DPS queuing as tank/healer

Aloha

Comixfan wrote: »

Not sure about on PC, but almost every dungeon of late on Xbox has DPS queuing as tank and/or heals.

This needs to stop. There are roles in game for a reason.

Zenimax need to change it so that if you have no taunt abilities on your bar(s) you can't queue as tank, and if you have no group healing abilities on your bar(s) you can't queue as healer.

Just no.

Most Veteran dungeon non-dlc can be doable solo as DPS.

Healers slow donw the major part of dungeon, 3 DDs and tank is still the best i.e vDSA but not for all content just the most part of veteran dungeons.

phuein

The real problem is that dungeon runs don't always require the 3 roles. And that queuing is borked.

As a healer main, I'm usually more useful with little heals and lots of dps, than the other way around.

IonicKai

Honestly it was better when you could queue up for multiple roles as there was a better chance of getting real tanks and healers. That said you should always give people a shot as you can skip many of the mechanics with sufficient damage and the threshold on normal is very low. On vet the threshold is higher but it is often still possible. There is not a good way for ZoS to enforce if you are a tank or healer as that goes against the "play as you want" stance they have which is ultimately better for players.

FrancisCrawford

Vercingetorix wrote: »

As long as my magicka dps has a resto staff on the back bar, I will continue to queue as healer. If you require dedicated healing on a normal non-DLC dungeon, improve your dps - most fights are short enough for self-heals to be sufficient. As a general rule, I don't bother with dedicated healing unless it's vet or a specific normal DLC dungeon.

I don't see this as an either/or. When I heal on a max-level character:

• I wear SPC and double-cast Mutagen on cooldown accordingly.
• I cast Elemental Drain on cooldown in boss fights.
• I cast Ward Ally if somebody's health bar quivers, or if we're going through a known set of traps (e.g. Volenfell steam vents).
• I wear Earthgore for emergencies.
• I wear Worm Cult. (Too lazy to change it out if the DPS are stamina.
• I throw enough shards/orbs at least for the tank, if I have the skill unlocked.
• I often cast Combat Prayer if the DDs are standing together aren't aren't ridiculously weak.
• I may cast Warhorn on cooldown.

That all still leaves plenty of time for DPS, although bar space can be a challenge (worse on some classes than others).

Aloha

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

As long as my magicka dps has a resto staff on the back bar, I will continue to queue as healer. If you require dedicated healing on a normal non-DLC dungeon, improve your dps - most fights are short enough for self-heals to be sufficient. As a general rule, I don't bother with dedicated healing unless it's vet or a specific normal DLC dungeon.

I don't see this as an either/or. When I heal on a max-level character:

• I wear SPC and double-cast Mutagen on cooldown accordingly.
• I cast Elemental Drain on cooldown in boss fights.
• I cast Ward Ally if somebody's health bar quivers, or if we're going through a known set of traps (e.g. Volenfell steam vents).
• I wear Earthgore for emergencies.
• I wear Worm Cult. (Too lazy to change it out if the DPS are stamina.
• I throw enough shards/orbs at least for the tank, if I have the skill unlocked.
• I often cast Combat Prayer if the DDs are standing together aren't aren't ridiculously weak.
• I may cast Warhorn on cooldown.

That all still leaves plenty of time for DPS, although bar space can be a challenge (worse on some classes than others).

But, DPS works better than you to do dungeon.

mobicera

Fulgurance wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

As long as my magicka dps has a resto staff on the back bar, I will continue to queue as healer. If you require dedicated healing on a normal non-DLC dungeon, improve your dps - most fights are short enough for self-heals to be sufficient. As a general rule, I don't bother with dedicated healing unless it's vet or a specific normal DLC dungeon.

I don't see this as an either/or. When I heal on a max-level character:

• I wear SPC and double-cast Mutagen on cooldown accordingly.
• I cast Elemental Drain on cooldown in boss fights.
• I cast Ward Ally if somebody's health bar quivers, or if we're going through a known set of traps (e.g. Volenfell steam vents).
• I wear Earthgore for emergencies.
• I wear Worm Cult. (Too lazy to change it out if the DPS are stamina.
• I throw enough shards/orbs at least for the tank, if I have the skill unlocked.
• I often cast Combat Prayer if the DDs are standing together aren't aren't ridiculously weak.
• I may cast Warhorn on cooldown.

