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StamNB doomsday-spreading needs to stop(Both PvE/PvP). Every StamNB playstyle is still viable.
susmitds
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Hey there, I will start by saying I am a StamNB main, who also plays other classes but stamblade is the one I played the most since 2014.
I am seeing widespread rumors and fearmongering by other stamina NBs that class is dead, useless and other BS. Well, lets have a detailed look at it and see if that's true at all.
For PvP, mitigation is king in any kind of build and the damage loss from Grim Focus is a good trade, given stamina NBs don't rely on the bow proc and can afford to hold it till it is absolutely needed to secure a kill. We can shuffle sets(unless we are already totally glass cannon to begin with)and maintain the same baseline damage. For example, my roller-cloaker medium bleedblade and my roller-cloaker standard 2h/bowblade both used one damage set, one defensive set and one utility/sustain set. Now I simply run two new damage sets and one utility set and have more damage, with slightly higher defense but lesser sustain.
For Brawler builds, the new Dark Cloak heals for 6% HP eight times ticking every 1 second. It also gives Minor Protection for the duration. In comparison, the old Dark Cloak healed for 9% Hp four times ticking every 0.9 sec. While the old Dark Cloak was bursty, it gave Minor Protection for just 3.6 secs, compared to the new one's 8. The old Dark Cloak could not be kept up permanently but the new one can be easily kept up at all times and stacking with the new mitigation can open up offensive windows for longer periods and stacks with Rally/Vigor for a good baseline self-HPS.
Moving onto Surprise Attack, loss of Major Fracture is definitely a nerf. We got Ambush with Minor Vulnerability with same damage increase though which affects everything including bleeds, unlike Major Fracture. But I know all builds don't have barspace for Ambush so also considering the Minor Berserk loss, taking it as a nerf on the whole.
However, prior to the change, many good StamNBs used Steel Tornado as spammable too. So, lets say, if StamNBs had another spammable that does twice the base damage of the old Steel Tornado at all times, instead of just execute, with similar range, lower cost and other utility, it would be a great spammable as well. Voila, there comes Power Extraction, the AoE skill with the highest raw damage. Also, BTW Power Extraction was a pretty good spammable even before Elsweyr. So if you use Power Extraction instead of Surprise Attack, the nerf does not affect you anyways.
Sure, if you approach the NB like before, it is probably harder. But, if you adapt and start anew, NB is better than ever.
Also, one thing, I have been hearing a lot nowadays is NB is pigeon-holed into Heavy Armor S&B/2H for success in PvP and can not rely on purely damage anymore. For that is certainly one way, I beg to differ. Here are some examples of what it can do. I will start with a roller-cloaker DW/2H medium build.
Roller-Cloaker Blade build no-CP damage stats
Roller-Cloaker Blade build damage stats
Medium high-sustain Brawler Blade with nearly capped resists damage stats
As you can see, you don't need Minor Berserk to deal crazy damage, you can use the mitigation to give you that offensive window to go all out.
Ganker builds
You can see the crazy damage I can push on a standard roller-cloaker NB which is not even close to glass cannon with fairly good resists and sustain investments. On a ganker build, you will still have access to Minor Berserk with Camouflaged Hunter. Few pure gank builds use Surprise Attack as part of the gank combo, it technically remains the same.
For high-end group PvE, only thing that is nerfed is a slight drop in Minor Berserk uptime, which is made up by gain of DPS by the new Dark Shade. With the longer duration, we will get five bow procs per Relentless Focus cast, instead of three, decreasing a bit of micro-management. Sure, we now have to add another DoT on top of probably the hardest rotation in the game and getting five bow procs per cast needs flawless rotation, but should we manage it, we should hit numbers higher than earlier patch.
For those of us in low and mid-tier DPS ranges, the main reason we have lower DPS is bad weaving, micromanagement and holding the bow Proc without noticing when it procs. So, the longer duration of Relentless Focus will help us get three-four bow procs on average instead of just one or two which increases DPS more than Minor Berserk does. Should we fail to use the bow proc in time, the added mitigation should be active quite often and help us die less and in PvE, the bow proc is a full-heal. And as they say, dead DPS is zero DPS. Also the new Shade does more damage than Rending Slashes, has a longer duration and is visually easier to notice. So if we are not confident to drop Vigor, we should drop Rending Slashes, which will save us stamina as it uses Magicka, which combined with Reave on Incap Strike gives more sustain than 71 stamina recovery.
