used berserker because pack leader was over preforming.
Berserker has always been the superior morph in PvP (aside from a short time in Murkmire where the enchant fiesta where all over the place)
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Keep in mind that a lot of stuff is changing, not just werewolves. The relative power of the wolf compared to the rest of the game world will be affected by more than just the WW changes alone.
that is very true and the other dead classes have my sympathies, but you are right, I disagree with the mentality of the way Zos are "balancing" the game, instead of improving the problems they make more so everything is bad....
and sorry if my posts come off as too ranty, but well.....it should be obvious to Zos that these "balancing" patches just don't help.....but make things worse
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Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Looking at current PTS Pack leader.... I think... I think that they should do what ppl were asking for a long time.
Add a Taunt to Pack Leader Heavy attack.
Also, ZOS stated that Pack Leader will be a Utility morph and Werewolf Berserker will be a raw DPS morph.
Again, more reasons to add taunt.
This is imho the one way to save this morph from extinctions. Because lets annualize it:
- It now has lower dmg
- Lack of Bleed dmg
- Lack of AOE dmg on heavy attacks.
- Pets are untargetable, meaning that they wont be able to tank DMG in Solo PvE (which is the most common scenario this morph is used).
What it gained: Pets will apply:
- Gnash attack now applies Minor Maim to enemies hit for 4 seconds.
- Lunge attack will now snare enemies hit by 30% for 4 seconds.
However, those are pets that apply it. We all know how unreliable pets are in this game. Most of the time they are derpy. They may or may not attack certain target. Add to this the fact that Bosses are immune to snares and what you will end up with is a close-to-nothing single target de-buff.
I think the problem with Pack Leader is that ZOS states it is supposed to offer utility, but what it offers is simply too little, too random, too unreliable (pet commands & stuff) and narrow. I simply can not think of content or scenario or situation where this utility could be of any use.
Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on July 7, 2019 1:45PM0 -
Shayu✭✭✭The bleed should not have been removed period. It isn't necessary to try and widen the DPS gap between Pack leader and Berserker any further considering pet damage was nerfed, and Berserker received a bleed damage buff to boot.
I'll admit I play Pack Leader for role-playing purposes (the appearance), and that I probably could suck it up and forsake character customization for an ugly berserker wolf, but Pack Leader shouldn't be totally screwed out of PvP.1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
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With those changes Pack Leader will be screwed out of... every content ? Both PvP & PvE.Pack Leader shouldn't be totally screwed out of PvP.
- It wont be picked for Solo PvE (untargetable pets wont be able to tank dmg).
- It wont be picked for PvE DPS, (it will do very little dmg. Berserker is already superior at that and on top of that it is getting dmg buff).
- It wont be picked for PvP (again, lack of bleed dmg & dmg in general and untargetable pets that will not provide any dmg mitigation, which is why it was picked for certain scenarios in PvP).
Like you said, I also can not think of any use case for this morph.1 -
Shayu✭✭✭ADAPT OR DIE
I mean you can beat your chest if you want. WW Pack Leader is dead, there's nothing to adapt to. I don't play ESO PvP so I can be good at ESO PvP, I play ESO PvP because I liked ESO Werewolf PvP.
I'll quit and go back to the game I'm objectively good at if Werewolf is getting nerfed into the ground.0 -
cheifsoap✭✭✭✭✭The nerf to the heal is 100% justified. It carries bad werewolf players in pvp who stacks 40k+ HP and don't have to worry about any other kind of survivability.
You must be talking about pug bgs because in organized bgs the WW gets focused down so fast it doesn’t have time to heal or someone tosses a defile on the WW and the heal is worthless. Something tells me you have no idea what you’re talking about2 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Improvise, Adapt, Overcome.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA1 -
Shayu✭✭✭The nerf to the heal is 100% justified. It carries bad werewolf players in pvp who stacks 40k+ HP and don't have to worry about any other kind of survivability.
You must be talking about pug bgs because in organized bgs the WW gets focused down so fast it doesn’t have time to heal or someone tosses a defile on the WW and the heal is worthless. Something tells me you have no idea what you’re talking about
A smaller cost increase or a the healing nerf might have been warrented in isolation. But the cost increase was huge and they nerfed the healing at the same time.
ZOS is balancing using an on-paper strategy rather than by tuning the numbers and watching the results. In other words we're F***ed.Edited by Shayu on July 7, 2019 3:07PM0 -
Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The nerf to the heal is 100% justified. It carries bad werewolf players in pvp who stacks 40k+ HP and don't have to worry about any other kind of survivability.
You must be talking about pug bgs because in organized bgs the WW gets focused down so fast it doesn’t have time to heal or someone tosses a defile on the WW and the heal is worthless. Something tells me you have no idea what you’re talking about
L
M
A
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Werewolf´s get focused down fast because they´re a big threat if not taken care of (at least the ones who know what they´re doing). And werewolfs in high MMR games are less useful because they can´t support their group members with anything other than damage and stuns .Any other non-werewolf class has ways to heal or give other kinds of supportive features to a group (which is important in high MMR games) which a werewolf simply doesn´t bring to the table.