That all still leaves plenty of time for DPS, although bar space can be a challenge (worse on some classes than others).

But, DPS works better than you to do dungeon.

If you can't resonably do 4 person content with a healer that buffs and debuffs you are probably a weak dps... 4 person content can be done pretty easily.
That being said as a tank main I prefer 3 dps 1 tank runs as it's more fun as a tank controlling everything and self sustaining...
But I would never turn down a healer that supports the group for 4 person content...
But then the dps I often play dlc content with are not weak...

ArenGesus

If everybody who has this complaint would roll a tank and a healer, we'd have enough to go around and there wouldn't be a problem to complain about.

rotaugen454

ArenGesus wrote: »

If everybody who has this complaint would roll a tank and a healer, we'd have enough to go around and there wouldn't be a problem to complain about.

I have 3 tank and 4 healer characters. I just hate playing as a DPS and having someone who thinks they are “special” and get to skip the line I just did . I vote to kick.

ArenGesus

rotaugen454 wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

If everybody who has this complaint would roll a tank and a healer, we'd have enough to go around and there wouldn't be a problem to complain about.

I have 3 tank and 4 healer characters. I just hate playing as a DPS and having someone who thinks they are “special” and get to skip the line I just did . I vote to kick.

I don't queue as tank, but I don't mind when others do it. My wait would be 2 hours instead of 1 otherwise.

Tsar_Gekkou

People don't realize that there's nothing that can be done about this. The reason people do this in the first place is because they want to play the game, but might not have an hour to spend in queue just to gamble on whether or not they'll get into a dungeon when readying up because the queue system has been dicked for a while. Not everyone has fun roleplaying or farming while waiting for the queue to pop, so you get people who want to run dungeons trying to maximize the use of limited time they have to play each day by skipping the dps queue to actually get into a dungeon. On the occasion that I actually queue for a random normal on my dps these days, it tends to take around half an hour, and that's just for a random normal with ESO+ giving me access to all dungeons. People queueing for specific dungeons have to wait longer, and dlc dungeons might have you waiting for 2 hours depending on which one and how late it is.

This wasn't as much of a problem back when the game was less popular since there were less people in queue, but with every new player joining comes more of a wait for dungeons, and it's the dps queue that gets shafted the most. I never had to wait super long in queue as a dps 2 years ago and could pug all kinds of dungeons to complete, but not only have tons of new players joined, the average dps has gotten much worse for some reason and you might not be able to pug a normal Scalecaller Peak due to the 5K dps the average dd puts out. People don't want to ask around in zone chat for a group because they know people might not help them, and they don't join a pug dungeon guild for reasons unknown. As long as we need specific roles, there will be people who abuse the system because the alternative of not being able to play the game due to the extensive wait doesn't sit well with people. It's not even a game flaw at this point, but a flaw with the community.

Glurin

Raiden_Gekkou wrote: »

Not everyone has fun roleplaying or farming while waiting for the queue to pop, so you get people who want to run dungeons trying to maximize the use of limited time they have to play each day by skipping the dps queue to actually get into a dungeon.

Thus wasting everybody's time when they get put in a group that needs a tank because now they have to vote kick the fake tank, put themselves back in the queue, pray they don't get yet another fake tank AND that they get a tank who's willing to do a partial dungeon.

phuein

To be fair, just as severe of a problem is getting crap DPS when it's a Vet HM. Replacing them just to get another crappy one happens, too. Dungeoneering should either be smarter by design or more flexible for playability.

rohunt

I've been queuing as PUG healer for as long as I've been playing this game. (Started back in 2017) and yeah this does happen a few times but USUALLY I try my best to vote to kick. It doesn't happen enough in my opinion that I would consider voting for an in game precaution to help stop it.

Best bet is just to scold and kick. Even more so if they're doing it for veteran stuff.

