Necro vs Justice

srfrogg23

Ok. I said it previously and I'll say it again: when the criminal acts start racking up while questing, I'll start getting annoyed.

Well, here I am with a 2k bounty I earned just for doing a quest in stone falls, attacking a legitimate target.

Zos, you might want to go run an audit on the old zones. I'm getting sick of being attacked by random friendly NPCs while fighting the monsters that are trying to kill them. It kind of defeats the purpose of saving the peasants when I have turn right around and kill the peasants because they won't stop punching me and calling me a thief because I saved their lives...

Digiman

Maybe if they added a method to get the NPC's to stop attacking you like in other elderscrolls games then that would solve a lot of issues.

Block + y?

Tasear

Which quest? They actually did an audit so this wouldn't happen.

Unij

I see no problem here. Don't use skills marked as criminal act? And you don't even need skills for questing - light attack works too xD.

And even if you are attacked by an npc you don't need to kill it, usually when one attacks me I use an invisibility potion and wait till the npc "forgets" about me.

Elusiin

Tasear wrote: »

Which quest? They actually did an audit so this wouldn't happen.

They missed a lot then. Main quests for Daggerfall Covanent at Alicar Castle in Stormhaven also give issues with necromancer penalties. Thieves Guild quests involving the Iron Wheel also net you penalties. It's a really annoying system, maybe if it was only limited to guards it wouldn't be so bad.

mague

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Ok. I said it previously and I'll see it again: when the criminal acts start racking up while questing, I'll start getting annoyed.

Well, here I am with a 2k bounty I earned just for doing a quest in stone falls, attacking a legitimate target.

Zos, you might want to go run an audit on the old zones. I'm getting sick of being attacked by random friendly NPCs while fighting the monsters that are trying to kill them. It kind of defeats the purpose of saving the peasants when I have turn right around and kill the peasants because they won't stop punching me and calling me a thief because I saved their lives...

I understand you gripe, but why do you people dont get it ? Certain skills are illegal. Why do you insist on using them ???

Look, we do have Sarin Gas and other horrible skills on earth. It is still illegal to use them. Globally !! Why isnt this reaching your minds ??

technohic

I did all the DC story line when leveling and never got attacked or flagged. No I'm trying to remember what skills I used as its possible I didn't use any summons stamcro but I think the Stormhaven quests happen in the northern part and theirs not a lot of civilians there

Elusiin

mague wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Ok. I said it previously and I'll see it again: when the criminal acts start racking up while questing, I'll start getting annoyed.

Well, here I am with a 2k bounty I earned just for doing a quest in stone falls, attacking a legitimate target.

Zos, you might want to go run an audit on the old zones. I'm getting sick of being attacked by random friendly NPCs while fighting the monsters that are trying to kill them. It kind of defeats the purpose of saving the peasants when I have turn right around and kill the peasants because they won't stop punching me and calling me a thief because I saved their lives...

I understand you gripe, but why do you people dont get it ? Certain skills are illegal. Why do you insist on using them ???

Look, we do have Sarin Gas and other horrible skills on earth. It is still illegal to use them. Globally !! Why isnt this reaching your minds ??

This is a common argument used to defend this system. The problem with this argument is that there are multiple necromancer skills considered to be criminal acts, but are required for any build. If I can't use the spirit mender to heal, I will die. It may be hard to understand as someone who is super into immersion and defending this system, but this is simply not fair.

FierceSam

It is annoying.

However, I am a badass Necro and, frankly, a menace to normal Tamriellic society. It’s understandable that petty NPCs would be in awe and afraid of my many abilities to control and manipulate the undead. So much so that they try to ban me and drive my kind underground.

Even as a lowly L25 Necro, I will not be cowed by their feeble attempts to confine and restrict me. I take their bounties and assaults as badges of honour and a confirmation that I am, indeed, the scourge of their realm. Every gold coin added is another merit mark in my dossier of death mongery.

I take their bounties and throw them back in their faces.

