Why does Stamina have so many choices?

The_Lex

Stamsorc came by to say hello, OP.

Mettaricana

CambionDaemon wrote: »

As I have mentioned in other threads, just make all class skills magicka but with different damage types. The game wasn't designed to have stamina morphs, and that is what is causing the balance problems. Just my opinion anyway.

I actually love this idea

Nemesis7884

What zos should have done initially is make any skill automatically scale with your higher resource...this way everyone would get 2 morph choices and you could really make interesting choices...

Mitaka211

Stamina has so many choices? LoL.
Just look any endgame pvp build , there are 3 viable once that are copy paste on all classes if they go stam.
And btw overall there are more magika choices regarding skills. Forgot the actual number but it's a proven fact , so sit down and relax pls.

DKMaestro

FierceSam wrote: »

Just because there are lots of options doesn’t mean they’re any good.

What it might mean is that there is a variety of possible play styles. But the reality of weapon skills is that one will be better than the others and that this will be true for all classes.

And that just means that many of the options are never used. Any stam character needs a ranged attack, so you have to have a bow, while increasingly close up melee toons are being punished with 1 shots.

It’s interesting that the necro has stamina morphs that are essentially Magicka skills in all but name, so at least there’s an attempt to make more class skills viable for a stamina toon. But then if my Magicka necro and stamina necro use essentially the same skills, but one set costs Magicka and one costs stamina, is there actually any difference between them?

This!

Why is there even a split?
Fine so a necromancy ruses stamina to raise the dead....
But now you have two ways of going with the class - one is magical and one is stamina. Except - stamina will chose to use half of the weapon skills available to then, while I, as a magicka user will have destruction staff skills and that’s it..

Drachenfier

disintegr8 wrote: »

I remember when stam was rubbish and everyone ran mag characters....

Yea, that was a thing 4 and a half years ago. Hasn't been since.

Wildberryjack

Stamina builds:

Rearming Trap
Rending Slashes
Rapid Strikes
Whirling Blades
Endless Hail
Razor Caltrops
Poison Injection
Flawless Dawnbreaker and/or Ballista

The few spots left are for two or three class abilities total. Every stamina class build is the same, they all play the same, they may as well be the same class since the bulk of their damage comes from the above list and not their class abilities. In fact you could remove the remaining class abilities and add a couple more weapon skills and it would be just as good.

Marginis

On general points I agree with this thread, but I don't think there's much of a solution outside of completely changing how the game is balanced. It's fine enough the way it is, and while it's not my preferred choice, it works decently enough for the most part. I mean, just as one example, I'd love to use magic on one hand with a sword in the other, but hybrids are just a difficult and niche thing the way ESO is currently balanced. But that's the game, right? In some respects it's kind of like arguing that swords need to be in Call of Duty, or WWI weapons need to be in Halo.

Tan9oSuccka

The_Lex wrote: »

Stamsorc came by to say hello, OP.

Stamina DK as well. There’s two stamina morphs and both are unremarkable at best.

DKMaestro

So if you want to play your class, chose magicka, and if you go stamina, your class doesn't matter and you can freely dip into whatever weapon-line you want - but if you want to be effective, you have to go meta.

Just makes all kinds of no-sense.

I don't have a great solution, but I still feel some classes should basically only cater to either - like magicka for sorcerer and necromancer.
Fine, if you want to make a stamsorc, go ahead, but complaining about class identity and your limited skill choices, is BS.
Sorc is for magicka. Go ahead and use two abilities and call it a stamsorc that are heavily invested in weapon skills and then realize that your class choices might be limited, but you get the freedom of choosing any of three weapon skills, which I, as a magsorc, don't get to.

Edziu

DKMaestro wrote: »

So if you want to play your class, chose magicka, and if you go stamina, your class doesn't matter and you can freely dip into whatever weapon-line you want - but if you want to be effective, you have to go meta.

Just makes all kinds of no-sense.