JumpmanLane

Don’t pug dungeons. Problem solved. Last time I queued as a tank on my MagDk (dps) for a random normal was with a pal whose max level and wanted to do a dungeon. We got two low levels around level 40. I went afk my pal left group. The low levels queued up again. I accepted, screw it right.

Now it’s a normal. We got an actual tank. It was FG2 and the tank is actually giving out mechanics and advice. I had a ice staff back bar and started pulling everything he was tanking. Oh he got pissed.

I told him he needed to start killing stuff instead of standing there holding up block because I WAS QUEQUED AS THE TANK. (I was just FUNNING Sheriff). Lol. He got real pissed.

I told him in private that I didn’t need him OR those two lowbies so relax. He left just before the final boss. Me and the two lowbies killed it and they became my friends.

My max level friend was like wtf you doing. I was like nothing... hehehehe

phuein

The game should automatically detect someone too low level or a bad dps and be like, "Do you want to replace that player?" If 2/3 vote Yes, then BAM replacement automagickally.

It should also notify the newbie about this and why it happened, so they can avoid it.

But we all know this will never happen. Hell, they even removed our ability to see actual DPS of others who hide it. Carrying players sucks, and carries [who don't ask permission] should be ashamed.

ryzen_gamer_gal

Coatmagic wrote: »

Chasing the damn bosses around sucks; much prefer to taunt them and keep them in one spot xD

Well, except the might chudan of course.

ryzen_gamer_gal

i have hybrid dps/healers. I ran one lte last night early this morning my time (though on eu server) Guildie asked for a dps. Took my hybrid in to dps had o complaints. First time i slotted her as a dps. Usu go as healer. Sure people get confused when they see me switching between my healer bar and my dps bar but really... vet Wayrest Sewers was no problem as dps. Can use this one in vet Cradle of Shadows too. have done that run as a healer without complaint.


The problem with making requirements for how people can slot their toons is really this is just about someones butt hurt over faction lock in cyro dilly-dally and so they want to be a problem for everyone else because they cant have their way (my suspicion only though my insight is usu pretty spot on)

The other problem with enforcing a requirement for dungeons and trials is that people will abuse excluding people. And that's the truth. Let's not empower nastiness. There is already a tool in place to get rid of the fakers. you vote to kick.

But really the bigger problem in dungeons is the impatience of high level players with low level players. My toons have cp 470+ on both servers for at least 4 toons and it annoys me to now end when someone comes in a dungeon and see's low level players and takes off to solo the thing themselves. I wont hesitate to vote to kick.

The thing i think we might need more than another tool to get rid of the fakers is really to allow the people who wish to solo the random dungeon to do so. Problem solved. So basically you could queue a random normal for a group or as solo. That's really the greater need in my opinion.

narcotic075

Comixfan wrote: »

Not sure about on PC, but almost every dungeon of late on Xbox has DPS queuing as tank and/or heals.

This needs to stop. There are roles in game for a reason.

Zenimax need to change it so that if you have no taunt abilities on your bar(s) you can't queue as tank, and if you have no group healing abilities on your bar(s) you can't queue as healer.

I use my dd as heal or tank to enter dungeon, because it's faster and I don’t wait 1 hour but 1 minute - It's the difference.
But my dd chars are hybrid and professions changed for instances, not like a fake tank/heal - they are doing their job.
But I understand you, if you meant fake chars, but…

I will not defend you or the people who do this because they do it according to the rules of the game that you accepted today and earlier: TOS 11:
“EACH SERVICE IS PROVIDED TO YOU ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS. “,
“IF YOU ARE NOT SATISFIED WITH THE QUALITY, FUNCTIONALITY, AVAILABILITY, ACCESSIBILITY OR PERFORMANCE OF A SERVICE, YOU MAY CANCEL YOUR ACCOUNT”,
or you can use the kick option, available "as is" in game.

I know that this is the producer's fault, after 2 years they showed how they fixed the dungeon queue limiting the availability for players and now you can’t enter at all during rush hour because you will get a kick to the login screen for too much interactions per sec… and many BUGS movies on YT and MEMES here at forum.