For vMA, replace Surprise Attack with Power Extraction on non final-boss rounds, replace Rending Slashes with Ambush(8% damage from Minor Vulnerability is more damage than Rending Slashes DoT), replace Vigor with Reaper's Mark, which gives Major Fracture, a burst heal when something dies with 5 seconds of Major Berserk, which you can have a very significant uptime of as you will be mowing things down all around with Power Extraction. This setup is stronger than StamNB vMA setup on prior patches and it is totally possible to survive with Siphoning Attacks heal, Bow proc burst heal, which actually works like a Burst Heal in PvE, Reaper's Mark burst heal and Killer's Blade heal.
Edited by susmitds on May 24, 2019 7:09PM I am seeing widespread rumors and fearmongering by other stamina NBs that class is dead, useless and other BS. Well, lets have a detailed look at it and see if that's true at all.
Grim Focus Changes
Firstly, I will state that Minor Berserk does not give it's full 8% extra damage due to buff stacking works. It is more like 5.5% dmg increase on average.
8% stamina recovery loss = 71 stamina recovery(standard PvE build) to 121 stamina recovery(PvP build with buffed stamina recovery without it at 1982 value). Average - 96 stamina recovery
Loss - 5.5% damage+96 stamina recovery for 20 sec
Gain - Upto 15% mitigation for infinite duration that needs 5 LAs. 10 sec increase in duration.
8% stamina recovery loss = 71 stamina recovery(standard PvE build) to 121 stamina recovery(PvP build with buffed stamina recovery without it at 1982 value). Average - 96 stamina recovery
Loss - 5.5% damage+96 stamina recovery for 20 sec
Gain - Upto 15% mitigation for infinite duration that needs 5 LAs. 10 sec increase in duration.
PvP
For PvP, mitigation is king in any kind of build and the damage loss from Grim Focus is a good trade, given stamina NBs don't rely on the bow proc and can afford to hold it till it is absolutely needed to secure a kill. We can shuffle sets(unless we are already totally glass cannon to begin with)and maintain the same baseline damage. For example, my roller-cloaker medium bleedblade and my roller-cloaker standard 2h/bowblade both used one damage set, one defensive set and one utility/sustain set. Now I simply run two new damage sets and one utility set and have more damage, with slightly higher defense but lesser sustain.
For Brawler builds, the new Dark Cloak heals for 6% HP eight times ticking every 1 second. It also gives Minor Protection for the duration. In comparison, the old Dark Cloak healed for 9% Hp four times ticking every 0.9 sec. While the old Dark Cloak was bursty, it gave Minor Protection for just 3.6 secs, compared to the new one's 8. The old Dark Cloak could not be kept up permanently but the new one can be easily kept up at all times and stacking with the new mitigation can open up offensive windows for longer periods and stacks with Rally/Vigor for a good baseline self-HPS.
Moving onto Surprise Attack, loss of Major Fracture is definitely a nerf. We got Ambush with Minor Vulnerability with same damage increase though which affects everything including bleeds, unlike Major Fracture. But I know all builds don't have barspace for Ambush so also considering the Minor Berserk loss, taking it as a nerf on the whole.
However, prior to the change, many good StamNBs used Steel Tornado as spammable too. So, lets say, if StamNBs had another spammable that does twice the base damage of the old Steel Tornado at all times, instead of just execute, with similar range, lower cost and other utility, it would be a great spammable as well. Voila, there comes Power Extraction, the AoE skill with the highest raw damage. Also, BTW Power Extraction was a pretty good spammable even before Elsweyr. So if you use Power Extraction instead of Surprise Attack, the nerf does not affect you anyways.
Sure, if you approach the NB like before, it is probably harder. But, if you adapt and start anew, NB is better than ever.
Also, one thing, I have been hearing a lot nowadays is NB is pigeon-holed into Heavy Armor S&B/2H for success in PvP and can not rely on purely damage anymore. For that is certainly one way, I beg to differ. Here are some examples of what it can do. I will start with a roller-cloaker DW/2H medium build.
Roller-Cloaker Blade build no-CP damage stats
Roller-Cloaker Blade build damage stats
Medium high-sustain Brawler Blade with nearly capped resists damage stats
As you can see, you don't need Minor Berserk to deal crazy damage, you can use the mitigation to give you that offensive window to go all out.
