Magicka Necro in BGs

Joy_Division

Waffennacht wrote: »

Huge fan.

Honestly. Really. Truthfully.

Hots! Hots! Hots!

Major protection

Solid ults

Think of my "Unkillable" sorcerer... Only better.

Your thoughts? I know most dislike it, to you, how you playing it? Ranged?

Edit: at work, will discuss more when I can!

I guess if you like how the game has changed to favor builds that tank and frustrate opponents as opposed to actually doing anything interesting offensively (let alone building for it), then I could see how someone might be a big fan.

Necro is greasing the rails in a direction I'd rather not PvP gameplay to go IMHO.

Waffennacht

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Huge fan.

Honestly. Really. Truthfully.

Hots! Hots! Hots!

Major protection

Solid ults

Think of my "Unkillable" sorcerer... Only better.

Your thoughts? I know most dislike it, to you, how you playing it? Ranged?

Edit: at work, will discuss more when I can!

I guess if you like how the game has changed to favor builds that tank and frustrate opponents as opposed to actually doing anything interesting offensively (let alone building for it), then I could see how someone might be a big fan.

Necro is greasing the rails in a direction I'd rather not PvP gameplay to go IMHO.

I understand this sentiment completely; and you're right - it's a lot about my preferred style.

I personally would much rather survive against 4 opponents than being able to demolish one or two.

My sorc goes like 6-0 (yeah a mighty 6 kills...) But doesn't die. I much prefer 6-0 over 21-10 (as an example)

I don't see exactly the tool set for a necro to really burst too much down. No sustained pressure and just barely bursty, I feel like Necro is a less offensive DK

Neloth

Waffennacht wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Huge fan.

Honestly. Really. Truthfully.

Hots! Hots! Hots!

Major protection

Solid ults

Think of my "Unkillable" sorcerer... Only better.

Your thoughts? I know most dislike it, to you, how you playing it? Ranged?

Edit: at work, will discuss more when I can!

I guess if you like how the game has changed to favor builds that tank and frustrate opponents as opposed to actually doing anything interesting offensively (let alone building for it), then I could see how someone might be a big fan.

Necro is greasing the rails in a direction I'd rather not PvP gameplay to go IMHO.

I understand this sentiment completely; and you're right - it's a lot about my preferred style.

I personally would much rather survive against 4 opponents than being able to demolish one or two.

My sorc goes like 6-0 (yeah a mighty 6 kills...) But doesn't die. I much prefer 6-0 over 21-10 (as an example)

I don't see exactly the tool set for a necro to really burst too much down. No sustained pressure and just barely bursty, I feel like Necro is a less offensive DK

DK has very strong offense: 2 strong dots, new bursty whip, best CC in the game, very strong burst ult, good gap closer to stay in melee range.

What magcro has from the list? I don’t think they can be even compared

Iskiab

Joy_Division wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Huge fan.

Honestly. Really. Truthfully.

Hots! Hots! Hots!

Major protection

Solid ults

Think of my "Unkillable" sorcerer... Only better.

Your thoughts? I know most dislike it, to you, how you playing it? Ranged?

Edit: at work, will discuss more when I can!

I guess if you like how the game has changed to favor builds that tank and frustrate opponents as opposed to actually doing anything interesting offensively (let alone building for it), then I could see how someone might be a big fan.

Necro is greasing the rails in a direction I'd rather not PvP gameplay to go IMHO.

Issue is moreso that some classes have crazy burst. You have to build to defend yourself against them, so the classes without the burst have a hard time.

I’ve found the opposite concerning burst, burst is up this patch... or it might be lag making it feel like burst.

I’ve only been in two BGs ever where no one on my team died. Are these complaints from CP? I don’t see it in no-CP. If you like lots of deaths and faster paced play no-CP, if you want longer combat play CP.

DokThor90

What does a tanky buiild look like where U Tank 6 Players @Waffennacht ? What skills ?

Waffennacht

DokThor90 wrote: »

What does a tanky buiild look like where U Tank 6 Players @Waffennacht ? What skills ?

For the moment I'm running

Front bar: blast bones, invasion, blood sacrifice, hungry Scythe, and reverb
Back bar: arcanist, beckoning armor, intensive Mender, entropy, and deaden pain

Gonna get bone shield in there soon

Hots are Mender, deaden, and hungry, with hungry also doubling as a spot heal, blood sacrifice is a very solid spot heal too

With the corpse producing mechanics deaden is a high uptime major protection source too

Ravenous Goliath makes you essentially invincible during the duration as well.

