Are Weapon Enchants bugged?

ArchMikem

I just tried enchanting my infused weapon with a glyph of crushing. Glyph said the usual reduce resistances by 1600, but when i applied it the value went down to 1013. I lost 600 value, why did it drop?

And this was a gold 160 glyph on a purple 160 weapon.

kringled_1

It's a 1H weapon. Since Wrathstone, enchants are halved on 1H.

ArchMikem

kringled_1 wrote: »

It's a 1H weapon. Since Wrathstone, enchants are halved on 1H.

thats like a direct nerf to Tanks?

paulychan

Ya, it's pretty rough.
Tanks are backbarring staves more these days to get the full crusher

Vermethys

As far as I know, the nerf was meant for DW users (both PvE and PvP), the hit to tanks was collateral damage. Just like the recent cooldown on immoblizations.

max_only

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/459810/tanks-without-blockade-or-endless-hail-kick-from-group/p1

Tanks have been “adapting”. It’s terrible change and they should just put a passive in the 1h&s skill line that enables full strength enchants. Halving enchants on 1h weapons was yet another pvp “adjustment” that negatively affects the rest of the game.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

ArchMikem wrote: »

I just tried enchanting my infused weapon with a glyph of crushing. Glyph said the usual reduce resistances by 1600, but when i applied it the value went down to 1013. I lost 600 value, why did it drop?

And this was a gold 160 glyph on a purple 160 weapon.

That exists since Wrathstone as a nerf to DW.
If you tank, don't bother even with infused. Put Defending or Decisive trait on your 1H weapon on both bars.
I personally found Decisive is great for DK tanks, as they double the Ultimate generation, making the Magma Cell almost spammable.

And nobody absolutely nobody should force you to use ice staff if complains.
The 600 crushing is pitiful and only saves off 1 second from the vet trials boss fights, on those groups going for Leaderboard scores.

For 99.90% of the rest, shouldn't care less. It only takes 1 DD to die or slack a bit, and makes the whole point to save 1 second, pointless.

Deloth_Vyrr

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

And nobody absolutely nobody should force you to use ice staff if complains.

No they should actually be using a Lightning Staff, boosts DPS more by improving uptimes for minor vulnerability and offbalance with blockade in addition to adding 600 extra pen over a 1H (more if using Torugs). This was already something being done by top tier tanks before the 1H enchant nerf anyway, but now it's even more important.

600 pen worth the same as almost 10 CP into Spell Erosion or Piercing, per player, and contributes several thousand extra dps, per player, in a trial setting. DPS also factor in the full contribution of an Infused Torug's Crusher enchant when determining in how much Pen they need to have as part of their build to reach the pen cap.

Tsar_Gekkou

paulychan wrote: »

Ya, it's pretty rough.
Tanks are backbarring staves more these days to get the full crusher

I wonder if Zos is gonna nerf this after a while as well?

russelmmendoza

Zos are sorc lovers.
They gonna nerf everything to uselessness, until sorc rules eso.

Mark my words!!!

Now go buy more crowns.

Banana

Switch to poisons

FrancisCrawford

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

600 pen ... contributes several thousand extra dps, per player, in a trial setting.

I didn't realize trial bosses were so under-penetrated as to make that arithmetic work!

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

And nobody absolutely nobody should force you to use ice staff if complains.

600 pen worth the same as almost 10 CP into Spell Erosion or Piercing, per player, and contributes several thousand extra dps, per player, in a trial setting. DPS also factor in the full contribution of an Infused Torug's Crusher enchant when determining in how much Pen they need to have as part of their build to reach the pen cap.

Make your mind what sets you want the tank you wear. Torug or Alkosh or Yolnahkriin or Ebon or Imperium.
At what point in time a Tank should start looking for his role to absorb damage and survive?
Have you see the effects of using staves recently with tanks?
If they are forced to take a big hit while wielding staff, they die almost instantly. I rather find more appealing use 2H and cast brawler for the DS, and it would still apply full crushing.

And your contribution about "thousands extra damage" please show us the maths. Don't write big numbers trying to make a false point.

The loss of Crushing provides a pitiful amount of debuff. By only having Major Fracture/Breach and Minor Fracture/Breach plus the small crushing from the 1H 1370 (infused no torug), result to almost 8000 crushing.
All Magicka players are over penetrating without even using Lover mundus.
All stamina players having allocated their CP properly are 1300-1700 penetration short, so not a huge amount of damage loss.
Can be substituted it from the infused main hand to penetration trait, especially the DW which are the majority, as the wrathstone nerf affects the damage glyphs also.

So your turn now to show me your maths of the thousands of damage per second lost.

Gnozo

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Zos are stamblade lovers.
They gonna nerf everything to uselessness, until stamblades rules eso.

Mark my words!!!

Now go buy more crowns.

I have corrected it for you.