Ganker builds
You can see the crazy damage I can push on a standard roller-cloaker NB which is not even close to glass cannon with fairly good resists and sustain investments. On a ganker build, you will still have access to Minor Berserk with Camouflaged Hunter. Few pure gank builds use Surprise Attack as part of the gank combo, it technically remains the same.
Invoke your expertise in anatomy and enemy behavior to detect stealthed and invisible enemies around you for 5 seconds. Exposed enemies cannot return to stealth or invisibility for 3 seconds While slotted you gain Major Savagery, increasing your Weapon Critical rating by 2191. You also gain Minor Berserk for 5 seconds after you deal Critical Damage from Sneak, increasing your damage done by 8% - Which class do you think can use this to its full extent? Virtually nobody apart from StamNB
PvE
For high-end group PvE, only thing that is nerfed is a slight drop in Minor Berserk uptime, which is made up by gain of DPS by the new Dark Shade. With the longer duration, we will get five bow procs per Relentless Focus cast, instead of three, decreasing a bit of micro-management. Sure, we now have to add another DoT on top of probably the hardest rotation in the game and getting five bow procs per cast needs flawless rotation, but should we manage it, we should hit numbers higher than earlier patch.
For those of us in low and mid-tier DPS ranges, the main reason we have lower DPS is bad weaving, micromanagement and holding the bow Proc without noticing when it procs. So, the longer duration of Relentless Focus will help us get three-four bow procs on average instead of just one or two which increases DPS more than Minor Berserk does. Should we fail to use the bow proc in time, the added mitigation should be active quite often and help us die less and in PvE, the bow proc is a full-heal. And as they say, dead DPS is zero DPS. Also the new Shade does more damage than Rending Slashes, has a longer duration and is visually easier to notice. So if we are not confident to drop Vigor, we should drop Rending Slashes, which will save us stamina as it uses Magicka, which combined with Reave on Incap Strike gives more sustain than 71 stamina recovery.
For vMA, replace Surprise Attack with Power Extraction on non final-boss rounds, replace Rending Slashes with Ambush(8% damage from Minor Vulnerability is more damage than Rending Slashes DoT), replace Vigor with Reaper's Mark, which gives Major Fracture, a burst heal when something dies with 5 seconds of Major Berserk, which you can have a very significant uptime of as you will be mowing things down all around with Power Extraction. This setup is stronger than StamNB vMA setup on prior patches and it is totally possible to survive with Siphoning Attacks heal, Bow proc burst heal, which actually works like a Burst Heal in PvE, Reaper's Mark burst heal and Killer's Blade heal.
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deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Can you please erase your post? Once people realize that the changes were good, people will start saying NB is OP again.
On a serious note though, I agree with what you’ve said. Personally I’d like a little more than 5% on surprise attack but so far it’s not bad.
Bow proc heal should have increased range since it is a ranged attack.
Relentless focus damage mitigation plus dark cloak mitigation is very powerful.
Power extraction buff was awesome.
Could care less about losing stun on incap, I don’t know why anyone even cares about it. I get defile from reverberating bash now, and bow builds can just slot lethal arrow.
Reave plus leeching strikes is ridiculous (in a good way). Not sure if worth slotting over DBoS in PvP (for my build) but it’s a nice option.
Higher damage on shades and shadow image is super nice and like you said, it’s a powerful DoT that uses magicka so it frees up some stamina for stamina players in PvE.
SnB/2h in PvP is awesome. My personal build is just over 25k HP, 36k stam, 2175 stam recovery (unbuffed), just under 29k resistances, 3.34k crit resist, just over 4K weapon damage, over 12k penetration. Great sustain, tanky as hell, and still does damage.
The class is 100% fine.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!2 -
alanmatillab16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Will never happen. Those that play with one hand down their shorts while looking at the damage meters will cry armageddon if their class isn't consistently top of the meters.
ZOS should release a "change class" token for 10K crowns then change the "meta" each month just to troll them.1 -
rabidmyers✭✭✭✭✭deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »Can you please erase your post? Once people realize that the changes were good, people will start saying NB is OP again.
On a serious note though, I agree with what you’ve said. Personally I’d like a little more than 5% on surprise attack but so far it’s not bad.
Bow proc heal should have increased range since it is a ranged attack.
Relentless focus damage mitigation plus dark cloak mitigation is very powerful.
Power extraction buff was awesome.
Could care less about losing stun on incap, I don’t know why anyone even cares about it. I get defile from reverberating bash now, and bow builds can just slot lethal arrow.