InvictusApollo

Waffennacht wrote: »

Huge fan.

Honestly. Really. Truthfully.

Hots! Hots! Hots!

Major protection

Solid ults

Think of my "Unkillable" sorcerer... Only better.

Your thoughts? I know most dislike it, to you, how you playing it? Ranged?

Edit: at work, will discuss more when I can!

I'm trying to decide whether make a magicka or stamina necro first. Would you mind sharing your build to help me decide?

Waffennacht

@InvictusApollo

Zaan
Plague Doctor
Bright Throat

Orzorga's Red Frothgar

I listed the skills above; not necessarily married to anything yet

SnB, Resto backbar

Atm apprentice mundus - if mobility is an issue I am considering RAT, and/or Steed and Swift

Spell damage glyphs, I might go with 1 Regen

Edit: Dunmer cuz I like every passive

wheem_ESO

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Mojomonkeyman very interesting, you listed some players that definitely caught my eye.

Why did those hp builds not do well enough? (Such as Rouder's warden)

Something to do with lack of dmg on specific targets? Mobility issues? Not enough healing?

And then why was the issues insurmountable?

Your numbers are hella accurate - which is why I gotta pick your brain. But I'm wondering why 9-0-11 (something like that) at 650k damage isn't helpful enough?

Those HP builds weren't effective because the damage was nothing but scoreboard cheese. Lots of low'ish damage AOE hits that easily get healed through, but add up to big numbers at the end of a long BG. And against a good team that actually focus fires, you'll still die without a good healer backing you up - they'll just save you for last. And if you're good enough at escaping, and/or the third team is interfering too much, you'll be mostly ignored and/or CC'd while they kill everyone else and win that way.

The builds with a lot of self-survivability, but very little team healing or (effective) damage just aren't useful in most high MMR Deathmatch games (which is the vast majority of what I end up with when queueing random at high MMR on PC-NA). In disorganized games against weak teams such a build can do fine, but against the "big boys" it's mostly just a nuisance.

I saw some of Rouder's old videos a long time ago, and think I commented basically the same thing on the forum then. He ended up in one really long, drawn out 1v1 at an enemy base, and his opponent was never in any real danger despite Rouder having very high damage numbers at the end of the game. And that's not anything against his playing ability, either - certain builds just aren't all that effective when push comes to shove.

Waffennacht wrote: »

I understand this sentiment completely; and you're right - it's a lot about my preferred style.

I personally would much rather survive against 4 opponents than being able to demolish one or two.

My sorc goes like 6-0 (yeah a mighty 6 kills...) But doesn't die. I much prefer 6-0 over 21-10 (as an example)

I don't see exactly the tool set for a necro to really burst too much down. No sustained pressure and just barely bursty, I feel like Necro is a less offensive DK

The gap in offense between a Mag DK and a Magicka Necromancer is enormous. I know a guy in-game that has a Magicka DK that I don't ever remember seeing him play until Elsweyr - so it's not like he's super duper experienced on it as a main or anything. He's still been able to do > 2m damage in at least 1 BG (and > 1m numerous times), while having good tankability and unbelievably strong self healing (at least in part due to BRP Resto Staff). And those damage numbers aren't from cheesing AOE spam, either - his single target damage is extremely powerful...my Necromancer can't scratch him, and gets wrecked really hard by his offense.

Will his DK hold up in more organized, high MMR games? I'm not sure yet, but its potato-mashing ability is infinitely better than a Magicka Necromancer's is...maybe the Blastbones is just trying to avoid starchy carbs?

Noctus

Waffennacht wrote: »

Huge fan.

I don't see exactly the tool set for a necro to really burst too much down. No sustained pressure and just barely bursty, I feel like Necro is a less offensive DK

thats not it the playstyle is very different. necro is burst heavy but have no sustained pressure as far as i can say. ive reached like 40+ kills in bg with necro but wasnt high mmr i suppose. the dmg done doesnt lie tho its 1+ mill.... u just gotta carefully set up each burst.

wheem_ESO

Noctus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Huge fan.

