Are Resellers Considered OK?

srfrogg23

lbattros_ESO wrote: »

Some of the mega-rich old-timers have been buying up those craft items necessary for advancement, (such as zircon, things to rersearch and make speed and triad jewelry, Hakeijo, dreugh wax, zircon, chromium, etc) and reselling at inflated prices. Tamriel trade then Centre automatically increases it's suggested price and permanant inflation happens as normal players set their prices by that. Are the devs OK with that?

Me, I've been here a year now so I have enough to buy the stuff at those prices but I hate it and this makes it impossible for some newer players to progress so they go play a game where the economy works for everybody..... and maybe even have an auction house so guilds can be guilds and not be obsessed with raising money for their selling spots.

Just strikes me as hurting the fun.

You're obviously wrong. This sort of thing only happens with Global AH systems. It can't happen here.

VaranisArano

srfrogg23 wrote: »

lbattros_ESO wrote: »

Some of the mega-rich old-timers have been buying up those craft items necessary for advancement, (such as zircon, things to rersearch and make speed and triad jewelry, Hakeijo, dreugh wax, zircon, chromium, etc) and reselling at inflated prices. Tamriel trade then Centre automatically increases it's suggested price and permanant inflation happens as normal players set their prices by that. Are the devs OK with that?

Me, I've been here a year now so I have enough to buy the stuff at those prices but I hate it and this makes it impossible for some newer players to progress so they go play a game where the economy works for everybody..... and maybe even have an auction house so guilds can be guilds and not be obsessed with raising money for their selling spots.

Just strikes me as hurting the fun.

You're obviously wrong. This sort of thing only happens with Global AH systems. It can't happen here.

Its not impossible for people to manipulate the prices of items in ESO, even across a server.

It just typically happens for specific items, and is relatively short-lived.

I remember one particular example on PC/NA. When the Outfit System dropped, someone bought up all the Minotaur chest motifs and relisted them for 150k (when the rest of the set was selling for 10-15k ea.). It was obviously someone manipulating the market to take advantage of people who wanted the "skimpy" minotaur chest style.

It lasted, oh, about as long as the initial rush on motifs did. Once nobody was buying the chest piece at that high price, the Chest motif dropped in value again because there was no demand, and thus no value in expending the effort to manipulate the market. Yeah, it annoyed the players who wanted that chest motif right now. I assumed the price would drop in a while, and it did, so I saved my money.

Still, the effort that person had to put in - going to guild stores and buying the cheaper motifs to relist them - was a lot more effort than they would if it were a centralized auction house. A central Auction House lowers the amount of work it takes to hunt bargains and relist them, making the effort-to-profit ratio swing much more in the favor of relisters and market manipulators.

So its not impossible to manipulate the market in ESO. Its just harder to stay on top of that market for extended periods of time, which is why it mostly happens with specific, rarer items and only for a relatively short time before the profit vanishes or it takes too much time to be worth it.

(As for things like Hakeijo, I have to laugh, because I call the Imperial City event the "Annual Hakeijo Sale." )

EllieBlue

Facefister wrote: »

Mitrenga wrote: »

[...]Auction house would devastate ESO economy.[...]

It would not. It would free up the economy even further since everyone can sell their stuff. You fear that if that happens, that you can't "scam" people with overpriced tempers before a DLC/chapter hits since you're the only one who holds key traders.

You, good sir, have very little, if not, zero knowledge about trading in this game. Some very very rich people in the game will camp the auction house and snap buy every single cheap/cheap-ish priced "valuable" items the very second it is listed and resell them at the price that they deemed fit. You will not even get a glimpse of these valuable items at the cheap prices they were listed initially. That is how fast these items will get snapped up. Then you can really talk about scams. Right now, everyone can list these items at any price they want and if you are fast enough, maybe you will find a bargain because of the time factor where people have to travel from trader to trader, you might get there before the resellers.

Sylosi

Androconium wrote: »

As I wrote above, but you appear to have misinterpreted:

• ZOS set some basic parameters.
• Players decide how valuable any item is
• Players are not forced to choose any specific behaviour.

The value of nearly everything in this game is dictated by game design decisions, players merely follow that with a small amount of leeway in certain aspects in regard to notions like "sometimes there is no accounting for taste" or attempts to price fix on certain items (which is made relatively easy, precisely because this is so far from a free market). ZOS nerf one armour set, that reduces demand, ZOS nerfs drop rates on something that reduces supply, new broken OP food recipe requires ingredient X, demand for X goes up, etc, players just follow along.