Reave plus leeching strikes is ridiculous (in a good way). Not sure if worth slotting over DBoS in PvP (for my build) but it’s a nice option.
Higher damage on shades and shadow image is super nice and like you said, it’s a powerful DoT that uses magicka so it frees up some stamina for stamina players in PvE.
SnB/2h in PvP is awesome. My personal build is just over 25k HP, 36k stam, 2175 stam recovery (unbuffed), just under 29k resistances, 3.34k crit resist, just over 4K weapon damage, over 12k penetration. Great sustain, tanky as hell, and still does damage.
The class is 100% fine.
hey friend what sets are u rocking there? if u dont mind answering
at a place nobody knows1 -
Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
✭I still hate these changes I also played stamblade since eso release I like to play solo pvp good damage high sustain important it suck ass that it’s gone fat rip to class and game ruiner for me.3 -
WhisperLFE✭✭✭From a mainly PvE perspective: At first, I was pretty bummed out by the changes as a whole. It definitely felt like a significant nerf using my old playstyle, skills, and rotation. But as I've had some time to adjust, I've realized it's really not the end of the world.
The major fracture loss on surprise attack is probably what I "feel" the most. On the flip side, the shade and power extraction buffs are definitely nice.
Steel tornado can still pull decent dmg with the DW passives, but power extraction helps with the ultimate building (the animation took some getting used to so that it didn't throw my rotation way off).
I'm still experimenting with mark and whether I want to make space for it. Being no-cost is nice, though. I'm imagining I'll probably find more use for it in PvP than I do PvE (just like before).
My DPS feels more steady and less peak-ish than it did before, as a whole (for better and worse). But that might be some of the adjustments I've made in using the rotation as well.
Edited by WhisperLFE on May 24, 2019 9:56PM0 -
evoniee✭✭✭✭LOOL you didnt see it because you doent even reach the peak level of gameplay, have you ever duel another notable snb player and realize you guys literally cant kill each other no matter build you use0 -
evoniee✭✭✭✭even nb use brawler fury 7th + velidreth, it basically cant kill anybody (yes any real good player, not a f potato) because the gameplay didnt work0
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AMeanOne✭✭✭✭✭Get out of here with your logic. And facts, we hate those too.Edited by AMeanOne on May 24, 2019 10:12PM3
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susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LOOL you didnt see it because you doent even reach the peak level of gameplay, have you ever duel another notable snb player and realize you guys literally cant kill each other no matter build you use
I have myself used 2H/S&B Heavy Stamblade various times for three years, right from the Dark Brotherhood days, when Black Rose/Tremorscale/Viper S&B was enough to destroy any thing and I know its strengths and weaknesses.
For Dueling, S&B has always been a safer bet. Heavy S&B stamblade has been one of the best dueling specs in the game for a pretty long time.
But, it is wrong to say that other playstyles are any less viable now. The bleedblade with 2h/DW can be tanky as well but more burst and pressure. Rollerblade is still one of the best open world builds.
Also, stalemates has been an issue in CP-duels forever. It is by no way, limited to S&B.Edited by susmitds on May 24, 2019 11:56PM0 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Deathlord92 wrote: »I still hate these changes I also played stamblade since eso release I like to play solo pvp good damage high sustain important it suck ass that it’s gone fat rip to class and game ruiner for me.
It is totally possible to play that way. You just need to mix up your build. I am destroying people 8k+ Power Extractions on my build, with back bar Master Axes for maximum carnage.1 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ragnarock41 wrote: »The only people who would unironically call stamNB weak, is stamNb mains.
As a stamNB main myself, I will assure you lots of stamblades don't call it weak. If anything, the changes at least in PvP, decreased the floor and increased the ceiling for Stamblade, giving it an illusion of being weaker, while increasing the top end capability.0 -
Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
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I hope you’re right 😔 being on console I still got to wait but I’m in no rush for Elsweyr.Ragnarock41 wrote: »The only people who would unironically call stamNB weak, is stamNb mains.
As a stamNB main myself, I will assure you lots of stamblades don't call it weak. If anything, the changes at least in PvP, decreased the floor and increased the ceiling for Stamblade, giving it an illusion of being weaker, while increasing the top end capability.
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Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Most limiting factor I see for stamblade PvP with Elsweyr is bar space, so many good abilities to choose from.Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
deepseamk20b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭rabidrufus64 wrote: »
hey friend what sets are u rocking there? if u dont mind answering
It’s honestly nothing special. Spriggans, bone pirate, chudan, lord warden. All impen. 2H is a maul with crusher enchant and back bar sword has infused weapon damage enchant. Jewelry is 2 infused with weapon damage and one protective. I’m a wood elf so I get even more penetration with a roll dodge. Dubious Comoran Throne. I think 1 or 2 pieces of armor are health the rest stamina. Lover mundus stone.
