The “Easy Sorc” build

mikemacon

kylewwefan wrote: »

@mikemacon I put the daedric tomb back on. You probably mentioned it, but it wasn’t clicking in my head you get like an extra %6 Crit from casting that. It brought me from %57 to %63 Crit. And it like stuns and immobilized stuff. Pretty good skill. I think Xynode May have done some research before putting it out. Lol

Just a little bit. 😜

starkerealm

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

That build worked reasonably well in 2017, and died with the release of dragon bones.

I don't know if you remember, but Dragon Bones predated the release of Summerset. No one was using UI before Jewelry crafting was added because the jewely was robust, and there was no point.

So, you're literally saying, "the build was viable before it could be used, and then died three months before it became an option."

I'll grant you, getting a UI lightning staff is a pain in the ***. And the irony is, a lot of people, myself included, deconned them before Summerset came along, because it was a trash drop for a trash set. Hell, I think Xy's said he deconned the UI lightning staff before we tested Summerset.

As it is now, it does what it's supposed to do. If I remember correctly, the previous version of the build called for Spider Cultist and Netch, which, I mean, hey if you want to run that, it's still an option that's open to you. I'm happy to see people finding ways to improve player options in this game. Saying, "no, there's only one thing, and it's BiS," is a very good way to get players to tune out. Now, having said that, yes, I want to see people running viable builds, and Xy's do deliver that. I've run with a lot of people running his builds in the last year, and on the whole, yes, his builds work very well.

Qbiken

starkerealm wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

That build worked reasonably well in 2017, and died with the release of dragon bones.

I don't know if you remember, but Dragon Bones predated the release of Summerset. No one was using UI before Jewelry crafting was added because the jewely was robust, and there was no point.

So, you're literally saying, "the build was viable before it could be used, and then died three months before it became an option."

I'll grant you, getting a UI lightning staff is a pain in the ***. And the irony is, a lot of people, myself included, deconned them before Summerset came along, because it was a trash drop for a trash set. Hell, I think Xy's said he deconned the UI lightning staff before we tested Summerset.

As it is now, it does what it's supposed to do. If I remember correctly, the previous version of the build called for Spider Cultist and Netch, which, I mean, hey if you want to run that, it's still an option that's open to you. I'm happy to see people finding ways to improve player options in this game. Saying, "no, there's only one thing, and it's BiS," is a very good way to get players to tune out. Now, having said that, yes, I want to see people running viable builds, and Xy's do deliver that. I've run with a lot of people running his builds in the last year, and on the whole, yes, his builds work very well.

One of our classreps (masel) did have a build with UI long before summerset, so that claim is quite false. He was one of the first I saw that utilized the off-balance debuff. However, if I remember correctly, he swapped to other options quite fast.

I'm not sure when Xy did release his easy sorc, but from what I can read in the thread here, it sounds awfully similar to what masel used many years ago (unless I confuse UI with the other undaunted named set)

kylewwefan

Don’t remember exactly. Too much time has passed.

Masel used it on a DK heavy attack build at one time I think. It would probably still work really well for them.

That was way before jewelry crafting was a thing. Proc sets may have still been able to Crit then as well.

And it was probably at the time when sharpened was king and Gawd only knows where Mundus Stones were? Was there even the lover back then? Diddnt matter, everyone used the thief.

But at that point in time, everything was probably all about pet Sorc anyways. So no one would really care about it.

starkerealm

kylewwefan wrote: »

Don’t remember exactly. Too much time has passed.

Masel used it on a DK heavy attack build at one time I think. It would probably still work really well for them.

That was way before jewelry crafting was a thing. Proc sets may have still been able to Crit then as well.

They could. Man, that was a minute ago.

And as you pointed out, @Qbiken, pre-Summerset UI was not particularly appealing, mostly because of the jewelry traits.

I want to say that there was a version of the Easy Sorc back then, though it was functionally an entirely different animal from the new version of the build.

kylewwefan

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

I may just be a sheepie toxic elitist meta lover but I guarantee almost any combination of Acuity/MS + BSW/Julianos/Crafty Alfiq/Spell Strat will beat that build with the same rotation.

I can (mathematically) confirm that running something like Juli + MS + Slimecraw will be better than UI.