Androconium wrote: »

If you know the market well enough, you can place that green Inferno Staff of Mother's Sorrow up for sale at 75 000, regardless of trait. It will still sell within 24 hours as someone, somewhere, will pay anything to get one; even if that have to re-trait and improve it themselves. no-one forces this player's behaviour; they are FREE to use the MARKET as they find it.

You don't even seem to understand what the free market is, so here is a definition for you:

"In economics, a free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are determined by the open market and by consumers. In a free market, the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government or other authority and from all forms of economic privilege, monopolies and artificial scarcities"

Note the latter half that is bolded, that is why ESO is not even close to being a free market and is in fact the opposite, a highly controlled market. And why comparisons to a communist state are appropriate, Zenimax is a monopoly that has complete control over what goods even exist in the market, far more control over supply, demand and behaviour than any government. And let's not even go into the artificial scarcities in this game's economy.

Androconium wrote: »

Whatever point you are trying to make here, you aren't doing it very well.

I would have thought it was obvious, someone claimed ESO is "the free market" I'm pointing out that it is not. If you are having trouble understanding that then I suggest that has more to do with you not understanding what 'the free market' is, than anything else.

ZonasArch

Sylosi wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

As I wrote above, but you appear to have misinterpreted:

• ZOS set some basic parameters.
• Players decide how valuable any item is
• Players are not forced to choose any specific behaviour.

The value of nearly everything in this game is dictated by game design decisions, players merely follow that with a small amount of leeway in certain aspects in regard to notions like "sometimes there is no accounting for taste". ZOS nerf one armour set, that reduces demand, ZOS nerfs drop rates on something that reduces supply, etc, players just follow along.

Androconium wrote: »

If you know the market well enough, you can place that green Inferno Staff of Mother's Sorrow up for sale at 75 000, regardless of trait. It will still sell within 24 hours as someone, somewhere, will pay anything to get one; even if that have to re-trait and improve it themselves. no-one forces this player's behaviour; they are FREE to use the MARKET as they find it.

You don't even seem to understand what the free market is, so here is a definition for you:

"In economics, a free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are determined by the open market and by consumers. In a free market, the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government or other authority and from all forms of economic privilege, monopolies and artificial scarcities"

Note the latter half that is bolded, that is why ESO is not even close to being a free market and is in fact the opposite, a highly controlled market. And why comparisons to a communist state are appropriate, Zenimax is a monopoly that has complete control over what goods even exist in the market, far more control over supply, demand and behaviour than any government. And let's not even go into the artificial scarcities in this game's economy.

Androconium wrote: »

Whatever point you are trying to make here, you aren't doing it very well.

I would have thought it was obvious, someone claimed ESO is "the free market" I'm pointing out that it is not. If you are having trouble understanding that then I suggest that has more to do with you not even understanding what 'the free market' is, than anything else.

Oh boy... 😂

LeagueTroll

Bruh if reselling is banned what about crafting. I make most the gold on tri glyphs ad pots at a 10% thin profit margin.

therift

Sylosi wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

As I wrote above, but you appear to have misinterpreted:

• ZOS set some basic parameters.
• Players decide how valuable any item is
• Players are not forced to choose any specific behaviour.

The value of nearly everything in this game is dictated by game design decisions, players merely follow that with a small amount of leeway in certain aspects in regard to notions like "sometimes there is no accounting for taste" or attempts to price fix on certain items (which is made relatively easy, precisely because this is so far from a free market). ZOS nerf one armour set, that reduces demand, ZOS nerfs drop rates on something that reduces supply, new broken OP food recipe requires ingredient X, demand for X goes up, etc, players just follow along.

Androconium wrote: »

If you know the market well enough, you can place that green Inferno Staff of Mother's Sorrow up for sale at 75 000, regardless of trait. It will still sell within 24 hours as someone, somewhere, will pay anything to get one; even if that have to re-trait and improve it themselves. no-one forces this player's behaviour; they are FREE to use the MARKET as they find it.

You don't even seem to understand what the free market is, so here is a definition for you:

"In economics, a free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are determined by the open market and by consumers. In a free market, the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government or other authority and from all forms of economic privilege, monopolies and artificial scarcities."

