Another patch without Magicka buffs?

berzerkdethb14_ESO1

At this point I would support just removing the destro staff from the game from everyone but sorc and healers if you have no intention of balancing the playstyle.

magcros and magdens are especially the ass of every joke right now. I don't even play magcro anymore because it's so bad, but I still see people kicking magcros from trials/vet dlcs because they aren't stamcro (because that's what most people wanted when they heard necro---melee necro). Regardless of what a couple of people who like to get on these threads and be the contrarian say, Magicka is seriously hurting especially the aforementioned classes. You could honestly buff the warden and necro coefficients for their major spells by 15% and it still wouldn't be enough.

Are you just brushing it off because necro and warden have a play style that does work? Are you OK with there being a brand new class and almost nobody is playing the magicka version, the version I saw most people excited for? Is that not telling you something?

INB4 the contrarians. I am still yet to see an example other than an early parse where magcro/magden is barely acceptable at top tier gear and perfect play whereas stamina equivalents can be in half the gear with far far better numbers. All of my friends who prefer casting in games have moved on to other games or went magsorc (despite not liking it). There is an issue here whether you like it or not. Elder Stam Online/Stam Scrolls Online isn't a meme for no reason, it's because the people who actually play the game at any level other than questing know that there is a problem here.

berzerkdethb14_ESO1

Also inb4 magicka has range. People in high end trials are generally taking Bow/Bow builds for melee unfriendly fights because they do quite a bit more damage than magicka especially when Zaan (a monster helm which forces you in melee range) is needed for the magicka builds to even begin to carry their weight. The bow builds are a LOT more forgiving with rotation mistakes, too.

When Bow/Bow is doing more damage than Magicka you may need to look into things.

Saril_Durzam

Take it the other way, Magicka characters once dominated, things will change again, sooner or later. Magicka characters can provoke synergies, stamina characters will get damage thanks to that. Healers will keep using magkicka (probably). Futhermore, you can switch to stamina with all your characters, and for good. Adapt. Be smart. Play stamina.

Seraphayel

Stamina is dominating this game for what, more than a year now? Or even longer? Really can’t remember. I know Magblade was very strong during early Summerset iirc but that’s it. Magsorc and with a considerable distance Magplar are viable when it comes to Magicka specs, the rest is not. And we’re not talking about some slight underperformance for Magicka. The difference between the worst Stamina and the worst Magicka spec might be around 15-20k DPS which is almost 30%.

Insandros

I guess i'm getting a bit too old to be top performer, seems like now, doing 45-47k on 6 million dummy entirely self buff is enough for me now and i'm satisfied. Wish i'd still have teh reflex of younger people and my machine could allow me more, but still, i totaly enjoy my magika necro and it's play style. But again, i'm jsut a casual player who cares.

berzerkdethb14_ESO1

Insandros wrote: »

I guess i'm getting a bit too old to be top performer, seems like now, doing 45-47k on 6 million dummy entirely self buff is enough for me now and i'm satisfied. Wish i'd still have teh reflex of younger people and my machine could allow me more, but still, i totaly enjoy my magika necro and it's play style. But again, i'm jsut a casual player who cares.

45K on a magcro 6mill dummy is very VERY good for magcro. What setup/gear are you using? Trial gear?

berzerkdethb14_ESO1

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

Take it the other way, Magicka characters once dominated, things will change again, sooner or later. Magicka characters can provoke synergies, stamina characters will get damage thanks to that. Healers will keep using magkicka (probably). Futhermore, you can switch to stamina with all your characters, and for good. Adapt. Be smart. Play stamina.

I am playing a stamcro, but "play smart and adapt" isn't an answer. It's a pass for ZoS. Magicka shouldn't be a dead way to play. The magicka builds have been dead for a LONG LONG time. The playstyle is very different and enjoyable for many.

This is like saying "anyone can switch to necromancer in pvp. adapt. be samrt. play necro" absolutely ridiculous.