Personally, if someone were to say to me "Hey, I wanted to play a magsorc with a simple rotation that will let me do vet trial ready DPS and let me farm Maelstrom Arena. What sets do you recommend running?", I'd point them towards something like Necro + MS/Acuity/Juli with 2-piece Ilambris. It's easier to get, cheaper to buy (in fact, you can buy all the pieces except for your monster helm), and better for DPS than the UI and IA combo. Quick, simple, and no need for expensive and needless waste of transmute crystals.

A little update. I accepted the challenge and put it to the test. But I screwed up a little. Will work some more on this later.

So ya know, I really detest beating on a dummy, but curiosity has me.

Mother Sorrow/Julianos vs Undaunted Infaltrator/ Infallible Aether

I did 3 x 3 mil test each and six mil. I forgot about using slimecraw and kept Grothdar on for both. That could have changed things. Also, the Mother Sorrow jewelry I bought is all arcane. Changing it to Infused or bloodthirsty or something might be better? I dont know?

I used Destro Ult. Should I use the atronach Ult? I’m also not sure? It does last a long time.

I’ve got no easy way to present this. Console thing and not the greatest with YouTube things.

My results

Easy Sorc (that’s Modified) : 36k DPS

The Asian God Suggestion (that I screwed up) 32k DPS.

The Conclusion

They are quite close. Mother Sorrow/ Julianos will probably scale better in group content, where as I know from other testing Easy Sorc stayed much the same. Could be even better using fire staves rather than lightning staves.

The rotation would have to change a bit because heavy attack fire staves rotation is really not a thing.

In Retrospect

Wow. Has the game really changed that much? Am I a better player now then when I started? I clearly remember struggling to hit 25k with a pet Sorc so I could join in vet trials and stuff awhile back. 30k is much easier to achieve...I must be a little better than I was. Have to be.

But not that much better.

Xynode shows hitting 42k and here I am at 36k. 6k DPS behind still. Probably because I’m bad. Maybe it’s lag? Maybe it’s....who freaking cares at this point, that’s enough to get into a vet team and not be carried.

No. Let’s not stop here just because. I’m gonna go back later and dig out a slimecraw and try again. Also, I made up a Julianos Lightning Staff for this comparison. Should I be using a Mother Sorrow Lightning Staff? Would you go infused or precise? Would it make a difference even?

Maybe I should just give it a rest. My damage is surprisingly really close. It’s probably the little things making the big difference now.

kylewwefan

I went back and tried out slimecraw. My damage went down to 31k DPS. I’m probably doing something wrong. I dont know? I’m sure one my toons somewhere must have a Julianos Inferno Staff I’d like to try out before making another one. Just gotta find it. Should I also throw on a Maelstrom inferno?

This was not nearly as much fun.

Gotta figure something out here. Hopped on my 2H Stam DK last night. That was fun.

Thaught I had my Sorc in a good place finally. Might just stick with the easy Sorc build. It did ok and I know I can handle it.

T3hasiangod

kylewwefan wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

I may just be a sheepie toxic elitist meta lover but I guarantee almost any combination of Acuity/MS + BSW/Julianos/Crafty Alfiq/Spell Strat will beat that build with the same rotation.

I can (mathematically) confirm that running something like Juli + MS + Slimecraw will be better than UI.

Personally, if someone were to say to me "Hey, I wanted to play a magsorc with a simple rotation that will let me do vet trial ready DPS and let me farm Maelstrom Arena. What sets do you recommend running?", I'd point them towards something like Necro + MS/Acuity/Juli with 2-piece Ilambris. It's easier to get, cheaper to buy (in fact, you can buy all the pieces except for your monster helm), and better for DPS than the UI and IA combo. Quick, simple, and no need for expensive and needless waste of transmute crystals.

A little update. I accepted the challenge and put it to the test. But I screwed up a little. Will work some more on this later.

So ya know, I really detest beating on a dummy, but curiosity has me.

Mother Sorrow/Julianos vs Undaunted Infaltrator/ Infallible Aether

I did 3 x 3 mil test each and six mil. I forgot about using slimecraw and kept Grothdar on for both. That could have changed things. Also, the Mother Sorrow jewelry I bought is all arcane. Changing it to Infused or bloodthirsty or something might be better? I dont know?