I had the same on the battleground when a certain person whispered after I left the group because we were random and the other two prepared. We didn’t have a chance and I just wanted to do daily for the exp, but at 3rd places we could not achieve it. According to TOS, I chose a 20-minute penalty, because is available "as is" in game.
Same ppl can join dungeon as fake role, it’s allowed and is part of the game, every class can be everything.

It’s ZOS fault, they can change the game but they don’t. They could introduce a lot of different functions to the arena/dungeon finder but is easier to limit it. They could enter equipment/character rankings/points – like other games, blocking skills OR
required skills for dungeon, daily experience bonus for 3rd place in the arena - people would not go out if they were losers in advance.

It's just my opinion – casual gamer - who doesn’t have time to compose everything in the game.

But that will not be taken into account because TOS says that our opinion doesn’t matter and we have to adapt ... or leave. That's why I canceled subscriptions a week ago https://postimg.cc/HjpHzhJ6 . I will not pay for a broken and unsatisfying service - I wrote about it a few months earlier.

Lisutaris

If a DD wants to tank and does not use any taunt skill .... kick.
If a DD wants to tank and still has ~20k HP AND not higher resistances than usual .... kick.
If a DD wants to heal but has not even vigor.... kick.
If a DD wants to heal but forgets to heal because he is busy dealing dmg ... kick.

If a DD deals dmg and just that, maybe some sort of support because he/she wants to be a lil bit supportive. OK.

I would recomment to kick when the final boss fight is starting. Some call it mean, I call it education. AH, and let him try to kill the boss alone and just watch, dps will not be enough and you can watch how he/she is still trying to get it killed before teleport



~Sidenote: If he/she is somehow polite, maybe, just maybe, it will be acceptable.

Heelie

Lisutaris wrote: »

If a DD wants to tank and does not use any taunt skill .... kick.
If a DD wants to tank and still has ~20k HP AND not higher resistances than usual .... kick.
If a DD wants to heal but has not even vigor.... kick.
If a DD wants to heal but forgets to heal because he is busy dealing dmg ... kick.

If a DD deals dmg and just that, maybe some sort of support because he/she wants to be a lil bit supportive. OK.

I would recomment to kick when the final boss fight is starting. Some call it mean, I call it education. AH, and let him try to kill the boss alone and just watch, dps will not be enough and you can watch how he/she is still trying to get it killed before teleport



~Sidenote: If he/she is somehow polite, maybe, just maybe, it will be acceptable.

You forgot.... If dd does less than 45k single target kick, because that's about the minimum you will do in a full dd spec

or maybe we can just all be decent human beings, try and communicate. If you call someone out chances are they will leave or ask to get kicked. No reason to waste your own as well as their time.

phuein

Even 30k is something. Minimal build and rotation for DPS.

Again, kicking doesn't always work. I've seen many dungeons where others won't kick. And it went as you expect: badly. It's not "Nice" to carry people. It sucks for everybody and wastes time. Some players are just selfish and want a carry without even asking - that should be expunged!

Comixfan

Lisutaris wrote: »

If a DD wants to heal but has not even vigor.... kick.

I wouldn't kick a healer for not having Vigor because not everyone wants to PvP. So long as they have other heals and can perform the role then it's fine.

But if they're a DPS and not an actual healer then yes, vote kick.

Aznarb

idk wrote: »

Tasear wrote: »

Just vote to kick them.

This. If the group does not kick them then they are basically accepting of it.

And take the time to form your own group or at least most of it.

Edit. Btw, I don’t like queueing with less than 3 in group. It gives us control. We don’t kick lessee experienced players but we do kick jerks and people that like to behave like idiots.

It really does pay to from up at least most of the group and it’s easy to do so.

This^

When I can, I'm at least with one friend.
If not I still try to kick the egoist who fake role.
They made a DPS ? Then role for DPS, stop trying to cheat, assume your choice.

Same for low DPS, if they're low CP, it's OK, we try to carry them as long as they listen and apply strat when needed.
If not or if high cp with pathetic DPS, it's also a kick.