I am Necro, hear me roar.

srfrogg23

mague wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Ok. I said it previously and I'll see it again: when the criminal acts start racking up while questing, I'll start getting annoyed.

Well, here I am with a 2k bounty I earned just for doing a quest in stone falls, attacking a legitimate target.

Zos, you might want to go run an audit on the old zones. I'm getting sick of being attacked by random friendly NPCs while fighting the monsters that are trying to kill them. It kind of defeats the purpose of saving the peasants when I have turn right around and kill the peasants because they won't stop punching me and calling me a thief because I saved their lives...

I understand you gripe, but why do you people dont get it ? Certain skills are illegal. Why do you insist on using them ???

Look, we do have Sarin Gas and other horrible skills on earth. It is still illegal to use them. Globally !! Why isnt this reaching your minds ??

Right... don't bother with the comparisons to real world things nonsense. This is a video game. It's about what is a good mechanic versus bad mechanics versus poorly implemented mechanics.

This one was poorly implemented. I was not in a city, or town, or other populated are. I was in an area filled with hostile NPCs and there just happened to be a few of those disposable friendly NPCs in the area. My skeletal image was still out when I ran near them and they all started punching me and calling me a thief.

So I had to kill them to get them to stop, causing my bounty to skyrocket. This is a bad mechanic and poorly implemented.

mague

Elusiin wrote: »

mague wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Ok. I said it previously and I'll see it again: when the criminal acts start racking up while questing, I'll start getting annoyed.

Well, here I am with a 2k bounty I earned just for doing a quest in stone falls, attacking a legitimate target.

Zos, you might want to go run an audit on the old zones. I'm getting sick of being attacked by random friendly NPCs while fighting the monsters that are trying to kill them. It kind of defeats the purpose of saving the peasants when I have turn right around and kill the peasants because they won't stop punching me and calling me a thief because I saved their lives...

I understand you gripe, but why do you people dont get it ? Certain skills are illegal. Why do you insist on using them ???

Look, we do have Sarin Gas and other horrible skills on earth. It is still illegal to use them. Globally !! Why isnt this reaching your minds ??

This is a common argument used to defend this system. The problem with this argument is that there are multiple necromancer skills considered to be criminal acts, but are required for any build. If I can't use the spirit mender to heal, I will die. It may be hard to understand as someone who is super into immersion and defending this system, but this is simply not fair.

Use Scythe. This is an "i win" skill. Should be possible to do a whole public dungeon with scythe only. Ask the templers or dk's

I play stamina necro and still have enough magicka to use Life amid Death, which is a huge burst heal.

Davor

What's next? Vampires shouldn't make you ugly in ESO?

If we are going to change that mechanic, then Zenimax better stop calling them dragons and call them properly, wyrverns.

mague

Davor wrote: »

What's next? Vampires shouldn't make you ugly in ESO?

If we are going to change that mechanic, then Zenimax better stop calling them dragons and call them properly, wyrverns.

True. To be fair: It is tempting. But in "public" a necro has to pretend to be "Mr. Nice Guy". In Dungeons, Trials and PvP he can be as bad as he wants.

It is a good chance to get the mind out of the rotation mill.

Browiseth

mague wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Ok. I said it previously and I'll see it again: when the criminal acts start racking up while questing, I'll start getting annoyed.

Well, here I am with a 2k bounty I earned just for doing a quest in stone falls, attacking a legitimate target.

Zos, you might want to go run an audit on the old zones. I'm getting sick of being attacked by random friendly NPCs while fighting the monsters that are trying to kill them. It kind of defeats the purpose of saving the peasants when I have turn right around and kill the peasants because they won't stop punching me and calling me a thief because I saved their lives...

I understand you gripe, but why do you people dont get it ? Certain skills are illegal. Why do you insist on using them ???

Look, we do have Sarin Gas and other horrible skills on earth. It is still illegal to use them. Globally !! Why isnt this reaching your minds ??