I used Destro Ult. Should I use the atronach Ult? I’m also not sure? It does last a long time.

I’ve got no easy way to present this. Console thing and not the greatest with YouTube things.

My results

Easy Sorc (that’s Modified) : 36k DPS

The Asian God Suggestion (that I screwed up) 32k DPS.

The Conclusion

They are quite close. Mother Sorrow/ Julianos will probably scale better in group content, where as I know from other testing Easy Sorc stayed much the same. Could be even better using fire staves rather than lightning staves.

The rotation would have to change a bit because heavy attack fire staves rotation is really not a thing.

In Retrospect

Wow. Has the game really changed that much? Am I a better player now then when I started? I clearly remember struggling to hit 25k with a pet Sorc so I could join in vet trials and stuff awhile back. 30k is much easier to achieve...I must be a little better than I was. Have to be.

But not that much better.

Xynode shows hitting 42k and here I am at 36k. 6k DPS behind still. Probably because I’m bad. Maybe it’s lag? Maybe it’s....who freaking cares at this point, that’s enough to get into a vet team and not be carried.

No. Let’s not stop here just because. I’m gonna go back later and dig out a slimecraw and try again. Also, I made up a Julianos Lightning Staff for this comparison. Should I be using a Mother Sorrow Lightning Staff? Would you go infused or precise? Would it make a difference even?

Maybe I should just give it a rest. My damage is surprisingly really close. It’s probably the little things making the big difference now.

You can't compare those two directly on 3m or 6m dummies, due to the fact that IA gives out Minor Vulnerability. This means you need to adjust the Easy Sorc parse down to account for Minor Vulnerability uptime.

A better comparison would be to take builds on the new 21m raid dummy on the PTS, since this normalizes all buffs and debuffs.

Xynode's Easy Sorc (directly pulled rotation, gear, and CP from his website)





My WIP HA Sorc Build





As you can see, the WIP HA Sorc Build (it's a WIP because I'm still playing around with CP and set combos) pulls better DPS and the gear is easier to obtain. You can easily add a shield to your back bar by replacing Bound Aegis with Hardened Ward, and if you want to run something like Surge and Ward, you can just drop the Familiar and slot your Ward and Surge.

Masel

I had a few off-meta builds that used outside the box thinking at some point too. It is such a hassle dealing with all the people saying things like: "you should use this" or "look at this guy, not even optimised", that I simply stopped doing it.


I've been in build creation for around 3 1/2 years now I think, and I noticed a trend that i see as very negative within the community, and that is that they have become very narrow-minded in terms of optimisation and damage output, which is actually hindering theorycrafting itself by ditching options simply because "this option is definitely better, I know that without trying". Also, some of the content creators out there seem to have a very competitive mindset, while collaborative thinking would be much better for the community.

Funny thing is though, that exactly this outside the box thinking that is criticised widely generates new meta options in many ways. Look at bow/bow vAS for example, it was created by trying something that wouldve been laughed about before simply. Same goes for the DoT spammable thing, I started it a while ago and up to elsweyr, it was some sort of meta for classes that lacked an actual spammable.

The community and other content creators should be happy that there is a noticable number of creators out there that try to help community members and get rid of this "he doesnt do meta, let's make fun of him" mentality. Have you even thought about the fact that there might be players out there that are actually physically impaired and unable to perform a light attack rotation reliably or just in pain? With builds like this, they can dish out enough dps to finish all veteran content.

Joxer61

T3hasiangod wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

I may just be a sheepie toxic elitist meta lover but I guarantee almost any combination of Acuity/MS + BSW/Julianos/Crafty Alfiq/Spell Strat will beat that build with the same rotation.

I can (mathematically) confirm that running something like Juli + MS + Slimecraw will be better than UI.

Personally, if someone were to say to me "Hey, I wanted to play a magsorc with a simple rotation that will let me do vet trial ready DPS and let me farm Maelstrom Arena. What sets do you recommend running?", I'd point them towards something like Necro + MS/Acuity/Juli with 2-piece Ilambris. It's easier to get, cheaper to buy (in fact, you can buy all the pieces except for your monster helm), and better for DPS than the UI and IA combo. Quick, simple, and no need for expensive and needless waste of transmute crystals.

A little update. I accepted the challenge and put it to the test. But I screwed up a little. Will work some more on this later.