If you queue as a specific role then the team wait you to do this role.
If you can't, do easy content, practice & improve.

That also ZoS designer fault to make every overland content to easy (even normal no-DLC DG).
When ppl start to run them and see it's easy they think they can do vet-DLC content w/o any decent build/rota/weaving/tanking/healing/hybrid weird build and so on.

No enough player use Youtube and Forum to get information, most of them just play and don't know about the rest and don't understand why they're kick (that why I always try to explain why we kick them).

Well, I go a bit far but that is, just kick people who don't meet the condition of his role, that all.

Girl_Number8

Comixfan wrote: »

Not sure about on PC, but almost every dungeon of late on Xbox has DPS queuing as tank and/or heals.

This needs to stop. There are roles in game for a reason.

Zenimax need to change it so that if you have no taunt abilities on your bar(s) you can't queue as tank, and if you have no group healing abilities on your bar(s) you can't queue as healer.

The GF is broken as it is. I certainly don't see Zos even capable of adding such a feature. I would suggest if it matters that much to you, run with friends and guildies, or you should have a healer and a tanky of your own. Either way, it will save you a lot of headaches.

But most decent tankys out there won't waste their time on pugs, for many valid reasons.

Have a dps/tanky/healer of your own and a good active guild to be in. ESO is a social game good luck

phuein

Most of the time pugs work fine, really. It's the less common cases that are meh. But then again, a certain percentage of the population will always be meh. No real filter for that, eh.

I recall doing an easy dungeon vet pug. At the end, one "princess" decided she needs to go back all the way and do the quest. Without asking, she just said it and left, for long minutes. When I complained, her friend told me to calm down - which really means f myself. I simply left them to do the last boss without me.

There should be no penalty for leaving a crappy pug, dungeon or BG. Whatever balance Zeni is trying to insert - it's not worth it. Can't let aholes get away with crap.

Ramber

Just lock tanks as tanks so they cant queue as a dps after they queue as a tank for 30 days or for paying gold for changing
character type from tank back to dps lol..

mairwen85

...

Sylianwe

Indeed. Not only is it completely eradicating the group dynamic, and for some, the joy of specific roles, it's a selfish, inconsiderate thing to do.

If you want to queue as a healer, become one.

There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings going around about why it should/shouldn't be tolerated.

It isn't about needing heals as a tank (I'm self-sustainable and don't need the heals, though, my team members may for survival); nor is it about the need for a tank and/or healer for certain group content when you can just burn everything down (so can my DPS); and it certainly doesn't make the dungeon go faster (the amount of massacres and delays I've had to witness due to yet another DPS's illusory superiority and inability to recognize their lack of ability, is staggering).

It's about having balanced groups and giving others the opportunity to enjoy their dungeon experience.

If you queue for group content, act like you are ready to be in one.
If you just want to burn everything down and not care about others, go solo then. It's perfectly doable. My dps rather enjoys soloing content.
If you can't solo but want to try out different group dynamics, play with friends/guildies. Don't line up with randoms expecting them to pick up your slack.
And, if you can't solo and remain a DPS, queue like the rest of us and don't take away roles from others you have no intention of fulfilling.

DaNnYtHePcFrEaK

Or how about a check system where certain skills have a DD, TANK OR HEAL tag attached, 5 or more to be able to select the role... or better still select the role at character creation and release role change tokens in the crown store, unless you RP everyone knows what role they wanna be

FierceSam

What’s the metric for a good tank?

What’s the metric for a good healer?

There are none because ZOS (and players) have no idea of how to measure successful tanking or healing. So there is no simple method of players recognising the power of good tanking and healing.

A good tank or healer will increase your damage by more than your potions and glyphs. They’ll debuff your enemies by more than your 5 piece bonus. And they’ll keep you alive or prevent you from being hit.

But there’s no simple number to show all of that so ugly people think it’s clever to pretend they can do it.

(Obviously if you want to put a group together without a tank or dd, that’s your choice. Just don’t be the player who does it to a bunch of randoms behind their back, cos that’s not a good look).