Should everyone stop complaining about the necro domination and just switch? This is a weak argument parroted by ZoS apologists for far too long.

ecru

Petsorc is really the only competitive mag dps in most situations. Lokkestiz is just too good of a set for magicka to really compete with stam. I like my mag necro but I still feel like I'm a detriment to my group, since if I was stam, my dps would be substantially higher. I put in 110% of the effort and get 80% of the results. It would be nice to be competitive as a mag necro once in awhile but ZOS has been silent, so I'm not getting my hopes up.

berzerkdethb14_ESO1

ecru wrote: »

Petsorc is really the only competitive mag dps in most situations. Lokkestiz is just too good of a set for magicka to really compete with stam. I like my mag necro but I still feel like I'm a detriment to my group, since if I was stam, my dps would be substantially higher. I put in 110% of the effort and get 80% of the results. It would be nice to be competitive as a mag necro once in awhile but ZOS has been silent, so I'm not getting my hopes up.

It's not a difficult fix. Just a couple of coefficient boosts would do it. Magicka is so unbelievably far behind it's not like they could *** up a boost

SidraWillowsky

It's ridiculous... Especially Magblade. I don't have a Magcro so I don't know how that rotation is, but the Magblade rotation is an overly-dynamic, unforgiving nightmare that has little payoff. I put so much work into it pre-Elsweyr and now I'm pulling 37k DPS at best. I'm not some superstar player but that's still insanely low relative to the work it takes rotation-wise to get there... Not to mention that if I don't have a near-perfect rotation, my DPS absolutely tanks.

My Magden, who's a week old and doesn't have all of her skills up to level IV, hit 39.3k today. So Magblade is down at rock bottom with what's long been considered the weakest DPS class dunno where things stand in terms of DPS difference between Magden and Magblade in the hands of the pros, but at this point Magden is winning for me, which isn't something I ever thought I'd be saying.

berzerkdethb14_ESO1

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

It's ridiculous... Especially Magblade. I don't have a Magcro so I don't know how that rotation is, but the Magblade rotation is an overly-dynamic, unforgiving nightmare that has little payoff. I put so much work into it pre-Elsweyr and now I'm pulling 37k DPS at best. I'm not some superstar player but that's still insanely low relative to the work it takes rotation-wise to get there... Not to mention that if I don't have a near-perfect rotation, my DPS absolutely tanks.

My Magden, who's a week old and doesn't have all of her skills up to level IV, hit 39.3k today. So Magblade is down at rock bottom with what's long been considered the weakest DPS class dunno where things stand in terms of DPS difference between Magden and Magblade in the hands of the pros, but at this point Magden is winning for me, which isn't something I ever thought I'd be saying.

but people say "just adapt and switch to stam" like we are all made of time and money

I DID switch to stam but it should NOT be the answer. You put a lot of work and learning into mag dps (which, I agree, tends to be more difficult with no payoff and I think is why many stam people cry on these forums when we ask for mag buffs) you SHOULD be able to compete with it.

jcm2606

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

Petsorc is really the only competitive mag dps in most situations. Lokkestiz is just too good of a set for magicka to really compete with stam. I like my mag necro but I still feel like I'm a detriment to my group, since if I was stam, my dps would be substantially higher. I put in 110% of the effort and get 80% of the results. It would be nice to be competitive as a mag necro once in awhile but ZOS has been silent, so I'm not getting my hopes up.

It's not a difficult fix. Just a couple of coefficient boosts would do it. Magicka is so unbelievably far behind it's not like they could *** up a boost

That's a dangerous line of thinking with Zenimax. Take the latest changes to bash stamcro's in PVP. That one specific Goliath morph on a build even half way dedicated towards amping up bash damage is easy to fix, right? Just nerf the bash damage on that morph or have that morph not interact with sword and board passives?

Nah, lets kinda 10% nerf that morph by making it a little harder to sustain, but 60% flat out nerf bash as a whole, and 30% nerf sword and board. That's an excellent idea! /s

Don't give yourself hope like that.