So ya know, I really detest beating on a dummy, but curiosity has me.

Mother Sorrow/Julianos vs Undaunted Infaltrator/ Infallible Aether

I did 3 x 3 mil test each and six mil. I forgot about using slimecraw and kept Grothdar on for both. That could have changed things. Also, the Mother Sorrow jewelry I bought is all arcane. Changing it to Infused or bloodthirsty or something might be better? I dont know?

I used Destro Ult. Should I use the atronach Ult? I’m also not sure? It does last a long time.

I’ve got no easy way to present this. Console thing and not the greatest with YouTube things.

My results

Easy Sorc (that’s Modified) : 36k DPS

The Asian God Suggestion (that I screwed up) 32k DPS.

The Conclusion

They are quite close. Mother Sorrow/ Julianos will probably scale better in group content, where as I know from other testing Easy Sorc stayed much the same. Could be even better using fire staves rather than lightning staves.

The rotation would have to change a bit because heavy attack fire staves rotation is really not a thing.

In Retrospect

Wow. Has the game really changed that much? Am I a better player now then when I started? I clearly remember struggling to hit 25k with a pet Sorc so I could join in vet trials and stuff awhile back. 30k is much easier to achieve...I must be a little better than I was. Have to be.

But not that much better.

Xynode shows hitting 42k and here I am at 36k. 6k DPS behind still. Probably because I’m bad. Maybe it’s lag? Maybe it’s....who freaking cares at this point, that’s enough to get into a vet team and not be carried.

No. Let’s not stop here just because. I’m gonna go back later and dig out a slimecraw and try again. Also, I made up a Julianos Lightning Staff for this comparison. Should I be using a Mother Sorrow Lightning Staff? Would you go infused or precise? Would it make a difference even?

Maybe I should just give it a rest. My damage is surprisingly really close. It’s probably the little things making the big difference now.

You can't compare those two directly on 3m or 6m dummies, due to the fact that IA gives out Minor Vulnerability. This means you need to adjust the Easy Sorc parse down to account for Minor Vulnerability uptime.

A better comparison would be to take builds on the new 21m raid dummy on the PTS, since this normalizes all buffs and debuffs.

Xynode's Easy Sorc (directly pulled rotation, gear, and CP from his website)





My WIP HA Sorc Build





As you can see, the WIP HA Sorc Build (it's a WIP because I'm still playing around with CP and set combos) pulls better DPS and the gear is easier to obtain. You can easily add a shield to your back bar by replacing Bound Aegis with Hardened Ward, and if you want to run something like Surge and Ward, you can just drop the Familiar and slot your Ward and Surge.

Really? 2k dps difference? Let it go mate, just let it go. you do you and let others do what they do, simples. @Masel sort of hits it on the head and yea...../sigh

DaniArrow

The Easy Sorc build is awesome. It's fun to play and it taught me about rotation and how things work in a simple, relaxed way. I still use it now and I was able to beat every vet dungeon and I'm into vet raids now. Great sustain and survivability and really fun to play.

Joxer61

DaniArrow wrote: »

The Easy Sorc build is awesome. It's fun to play and it taught me about rotation and how things work in a simple, relaxed way. I still use it now and I was able to beat every vet dungeon and I'm into vet raids now. Great sustain and survivability and really fun to play.

And that right there is all any build needs to be, so its a win win without any calculator needed.

karekiz

Also why charged on staves in instead of Infused just out of curiostity.

phileunderx2

Trash build only pulls 55k dps.🤣🤣🤣

kylewwefan

@T3hasiangod

Thanks for taking the time to compare. Uhm, part of what I liked about it is it’s not a pet build. But you know, sure some people like their pets and I have pulled them out from time to time.

It looked like you skipped the Maelstrom staff on your WIP btw. So you could maybe be a little more better.
I take it wip is (Work in Progress?)

I did try and go back and try Julianos and BSW, and scathing Mage and Netch and elegant and IA and Moondancer and Mother Sorrow, in a few various combinations.

You might not believe this, but I pretty much suck with all of them. I couldn’t get back over 25k DPS. I probably messed something up or maybe it’s the jewelry traits no bloodthirsty or infused on the others?

I consider myself as part of the higher end of the slightly below average when it comes to DPS.