Back bar with SnB is phantasmal escape, ransack, dark cloak, reverberating bash, vigor, soul siphon.
Front bar rally, surprise attack, relentless focus, carve, power extraction/killers blade (flex spot), DBoS.
The stats I posted are obviously fully buffed. Keeping weapon damage enchant up is really easy and so is crusher. Since everyone is tanky in Cyro I built for penetration not just weapon damage. With a total of 23% damage reduction and high resistances for both crit and physical/spell build incredibly tanky.
Essentially put carve on target and debuff with ransack. Throw in a reverb here and there until under 50%. At that point dawnbreaker, spectral bow, and killers blade. When penetration is that high and you make sure you’ve proc’ed the weapon damage enchant it doesn’t matter if a person is tanky or not with how hard DBoS and spectral bow hits.
I’m toying with trying night mother’s gaze but only for small group or solo where no one else is applying major fracture.
You could go with another monster set if you want but having that much resistance these days is really really nice.Hey everyone! Look! It's a signature!1 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »Most limiting factor I see for stamblade PvP with Elsweyr is bar space, so many good abilities to choose from.
Pretty much. The real nerf is basically forcing stamblades to use extra slots for skills, they got for free previously.0 -
czar✭✭✭✭All of this sounds good on paper, but I'm still completely unable to sustain my rotation after the update. My stam recovery seems to be non-existent, and my DPS suffers greatly because of it. Idk what all of you saying NBs are fine are doing different,. but mine is nearly unplayable in harder content, unless you love to heavy attack and do no DPS I suppose.stam scrub2 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭All of this sounds good on paper, but I'm still completely unable to sustain my rotation after the update. My stam recovery seems to be non-existent, and my DPS suffers greatly because of it. Idk what all of you saying NBs are fine are doing different,. but mine is nearly unplayable in harder content, unless you love to heavy attack and do no DPS I suppose.
Sustain remains the same between the patches. Literally nothing changed. If you can't sustain now, you could not sustain earlier anyways.1 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
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Sustain got buffed with the new incap...
You’re probably just missing your light attack weaves due to how crappy the servers have been lately.
PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp0 -
czar✭✭✭✭
Per my LA-tracker addon, I am not, If anything, weaving seems to have become easier. Synergies and HA barely recovers any stamina for me now.Sustain got buffed with the new incap...
You’re probably just missing your light attack weaves due to how crappy the servers have been lately.
But the fact you’re suggesting that I’m doing something wrong actually makes me hopeful that this update isn’t as garbage as I feared.stam scrub0 -
Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
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Per my LA-tracker addon, I am not, If anything, weaving seems to have become easier. Synergies and HA barely recovers any stamina for me now.Sustain got buffed with the new incap...
You’re probably just missing your light attack weaves due to how crappy the servers have been lately.
But the fact you’re suggesting that I’m doing something wrong actually makes me hopeful that this update isn’t as garbage as I feared.
I’m not necessarily suggesting it’s your fault. I’m a pvper and I’ve noticed that my sustain is definitely server-state dependent. I can sustain far more easily when the servers aren’t garbage.
And right now they’re garbage.PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp3 -
ChefZero✭✭✭✭deepseamk20b14_ESO wrote: »It’s honestly nothing special. Spriggans, bone pirate, chudan, lord warden. All impen. 2H is a maul with crusher enchant and back bar sword has infused weapon damage enchant. Jewelry is 2 infused with weapon damage and one protective. I’m a wood elf so I get even more penetration with a roll dodge. Dubious Comoran Throne. I think 1 or 2 pieces of armor are health the rest stamina. Lover mundus stone.
I'm running a similar setup Spriggans + BP + Bloodspawn. At first look at your stats I get jealous. But honestly the reason might be that I just don't know my buffed CP stats
The differences are monsterset, all tri-stat, all protective, warrior mundus and imperial so far. How do you sustain magicka?
I have to replace BS with something else because the uptime is below 25% on my playstyle.PC EU - DC only0 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭for reave you need to front bar it right? which means youll lose on 8 wep damage.
spending that much time on back bar for reave doesnt seem good.
or the new meta is incap on front? 0