I don't see exactly the tool set for a necro to really burst too much down. No sustained pressure and just barely bursty, I feel like Necro is a less offensive DK

thats not it the playstyle is very different. necro is burst heavy but have no sustained pressure as far as i can say. ive reached like 40+ kills in bg with necro but wasnt high mmr i suppose. the dmg done doesnt lie tho its 1+ mill.... u just gotta carefully set up each burst.

Is this on Magicka or Stamina? If Magicka, what gear/skills are you using? Without heavy use of AOE cheesing, I don't see Magicka Necromancer reliably getting those sorts of numbers.

Waffennacht

@wheem_ESO how many kills do those millions of damage get?

If a build ganks 20 players, that can be as little as 500k

Noctus

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Will his DK hold up in more organized, high MMR games? I'm not sure yet, but its potato-mashing ability is infinitely better than a Magicka Necromancer's is...maybe the Blastbones is just trying to avoid starchy carbs?

thing is magdk is the epitome of sustained dmg. they never have to drop their offense. in low mmr its probably the best noobkiller.

Noctus

Waffennacht wrote: »

@wheem_ESO how many kills do those millions of damage get?

If a build ganks 20 players, that can be as little as 500k

yes good question

Noctus

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Noctus wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Huge fan.

I don't see exactly the tool set for a necro to really burst too much down. No sustained pressure and just barely bursty, I feel like Necro is a less offensive DK

thats not it the playstyle is very different. necro is burst heavy but have no sustained pressure as far as i can say. ive reached like 40+ kills in bg with necro but wasnt high mmr i suppose. the dmg done doesnt lie tho its 1+ mill.... u just gotta carefully set up each burst.

Is this on Magicka or Stamina? If Magicka, what gear/skills are you using? Without heavy use of AOE cheesing, I don't see Magicka Necromancer reliably getting those sorts of numbers.

secrets my friend.... gotta keep em

https://imgur.com/a/gdH1lBz

wheem_ESO

Waffennacht wrote: »

@wheem_ESO how many kills do those millions of damage get?

If a build ganks 20 players, that can be as little as 500k

On the Mag DK I mentioned? Usually quite a lot of kills/assists and very few, if any, deaths (though, granted, I don't think his MMR is super high yet). Since the damage isn't centered around cheesing it up with AOE, it stands a better chance to do well at high MMR than the aforementioned Warden "Health Builds" did.

Noctus wrote: »

secrets my friend.... gotta keep em

https://imgur.com/a/gdH1lBz

Even being Mag or Stam is a secret, I guess? If that's from a Stamina build, then - with all due respect - it's not particularly impressive. For Magicka, if you're going to try and be all super-secretive on a video game forum, I'll just wave it off as almost certainly due to AOE (and possibly proc set) cheesing on an apparently "glassy" build in a low MMR game.

The offensive toolkit available to Magicka Necromancers isn't so large and varied that one needs a team of scientists in a lab to figure out a solid, viable build while the rest of us ignorant troglodytes just erroneously think that it's trash. There are only so many ways that a Magicka Necromancer is going to consistently hit 1m+ damage in BGs, and so far as I can tell none of them will be effective against decent teams at high MMR.

Waffennacht

@wheem_ESO I was/am looking for a more generalized number. Not specifically your DK - because if we get into specifics we don't have reliable information because the difference could be due to your theoretically superior playing ability.

I've had builds that reached millions of damage but their kill assist numbers were not any different than other builds. And I've had some builds with massively low damage but great kill death assist numbers.

To me it's about kill death assist ratio; of course dealing millions of damage means your significantly contributing but it doesn't give me the full picture

The reasons I ask is because your numbers are dead on; it means your experiences are similar to mine, I want (or need to know) what the necessary pieces for the puzzle to fit together so to speak

Iskiab

All I can think of is similar to the standard stamwarden trick as magicka. Lay down some ground effects for a trap - cast blast bones and time a silver leash into the trap and blastbones.

Waffennacht

Iskiab wrote: »

All I can think of is similar to the standard stamwarden trick as magicka. Lay down some ground effects for a trap - cast blast bones and time a silver leash into the trap and blastbones.

I, uh, should've slotted avid boneyard dur.

So I go like stalking, avid, invasion, synergy, scythe.

Stalking and Avid hit really hard actually

Waffennacht

Hrm the BG went insane on me and now it says I'm unable to queue

DokThor90

When I think about necro, I consider the following:

+Dot damage
+Great purge (I use the 1k Stan/mag)
+"Good healing" If it works
+I Love scythe lol

-bad CC
-bad class offensive
-bad Mobility
-no class precastable defense (shields e.g.).