I’m just sticking with Easy Sorc til something better comes out. Btw, I had a chance to do a big group test last night and got up to 42k.

T3hasiangod

Joxer61 wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

I may just be a sheepie toxic elitist meta lover but I guarantee almost any combination of Acuity/MS + BSW/Julianos/Crafty Alfiq/Spell Strat will beat that build with the same rotation.

I can (mathematically) confirm that running something like Juli + MS + Slimecraw will be better than UI.

Personally, if someone were to say to me "Hey, I wanted to play a magsorc with a simple rotation that will let me do vet trial ready DPS and let me farm Maelstrom Arena. What sets do you recommend running?", I'd point them towards something like Necro + MS/Acuity/Juli with 2-piece Ilambris. It's easier to get, cheaper to buy (in fact, you can buy all the pieces except for your monster helm), and better for DPS than the UI and IA combo. Quick, simple, and no need for expensive and needless waste of transmute crystals.

A little update. I accepted the challenge and put it to the test. But I screwed up a little. Will work some more on this later.

So ya know, I really detest beating on a dummy, but curiosity has me.

Mother Sorrow/Julianos vs Undaunted Infaltrator/ Infallible Aether

I did 3 x 3 mil test each and six mil. I forgot about using slimecraw and kept Grothdar on for both. That could have changed things. Also, the Mother Sorrow jewelry I bought is all arcane. Changing it to Infused or bloodthirsty or something might be better? I dont know?

I used Destro Ult. Should I use the atronach Ult? I’m also not sure? It does last a long time.

I’ve got no easy way to present this. Console thing and not the greatest with YouTube things.

My results

Easy Sorc (that’s Modified) : 36k DPS

The Asian God Suggestion (that I screwed up) 32k DPS.

The Conclusion

They are quite close. Mother Sorrow/ Julianos will probably scale better in group content, where as I know from other testing Easy Sorc stayed much the same. Could be even better using fire staves rather than lightning staves.

The rotation would have to change a bit because heavy attack fire staves rotation is really not a thing.

In Retrospect

Wow. Has the game really changed that much? Am I a better player now then when I started? I clearly remember struggling to hit 25k with a pet Sorc so I could join in vet trials and stuff awhile back. 30k is much easier to achieve...I must be a little better than I was. Have to be.

But not that much better.

Xynode shows hitting 42k and here I am at 36k. 6k DPS behind still. Probably because I’m bad. Maybe it’s lag? Maybe it’s....who freaking cares at this point, that’s enough to get into a vet team and not be carried.

No. Let’s not stop here just because. I’m gonna go back later and dig out a slimecraw and try again. Also, I made up a Julianos Lightning Staff for this comparison. Should I be using a Mother Sorrow Lightning Staff? Would you go infused or precise? Would it make a difference even?

Maybe I should just give it a rest. My damage is surprisingly really close. It’s probably the little things making the big difference now.

You can't compare those two directly on 3m or 6m dummies, due to the fact that IA gives out Minor Vulnerability. This means you need to adjust the Easy Sorc parse down to account for Minor Vulnerability uptime.

A better comparison would be to take builds on the new 21m raid dummy on the PTS, since this normalizes all buffs and debuffs.

Xynode's Easy Sorc (directly pulled rotation, gear, and CP from his website)





My WIP HA Sorc Build





As you can see, the WIP HA Sorc Build (it's a WIP because I'm still playing around with CP and set combos) pulls better DPS and the gear is easier to obtain. You can easily add a shield to your back bar by replacing Bound Aegis with Hardened Ward, and if you want to run something like Surge and Ward, you can just drop the Familiar and slot your Ward and Surge.

Really? 2k dps difference? Let it go mate, just let it go. you do you and let others do what they do, simples. Masel sort of hits it on the head and yea...../sigh

You aren't getting the point. The higher DPS is just one aspect of the story here. In fact, for both builds, you would not get onto any progression team in the guilds I'm a part of. These are teams that are doing vHoF, vMaw HM, vCR + 1 and above, vSS, etc.


The other, much larger and more important, aspect is the fact that the WIP build is far easier to obtain and is more "futureproof" than the Easy Sorc build. Easy Sorc requires you to farm a trial and a dungeon, plus transmute the jewelry. The WIP build simply involves paying for or farming for two overland sets, no transmutes required. You can even get an infused MS lightning as part of a quest reward; do it on 2 characters and you won't even need to farm weapons.

