Slash CP cap?

mjharper

So power creep has become such a problem with the Champion Point system that they've been frozen. Obviously I have no idea what ZOS's solution will be, but how about just lowering the CP cap?

*cries of horror ensue*

Okay, so hear me out.

• The base game is scaled to CP160 difficulty.
• Each DLC raised the max CP level by 30.
• There have been 13 DLCs to date.
• 13x30=390; 390+160=550
• However, the current CP cap is 810.
• That's (810-550=260) CP points which are not tied to DLC at all.
• So, slash them.
• Reduce the CP cap to 160+(number of DLC x 30).

That doesn't mean max level players should lose those CPs, but they should be in 'reserve', as any CP points over 810 currently are. Nobody loses CP, but the amount you can spend is lowered.

This proposal would mean that there would still be some room to expand the CP points in the future: with the current release schedule of 4 DLC a year, it would take just over 2 more years (8/9 DLC) to return to the current level. Which, if nothing else, would give some breathing room for a more permanent solution.

Or a more radical reduction could take place, by reducing the CP increase from 30 to 20. Yes, I know that you get 30 because that's 10 for each of the three branches. But 20 also makes sense in a way, insofar as 160 is divisible by 20 and not 30.

With that more radical solution, you'd have a CP cap of 160+(13x20=260)=420. That would take about 19/20 more DLC to return to the current level, about 5 years of content.

In either case, this would be a solution which left the current system in place by changing as little as possible, while reducing the impact of power creep.

(In case anyone is wondering, I have 950 CP, so the change I'm proposing would absolutely affect me).

Tasear

Honestly no, we just need better thought out progression system. Your suggestion undermining long term players like myself. I already don't feel progression for 2 years now since I reach cap. It's more of annoyance added extra cost when we got it then yeah can do new things.

mjharper

Tasear wrote: »

Honestly no, we just need better thought out progression system. Your suggestion undermining long term players like myself. I already don't feel progression for 2 years now since I reach cap. It's more of annoyance added extra cost when we got it then yeah can do new things.

I also think we need a better thought out progression system. But surely reducing the cap so that it can continue to be increased, rather than having it frozen altogether, conveys a better sense of progression?

Wuuffyy

Tasear wrote: »

Honestly no, we just need better thought out progression system. Your suggestion undermining long term players like myself. I already don't feel progression for 2 years now since I reach cap. It's more of annoyance added extra cost when we got it then yeah can do new things.

Agreed. Although a lot of low end classes are held up by cp alone- WW for example... so I mean if they replace it, it better be a lot better

Darkstorne

CP isn’t the main cause of power creep. It’s a contributor, but there are much bigger factors. Gear colours provide much bigger steps in power - upgrading your weapon from blue to purple, or purple to gold, for example, makes a colossal difference. Two full 5 piece sets and a 2 piece monster or weapon set, compared to an equal level player equipping whatever gear they find naturally, is another huge difference in power. CP is fairly balanced in comparison, but when you add all those systems together it leads to a huge difference.

Personally, I’d like to see gear colours make a smaller difference, and leave CP and set bonuses as they are. But the rebalancing required to make that work will be tricky. Especially in harder dungeons like Fang Lair / Scalecaller.

ArchMikem

I kinda miss Veteran Levels.

mjharper

Darkstorne wrote: »

CP isn’t the main cause of power creep. It’s a contributor, but there are much bigger factors. Gear colours provide much bigger steps in power - upgrading your weapon from blue to purple, or purple to gold, for example, makes a colossal difference. Two full 5 piece sets and a 2 piece monster or weapon set, compared to an equal level player equipping whatever gear they find naturally, is another huge difference in power. CP is fairly balanced in comparison, but when you add all those systems together it leads to a huge difference.

Personally, I’d like to see gear colours make a smaller difference, and leave CP and set bonuses as they are. But the rebalancing required to make that work will be tricky. Especially in harder dungeons like Fang Lair / Scalecaller.

Fundamentally disagree there. Yes, gear level is important, but even gold gear is scaled to 160. Gold gear doesn't get more powerful with every DLC. That's not to say that reducing the differences between gear colours, as you suggest, might be a good idea. But the primary issue with power creep is the CP cap level increases.

phaneub17_ESO

They're working on a new system anyway, I actually hope they get rid of percentages from it entirely and make it static increments and similar ratings to what we get from set bonuses. It doesn't have to be anything fantastic either, D3's Paragon system is very simplistic and easy to navigate.