WrathOfInnos

SidraWillowsky wrote: »

It's ridiculous... Especially Magblade. I don't have a Magcro so I don't know how that rotation is, but the Magblade rotation is an overly-dynamic, unforgiving nightmare that has little payoff. I put so much work into it pre-Elsweyr and now I'm pulling 37k DPS at best. I'm not some superstar player but that's still insanely low relative to the work it takes rotation-wise to get there... Not to mention that if I don't have a near-perfect rotation, my DPS absolutely tanks.

My Magden, who's a week old and doesn't have all of her skills up to level IV, hit 39.3k today. So Magblade is down at rock bottom with what's long been considered the weakest DPS class dunno where things stand in terms of DPS difference between Magden and Magblade in the hands of the pros, but at this point Magden is winning for me, which isn't something I ever thought I'd be saying.

Magcro is the most difficult rotation of any class, stam or mag. And there is no reward for the difficulty.

Evito

Magcro and magden are great if you put your points in stam, equip daggers and use lokkestiiz

SidraWillowsky

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

but people say "just adapt and switch to stam" like we are all made of time and money

I DID switch to stam but it should NOT be the answer. You put a lot of work and learning into mag dps (which, I agree, tends to be more difficult with no payoff and I think is why many stam people cry on these forums when we ask for mag buffs) you SHOULD be able to compete with it.

Yep... players SHOULDN'T be forced to play a certain class.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Magcro is the most difficult rotation of any class, stam or mag. And there is no reward for the difficulty.

o.O and I didn't think it could possibly get worse than Magblade at this point. It sounds like the two Necro DD types are at the very opposite ends of the spectrum, at least PvE-wise... Magcro is the very worst in terms of DPS, and Stamcro is the very best. From a purely monetary perspective, you'd think that BOTH classes would be at the top/a bit OP so that more people are enticed to buy Elsweyr.

Evito wrote: »

Magcro and magden are great if you put your points in stam, equip daggers and use lokkestiiz

AND THAT'S THE THING and I'm going to be accused of being an RPer here but whatever- Necromancy? You'd think it would be stronger as a mag class because I don't know NECROMANCY IS MAGICKA-BASED. I'd make the same argument for the Warden but I don't 100% know the class "background".

I don't play her as much as the mag chars, but my main and first love is a stamblade. I was pretty freaked out by the Elsweyr nerfs and thought the sky was falling around my stamblade but... we adapted. Use Mark Target and my DPS is the same as it was pre-Els. My magblade hasn't recovered, however- there seems to be no way to adapt. There is almost zero reason to play her at this point; the magden is much stronger (lol, never thought I'd say that) in solo settings and the stamblade is much stronger in most group settings. I'll bring her out if I'm running more difficult content that's melee-unfriendly, but that's mostly only because I'd get side-eyed to death with the magden.

Blinkin8r

BuFf MaGiCka

Perhaps if you were a bit more particular ZOS could more accurately ignore whatever issue it is you have.

Nevasca

Seraphayel wrote: »

Stamina is dominating this game for what, more than a year now? Or even longer? Really can’t remember. I know Magblade was very strong during early Summerset iirc but that’s it. Magsorc and with a considerable distance Magplar are viable when it comes to Magicka specs, the rest is not. And we’re not talking about some slight underperformance for Magicka. The difference between the worst Stamina and the worst Magicka spec might be around 15-20k DPS which is almost 30%.

Stamina dominating the game? Stamina wasn't played at all before Elsewyr for end game guilds,we had mostly Magplars and Magblades, especially because a lot of fights (specifically Cloudrest) is so much easier for ranged builds.

Stamina is only "dominating" in ranged aspects because of trapping webs synergy, since it deals so much damage. Necromancer is OP with the Major Vulnerability ultimate, so having all of your DPS as Necromancers is pretty much BiS for more uptime on it, and it just happens that Stamcro is better than Magcro. That's all.

Sanguinor2

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Stamina dominating the game? Stamina wasn't played at all before Elsewyr for end game guilds,we had mostly Magplars and Magblades, especially because a lot of fights (specifically Cloudrest) is so much easier for ranged builds.

Stamina is only "dominating" in ranged aspects because of trapping webs synergy, since it deals so much damage. Necromancer is OP with the Major Vulnerability ultimate, so having all of your DPS as Necromancers is pretty much BiS for more uptime on it, and it just happens that Stamcro is better than Magcro. That's all.