You won't be running IA or UI at end-game level DPS. If you wanted to go beyond vMaw, then you would likely need to farm a completely new set of gear for a completely new build. With the WIP build, you already have MS, which is a very powerful set for magicka DPS (and likely continue to be in future patches), and Necropotence, which is still quite strong for petsorcs. You won't necessarily need to farm any new gear, just learn a new rotation (LA rotations are far stronger than HA rotations).

That is the issue many people have with Easy Sorc. The fact that it's basically a dead end build, with no upward mobility. The sets are not useful in endgame content, and you're devoting more time and energy than is necessary for arguably inferior results.

T3hasiangod

kylewwefan wrote: »

@T3hasiangod

Thanks for taking the time to compare. Uhm, part of what I liked about it is it’s not a pet build. But you know, sure some people like their pets and I have pulled them out from time to time.

It looked like you skipped the Maelstrom staff on your WIP btw. So you could maybe be a little more better.
I take it wip is (Work in Progress?)

I did try and go back and try Julianos and BSW, and scathing Mage and Netch and elegant and IA and Moondancer and Mother Sorrow, in a few various combinations.

You might not believe this, but I pretty much suck with all of them. I couldn’t get back over 25k DPS. I probably messed something up or maybe it’s the jewelry traits no bloodthirsty or infused on the others?

I consider myself as part of the higher end of the slightly below average when it comes to DPS.

I’m just sticking with Easy Sorc til something better comes out. Btw, I had a chance to do a big group test last night and got up to 42k.

I purposely do not use a vMA staff for my HA sorc builds. The concept is to use solely base game gear to push out as high DPS as possible for people who may not be able to fully commit to a full LA rotation due to time, disability, etc.

T3hasiangod

karekiz wrote: »

Also why charged on staves in instead of Infused just out of curiostity.

karekiz wrote: »

Also why charged on staves in instead of Infused just out of curiostity.

Shock Damage glyphs will show up as Charged due to how the enchant damage is named and coded in-game.

starkerealm

kylewwefan wrote: »

I consider myself as part of the higher end of the slightly below average when it comes to DPS.

If you're pulling 25k on a dummy under any circumstances, you're well above average for DPS. Not, necessarily, what endgame groups want, but, but spend some time in pugs, and you'll see average DPS is far lower.

This isn't to say, "yeah, that's cool, stop striving," because keep working at it, but you have made some real progress as a DPS, and are learning, keep at it, and good job for getting this far.

starkerealm

T3hasiangod wrote: »

I purposely do not use a vMA staff for my HA sorc builds.

Then you're not in a position to test the Easy Sorc or make an evaluation on it.

Get in there, get a vMA staff, and then come back and tell us what you found.

starkerealm

@masel, there seems to be an inverse correlation. The more someone understands about the game, the less likely they are to be hyperfocused on finding a single, overall, "best."

I mean, it drops off at the bottom end, with people who really don't know or care, but, if you're looking at someone who came from WoW, or raids occasionally, terms like "BiS" are much more likely to be thrown around as actual statements. The people who really understand the game's systems, and the options we have are far more likely to use, "BiS," sarcastically.

I think that has to do with how ESO's build diversity really is open, and an understanding that a difference of 5k DPS at the upper end of the spectrum doesn't really matter in a practical sense (outside of score attacks.) However, if you're coming from an MMO where there is an objective best, you could make the mistake of looking at that 5k, and thinking, "but, there must be a reason to run the better option!"

There's also a few people who only run their builds on paper (or against dummies), who then get extremely defensive of their builds the instant you poke them. I mean, the real reason here is, they're untested, and they know it, but they'll scream to the rooftops about how theirs is the way, the truth, and the light, rather than admit that you could get slightly lower damage on a dummy, but better damage in live, by just switching to a different, "less optimized set." I remember someone arguing for Siroria when they were only able to maintain five stacks, as an example of this. Or, you know, half the value of just running Juli. But, they're quite aggressive about their builds. (I kinda wonder if they were the ones behind the Mother's Sorrow+Acuity mess a couple years ago.)