Tirps

ArchMikem wrote: »

I kinda miss Veteran Levels.

Actually, me too. The good thing with veteran ranks were that once you reached max level you had pretty much everything leveled and such, now when you reach lvl 50 you still need to grind a lot of stuff in order to have playable character lol.

Qbiken

mjharper wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

CP isn’t the main cause of power creep. It’s a contributor, but there are much bigger factors. Gear colours provide much bigger steps in power - upgrading your weapon from blue to purple, or purple to gold, for example, makes a colossal difference. Two full 5 piece sets and a 2 piece monster or weapon set, compared to an equal level player equipping whatever gear they find naturally, is another huge difference in power. CP is fairly balanced in comparison, but when you add all those systems together it leads to a huge difference.

Personally, I’d like to see gear colours make a smaller difference, and leave CP and set bonuses as they are. But the rebalancing required to make that work will be tricky. Especially in harder dungeons like Fang Lair / Scalecaller.

Fundamentally disagree there. Yes, gear level is important, but even gold gear is scaled to 160. Gold gear doesn't get more powerful with every DLC. That's not to say that reducing the differences between gear colours, as you suggest, might be a good idea. But the primary issue with power creep is the CP cap level increases.

CP is far from the main culprit for power creep. From a PvE perspective, all CP added over a year of updates will cause a DPS increase of maybe 7-10% at best. You tell me where the rest of the "powercreep" comes from.......

People highly overestimate CP when it comes to powercreep and fail to realise that the majority of powercreep comes from the changes ZOS does to other combat related mechanics. An example of this is how ZOS buffed light attacks in summerset or made enchants more potent with Murkmire so they could proc more reliable, or when they did a major overhaul to how off-balance works with wrathstone. These 3 changes alone have had more impact on powercreep than CP will ever have.

barney2525

Are you a salesman/saleswoman?

'Oh, don't worry! You get to keep all your CP! '

Small print - You don't get to spend it anymore. But it sure looks pretty sitting on that mantle over the fireplace. Nobody Cares about 'keeping' things that have no use. They care about working toward and achieving that 810 goal. 'Keeping' all the CPs above that is irrelevant.

Anything over 810 is pointless, since it literally does nothing to add to, well, anything. Now you want to reduce it.

Actually, from your presentation, the obvious answer is : Do Nothing

Since each DLC increases in difficulty, and at present, according to your figures, 550 would be adequate to do complete the DLCs, then as DLCs continue to be put into play, the ratio gets closer and closer to the 810.

A few more DLCs and everything becomes challenging.

Its a lot easier than rewriting the entire code of the base game.

ThanatosXR

What power creep? Ive played I million mmos, rs, lotro, rift, swtor , and they had major stat inflation. The problem is people dont seem to know all abot the champion stars and end up putting them in the wrong place

carlos424

Qbiken wrote: »

mjharper wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

CP isn’t the main cause of power creep. It’s a contributor, but there are much bigger factors. Gear colours provide much bigger steps in power - upgrading your weapon from blue to purple, or purple to gold, for example, makes a colossal difference. Two full 5 piece sets and a 2 piece monster or weapon set, compared to an equal level player equipping whatever gear they find naturally, is another huge difference in power. CP is fairly balanced in comparison, but when you add all those systems together it leads to a huge difference.

Personally, I’d like to see gear colours make a smaller difference, and leave CP and set bonuses as they are. But the rebalancing required to make that work will be tricky. Especially in harder dungeons like Fang Lair / Scalecaller.

Fundamentally disagree there. Yes, gear level is important, but even gold gear is scaled to 160. Gold gear doesn't get more powerful with every DLC. That's not to say that reducing the differences between gear colours, as you suggest, might be a good idea. But the primary issue with power creep is the CP cap level increases.

CP is far from the main culprit for power creep. From a PvE perspective, all CP added over a year of updates will cause a DPS increase of maybe 7-10% at best. You tell me where the rest of the "powercreep" comes from.......