I would have thought it was obvious, someone claimed ESO is "the free market" I'm pointing out that it is not. If you are having trouble understanding that then I suggest that has more to do with you not understanding what 'the free market' is, than anything else.

Before copypasting a quote from Wikipedia, you must first understand the concept you are quoting. It is also unwise to leave out any following paragraphs which explain the quote you copypasted.

Your quote defeats the point you attempted to make. I adjusted your boldface to help you understand. ZoS levies no taxes, imposes no restrictions, establishes no price controls, nor requires any qualifications for players to trade with one another.

If you are about to claim that resource spawns or trading kiosks are "artificial scarcities"... please don't. It doesn't mean what you think it means, and you will need to dive deeper into a Wikipedia explanation than you did with "Free Market".

However, your entire point is moot. None of your arguments apply in an artificial economy, as I explained to you earlier.

Sylosi

therift wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

As I wrote above, but you appear to have misinterpreted:

• ZOS set some basic parameters.
• Players decide how valuable any item is
• Players are not forced to choose any specific behaviour.

The value of nearly everything in this game is dictated by game design decisions, players merely follow that with a small amount of leeway in certain aspects in regard to notions like "sometimes there is no accounting for taste" or attempts to price fix on certain items (which is made relatively easy, precisely because this is so far from a free market). ZOS nerf one armour set, that reduces demand, ZOS nerfs drop rates on something that reduces supply, new broken OP food recipe requires ingredient X, demand for X goes up, etc, players just follow along.

Androconium wrote: »

If you know the market well enough, you can place that green Inferno Staff of Mother's Sorrow up for sale at 75 000, regardless of trait. It will still sell within 24 hours as someone, somewhere, will pay anything to get one; even if that have to re-trait and improve it themselves. no-one forces this player's behaviour; they are FREE to use the MARKET as they find it.

You don't even seem to understand what the free market is, so here is a definition for you:

"In economics, a free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are determined by the open market and by consumers. In a free market, the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government or other authority and from all forms of economic privilege, monopolies and artificial scarcities."

I would have thought it was obvious, someone claimed ESO is "the free market" I'm pointing out that it is not. If you are having trouble understanding that then I suggest that has more to do with you not understanding what 'the free market' is, than anything else.

Before copypasting a quote from Wikipedia, you must first understand the concept you are quoting. It is also unwise to leave out any following paragraphs which explain the quote you copypasted.

Your quote defeats the point you attempted to make. I adjusted your boldface to help you understand. ZoS levies no taxes, imposes no restrictions, establishes no price controls, nor requires any qualifications for players to trade with one another.

If you are about to claim that resource spawns or trading kiosks are "artificial scarcities"... please don't. I will have to educate you once again.

However, your entire point is moot. None of your arguments apply in an artificial economy, as I explained to you earlier.

Your entire point is moot because your distinctions between virtual and real economics are arbitrary. Which is why I ignored your nonsense the first time.

And I understand the concepts just fine, as for copy and pasting, maybe you are new to the internet and don't grasp why it is often better to point elsewhere than to simply claim what defines something yourself and be told something to the effect of "says who?".

therift

Sylosi wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

As I wrote above, but you appear to have misinterpreted:

• ZOS set some basic parameters.
• Players decide how valuable any item is
• Players are not forced to choose any specific behaviour.

The value of nearly everything in this game is dictated by game design decisions, players merely follow that with a small amount of leeway in certain aspects in regard to notions like "sometimes there is no accounting for taste" or attempts to price fix on certain items (which is made relatively easy, precisely because this is so far from a free market). ZOS nerf one armour set, that reduces demand, ZOS nerfs drop rates on something that reduces supply, new broken OP food recipe requires ingredient X, demand for X goes up, etc, players just follow along.

Androconium wrote: »

If you know the market well enough, you can place that green Inferno Staff of Mother's Sorrow up for sale at 75 000, regardless of trait. It will still sell within 24 hours as someone, somewhere, will pay anything to get one; even if that have to re-trait and improve it themselves. no-one forces this player's behaviour; they are FREE to use the MARKET as they find it.

You don't even seem to understand what the free market is, so here is a definition for you:

"In economics, a free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are determined by the open market and by consumers. In a free market, the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government or other authority and from all forms of economic privilege, monopolies and artificial scarcities."