@mague what on earth does sarin gas have to do with anything. is necromancer having criminal act skills considered a real life war crime and is comparable to war crimes now?

what is even happening

tohopka_eso

TBH, either I'm doing something wrong or NPC's are ignoring me. I have yet to get a bounty and I've been using the ability that is a criminal act.

barney2525

I know its a pain, BUT.... its Supposed to be a pain

You have to limit yourself.

My advice:

Front bar Only skills you can use in public, and back bar the "fun" stuff

use responsibly

barney2525

Browiseth wrote: »

mague wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Ok. I said it previously and I'll see it again: when the criminal acts start racking up while questing, I'll start getting annoyed.

Well, here I am with a 2k bounty I earned just for doing a quest in stone falls, attacking a legitimate target.

Zos, you might want to go run an audit on the old zones. I'm getting sick of being attacked by random friendly NPCs while fighting the monsters that are trying to kill them. It kind of defeats the purpose of saving the peasants when I have turn right around and kill the peasants because they won't stop punching me and calling me a thief because I saved their lives...

I understand you gripe, but why do you people dont get it ? Certain skills are illegal. Why do you insist on using them ???

Look, we do have Sarin Gas and other horrible skills on earth. It is still illegal to use them. Globally !! Why isnt this reaching your minds ??

@mague what on earth does sarin gas have to do with anything. is necromancer having criminal act skills considered a real life war crime and is comparable to war crimes now?

what is even happening

I think what he is saying, is that IF some literal life saving situation arose, and a person saved the lives of the locals by using sarin gas, said person would still be considered a monster and run out of town.

UnseenCat

I was leveling up my necro, building up the Blastbones ability while mowing down mobs in an outlying (overland area) Bosmer town that was under attack (Near Marbruk). One of the local Bosmer NPC fighters saw me use Blastbones against a mob, which applied a bounty and he started attacking me. This was an area well out of range of any AD guards, beyond the Marbruk town limits.

Since my necro is my borderline "evil" character, I really didn't have any problem killing the annoying NPC in the interest of expediency. (Squashed him like a bug, actually... ) But it seemed awkward. I just killed a mob that was threatening to kill him, and he up and attacks me. A fear reaction might be more appropriate in the outlying towns and farms that don't have guards -- the manifestation of the justice system -- in them.

ESO's world, like all Elder Scrolls games, is deeply, morally gray. It makes it enjoyable to play "rogue" characters like my main (a Nightblade) who can pilfer from self-righteous irritating NPCs, murder morally bankrupt bandits, and still do "nice" things for quest-givers. "Good" characters like someone RPing as a Templar have it easy. Just don't pickpocket, leave killing innocents turned off in the game options, and always take the "nicest" option in quests even if it might mean paying a little more gold to somebody, or fetching a few more items. But there's very little friction to make that playstyle any different than a roguish one when it comes to combat around NPCs.

I get -- and even like -- the idea of some additional friction for a Necro character which, much like werewolves and vampires, is a pariah in society. But werewolves and vampires don't get bounties from the justice system when they're in legitimate combat in outlying towns and farms that are just overland areas. (These are the towns where you can walk into any NPC house and freely take things out of cabinets and drawers while the NPCs are right there in the house -- no stealing penalty assessed from the justice system.) So why should a necromantic act be any different? It breaks the expected game mechanic of outlying towns and farms being no-man's-land with respect to the justice system.

If Necros are going to be "hard mode" in overland area combat, I can live with it and even enjoy it. But just saying certain skills are "criminal acts" doesn't adequately explain the mechanic as it appears to work now. The expectation is that a criminal act will get you a bounty and NPC attacks just like stealing in towns and areas with justice system guards. NPC attacks are a mechanic to attract the justice system guards in those areas. But in an area where there are no guards and no penalty for taking everything that's not nailed down, the mechanics we're accustomed to leads one to assume that there's no active justice reaction and therefore no limits on necromancy. But that seems to be wrong. Using a Necro criminal skill apparently aggravates NPCs like a failed pickpocket attempt. Which is actually an odd equivalency, when you think about it.

barney2525

UnseenCat wrote: »

I was leveling up my necro, building up the Blastbones ability while mowing down mobs in an outlying (overland area) Bosmer town that was under attack (Near Marbruk). One of the local Bosmer NPC fighters saw me use Blastbones against a mob, which applied a bounty and he started attacking me. This was an area well out of range of any AD guards, beyond the Marbruk town limits.