People highly overestimate CP when it comes to powercreep and fail to realise that the majority of powercreep comes from the changes ZOS does to other combat related mechanics. An example of this is how ZOS buffed light attacks in summerset or made enchants more potent with Murkmire so they could proc more reliable, or when they did a major overhaul to how off-balance works with wrathstone. These 3 changes alone have had more impact on powercreep than CP will ever have.

Agreed. I would add that making two handed weapons count as 2-pieces (especially staves), allowing for all staff wielding characters to add a 2nd 5-piece set was huge. There have also been some sets added to the game which have increased dps substantially (sororia and relequin come to mind). Go back to pre-Summerset and everyone’s dps goes down 10k

richo262

I'd be happy for them to remove 160 CP points. In fact, it might even be required in order to remove the CP system if that is their intention.

Items are Level 50, CP 160. If they were to double the level to 100, and remove CP they would be able to successfully depeg items from the CP system.

It should have no consequence on a fully leveled character with CP160 gear, and no actual consequence (other than a bit of confusion) on a sub 50 character.

How it works is, everyones base level doubles, as does their item level. Level 30? You are now level 60. Level 50? Now level 100.

160 CP points could be deducted from every bodies account at that point. MAX CP is now 650.

Going forward, characters have to level to 100 rather than 50. It would take a bit longer to level alts. They could even have 100 attribute points (same output as what 64 presently gives).

For CP to be removed cleanly, CP needs to be depegged from items without significant consequence to players.

It would also make the 10 tiers of mats relevant again. Although I think they should be trimmed to 5 tiers in 20 level increments rather than 10 in 10 level. Eg. Iron 1-20, Steel 21-40, Orc 41-60, Dwarf 61-80, Ebony 81-100, scrap the rest.

---

As people lose CP but gain base level they may not feel robbed and be fine with it. However, if ZOS wanted to ease the subtraction of 160 points, they could roll some perks together, ie Mooncalf / Arcanist benefit are put under one perk. Full stam builds won't benefit greatly, nor will mag builds benefit. Hybrid builds will get a little bump though. Light / Med / Heavy can be rolled into one too, as people cant wear 5 piece of each type at any given time .

---

End result. CP cap lowered, Items depegged from CP, CP system shrunk down a bit. Progression of players has not been attacked or robbed in any significant way. The game is now ready for a controlled demolition and replacement of the CP system.

frostz417

It’s been proven cp is not the cause of power creep. But rather overpowered sets are.

frostz417

Qbiken wrote: »

mjharper wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

CP isn’t the main cause of power creep. It’s a contributor, but there are much bigger factors. Gear colours provide much bigger steps in power - upgrading your weapon from blue to purple, or purple to gold, for example, makes a colossal difference. Two full 5 piece sets and a 2 piece monster or weapon set, compared to an equal level player equipping whatever gear they find naturally, is another huge difference in power. CP is fairly balanced in comparison, but when you add all those systems together it leads to a huge difference.

Personally, I’d like to see gear colours make a smaller difference, and leave CP and set bonuses as they are. But the rebalancing required to make that work will be tricky. Especially in harder dungeons like Fang Lair / Scalecaller.

Fundamentally disagree there. Yes, gear level is important, but even gold gear is scaled to 160. Gold gear doesn't get more powerful with every DLC. That's not to say that reducing the differences between gear colours, as you suggest, might be a good idea. But the primary issue with power creep is the CP cap level increases.

CP is far from the main culprit for power creep. From a PvE perspective, all CP added over a year of updates will cause a DPS increase of maybe 7-10% at best. You tell me where the rest of the "powercreep" comes from.......

People highly overestimate CP when it comes to powercreep and fail to realise that the majority of powercreep comes from the changes ZOS does to other combat related mechanics. An example of this is how ZOS buffed light attacks in summerset or made enchants more potent with Murkmire so they could proc more reliable, or when they did a major overhaul to how off-balance works with wrathstone. These 3 changes alone have had more impact on powercreep than CP will ever have.

Finally, someone who actually does their research instead of making ridiculous assumptions

richo262

I'd be happy with them just removing the CP point system and having CP a currency to buy QOL items.

1) Siege bag - X amount of units, doubles for ESO+. Any item that has been withdrawn and not at full HP cannot be put back in.