You are trolling Right? Magicka meta pre elsweyr? What a joke.
Only Content where magicka was prefered for a lot of People were the 2 minitrials cloudrest and asylum because magicka is more forgiving there not because they are or were better dps wise in it. In all other Trials (and in the mini Trials too if your People could pull it off) Stam was and is the way to go.
Asylum world record was made pre elsweyr with a full Stamina Group btw really Shows how prevalent the mag meta is and was.

Nevasca

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Stamina dominating the game? Stamina wasn't played at all before Elsewyr for end game guilds,we had mostly Magplars and Magblades, especially because a lot of fights (specifically Cloudrest) is so much easier for ranged builds.

Stamina is only "dominating" in ranged aspects because of trapping webs synergy, since it deals so much damage. Necromancer is OP with the Major Vulnerability ultimate, so having all of your DPS as Necromancers is pretty much BiS for more uptime on it, and it just happens that Stamcro is better than Magcro. That's all.

You are trolling Right? Magicka meta pre elsweyr? What a joke.
Only Content where magicka was prefered for a lot of People were the 2 minitrials cloudrest and asylum because magicka is more forgiving there not because they are or were better dps wise in it. In all other Trials (and in the mini Trials too if your People could pull it off) Stam was and is the way to go.
Asylum world record was made pre elsweyr with a full Stamina Group btw really Shows how prevalent the mag meta is and was.

You're right - I'm confusing with pre-Wrathstone probably, since before then Bow/Bow builds weren't as good and people didn't even consider them.

Sanguinor2

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

You're right - I'm confusing with pre-Wrathstone probably, since before then Bow/Bow builds weren't as good and people didn't even consider them.

But even pre Wrathstone magicka was only stronger in mini Trials, in all other Content stam was higher dps.

Marginis

I mean, Frost staff is doing good things for tanking. That's a destruction staff.

It's easy to see everything as being terrible with a certain thing if you forget about other playstyles, classes, builds, aspects of the metagame - those sorts of things.

But yes, statistically at the current moment the DPS of magicka builds is lower than stamina builds, generally speaking. It just doesn't necessarily mean that magicka DPS is bad, because there are other things that matter besides damage.

Seraphayel

Why use Frost Staff as an example of diversity when we are talking about DPS? We don’t talk about SnB either in that case.

The problem is, Destruction Staff has 6 skills of which one/two (or in rare cases three) are used. The rest of the skills is underwhelming or has no purpose in PvE. Stamina at least has three times the amount of possible skills that can be used.

Then there are things like the missing Magicka execute where I opened another thread just for that purpose or skills like Scalding Rune that somehow are the equivalent to Rearming Trap but so much worse that some Magicka builds even require(d) you to take a Stamina skill for DPS because it is so much better than your Magicka counterpart.

There are several issues with Magicka builds in general, the most prevalent are imho:

- no Magicka

- absolutely no diversity/options when making builds due to lack of a second Magicka DPS weapon and overall weak Magicka skills in other skill

- requiring Melee range because of sets like Zaan where you can just another Stamina DPS that will do the job better

Iskiab

Best fix for magicka with the best overall result: change the destro passive so it’s 10% less mitigation on all attacks and not just abilities from the destro tree.

Destro passives suck, if it wasn’t for light attacks being such a huge part of your damage everyone would be using daggers.

MartiniDaniels

Magplar was buffed.

Nevasca

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

You're right - I'm confusing with pre-Wrathstone probably, since before then Bow/Bow builds weren't as good and people didn't even consider them.

But even pre Wrathstone magicka was only stronger in mini Trials, in all other Content stam was higher dps.

By all other content you mean vSO? It's no news stamina deals more damage there.

In vAA before bow builds people barely bothered bringing stamina in there. vHRC is so much easier with ranged+crushing shock upstairs (although tbf that fight is so bugged that most people skip it, not sure if they fixed it now though). Like you said mini trials vCR and vAS you pretty much need to be ranged to do optimal DPS as well, and at the time they were the lastest trials, the ones people cared the most of doing it and pushing scores. Most people usually don't care for old content scores, unless you really want to be top 1 in every trial in every patch.