Since my necro is my borderline "evil" character, I really didn't have any problem killing the annoying NPC in the interest of expediency. (Squashed him like a bug, actually... ) But it seemed awkward. I just killed a mob that was threatening to kill him, and he up and attacks me. A fear reaction might be more appropriate in the outlying towns and farms that don't have guards -- the manifestation of the justice system -- in them.

ESO's world, like all Elder Scrolls games, is deeply, morally gray. It makes it enjoyable to play "rogue" characters like my main (a Nightblade) who can pilfer from self-righteous irritating NPCs, murder morally bankrupt bandits, and still do "nice" things for quest-givers. "Good" characters like someone RPing as a Templar have it easy. Just don't pickpocket, leave killing innocents turned off in the game options, and always take the "nicest" option in quests even if it might mean paying a little more gold to somebody, or fetching a few more items. But there's very little friction to make that playstyle any different than a roguish one when it comes to combat around NPCs.

I get -- and even like -- the idea of some additional friction for a Necro character which, much like werewolves and vampires, is a pariah in society. But werewolves and vampires don't get bounties from the justice system when they're in legitimate combat in outlying towns and farms that are just overland areas. (These are the towns where you can walk into any NPC house and freely take things out of cabinets and drawers while the NPCs are right there in the house -- no stealing penalty assessed from the justice system.) So why should a necromantic act be any different? It breaks the expected game mechanic of outlying towns and farms being no-man's-land with respect to the justice system.

If Necros are going to be "hard mode" in overland area combat, I can live with it and even enjoy it. But just saying certain skills are "criminal acts" doesn't adequately explain the mechanic as it appears to work now. The expectation is that a criminal act will get you a bounty and NPC attacks just like stealing in towns and areas with justice system guards. NPC attacks are a mechanic to attract the justice system guards in those areas. But in an area where there are no guards and no penalty for taking everything that's not nailed down, the mechanics we're accustomed to leads one to assume that there's no active justice reaction and therefore no limits on necromancy. But that seems to be wrong. Using a Necro criminal skill apparently aggravates NPCs like a failed pickpocket attempt. Which is actually an odd equivalency, when you think about it.

Hmmmmm.

As an NPC, Necromancer casts a spell and kills me. Thief pickpockets me and fails.

Seems completely equal to me

8D

worrallj

Elusiin wrote: »

mague wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Ok. I said it previously and I'll see it again: when the criminal acts start racking up while questing, I'll start getting annoyed.

Well, here I am with a 2k bounty I earned just for doing a quest in stone falls, attacking a legitimate target.

Zos, you might want to go run an audit on the old zones. I'm getting sick of being attacked by random friendly NPCs while fighting the monsters that are trying to kill them. It kind of defeats the purpose of saving the peasants when I have turn right around and kill the peasants because they won't stop punching me and calling me a thief because I saved their lives...

I understand you gripe, but why do you people dont get it ? Certain skills are illegal. Why do you insist on using them ???

Look, we do have Sarin Gas and other horrible skills on earth. It is still illegal to use them. Globally !! Why isnt this reaching your minds ??

This is a common argument used to defend this system. The problem with this argument is that there are multiple necromancer skills considered to be criminal acts, but are required for any build. If I can't use the spirit mender to heal, I will die. It may be hard to understand as someone who is super into immersion and defending this system, but this is simply not fair.

I know people hate hearing this, but if you will die questing in stormhaven without a particular skill, then maybe you do need to "learn to play."

There are TONS of skills both defensive and offensive to choose from. Even if every necro skill was criminal, just do a weapon skill build and that should be just fine for "Alicar castle."

SpacemanSpiff1

Don't use illegal spells around guards and civilians. I'm midway through leveling my second necromancer and haven't gotten any bounties from using abilities.