I would have thought it was obvious, someone claimed ESO is "the free market" I'm pointing out that it is not. If you are having trouble understanding that then I suggest that has more to do with you not understanding what 'the free market' is, than anything else.

Before copypasting a quote from Wikipedia, you must first understand the concept you are quoting. It is also unwise to leave out any following paragraphs which explain the quote you copypasted.

Your quote defeats the point you attempted to make. I adjusted your boldface to help you understand. ZoS levies no taxes, imposes no restrictions, establishes no price controls, nor requires any qualifications for players to trade with one another.

If you are about to claim that resource spawns or trading kiosks are "artificial scarcities"... please don't. I will have to educate you once again.

However, your entire point is moot. None of your arguments apply in an artificial economy, as I explained to you earlier.

Your entire point is moot because your distinctions between virtual and real economics are arbitrary. Which is why I ignored your nonsense the first time.

Nonsense.

It is okay to not understand the difference between artificial and real world economics. It's not a subject gamers would ordinarily be interested in and is not necessary to enjoy gaming.

But your insistence that definitions drawn from real world economic science should apply equally and without qualifications to artificial economies is flat-out wrong. You have been shown this.

You can continue to argue that game designers interfere in game economics. There are numerous examples for you to explore. However, denying that "Free Market" principals govern trading in ESO demonstrates a minimal understanding of economic science.

Cerra

You do not need to take part in the economy AT ALL in order to play the game. I farm what I want and sell my excess to NPCs. I may only have about a million gold, but even when I spend it on something like bag space I seem to get it back quickly just selling green and white items to the vendors.

Just play the game and ignore the guild stores.

therift

Sylosi wrote: »

therift wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Androconium wrote: »

As I wrote above, but you appear to have misinterpreted:

• ZOS set some basic parameters.
• Players decide how valuable any item is
• Players are not forced to choose any specific behaviour.

The value of nearly everything in this game is dictated by game design decisions, players merely follow that with a small amount of leeway in certain aspects in regard to notions like "sometimes there is no accounting for taste" or attempts to price fix on certain items (which is made relatively easy, precisely because this is so far from a free market). ZOS nerf one armour set, that reduces demand, ZOS nerfs drop rates on something that reduces supply, new broken OP food recipe requires ingredient X, demand for X goes up, etc, players just follow along.

Androconium wrote: »

If you know the market well enough, you can place that green Inferno Staff of Mother's Sorrow up for sale at 75 000, regardless of trait. It will still sell within 24 hours as someone, somewhere, will pay anything to get one; even if that have to re-trait and improve it themselves. no-one forces this player's behaviour; they are FREE to use the MARKET as they find it.

You don't even seem to understand what the free market is, so here is a definition for you:

"In economics, a free market is a system in which the prices for goods and services are determined by the open market and by consumers. In a free market, the laws and forces of supply and demand are free from any intervention by a government or other authority and from all forms of economic privilege, monopolies and artificial scarcities."

I would have thought it was obvious, someone claimed ESO is "the free market" I'm pointing out that it is not. If you are having trouble understanding that then I suggest that has more to do with you not understanding what 'the free market' is, than anything else.

Before copypasting a quote from Wikipedia, you must first understand the concept you are quoting. It is also unwise to leave out any following paragraphs which explain the quote you copypasted.

Your quote defeats the point you attempted to make. I adjusted your boldface to help you understand. ZoS levies no taxes, imposes no restrictions, establishes no price controls, nor requires any qualifications for players to trade with one another.

If you are about to claim that resource spawns or trading kiosks are "artificial scarcities"... please don't. I will have to educate you once again.

However, your entire point is moot. None of your arguments apply in an artificial economy, as I explained to you earlier.

And I understand the concepts just fine, as for copy and pasting, maybe you are new to the internet and don't grasp why it is often better to point elsewhere than to simply claim what defines something yourself and be told something to the effect of "says who?".

I agree with referencing independent, third-party sources. Wikipedia is a fine reference in most cases. Making my point again, your Wikipedia reference proves that ESO's economy meets the definition of "Free Market".

Sylosi

therift wrote: »

But your insistence that definitions drawn from real world economic science should apply equally and without qualifications to artificial economies is flat-out wrong. You have been shown this.