Vapirko

Vermethys wrote: »

As far as I know, the nerf was meant for DW users (both PvE and PvP), the hit to tanks was collateral damage. Just like the recent cooldown on immoblizations.

And instead of making a full strength mainhand enchant that would have been the simple suggestion ZOS just went 🤷🏻‍♂️

darkblue5

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

And nobody absolutely nobody should force you to use ice staff if complains.

600 pen worth the same as almost 10 CP into Spell Erosion or Piercing, per player, and contributes several thousand extra dps, per player, in a trial setting. DPS also factor in the full contribution of an Infused Torug's Crusher enchant when determining in how much Pen they need to have as part of their build to reach the pen cap.

Make your mind what sets you want the tank you wear. Torug or Alkosh or Yolnahkriin or Ebon or Imperium.
At what point in time a Tank should start looking for his role to absorb damage and survive?
Have you see the effects of using staves recently with tanks?
If they are forced to take a big hit while wielding staff, they die almost instantly. I rather find more appealing use 2H and cast brawler for the DS, and it would still apply full crushing.

And your contribution about "thousands extra damage" please show us the maths. Don't write big numbers trying to make a false point.

The loss of Crushing provides a pitiful amount of debuff. By only having Major Fracture/Breach and Minor Fracture/Breach plus the small crushing from the 1H 1370 (infused no torug), result to almost 8000 crushing.
All Magicka players are over penetrating without even using Lover mundus.
All stamina players having allocated their CP properly are 1300-1700 penetration short, so not a huge amount of damage loss.
Can be substituted it from the infused main hand to penetration trait, especially the DW which are the majority, as the wrathstone nerf affects the damage glyphs also.

So your turn now to show me your maths of the thousands of damage per second lost.

2-hander won't carry over to front bar because there are no AOE dots which are what carry the enchant over. Brawler/Carve/Light Attacks would need to be cast every 5 seconds to keep up Crusher at full value which is not viable.
Bow with Endless Hail and Staves with Wall of Elements work.

Crusher is 1622.
For full enchant infused is 1622*1.3=2108.6, Torug's without infused is also 1622*1.3=2108.6, and both together is 1622*1.3*1.3=2741.18.
For half enchant Crusher is 811.
For half infused 811*1.3=1054.3, half Torug's is also 811*1.3=1054.3, and half infused Torug's is 811*1.3*1.3=1370.59.
Pretty sure all the values are always rounded down to the nearest whole number.

For both 1h and 2h Infused and Torug's the total difference in penetration is 2741-1370=1371. Comparing full Infused Torug's to 1h infused crusher is 2741-1054=1687. Finally full Infused Torug's Crusher to just 1h Crusher is a 2741-811=1930.

So the closest a 1h crusher enchant is to the full Torug's enchant is 1371 penetration away.
The furthest while still using crusher on the 1h is 1930 penetration.

1371 resistances is equivalent to (1371/500)/100%=2.742% mitigation.
If each of the eight dps is doing 80k dps, 8*80k dps is 640k dps. If 640k dps is reduced by 2.7 percent it goes to 627.2k dps or 640k*0.973=622.72k.
So the dps loss is 12.8k dps. 640k-622.72k=17.28k .

If each dps is merely doing 40k dps it would still be a 8.64k dps loss. That's using the highest 1h crusher value.

All that dps loss could be mitigated by some CP with 52.8 penetration per CP. The difference is still like giving each dps 26 extra CP to put into penetration. The 810 CP cap would technically have to be raised to something like 888 CP for DPS to get to put in that many points in the correct tree. 888 is a pretty lucky number I guess.

Run totally casually and you won't care. You still might actually notice the dps difference even there. 2.7% mitigation sounds low but turns into an actual noticeable difference like how you can clearly see athletes far ahead of each other in races where the time difference is in the milliseconds. Moving 26 CP from other damage dealing stars will result in a dps loss although estimating how much exactly is beyond my knowledge. Even the most generous assumptions would result in dps losses in the thousands. Even for relatively low dps groups. Like if it is somehow only a 0.5% dps loss after moving CP the 40k group would still lose 1.6k dps. Barely in the thousands but in the thousands.

That's all assuming you're using the closest 1h set up to the full enchant. Which requires running Infused and Torug's to increase an enchantment that is cut in half by 69%.

Just run a staff or a bow. In a game of small margins the full Infused Torug's Crusher enchantment is a fairly substantial margin.

Edit: Edited for correct PVE mitigation from resists.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@darkblue5 pve mobs are level 50, so you divide by 500, not 660 like with players.

darkblue5

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

@darkblue5 pve mobs are level 50, so you divide by 500, not 660 like with players.

RIP me . ty!

barney2525

huh. I and I just thought my crafter stunk


guess I shouldn't have fired him

drat

barney2525

russelmmendoza wrote: »

Zos are sorc lovers.
They gonna nerf everything to uselessness, until sorc rules eso.