2) Azura's Star - Holds 500 soul gems, 500 empty soul gem, unlimited Crown gems. ESO+ Unlimited all.

3) Lunchbox - Holds 100 of each food / drink type. ESO+ 200.

4) Alchemy satchel - Holds 200 of each potion, 1,000 of each Poison, unlimited Crown pot/poison. ESO+ 400/2000.

5) Tool belt - Holds 500 repair kits unlimited crown kits. 500 lock picks (or simply no longer required), 10 of each edict. ESO+ Unlimited

6) Furniture wagon - Holds a nominal amount for non subs, unlimited for ESO+

Each one costing CP points to unlock.

DarkerDreams

Lower the cp cap just so they can go back to raising it again?. I'm sorry but that's not going to make me feel like I'm progressing if you take something I already earned away and then slowly give it back over 2 years, that's just going to make a lot of people mad. Change it, tweak it, remove it or leave it the same, I don't care , but removing points just to give them back again so we can feel like we made "progress" would just be wrong, not to mention that would only delay having to fix it.

Robo_Hobo

I think I'd like if CP were changed to be more of a perk system.

Basically like those perks you get at 30, 75, 120 etc, but tweaked and made to be the main focus of CP. No incremental bonuses, and you don't have to put X amount of CP in a tree to get the perks, but instead "buy" the perks directly.

The 75 one would cost 75 CP to unlock, the 120 one would cost 120 to unlock - there maybe could be branches that you have to go through to get to the better ones at the end like in Skyrim, but not necessarily. I think it could work either way. Maybe.

But furthermore, the bonuses wouldn't all be combat related, and a bunch could be purely utility or quality of life things that are helpful and desiresble but won't increase your damage, healing, defense, or sustain directly. There could still be some, though.

Think of some perks like we have now where you collect resources faster, or have a chance to collect multiple, or better chances of rare loot in chests, or the one where mount stamina doesn't drain except from taking damage. A lot more of those types of things. They could do a lot with that and I think it would be more interesting than what we have now, and increasing the CP max then wouldn't have this power creep feeling like we do now, but would instead help you get "just enough" for that other perk point you were just a little off of obtaining, and would be a nice quality of life boon.

Toanis

ThanatosXR wrote: »

What power creep? Ive played I million mmos, rs, lotro, rift, swtor , and they had major stat inflation. The problem is people dont seem to know all abot the champion stars and end up putting them in the wrong place

Stat inflation in most mmos is different, though. It only applies to endgame, and is easily kept in check with expansions making the old gear obsolete. Old content needs to be updated as well if it should stay relevant at engame, so in the end you have to grind a few levels to get back to max, and while all numbers are higher, even with BiS gear you likely end up on a lower relative power level (i.e. time to kill that boss) than you had before the expansion.

When ESO releases a new expansion, it is balanced for CP 160, just like everything else so that lowbies that are buffed to that power level can do it as well. The big difference in power between cp160 and cp810 means that the new content is too easy for the old players who were waiting for new content. It's not as bad as coming back to a lowbie zone at max level in other games, but close.

How to combat it, without nerfing players? I think not increasing max CP so everyone has a chance to catch up, and making future content harder is a good approach. Lowbies can always be buffed to 400 or whatever the new balance goal is. No need to change gear levels.

Shantu

Slash the CP cap? Hell no. Personally I wish ZOS would just leave the current system alone. Yeah, it may contribute some to power creep, but so what? I don't consider that a bad thing. Don't like it? Then don't allocate your CP. ZOS could even offer various achievements and rewards for completing content with low CP allocation. 99% of players can't complete a HM trial as it is. Let people have their power creep and design content more intelligently so that it doesn't devolve into a dps race.

jtm1018

Hell, no!!!

barney2525

richo262 wrote: »

I'd be happy for them to remove 160 CP points. In fact, it might even be required in order to remove the CP system if that is their intention.

Items are Level 50, CP 160. If they were to double the level to 100, and remove CP they would be able to successfully depeg items from the CP system.

It should have no consequence on a fully leveled character with CP160 gear, and no actual consequence (other than a bit of confusion) on a sub 50 character.

How it works is, everyones base level doubles, as does their item level. Level 30? You are now level 60. Level 50? Now level 100.