So, yeah, I tend to be somewhat hostile to the people who are like, "no, there's only one possible BiS." Sometimes, a bit too aggressive, but life goes on.

T3hasiangod

starkerealm wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

I purposely do not use a vMA staff for my HA sorc builds.

Then you're not in a position to test the Easy Sorc or make an evaluation on it.

Get in there, get a vMA staff, and then come back and tell us what you found.

...

Putting a vMA staff on my HA sorc build would end up making my build stronger. There'd be no point in adding in a vMA staff and retesting because the results will still be the same.

hedna123b14_ESO

Masel wrote: »

I had a few off-meta builds that used outside the box thinking at some point too. It is such a hassle dealing with all the people saying things like: "you should use this" or "look at this guy, not even optimised", that I simply stopped doing it.


I've been in build creation for around 3 1/2 years now I think, and I noticed a trend that i see as very negative within the community, and that is that they have become very narrow-minded in terms of optimisation and damage output, which is actually hindering theorycrafting itself by ditching options simply because "this option is definitely better, I know that without trying". Also, some of the content creators out there seem to have a very competitive mindset, while collaborative thinking would be much better for the community.

Funny thing is though, that exactly this outside the box thinking that is criticised widely generates new meta options in many ways. Look at bow/bow vAS for example, it was created by trying something that wouldve been laughed about before simply. Same goes for the DoT spammable thing, I started it a while ago and up to elsweyr, it was some sort of meta for classes that lacked an actual spammable.

The community and other content creators should be happy that there is a noticable number of creators out there that try to help community members and get rid of this "he doesnt do meta, let's make fun of him" mentality. Have you even thought about the fact that there might be players out there that are actually physically impaired and unable to perform a light attack rotation reliably or just in pain? With builds like this, they can dish out enough dps to finish all veteran content.

There are good points in what you say, however I think the issue people take with off meta builds is not the fact that they are off meta, but how they are presented. I used to have off meta builds that I would post, but at the very top I would put a disclaimer:" This is not optimized for the highest raid damage, but merely for a good fun alternative. This build will perform well, but not better than meta". This statement would automatically free me from any attacks...the issue is when off meta is being presented as stronger or not labeled as such. This creates false information and issues, because you often have to retrain people. Time that could have been saved with good info.

Joxer61

T3hasiangod wrote: »

You aren't getting the point. The higher DPS is just one aspect of the story here. In fact, for both builds, you would not get onto any progression team in the guilds I'm a part of. These are teams that are doing vHoF, vMaw HM, vCR + 1 and above, vSS, etc.




That is the issue many people have with Easy Sorc. The fact that it's basically a dead end build, with no upward mobility. The sets are not useful in endgame content, and you're devoting more time and energy than is necessary for arguably inferior results.

Point 1, if you are so "leet" and all end gameish then why bother even saying a thing about something you would never use?
Point 2, "most people" do not have an issue, but you surely do.

starkerealm

T3hasiangod wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

I purposely do not use a vMA staff for my HA sorc builds.

Then you're not in a position to test the Easy Sorc or make an evaluation on it.

Get in there, get a vMA staff, and then come back and tell us what you found.

...

Putting a vMA staff on my HA sorc build would end up making my build stronger. There'd be no point in adding in a vMA staff and retesting because the results will still be the same.

Okay, so this may be remedial information for you, but as someone who primarily off-tanks, this may be new information for you: Mag DPS, and DPS in general, seriously benefit from "ground lay," AoE abilities. For example, abilities like Endless Hail or Blockade. Additionally, all DPS benefit from something called weaving, where you intersperse your abilities with light and heavy attacks.

Now, this is the important thing: The Maelstrom Bow and Destruction Staves buff Endless Hail and Blockade respectively. In a very real sense, both sets represent "free" damage to their respective archetypes, as these are abilities that are only re-cast when they expire, and deal consistent damage while active. Even without the vMA weapons, these abilities do help players with limited manual dexterity. Adding vMA weapons significantly improves their effectiveness.

While it's true that players with significant disadvantages will find Maelstrom harder to complete on vet, that does not mean it is impossible, it is a static challenge, and players can improve over time through practice and effort. At that point, yes vMA weapons will improve the damage output of most DPS builds, unless you're specifically eschewing the abilities they buff, which you should not, because those abilities will make life easier for the players you claim you're creating your build for.