I main werewolf in PvP since 2+ years and you´ve to be living under a rock to fail to see how the heal isn´t overperforming. Get 30k+ HP ain´t hard even in No-CP and once you do, the heal will start healing for around 10k+ (depending on buffs/debuffs that are available to you). And you don´t sacrifice much damage on a werewolf even with a high HP pool.
Anyone getting focused in a high MMR BG will get killed fast enough without a healer. The key competent here Do you´ve a healer with you or not?, and it doesn´t matter if you´re a werewolf or not. The werewolf heal is one of the most powerful selfheals in the game. The only difference now is that you´ve to invest significantly more into magicka sustain to utilize it better.Lord_Eomer wrote: »
I would say it´s the complete opposite. Many of the passives from certain CP-allocations are more or less essential for werewolfs and the absence of some of them are very noticeable in no-cp
TL:DR = The good werewolfs will overcome these changes, and the ones getting carried by high HP builds and abusing LoS with pack-leader will have to L2P.
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Shayu✭✭✭The nerf to the heal is 100% justified. It carries bad werewolf players in pvp who stacks 40k+ HP and don't have to worry about any other kind of survivability.
You must be talking about pug bgs because in organized bgs the WW gets focused down so fast it doesn’t have time to heal or someone tosses a defile on the WW and the heal is worthless. Something tells me you have no idea what you’re talking about
L
M
A
O
Werewolf´s get focused down fast because they´re a big threat if not taken care of (at least the ones who know what they´re doing). And werewolfs in high MMR games are less useful because they can´t support their group members with anything other than damage and stuns .Any other non-werewolf class has ways to heal or give other kinds of supportive features to a group (which is important in high MMR games) which a werewolf simply doesn´t bring to the table.
I main werewolf in PvP since 2+ years and you´ve to be living under a rock to fail to see how the heal isn´t overperforming. Get 30k+ HP ain´t hard even in No-CP and once you do, the heal will start healing for around 10k+ (depending on buffs/debuffs that are available to you). And you don´t sacrifice much damage on a werewolf even with a high HP pool.
Anyone getting focused in a high MMR BG will get killed fast enough without a healer. The key competent here Do you´ve a healer with you or not?, and it doesn´t matter if you´re a werewolf or not. The werewolf heal is one of the most powerful selfheals in the game. The only difference now is that you´ve to invest significantly more into magicka sustain to utilize it better.Lord_Eomer wrote: »
I would say it´s the complete opposite. Many of the passives from certain CP-allocations are more or less essential for werewolfs and the absence of some of them are very noticeable in no-cp
TL:DR = The good werewolfs will overcome these changes, and the ones getting carried by high HP builds and abusing LoS with pack-leader will have to L2P.
Show me you overcoming pack leader nerfs in BGs and making viable build, first one to do it? $10 on the table, send me your Vinmo or PayPal.1 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
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Why would I pick pack leader? Gross... Adapt, go Berserker.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
sneakymitchell✭✭✭✭
The minor maim and snare for pack leader? Should give it a taunt so players can use tremorscale lol even though the damage nerf and timing is 1 sec after taunt.NA-Xbox one- Ebonheart Pact- Nord Tank DK
PC-NA Ebonheart Pact Nord Stam Templar0 -
Shayu✭✭✭
Uh-huh, exactly. That's what I thought, not possible. The Pack Leader skin is now unusable.2 -
msalvia✭✭✭✭<---shedding tears for the worst playstyle in ESO. Goliath bash makes WW seem skill intensive.1 -
FenrisWolf1136✭✭✭These changes look good for pvp, but for pve? Go back to the drawing board... play some of the hardest content and trials in the game with one, then come back with a new gameplan. The skills and morphs are already limited as, no need to limit them further.Programmer of FenrisBot for discord.
The helper bot for ESO. Console Focused.
Check out https://norsewolfgames.com/fenrisbot for more information or to add it to your discord!0 -
Victor_Blade✭✭✭✭FenrisWolf1136 wrote: »These changes look good for pvp, but for pve? Go back to the drawing board... play some of the hardest content and trials in the game with one, then come back with a new gameplan. The skills and morphs are already limited as, no need to limit them further.
Doing hardest content with Werewolf 🤷♂️2 -
luen79rwb17_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭And I'm not even done leveling all of my skills for my Stamsorc dammit. You just can't casual play on alts when this game is constantly throwing curve balls at you.PC/DC/NAserver
V16 sorc - V16 temp - V16 dk - V1 nb - V1 temp - V1 dk0 -
Vercingetorix✭✭✭✭✭
✭Werewolves had their time and now it's over. Time to get back in your crate, dog.“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”3 -
bharathitman✭✭✭✭These nerfs are 100% justified, both in PvE and PvP. In PvE a well geared Werewolf in a good group can get decent ST DPS just by spamming light attacks. There is no rotation to learn, dots to keep up (for the most part) except for mindless LA spams. Giving such an easy one bar play-style way too much power was crazy to begin with in the first place.
Other people have adequately justified why the nerfs were needed in PvP too.2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WCynC15XSM