So I tried to compensate that with 2 builds, the First is:

5x overwhelming (+10%increased dmg - its a dot)
5x Mad tinkerer frontbar (I know lol, but Test IT)
2x Monster of ur choice
1x brp destro backbar (10% increased)

Skills Change a lot, but Wall, scythe, Pulsar are fix. Just think off Pulsar AS master der axes with minor mangle.

The second build IS more a permablock build (purge, high elf, bloodthorne, mazzatun + monster Set which Grants Ressources of Blocking).

I dont wanna build IT Like a max magicka Guy, because it will never ne as good as a magsorc. Sure IT will kill Scrubs, but so does magsorc - But better.

Neloth

DokThor90 wrote: »

When I think about necro, I consider the following:

+Dot damage
+Great purge (I use the 1k Stan/mag)
+"Good healing" If it works
+I Love scythe lol

-bad CC
-bad class offensive
-bad Mobility
-no class precastable defense (shields e.g.).

So I tried to compensate that with 2 builds, the First is:

5x overwhelming (+10%increased dmg - its a dot)
5x Mad tinkerer frontbar (I know lol, but Test IT)
2x Monster of ur choice
1x brp destro backbar (10% increased)

Skills Change a lot, but Wall, scythe, Pulsar are fix. Just think off Pulsar AS master der axes with minor mangle.

The second build IS more a permablock build (purge, high elf, bloodthorne, mazzatun + monster Set which Grants Ressources of Blocking).

I dont wanna build IT Like a max magicka Guy, because it will never ne as good as a magsorc. Sure IT will kill Scrubs, but so does magsorc - But better.

Thats a very good sets idea. I also wanted to compensate lack of magcro offensive skills with proc sets. I tied both cau legacy and icy conjuror, but they seem to be countered too easily. But brp destro and surge are really good ones, which nicely synergise with the class.

I also want to disagree that shock reach CC is a very good one, if you can fit shock staff in your build.

+ colossus ult
&
+ ultigen

are both very good and important class aspects.

DokThor90

Thank you, I think OS and BRP destro will always be in my build, since they synergise Just so Well with necro kitb(+dot dmg, +penetration) and compensate a lot what necro lacks.

I'll Play around with the Monster Set and other five piece, could be really anything from here on, tanky + sustain, proc + tanky, proc + sustain etc. and adjust traits/jewelry ofc. I also so have master lightning, so maybe I'll even consider a 1/1/2/5 setup.

Noctus

Waffennacht wrote: »

Hrm the BG went insane on me and now it says I'm unable to queue

just spam the button on the 10th or 20th click ull eventually get in. its the new queue minigame.

Waffennacht

I had heard Overwhelming got adjusted/nerfed but I never really looked into it

Did it get changed?

Urvoth

The damage is virtually non existent outside of the ult. If you want to be an ult bot and basically do nothing until your ult is up, or if you go healer, you might like it. Otherwise magnecro is a garbage class with no damage or pressure. Good luck beating any semi competent player on any other class in a 1v1 with magnecro.

DokThor90

Waffennacht wrote: »

I had heard Overwhelming got adjusted/nerfed but I never really looked into it

Did it get changed?

Dmg is still good, did they nerf the dmg?

Flips

My magNecro is going to the self. As many writes here, offensively manNecro is weak and I don't find great healing very useful in DM BGs. Most dmg wins.

Going to try a stamNecro now, seems a bit better as I've seen some good opponents.

Mesoz

Flips wrote: »

My magNecro is going to the self. As many writes here, offensively manNecro is weak and I don't find great healing very useful in DM BGs. Most dmg wins.

Going to try a stamNecro now, seems a bit better as I've seen some good opponents.

Stamcro is leagues ahead of magcro, a few different builds you can run. Or you can just run a bash build which is stupidly effective in bgs.

I have been trying hard to make magcro work, and some skill setups can work okish in bgs. Though blast bones fails at doing it's one job 90% of the time anyways. And in cyro, magcro is just 100% useless, unless you want to be a ult bot running around in zergs, which isn't fun.

Waffennacht

Seems niche, but what about harmony with avid? Looking at what... an easy (or modest) 30k tooltip? (The burst damage synergy)