Mark my words!!!

Now go buy more crowns.

Hello boys and girls

Can you say "Conspiracy" ?


Goooood


8)

Merlight

darkblue5 wrote: »

Like if it is somehow only a 0.5% dps loss after moving CP the 40k group would still lose 1,600 dps. Barely in the thousands but in the thousands.

Group dps. The disputed comment was that "600 pen ... contributes several thousand extra dps, per player". For that to be true, each player would need to do several hundred thousand dps.

darkblue5

Merlight wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Like if it is somehow only a 0.5% dps loss after moving CP the 40k group would still lose 1,600 dps. Barely in the thousands but in the thousands.

Group dps. The disputed comment was that "600 pen ... contributes several thousand extra dps, per player". For that to be true, each player would need to do several hundred thousand dps.

At ~95-100k dos per player you're hitting 2.5k+ dps loss for the full 2.7% loss of comparing the best case scenario for 1h crusher enchants to what you'd use in an actual trial. Which is kinder than the comment suggests even if the math on pen difference is off.

Difference between full Infused Torug's and the actual reference of a 1h infused crusher is 1687. (1687/500)/100%=3.374% mitigation. At 80k dps that'd be a 2699.2 dps loss. At 95k dps a 3205.3 dps loss etc. Obviously CP could be moved and the loss mitigated but that also isn't in the original quote.

TLDR: It is only a slight exaggeration to say that several thousand dps would be lost and you only push it down into under 1000k dps per damage dealer if you make fairly favorable assumptions about how well you could mitigate the loss of a decent amount of the total needed penetration.

Edit: P.S. Just backbar a staff or a bow. The skill you need unlocks in about one overland fight. You can put points in the frost staff passive if you feel you need the block mitigation and can stand the magicka loss. Just do it. It is the easiest increase in total group dps that you can make. Especially if you're using the very accessible Torug's Pact build because you don't have Alkosh.

D0PAMINE

ArchMikem wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

It's a 1H weapon. Since Wrathstone, enchants are halved on 1H.

thats like a direct nerf to Tanks?

Personally, i've found using a staff backbar to be helpful. I started using a Lightning Staff with Inner Rage and im liking having a ranged heavy attack and weaving while chain spamming a boss during the last 10% of health.

Red_Feather

I remember a suggestion was to include a passive in 1 hand and shield skill line to allow enchantments to get more effectiveness to counter the dual wield enchantment nerfing.

Deloth_Vyrr

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Make your mind what sets you want the tank you wear. Torug or Alkosh or Yolnahkriin or Ebon or Imperium.

While the gear setup for tanks can fluctuate from trial to trial. Generally speaking I like to have one tank run Torugs/Alkosh and the other to run Yoln/Alkosh. Swapping out Torug for Ebon for fights where it's needed, but these days a lot of healers are putting together an Ebon set to run so a tank doesn't have to.

Also thanks @darkblue5 for running the math for me. I may have stretched by claim a bit, but any good performing dps will see a 1000+ dps loss, with much higher losses at higher dps levels.

While my exact claim may have been an exaggeration, the point still stands. Even a conservative 1200 dps loss per player is almost a 10k group dps loss across a group of 8 dps. The point is, the difference is by no means:

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

pitiful and only saves off 1 second from the vet trials boss fights...

Tasear

Vermethys wrote: »

As far as I know, the nerf was meant for DW users (both PvE and PvP), the hit to tanks was collateral damage. Just like the recent cooldown on immoblizations.

There's cooldown on immoblizations?

Vermethys

Tasear wrote: »

There's cooldown on immoblizations?

Yeah, enemy NPCs now get 3 seconds of immunity to immobilizations after you root them with abilities like Talons, Gripping Shards, or Ice Blockade.

IronWooshu

ArchMikem wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

It's a 1H weapon. Since Wrathstone, enchants are halved on 1H.

thats like a direct nerf to Tanks?

more of an indirect nerf seeing as how they halved the damage of enchants to tone down dual wield but completely overlooked sword and shield.

killahsin

during murkmire the crybaby community in masses of outrage specifically requested this change and so as per normal this is another nerf that was requested by the players that was detrimental to the game. As usual the community then blames zenimax for implementing the requested change is shocked that now only staves are viable and so begins again the loop of more crying from the community.

Streamers and content creators have way to much power over development teams by focusing the communities voice through the outrage mechanic.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

darkblue5 wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Deloth_Vyrr wrote: »

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

And nobody absolutely nobody should force you to use ice staff if complains.

600 pen worth the same as almost 10 CP into Spell Erosion or Piercing, per player, and contributes several thousand extra dps, per player, in a trial setting. DPS also factor in the full contribution of an Infused Torug's Crusher enchant when determining in how much Pen they need to have as part of their build to reach the pen cap.