160 CP points could be deducted from every bodies account at that point. MAX CP is now 650.

Going forward, characters have to level to 100 rather than 50. It would take a bit longer to level alts. They could even have 100 attribute points (same output as what 64 presently gives).

For CP to be removed cleanly, CP needs to be depegged from items without significant consequence to players.

It would also make the 10 tiers of mats relevant again. Although I think they should be trimmed to 5 tiers in 20 level increments rather than 10 in 10 level. Eg. Iron 1-20, Steel 21-40, Orc 41-60, Dwarf 61-80, Ebony 81-100, scrap the rest.

---

As people lose CP but gain base level they may not feel robbed and be fine with it. However, if ZOS wanted to ease the subtraction of 160 points, they could roll some perks together, ie Mooncalf / Arcanist benefit are put under one perk. Full stam builds won't benefit greatly, nor will mag builds benefit. Hybrid builds will get a little bump though. Light / Med / Heavy can be rolled into one too, as people cant wear 5 piece of each type at any given time .

---

End result. CP cap lowered, Items depegged from CP, CP system shrunk down a bit. Progression of players has not been attacked or robbed in any significant way. The game is now ready for a controlled demolition and replacement of the CP system.

Congratulations.

You just skrugeed every new player and drove them away from the game.

"Here ya go" "All you gotta do is reach level 100 - That's One Hundred - and then you can start gaining champion points.

I really do like the way you glossed over the "It would take a BIT longer to level Alts". Yeah, like MONTHS and YEARS to do one, since every level is going to require more XP than the previous one. And exactly Where is all this XP coming from? IMHO it would be extremely difficult to reach 100 levels doing Every quest in Every region in the game.

ESO would definitely NOT be a game played by the Casual player anymore.

I think there is a circular file where we can place this plan.

kmcaj

awful OP

Skwor

mjharper wrote: »

So power creep has become such a problem with the Champion Point system that they've been frozen. Obviously I have no idea what ZOS's solution will be, but how about just lowering the CP cap?

*cries of horror ensue*

Okay, so hear me out.

• The base game is scaled to CP160 difficulty.
• Each DLC raised the max CP level by 30.
• There have been 13 DLCs to date.
• 13x30=390; 390+160=550
• However, the current CP cap is 810.
• That's (810-550=260) CP points which are not tied to DLC at all.
• So, slash them.
• Reduce the CP cap to 160+(number of DLC x 30).

That doesn't mean max level players should lose those CPs, but they should be in 'reserve', as any CP points over 810 currently are. Nobody loses CP, but the amount you can spend is lowered.

This proposal would mean that there would still be some room to expand the CP points in the future: with the current release schedule of 4 DLC a year, it would take just over 2 more years (8/9 DLC) to return to the current level. Which, if nothing else, would give some breathing room for a more permanent solution.

Or a more radical reduction could take place, by reducing the CP increase from 30 to 20. Yes, I know that you get 30 because that's 10 for each of the three branches. But 20 also makes sense in a way, insofar as 160 is divisible by 20 and not 30.

With that more radical solution, you'd have a CP cap of 160+(13x20=260)=420. That would take about 19/20 more DLC to return to the current level, about 5 years of content.

In either case, this would be a solution which left the current system in place by changing as little as possible, while reducing the impact of power creep.

(In case anyone is wondering, I have 950 CP, so the change I'm proposing would absolutely affect me).

This whole thread is invalid, your entire premise the CP has caused power creep and that CP is therefore bad is wrong at every point.

The CP power creep concept has been disproven on numerous threads. Please just stop with all this nonsense.

If anything CP need to increase and the NPC level / base power needs to increase, not be capped or decrease.

barney2525

Robo_Hobo wrote: »

I think I'd like if CP were changed to be more of a perk system.

Basically like those perks you get at 30, 75, 120 etc, but tweaked and made to be the main focus of CP. No incremental bonuses, and you don't have to put X amount of CP in a tree to get the perks, but instead "buy" the perks directly.

The 75 one would cost 75 CP to unlock, the 120 one would cost 120 to unlock - there maybe could be branches that you have to go through to get to the better ones at the end like in Skyrim, but not necessarily. I think it could work either way. Maybe.