What I'm trying to say is that we care a lot more for stamina damage because they dominate vSS, which is the last trial. I remember seeing posts complaining about stamina being not competitive in vCR, that all we had were magblades, yada yada.

Not sure about vHoF because honestly I barely touched that place, so yeah if stamina dominated two trials (vSO and vHoF) and magicka the rest, that's not really stamina dominating the meta imo.

Seraphayel

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Magplar was buffed.

Yeah I mean them being the best / second best Magicka class totally warrants a buff when Magcro, Magblade, Magden and MagDK (due to taking a melee spot) are still bottom tier...

@Littlebluelizard There’s something like PvP, too. And Stamina is dominating PvP for way over a year now.

Sanguinor2

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

By all other content you mean vSO? It's no news stamina deals more damage there.

In vAA before bow builds people barely bothered bringing stamina in there. vHRC is so much easier with ranged+crushing shock upstairs (although tbf that fight is so bugged that most people skip it, not sure if they fixed it now though). Like you said mini trials vCR and vAS you pretty much need to be ranged to do optimal DPS as well, and at the time they were the lastest trials, the ones people cared the most of doing it and pushing scores. Most people usually don't care for old content scores, unless you really want to be top 1 in every trial in every patch.

What I'm trying to say is that we care a lot more for stamina damage because they dominate vSS, which is the last trial. I remember seeing posts complaining about stamina being not competitive in vCR, that all we had were magblades, yada yada.

Not sure about vHoF because honestly I barely touched that place, so yeah if stamina dominated two trials (vSO and vHoF) and magicka the rest, that's not really stamina dominating the meta imo.

Please tell me you are not serious.
No stam in hel ra or archives? Thats a l2p issue, perfectly fine to bring stam into hrc or aa, they perform better and can melee all bosses and also conveniently hold all the highest scores. Vmol hm nuke was done by all stam, in Hof full stam is also better if you want to be serious.

Deathlord92

The only magic class I care about is magblade 😎

Joosef_Kivikilpi

Deathlord92 wrote: »

The only magic class I care about is magblade 😎

All the other magic class rotations are easy button lolz Nightblade rotation difficulty really doesn't feel satisfying for the price you have to pay to even get close to it. Very disappointed with all the damage nerfs we keep in getting shoveled onto us.

Illuvatarr

Littlebluelizard wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Stamina is dominating this game for what, more than a year now? Or even longer? Really can’t remember. I know Magblade was very strong during early Summerset iirc but that’s it. Magsorc and with a considerable distance Magplar are viable when it comes to Magicka specs, the rest is not. And we’re not talking about some slight underperformance for Magicka. The difference between the worst Stamina and the worst Magicka spec might be around 15-20k DPS which is almost 30%.

Stamina dominating the game? Stamina wasn't played at all before Elsewyr for end game guilds,we had mostly Magplars and Magblades, especially because a lot of fights (specifically Cloudrest) is so much easier for ranged builds.

Stamina is only "dominating" in ranged aspects because of trapping webs synergy, since it deals so much damage. Necromancer is OP with the Major Vulnerability ultimate, so having all of your DPS as Necromancers is pretty much BiS for more uptime on it, and it just happens that Stamcro is better than Magcro. That's all.

Stamina is better at everything in this game except group aoe in PvP and even in that scenario it is easier to play a stamwarden for group burst aoe than any other class. Your comment is incorrect.

Seraphayel

Joosef_Kivikilpi wrote: »

Deathlord92 wrote: »

The only magic class I care about is magblade 😎

All the other magic class rotations are easy button lolz Nightblade rotation difficulty really doesn't feel satisfying for the price you have to pay to even get close to it. Very disappointed with all the damage nerfs we keep in getting shoveled onto us.

I have no idea what exactly happened, Magblade was the strongest Magicka build just less than a year ago. I know they nerfed Focus but what else happened that they dropped so significantly?