Make your mind what sets you want the tank you wear. Torug or Alkosh or Yolnahkriin or Ebon or Imperium.
At what point in time a Tank should start looking for his role to absorb damage and survive?
Have you see the effects of using staves recently with tanks?
If they are forced to take a big hit while wielding staff, they die almost instantly. I rather find more appealing use 2H and cast brawler for the DS, and it would still apply full crushing.

And your contribution about "thousands extra damage" please show us the maths. Don't write big numbers trying to make a false point.

The loss of Crushing provides a pitiful amount of debuff. By only having Major Fracture/Breach and Minor Fracture/Breach plus the small crushing from the 1H 1370 (infused no torug), result to almost 8000 crushing.
All Magicka players are over penetrating without even using Lover mundus.
All stamina players having allocated their CP properly are 1300-1700 penetration short, so not a huge amount of damage loss.
Can be substituted it from the infused main hand to penetration trait, especially the DW which are the majority, as the wrathstone nerf affects the damage glyphs also.

So your turn now to show me your maths of the thousands of damage per second lost.

2-hander won't carry over to front bar because there are no AOE dots which are what carry the enchant over. Brawler/Carve/Light Attacks would need to be cast every 5 seconds to keep up Crusher at full value which is not viable.
Bow with Endless Hail and Staves with Wall of Elements work.

Crusher is 1622.
For full enchant infused is 1622*1.3=2108.6, Torug's without infused is also 1622*1.3=2108.6, and both together is 1622*1.3*1.3=2741.18.
For half enchant Crusher is 811.
For half infused 811*1.3=1054.3, half Torug's is also 811*1.3=1054.3, and half infused Torug's is 811*1.3*1.3=1370.59.
Pretty sure all the values are always rounded down to the nearest whole number.

For both 1h and 2h Infused and Torug's the total difference in penetration is 2741-1370=1371. Comparing full Infused Torug's to 1h infused crusher is 2741-1054=1687. Finally full Infused Torug's Crusher to just 1h Crusher is a 2741-811=1930.

So the closest a 1h crusher enchant is to the full Torug's enchant is 1371 penetration away.
The furthest while still using crusher on the 1h is 1930 penetration.

1371 resistances is equivalent to (1371/500)/100%=2.742% mitigation.
If each of the eight dps is doing 80k dps, 8*80k dps is 640k dps. If 640k dps is reduced by 2.7 percent it goes to 627.2k dps or 640k*0.973=622.72k.
So the dps loss is 12.8k dps. 640k-622.72k=17.28k .

If each dps is merely doing 40k dps it would still be a 8.64k dps loss. That's using the highest 1h crusher value.

All that dps loss could be mitigated by some CP with 52.8 penetration per CP. The difference is still like giving each dps 26 extra CP to put into penetration. The 810 CP cap would technically have to be raised to something like 888 CP for DPS to get to put in that many points in the correct tree. 888 is a pretty lucky number I guess.

Run totally casually and you won't care. You still might actually notice the dps difference even there. 2.7% mitigation sounds low but turns into an actual noticeable difference like how you can clearly see athletes far ahead of each other in races where the time difference is in the milliseconds. Moving 26 CP from other damage dealing stars will result in a dps loss although estimating how much exactly is beyond my knowledge. Even the most generous assumptions would result in dps losses in the thousands. Even for relatively low dps groups. Like if it is somehow only a 0.5% dps loss after moving CP the 40k group would still lose 1.6k dps. Barely in the thousands but in the thousands.

That's all assuming you're using the closest 1h set up to the full enchant. Which requires running Infused and Torug's to increase an enchantment that is cut in half by 69%.

Just run a staff or a bow. In a game of small margins the full Infused Torug's Crusher enchantment is a fairly substantial margin.

Edit: Edited for correct PVE mitigation from resists.

You missed the point, trying to overthink and prove your argument right.....
Vet mobs do not have unlimited resistances as you imply. They have a set value which is 18300.

When that value is gone, you overpen which means nothing and is waste of resources.
Magicka based damage dealers properly configured, over pen with just Major & Minor Breach/Fracture plus the "new reduced" Crushing.
Stamina based damage dealers, are around 1000-1500 penetration short to over penetrate. A weapon trait for penetration removed the last penetration, since front bar infused is weakened either way on DW. A 2H uses Maul so no issue here.

And all these are relevant to Leaderboards runs only. Which are for you, not the OP not the significant majority of the player base.

Aznarb

paulychan wrote: »

Ya, it's pretty rough.
Tanks are backbarring staves more these days to get the full crusher

Yup and for those like in my guild who don't like the feeling to play with staff in backbar and stick to 1h/shield, I use crusher on my healer backbar (we've lot of sorcerer so no problem for minor vulnerability) to get the debuff up.