What’s the strong argument against a Trial que system?

UGotBenched

Hey all,

So, I’m just curious what the strong argument against a trial group system is?

Unfortunately, I don’t always have the time to wait around trying to form groups in zone or I can’t meet the guilds usual schedule due to real life.

It seems to me one argument I always hear is the group most likely will do bad because the system can’t force communication or people won’t know mechanics.

Ok, well if you are worried about that then form your own group with guild members or friends. For those of us with a less flexible schedule, it would be nice to be able to que for a Trial run. If my group does not perform well, then that’s on me for running with randoms. I just don’t see the harm in introducing it.

kylewwefan

Try pugging trials from zone.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/478283/first-day-blind-sunspire-i-tried-but-the-time-ran-out#latest

TLDR most people are really bad. Trials are super buggy.

Don’t take my word for it. Get out there and pug.

VaranisArano

That's more or less it.

1. Trials take more coordination and more communication. They aren't designed for random players to queue up for them, unlike Group Dungeons.

2. Even in the case of group dungeons, we've seen that harder Group Dungeons have needed to be nerfed in some cases specifically because of low completion rates. We've got players asking for the DLC dungeons to be removed from the random queues. Trials are supposed to be challenging, and one of the ways they stay challenging is that they are NOT designed for whatever players the random queue throws together. They are designed for players who expressly join up to run that particular trial together, which means the level of challenge can be a lot higher.

3. Um...have you looked at the issues ZOS is having with Groupfinder lately? I mean, maybe its possible that ZOS' "We're totally revamping Groupfinder" will work better and maybe even include an Arena finder or a Trial finder that can handle 2 tanks, 2 healers, and 8 DDs...but I'll believe it when I see it.

So I figure its possible. Maybe not a good idea, but possible.

But as for whether ZOS can make it work properly? I am not optimistic.

Drako_Ei

I cant wait to pug vCR+3

aaisoaho

Since I'm undecided, the against arguments I can think of:
- would the group finder even work, since our current dungeon finder has issues every now and then. How about the queue length? How long could it look for a group?
- What about the group composition, should the finder look for: 2 tanks, 2 healers, 8 DDs; or 2 tanks, 1 healer, 9 DDs; or 1 tank, 2 healers, 9 DDs etc.
- What about the fake tanks/fake healers that are present on the current dungeon finder, should the trial finder fight against fake roles?

Of course, if they were to implement such finder, I would use it. I often play off hours, so finding a group for a trial can take long and often I start to form a group and hop from zone to zone sending LFM messages.

LadyNalcarya

For normal or vet?

Normal should be easy enough, but in HoF or Cloudrest things might get tricky if no one knows the mechanics. Anyway, I think that nTrial finder could work.
Veteran, though? There's no chance unless it's a Craglorn trial and everyone is decently geared and knows the tactics. Even then, I'm sure that there will be clueless people or trolls who would break statues or orbs.

UGotBenched wrote: »

Unfortunately, I don’t always have the time to wait around trying to form groups in zone or I can’t meet the guilds usual schedule due to real life.

That's understandable, but surely you don't have time to be stuck in vmol for hours on end?
Because this is what you would get.

Edit: I think there is something that could work to make trial grouping easier: custom lobby tool. So that you'd be able to create a lobby, state requirements/roles and wait for people. This way you wont have to spam zone chat at least.

yodased

The group finder is broken with 4 people matching. 12 peraon matching is not 3x it's orders of magnitude more complicated.

From a systems point of view the reason is because they can't.

BlazingDynamo

95% of the player population can't finish a vertern dungeon when using the dungeon finder what makes you think 12 of them put together will be able to complete a trial?

Odovacar

Normal could work imo, but I'd miss standing in Belkarth spamming zone chat "DPS LF …." .

JadonSky

I think it would just be getting the group finder to be able to handle group 12 men and what default roles are needed for each trial. Sadly the group finder has complications figuring this out with a 4 man group. 12 man would just kill the hamsters they have running the machines.

But maybe one day otherwise just chill in Craglorn its never taken me more then 5-10 minutes to join a pug group, they are always asking for people bc even guilds have a hard time dedicating people.

Swifigames

12 person Trial queue huh...have you even tried the 4 person normal queue?
A 4 queue can go very south...just on normal. And you want to multiply that by three?

I kinda like it the way it is tbh. Trials via queue would be a bad idea. Write this down.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma

LfR (or in this case LfT) would be the nail in the coffin for any remaining raiding guild in the game (casual or not) and would kill one of the few reasons players still communicate in the zone chat. It will also be a defining factor for future trial design (if it's implemented) wich will result in more simplistic content so that it can be completed through lfr.
And don't forget about this: Trials are END GAME content in an MMORPG. LfR systems fundamentally betray those two concepts.

UGotBenched

Alright, so yeah it makes sense if there’s issues with 4 man system then 12 is not doable. Thanks!

Oreyn_Bearclaw

They can’t form groups of four effectively, 12 would be a nightmare. I think the biggest issues would be player frustration. I think a group finder vet trial would on average have a very low rate of success.