I don't have a great solution, but I still feel some classes should basically only cater to either - like magicka for sorcerer and necromancer.
Fine, if you want to make a stamsorc, go ahead, but complaining about class identity and your limited skill choices, is BS.
Sorc is for magicka. Go ahead and use two abilities and call it a stamsorc that are heavily invested in weapon skills and then realize that your class choices might be limited, but you get the freedom of choosing any of three weapon skills, which I, as a magsorc, don't get to.

and here you are wrong

it i still very very rare to see anyone in other setup than dual mainbar and bow offbar
its even very rare to see other stamina dps to use any other weapon than dual on main bar and impossible to run with 2 same weapons - main and offbar excluding bow/bow builds which stil arnt to often at all

and to this you will never see anyone in vet content with other 2nd weapon than bow, bow is just must have to use for 2nd weapon for every stamina build so here you is starte limit for stamina builds in pve with not to mention noobody will use 1h&s to dps at all while in reality this would make sense and tbh only 1 skill is with taunt with it so rest could be to choice to use for dps but nobody will do this at all

VaranisArano

Wildberryjack wrote: »

Stamina builds:

Rearming Trap
Rending Slashes
Rapid Strikes
Whirling Blades
Endless Hail
Razor Caltrops
Poison Injection
Flawless Dawnbreaker and/or Ballista

The few spots left are for two or three class abilities total. Every stamina class build is the same, they all play the same, they may as well be the same class since the bulk of their damage comes from the above list and not their class abilities. In fact you could remove the remaining class abilities and add a couple more weapon skills and it would be just as good.

That's good, because there are only around 2 to 3 class abilities that are useful for Stamina on the base game classes...

I'd run more Sorc lightning skills on my Stam Sorc if the damage scaling didnt kill its effectiveness. I really enjoy low level stam sorc play where the lightning is effective at killing things, but for higher level play its just outclassed on a stam build thanks to damage scaling. Hurricane is hands down my favorite skill though, which makes up for some of the lack, personally.

Colecovision

DKMaestro wrote: »

FierceSam wrote: »

Just because there are lots of options doesn’t mean they’re any good.

What it might mean is that there is a variety of possible play styles. But the reality of weapon skills is that one will be better than the others and that this will be true for all classes.

And that just means that many of the options are never used. Any stam character needs a ranged attack, so you have to have a bow, while increasingly close up melee toons are being punished with 1 shots.

It’s interesting that the necro has stamina morphs that are essentially Magicka skills in all but name, so at least there’s an attempt to make more class skills viable for a stamina toon. But then if my Magicka necro and stamina necro use essentially the same skills, but one set costs Magicka and one costs stamina, is there actually any difference between them?

This!

Why is there even a split?
Fine so a necromancy ruses stamina to raise the dead....
But now you have two ways of going with the class - one is magical and one is stamina. Except - stamina will chose to use half of the weapon skills available to then, while I, as a magicka user will have destruction staff skills and that’s it..

What choice are you talking about? I've wanted away from the bow for over 2 years. It's not a choice. The best I can come up with is a back bar using asylum DW and I get a 10k dps loss on an already mediocre dps.

You want actual weapon choices. Fine. But ask for that in spite of the stam situation. Don't ask to be at our level.

The mag version of what stamina has now would be being forced to swap back and forth from a destro staff (bow) to wand (dw). Another lesser choice would be swaping between a destro staff (bow) and a book (2h). You wouldn't be able to use the wand and book together! You also wouldn't be able to use just a wand or just the book. You would have to have the staff still and you'd gimp yourself a little with Destro/ Destro.

I'll add a warning too. Do you know how stupid it would look for your staff to turn into a wand and back again over and over? Gandolph would start the rotation, then you go harry potter, then back to gandolf. Over and over again. Don't stay on gandolf too long or your dps will drop big time.

If you want that. Keep asking for mag to be like stam.

ghastley

You're overlooking the fact that the inferno/frost/lightning staves act as morphs to the destruction staff skills, so the magicka builds can get a change of effect just by swapping to a different staff. You have choices.