No I haven't, your distinctions are arbitrary.

therift wrote: »

However, denying that "Free Market" principals govern trading in ESO demonstrates a minimal understanding of economic science.

"Free market" principles are part of various trades even in a command economy, that does not make that economy an example of "the free market". Maybe you should spend less time in front of your PC to better understand the nuances of language.

therift wrote: »

Making my point again, your Wikipedia reference proves that ESO's economy meets the definition of "Free Market".

I am sure in your head it does.

therift

""Free market" principles are part of various trades even in a command economy, that does not make that economy an example of "the free market". Maybe you should spend less time in front of your PC to better understand the nuisances of language."

I got a big kick out of that typo.

Judging from your reception to point after point I have proven against your argument, I wonder if I have become a 'nuisance'. Painful truths often are.

Sylosi

therift wrote: »

I got a big kick out of that typo.

Not quite a typo, more of "clicko" on the spellchecker. But yes it was funny.

therift wrote: »

Judging from your reception to point after point I have proven against your argument...

You keep clutching those straws.

Cpt_Teemo

Reselling is legit yes but not for real $

Lisutaris

Reselling on small scale is ok and fine. Guild Trader system (bazar) makes this very profitable and TESO wants it to be this way... otherwise we would have a global auction/trading house.

BUT I don't like "reselling" on a very huge/giant scale to push prices higher as they actually are ... (yeah, big trading guilds, I am talking about you )
Therefore, reselling for your own profit yes, reselling on guild(s) scale nope, you should be ashamed of yourself if you are doing that.

therift

Sylosi wrote: »

therift wrote: »

I got a big kick out of that typo.

Not quite a typo, more of "clicko" on the spellchecker. But yes it was funny.

therift wrote: »

Judging from your reception to point after point I have proven against your argument...

You keep clutching those straws.

Lol Good discussion

ZonasArch

You guys keep trying to argue against this one stubborn dude, not realizing they'll never change their mind. They went after the free market page on Wikipedia and still believe it didn't apply to ESO. I mean... You can keep bashing against a door for days but it won't budge. A door has no brains to understand subtlety, to understand a simple page on Wikipedia. You don't argue against a door. That makes your a crazy person, you know? Just let the door be the door, and we can keep enjoying our free market and reselling as much as we want, whenever we want, because there's no governing entity interfering with it to make us stop.

WolfingHour

Nuances of language. :Lol: it's a definition, not poetry, so its not subject to interpretation.

If you want to sell AND want to participate in the major trade hubs you need to pay taxes on some guilds. The minimum price of something is determined by NPC vendors, and that price is set by ZOS. Goods are not infinitely available, instead goods have a chance to drop, which again is fixed (for long stretches of time) and determined by ZOS.

These are points that move the needle from Free Market into regulated. I wouldn't say ESO is entirely free market, although it does feel like that at face value.

Sylosi

ZonasArch wrote: »

You guys keep trying to argue against this one stubborn dude, not realizing they'll never change their mind. They went after the free market page on Wikipedia and still believe it didn't apply to ESO. I mean... You can keep bashing against a door for days but it won't budge. A door has no brains to understand subtlety, to understand a simple page on Wikipedia. You don't argue against a door. That makes your a crazy person, you know? Just let the door be the door, and we can keep enjoying our free market and reselling as much as we want, whenever we want, because there's no governing entity interfering with it to make us stop.

The irony...

The actual 'subtlety' is too much for you and your buddy, which is that ESO gives the illusion of the "free market" to people like you.

So for example someone claimed that it does not have price controls, which putting aside is wrong as pointed out above (the vendor price sets a minimum price), more importantly misses the subtlety of how they control prices. (And ironically a difference between the real world and a virtual economy (at least in a dumb simplistic linear, themepark game)).

Which is Zenimax don't need to heap tons of price controls directly on transactions because in ESO they are "God", if the price of something becomes too high for their liking, then they can simply increase the drop rate, add it as some reward to certain content, etc to increase the supply and thereby lower the price.

Now the real thing to note, is not merely that being "God" affords them many mechanisms to control prices, it is that for a game like this it is vastly superior to more obvious direct price controls, because it is "out of plain sight" as it were. Which enables them to give the illusion of 'the free market' to more simple folk, who can't grasp that subtlety, yet want to pretend to themselves for some tragically misplaced sense of "achievement" or something, that they are operating in "the free market".