Even on normal trials, your typical “fake tanks” you see in GF all the time would be a deal breaker. Trials are also very tough to do without voice communication.

UGotBenched

Looks like I’ll try and find a trial guild on Xbox NA.

My previous one ditched me right before the raid because they got nervous I’d never done cloudrest before. Despite it being a “training” run. That put a sour taste for trial guilds.

Xerikten

UGotBenched wrote: »

Alright, so yeah it makes sense if there’s issues with 4 man system then 12 is not doable. Thanks!

the wipe on the first boss would easily confirm this IF you ever get this far.

Katahdin

You can't have a static group composition for the group finder to manage.

Some trials need 1 tank, some need 2 and some run with 3.

You NEED to be able to communicate and coordinate in some trials and you can not do that with group text chat.

Most groups (guilds) schedule certain days of the week for runs. Some guilds have multiple runs per week and people sign up ahead of time so they don't have to waste time finding people.

If you can't meet the schedule that theguild has set, maybe you should find a guild that does runs in your time slot.

If a guild kicked you from a training run because you had never run that trial before.....lol..... That's a bad guild and you need to find another better one.

Donny_Vito

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

LfR (or in this case LfT) would be the nail in the coffin for any remaining raiding guild in the game (casual or not) and would kill one of the few reasons players still communicate in the zone chat. It will also be a defining factor for future trial design (if it's implemented) wich will result in more simplistic content so that it can be completed through lfr.
And don't forget about this: Trials are END GAME content in an MMORPG. LfR systems fundamentally betray those two concepts.

I would have to disagree with those assumptions, but I think we come to the same conclusion that a LFG for Trials is a bad idea. Even if the LFG (or LFT as you called it) were implemented, you are going to have raiding groups for Vet HM progressions. As far as communicating in Zone Chat, the only real place where I see Trials being advertised (Xbox NA) is in Craglorn, and other than that people are talkative in Zone Chat about anything from trading items to other random subjects. Also, the idea that if LFG were implemented for Trials it would result in easier content....but how come this isn't applicable to dungeons then? Every new DLC dungeon gets harder and harder, which is why you see an outcry on the forums about people not wanting DLC in their random dailies because they want easier content.

Sanguinor2

I dont see the Point honestly, Maybe for normal Trials only but if you Queue for a vet pug you will be very dissapointed nearly everytime, would probably cause a lot of Frustration if People Queue for Trials but most of the time cant finish them.

Kuramas9tails

I don't see a good counter answer tbh. Of course will a queue for vCR+3 work? No. Will it work for nHA? Yes, if given the average player appropriately queues for the position they are running in. The only argument I agree on is if grouping 4 people causes issues, imagine grouping 12...but this is neither the players fault and as a result, I believe this should be something that ZOS should work on fixing and adding. People already argue about battleground groups.

Navras

World of Warcraft LFR. It is a strong enough argument alone.

ATomiX96

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

LfR (or in this case LfT) would be the nail in the coffin for any remaining raiding guild

That statement doesnt make sense at all.
If you have a guild dedicated to doing normal trials you should reconsider your guild slots, sorry to say, but it is what it is.
And do you seriously think a pug could clear any trial beyond the craglorn ones vet?
I think it would be fun to see a lfr system implemented for normal trials as you can do them without coordination, anything beyond that youll still need a group of friends or a guild.

Navras wrote: »

World of Warcraft LFR. It is a strong enough argument alone.

The thing is zone chat spam in craglorn is the equivalent of WoWs' LFR, difficulty wise, normal trials are even easier than LFR IMO, so might as well implement a system to reduce zone chat spam.
But we know how well queue systems and ZOS go together.

Defilted

I think having a normal only trial queue would introduce tons of players to trials. This would be a good thing and get more people involved in the trials process.

I do not think a vet trial queue is needed and needs to remain a manual process.

Swifigames

UGotBenched wrote: »

Alright, so yeah it makes sense if there’s issues with 4 man system then 12 is not doable. Thanks!

It's not necessarily a problem with the 4 man system. It's more an issue of no communication and/or people not wanting or willing to learn a particular dungeon's mechanics. Even if you had your mic in and tried to explain it to them or through chat text it won't always pan out.

The trial finder could work, but you would need everyone in group to understand basic ESO combat mechanics...many of which might not. I used to be one of these people...didn't have a clue what I was doing. Thankfully I was able to learn many of these necessary things by joining a Guild and running daily's with a few regular people. It helped tremendously and my casting & skill execution improved dramatically. Now I can go into a lot of end-game content with some of my characters and feel comfortable in being able to help as needed.

I love the new Zone Guide, it's a great help for questing when at times I felt lost.
Perhaps some type of Dungeon Guide could also be of great asset to help teach more players the basics of combat in this MMO. There's also the option to take newer players or those with a lesser understanding of this system under your wing, bring them into a Guild and teach them. Helping other players will reward you both in different ways.

I don't do trials much at all tbh, but I do think a Trial Finder would be rather chaotic considering how chaotic the 4 man can be.
I'm not saying it can't be done, it would just be rough.
Nothing wrong with brainstorming ideas!

therift

How long will the queue require to locate the typical trial group of two tanks, two healers, and eight dps?