At this point, we're left with conflicting statements, "there's no point because the results would be the same," and "it would make my build stronger." If these were in separate paragraphs, I'd assume this was the product of editing conflicting positions together into one post, but in a single paragraph? I dunno, maybe just try testing with those sets, and if your build can't use those sets, maybe try reworking your build to make it less intensive on your player's fingers.

WrathOfInnos

Masel wrote: »

I had a few off-meta builds that used outside the box thinking at some point too. It is such a hassle dealing with all the people saying things like: "you should use this" or "look at this guy, not even optimised", that I simply stopped doing it.


I've been in build creation for around 3 1/2 years now I think, and I noticed a trend that i see as very negative within the community, and that is that they have become very narrow-minded in terms of optimisation and damage output, which is actually hindering theorycrafting itself by ditching options simply because "this option is definitely better, I know that without trying". Also, some of the content creators out there seem to have a very competitive mindset, while collaborative thinking would be much better for the community.

Funny thing is though, that exactly this outside the box thinking that is criticised widely generates new meta options in many ways. Look at bow/bow vAS for example, it was created by trying something that wouldve been laughed about before simply. Same goes for the DoT spammable thing, I started it a while ago and up to elsweyr, it was some sort of meta for classes that lacked an actual spammable.

The community and other content creators should be happy that there is a noticable number of creators out there that try to help community members and get rid of this "he doesnt do meta, let's make fun of him" mentality. Have you even thought about the fact that there might be players out there that are actually physically impaired and unable to perform a light attack rotation reliably or just in pain? With builds like this, they can dish out enough dps to finish all veteran content.

I can’t speak for everyone, but personally I love trying off-meta things. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don’t. I don’t think most of the comments in this thread were saying people had to swap to a meta build with light attacks, just pointing out that there are better options than those stated in the build. It would be frustrating to go to the effort of farming very specific sets pieces only to find out they are weaker than crafted or purchased sets.

I remember when you came up with pretty much this exact build @Masel . And in the aftermath of the Morrowind sustain changes it was innovative and effective. Heavy attacks were hitting hard with their old scaling, and off-balance could have near 100% uptime for even more damage from heavies. I don't believe this stands today, and to rerelease a build that is no longer effective, as a recommended option for new players, is IMO a disservice to the community. Everyone who has offered constructive criticism is what makes this community great. We can come up with crazy unique ideas, and others can offer advice as to how to improve it. No one person came up with the meta builds that are so popular today, and they are certainly not set in stone as new discoveries are made and tested.

Joxer61

I haven't seen T3 or whatever at any ZOS events...gee, not mathematically viable?
And its 2 k difference...*** let it go already....ffs.
People use Xy's builds and have fun doing so and complete whatever it is they want/need to complete, period.
People use T3's and feel they are special and part of a leet group, cool.
Does ANY of it fricking matter...really?

Trinity_Is_My_Name

I have an old build that uses Netch's and Spider Cultist and it still does very well. I've soloed some Vet dungeons on it quite nicely.

But yeah, will have to try out the newer setups. Always looking to mix it up!

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for baiting and flaming, both being against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.

vesselwiththepestle

starkerealm wrote: »

Okay, so this may be remedial information for you, but as someone who primarily off-tanks, this may be new information for you:

You should check out his youtube channel, it would have spared you a wall of text - except you are trolling?

starkerealm wrote: »

Adding vMA weapons significantly improves their effectiveness.

The whole point of his build is to utilize easy to get gear. You can make his build with 160 CP, vma is usually recommended 300 CP +. Which gear do you recommend until you get a vma staff btw, bare-handed on the back bar?

starkerealm wrote: »

At this point, we're left with conflicting statements, "there's no point because the results would be the same," and "it would make my build stronger."

There is no conflict. Yes, the DPS numbers would be different. But the RESULT, the CONCLUSION, of his test his, that his build is stronger. This conclusion wouldn't change with a vma staff, his build would still be stronger, because it would do even more DPS. So why waste time and pots on such a test, especially when the whole point of the build is to utilize only overland/craft gear?? The build is already doing more dps without a vma staff, so the result of his build doing more dps than the other build would only emphasize his point. If you still think this is a conflicting statement, you should read the whole argument again.