Muzzick

Ixilith wrote: »

Tbh I’d like to see Zos add more weapons in future expansions.

I’d wanna see

a scythe.

A polearm or spear.

A crossbow

And more, id really like to see new things for classes to widen options for both magicka and stamina

I would like to see magical gauntlets that work in melee range basically punching dealing Magic damage, maybe they could be dual wield where you could equip one with a shield in Other hand

Tessitura

Solid_Metal wrote: »

RodneyRegis wrote: »

Because they have no class skills. Look at any endgame stam build - dual wield, bow, poison arrow, endless hail, caltrops, trap, rending, blade cloak, flawless, ballista.

Do you think stam are using dual wield or snb? Or is this a PvP nerf thread?

basically this, if you want to make a stamina build, your build inherently will be cookie cutter build, because stam build just mainly use weapon skill and thats it, while magicka build, you can use almost everything, psijic order, mage guild, class skill line, weapon skill line etc

What? Plenty of stam builds make very effective use of fighter guild and Psijic abilities, and some have a decent amount of stame class abilities too.Also in pvp ww is a good stam skill line you can build for too add that to the weapon skills, and their ability to use magicka abilties for buffs. Magicka does not have a magicka dodge or break free, so they usually can't make very effective use of stam buffs since it kills their ability to dodge and break free. Magicka is suffering from the addition of stam class abilities, because other then the one weapon option it's their only real source of damaging abilities. Unfortunately this game 's core class and skill design was flawed from the start, and I know they will never fix it. But some more magicka weapon skills or a rework on mages guild and soul magic skill line would do wonders and allow more class abilities to be stam. Even though spells being cast with stamina is kind of dumb. But who cares anymore, ZoS clearly doesn't.

Goregrinder

Individuality is what sets this MMo apart from all the other carbon copies. I don't want to put on a red T Shirt and blue jeans, show up to a party, and see that half the room is also wearing a red T Shirt and blue Jeans. That is one of the things I got tired of playing WoW...every assassination rogue at the highest level was wearing the same gear, using the same spells, and basically the same talents, and essentially the same "rotation". Carbon copies of each other. That is not fun.

In ESO there are "meta" builds, but not everyone runs those. There is a plethora of choice, and that is what makes ESO special. 10 players of the same class, running 10 completely different setups. Lowers the amount of carbon copies. And it's nice.

DKMaestro

brings me back to my initial gripe.
Don’t chose a class to play and then complain that it doesn’t have stamina abilities, when you have 3 skill lines to chose from. There are classes out there that will let you be stamina based, sorcerer doesn’t have to be one, and isn’t.

And yes. I have heard the argument that stamina doesn’t have any class abilities and thus, need to chose the same 6-8 skills from the weapon lines, along with the few class abilities.

I would argue that you can make great builds with your class abilities. Might not be meta, which doesn’t matter for 90-95% of the people here.
And no - just because you want to call your class a stamsorc, doesn’t mean it is a thing. Sorcs are for magicka. You can have a few stamina abilities and you have a smorgasbord of weapon abilities to supplement with.

TL:DR - if you don’t build for meta, which most don’t need to, you have plenty of options to build a stam toon. Magicka is the class that’s limited, as we have to stay with our class abilities.

Elusiin

VaranisArano wrote: »

Its because ZOS originally designed ESO for everyone to play magicka, with weapons and stamina just being there for flavor.

Obviously, that's changed a lot, especially with the removal of the soft caps and the introduction of magicka/stamina scaling.

And so ZOS is trying to accommodate the magicka/stamina split with new classes because that's obviously what their design goals have shifted to and players expect it, but they havent updated the old classes or weapons to match (in the Elsweyr Q&A, they said their focus was on new content and streamlining old skills, not redoing them.)

IMO,
Magicka builds need more weapon variety.
Stamina builds need more class skill identity.

Wow my thoughts.

Uryel

"Stamina has so many choices" --> Instant loss of credibility, now and for any foreseeable future.