Will it be less than or greater than the remaining lifetime of the sun?

Tsar_Gekkou

They won't implement it because it would just *** people off to spend time queueing for a normal trial, only to get fake tanks, fake healers, and dps with ice staffs and sword and shields. It would simply lead to more anger at the system that Zos wouldn't be able to do anything about because it's a community problem instead of a technical one.

idk

kylewwefan wrote: »

Try pugging trials from zone.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/478283/first-day-blind-sunspire-i-tried-but-the-time-ran-out#latest

TLDR most people are really bad. Trials are super buggy.

Don’t take my word for it. Get out there and pug.

Lets not forget a great many do not know the mechanics and some do not even care. Then you have the person who thinks they are the born leader and seem to be the most clueless of the group.

Even on normal some of the newer trials would be a train wreck. Off hand thinking vHoF and even vMoL can be an issue with a rag tag team.

I personally do not care if Zos adds normal trials to the GF though they need to adopt a policy of deleting any thread complaining about the group they got in GF as we will see a bunch of it because those type of people always blame everyone else because they are so perfect. LOL

The worse thing Zos could ever do is to add vet trials to the GF though I think it is in their best interest to not add normal either for the reasons posted.

Anyone actually interested in running trials has not excuse. Find a guild that runs them. There are plenty. Be part of the solution and help form and lead them in your guild. Be the solution instead of looking to Zos to solve all your woes. They already gave you the tools.

Inaya

Two words - LFR WOW

Nuff said

Ash_In_My_Sujamma

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Ash_In_My_Sujamma wrote: »

LfR (or in this case LfT) would be the nail in the coffin for any remaining raiding guild in the game (casual or not) and would kill one of the few reasons players still communicate in the zone chat. It will also be a defining factor for future trial design (if it's implemented) wich will result in more simplistic content so that it can be completed through lfr.
And don't forget about this: Trials are END GAME content in an MMORPG. LfR systems fundamentally betray those two concepts.

I would have to disagree with those assumptions, but I think we come to the same conclusion that a LFG for Trials is a bad idea. Even if the LFG (or LFT as you called it) were implemented, you are going to have raiding groups for Vet HM progressions. As far as communicating in Zone Chat, the only real place where I see Trials being advertised (Xbox NA) is in Craglorn, and other than that people are talkative in Zone Chat about anything from trading items to other random subjects. Also, the idea that if LFG were implemented for Trials it would result in easier content....but how come this isn't applicable to dungeons then? Every new DLC dungeon gets harder and harder, which is why you see an outcry on the forums about people not wanting DLC in their random dailies because they want easier content.

Unfortunately they are not assumptions but observations from other mmorpgs where a similar system was implemented.

Yes you are going to have raiding guilds but the number of those guilds will be minimal since there will be almost no reason for a guild like this to exist.

Yes Craglorn is the only place forming trial groups but that was not the case in the past. Before the lfg system in the game for dungeons was reworked there was a similar thing going on in the zone chat of all alliance capitals. Same thing will happen to craglorn as well.

It is applicable to dungeons. Dungeons are nerfed patch after patch after patch. If you compare most of present dungeons to what they used to be 1 or 2 years ago you will find that the difficulty overall has decreased significantly. Add in the equation the power creep players "suffer" from (and I use the word suffer because I believe that overpowered players leads to boring gameplay) you will find that completing a dungeon nowadays is something trivial for most groups.
People just complain in the forums for nerfs in content and dlc dungeons because they think that everything should be PuGed. Everything should be completed with the minimum effort. People don't ask for challenges because they care only for the reward. And of course when you are after the reward you will pursue the fastest and easiest way possible. You don't care about how to complete the content you just want to complete it and then go to the next one and the next one and so on. But that's not the concept of end game content. At least not from my perspective.

KappaKid83

UGotBenched wrote: »

Hey all,

So, I’m just curious what the strong argument against a trial group system is?

Unfortunately, I don’t always have the time to wait around trying to form groups in zone or I can’t meet the guilds usual schedule due to real life.

It seems to me one argument I always hear is the group most likely will do bad because the system can’t force communication or people won’t know mechanics.

Ok, well if you are worried about that then form your own group with guild members or friends. For those of us with a less flexible schedule, it would be nice to be able to que for a Trial run. If my group does not perform well, then that’s on me for running with randoms. I just don’t see the harm in introducing it.

Dungeon Finder is currently not working as intended. It is in need of a fix and until you can fix this problem I do not see being able to run a 12 Man Que system when the 4 person does not work.

Elwendryll

I wouldn't mind as long as there is no "random trial" option, provided everything works correctly. And there should be CP requirements like for DLC dungeons, but a bit more higher.
They could also manage to lock a trial behind the achievement to make sure you already completed it before queuing for it.

And obviously, the whole tool should advertise the trials as being challenging content, that requires a lot of teamwork.

Honestly I would probably use it for some farm runs. When being alone, or when we can't fill all the spots.