Matthew_Galvanus

i mean, i get through the overland stuff just fine weaving ricochet skulls and light attacks.

bmnoble

They clearly mark which skills will give a bounty, you don't need those skills in every fight, especially in overland content.

Matthew_Galvanus

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

Don't use illegal spells around guards and civilians. I'm midway through leveling my second necromancer and haven't gotten any bounties from using abilities.

the only time i ever got a bounty was because i purposefully cast one in front of them just to see how much of a bounty i would get.

srfrogg23

bmnoble wrote: »

They clearly mark which skills will give a bounty, you don't need those skills in every fight, especially in overland content.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of playing a Necromancer?

Here's some cool abilities specific to this class. Just don't use them in quest areas outside the major cities because you'll be punished by guards on the other side of the map if a random NPC in BFE nowhere sees you.

Yes. Flawlessly designed, well thought out, gameplay.

Vercingetorix

I've honestly given up trying to get the Necromancer fixed. After the PTS ended, ZoS released a "wrap-up" article that basically said they never had any intentions of ever changing the Necromancer - that was the red flag. I'm not going to use the Necromancer. For those of you who enjoy needlessly bashing your heads into a brick wall for recreation, by all means continue to utilize this incomplete, poorly implemented class.

Matthew_Galvanus

Vercingetorix wrote: »

I've honestly given up trying to get the Necromancer fixed. After the PTS ended, ZoS released a "wrap-up" article that basically said they never had any intentions of ever changing the Necromancer - that was the red flag. I'm not going to use the Necromancer. For those of you who enjoy needlessly bashing your heads into a brick wall for recreation, by all means continue to utilize this incomplete, poorly implemented class.

your opinion only.

Xerikten

if you are a necro complaining the fault is yours

if you are doing a dark brotherhood quest the fault is yours.

srfrogg23

Xerikten wrote: »

if you are a necro complaining the fault is yours

if you are doing a dark brotherhood quest the fault is yours.

Yes. Using abilities comparable to the sorcerer pets in taboo-ness in an area away from civilization should absolutely mean that I should be punished by guards halfway around the world because all NPCs share a telepathic link.

Now that I think about it, summoning daedra should be a criminal offense, too, along with casting any spell or ability that could potentially harm a random NPC in any quest area. That would make for super fun and immersive gameplay!

"Did you just kill all those evil monsters and save the day? Congratulations, hero, here's your 5k bounty! Watch out, the guards will attack you on sight, btw..."

This system needs to be reworked. Not defended.

Goregrinder

Back during SWG Pre-CU days, Jedi who used lightsabers around other players were automatically put on the bounty hunter terminals, where players who grab a mission and hunt a Jedi. So as jedi, you could use any other weapon and not get put on the terminals...OR you could go out in the middle of nowhere, and whip your saber out in peace.

This is sort of similar, but WAAAY easier to manage. I believe you just don't use any spells in town that would be considered a criminal act. The moment you're about to press an ability just tell yourself "waaait wait....let me check this spelll really quick...yep it's a criminal act spells, I had better hold off on clicking this until I am a few klicks away......alright I am far enough away now, let me go ahead and click this cool ability!"

srfrogg23

Goregrinder wrote: »

Back during SWG Pre-CU days, Jedi who used lightsabers around other players were automatically put on the bounty hunter terminals, where players who grab a mission and hunt a Jedi. So as jedi, you could use any other weapon and not get put on the terminals...OR you could go out in the middle of nowhere, and whip your saber out in peace.

This is sort of similar, but WAAAY easier to manage. I believe you just don't use any spells in town that would be considered a criminal act. The moment you're about to press an ability just tell yourself "waaait wait....let me check this spelll really quick...yep it's a criminal act spells, I had better hold off on clicking this until I am a few klicks away......alright I am far enough away now, let me go ahead and click this cool ability!"

This didn't happen in town. It was out in the wilderness. There just happen to be random NPCs wandering around the quest areas in old zones.