But furthermore, the bonuses wouldn't all be combat related, and a bunch could be purely utility or quality of life things that are helpful and desiresble but won't increase your damage, healing, defense, or sustain directly. There could still be some, though.

Think of some perks like we have now where you collect resources faster, or have a chance to collect multiple, or better chances of rare loot in chests, or the one where mount stamina doesn't drain except from taking damage. A lot more of those types of things. They could do a lot with that and I think it would be more interesting than what we have now, and increasing the CP max then wouldn't have this power creep feeling like we do now, but would instead help you get "just enough" for that other perk point you were just a little off of obtaining, and would be a nice quality of life boon.

If you had to Buy the Perk, you would not have the points to Buy the base benefit. People ARE buying what they want - which is the Base Benefit. The Perks are just a bonus.

If what you mean is "Change the stuff you can buy with champion points" , just say that.

And to make a point, right Now, the bonuses are Not all combat related. Some are crafting related. Some enhance your treasure finding.

Skwor

mjharper wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

CP isn’t the main cause of power creep. It’s a contributor, but there are much bigger factors. Gear colours provide much bigger steps in power - upgrading your weapon from blue to purple, or purple to gold, for example, makes a colossal difference. Two full 5 piece sets and a 2 piece monster or weapon set, compared to an equal level player equipping whatever gear they find naturally, is another huge difference in power. CP is fairly balanced in comparison, but when you add all those systems together it leads to a huge difference.

Personally, I’d like to see gear colours make a smaller difference, and leave CP and set bonuses as they are. But the rebalancing required to make that work will be tricky. Especially in harder dungeons like Fang Lair / Scalecaller.

Fundamentally disagree there. Yes, gear level is important, but even gold gear is scaled to 160. Gold gear doesn't get more powerful with every DLC. That's not to say that reducing the differences between gear colours, as you suggest, might be a good idea. But the primary issue with power creep is the CP cap level increases.

Well you are fundamentally wrong in your disagreement. Go back and see how they changed gear sets and light attacks. GEAR changes, new sets and mechanics has caused much more power creep than CP. CP barely has made a dent.

TheShadowScout

mjharper wrote: »

...how about just lowering the CP cap?

Bad idea.

People really don't like it if you take away what they worked hard for.

After all, that "ding - you got better" feeling is one of the main reasons people keep playing games such as ESO, and taking that away would not be in the best interests of ZOS, because they -want- people to play, they -want- people to spend their money on this game and all that.



A much better idea would be -expanding- the CP system while increasing the "reduced benefits" mechanic so that the difference just means less...

I would love to see that, see a great many more options added people can spend their CP on... sub-stars that dilute the boni a bit, making people pick and choose what exactly they want to specialize in... and other side-stars that maybe give non-combat boni...

Ratzkifal

Your "solution" basically reads "divide all damage by 100, then add 1% of the original back every month and we get 8 years worth of progression". A very naive suggestion that's not going to help anyone.

Overworld is scaled to lvl50, not 160CP. The DLC zones are scaled to 160CP perhaps, but not the base game. vetDLC dungeons are balanced for 300CP and vetDLC hardmodes around 600CP but the line is a lot more blurry there.

People who want progression want to become stronger and stronger the longer they play. This is impossible to achieve in ESO as long as everything scales, because the game devs want content to stay relevant. CP have been used to give people power and circumvent the need to make sets more powerful with every release or increase the level cap or max skill from skill lines.

The problem is that the game can only handle this much potential power before every content becomes too easy for people at the cap. This is not good because the only reason to scale content was so that people at the endgame still had relevant content and wouldn't get bored. So with every update, power needed to be taken out of the system to prevent power creep. Most of the time this resulted in nerfs to sets and classes. Now a lot of people are frustrated with the constant nerfs and call for the system to be changed, but there isn't a lot that ZOS can do that wouldn't have the same problems return in some form or another.

So far the best solution for me would be to take power out of CP and replace it with quality of life buffs, but that is obviously not going to satisfy everyone who demands "progression".

Fleshreaper

So, your answer to it, is to punish long time players, to appease new players. Probably not a great idea. It would make more sense to just increase the catch up rate. I mean, still a better idea is just to make 610 CP points a level 50 reward.

Dojohoda

I'm hoping they will unleash the Kraken and let me use more of my CP. I earned it dadgummit!!