Shadowy Disguise

khajiitNPC

Hello. Nightblade main here (I have 15 max lvl characters of each class, stam and mag, as well as 5 psijics for each class) I’m well aware there are many counters to shadowy disguise, but a lot of them don’t work very well.

I understand the need to be able to reset the combat for a NB, but what I find infuriating, especially with the recent mobility changes, is our ability to disengage so quickly, and basically evade death without repercussion.

What I propose is similar to the sorc treatment and roll dodge, but with a twist. At a certain health threshold it should kick in and increase the cost of magicka.

khajiitNPC

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Miriel

khajiitNPC wrote: »

@ZOS_BrianWheeler

There is pots that counter invis, and alot of other skills, use them...

lukoi

I get run down plenty when I decide to try and cloak and reposition and dont find it be a clean hot out of jail card as you imply OP. There seem to be plenty of ways to counter it, and frankly I dont have alot of problem sticking to opponent NBs that try it on their end.

khajiitNPC

@Miriel Yes I’m well aware of those but they aren’t reliable. As a NB main I run 16k health in Cyro, and all stat recovery drink, I can cloak in a ball group laying down AoEs and dip out no problem. That’s a problem. I have no issue disengaging and I don’t think that should be removed in its entirety, but I think a NB whether stam or mag gets down to that critical point of death shouldn’t be able to disengaged without consequence or counterplay.

Also I’ve compiled a complete list of all the things including sets that will pull a NB out of stealth.

It’s called being objective and healthy game play.

khajiitNPC

@lukoi explain your method

lukoi

Method for what specifically?

khajiitNPC

Sticking to NB opponents.

khajiitNPC

As a stamblade I can cloak almost indefinitely by understanding how stealth works, I’m not sure how anyone can say they can’t, and yes stuff does pull me out of stealth but I know I can pop a speed pot and at any moment disappear without repercussion. I’m suggesting we keep this component but make it harder to avoid death by simple cheese. This means actually learning to fight without cloak crutch. I feel like if I could survive with this sort of penalty my opponents death will be even more glorious. Or vice versa.

lukoi

So cloaking as a bread and butter skill is reliant on terrain to a significant degree in my experience so far.

The cloak doesnt last that long and if you've waited too long to make the decision to cut and run, you pay for the decision (usually my result lol).

That being said, if I'm fighting a NB and they are cloaking to evac, I see one of two things happen....they use the cloak and turn in (at me) so when they come out, they are behind me usually and can get away, or they use terrain to put a corner in between me and them. That's I'd they are smart. Others will try to spam cloak and run, but that usually (resources willing) results in them dying when they run out of magicka.

Between pots, caltrops, (and the other AOE/CC I've fought against), it's been made clear to me to not rely on cloak too heavily. Cloak + terrain to break LOS, sprint, heal and reverse are best options I've found (both as the runner and those I'm chasing).

I'm new to the game, but mainline this NB and after entering my fourth month of the game am pushing a reasonably consistent 3-4:1 overall KDR in BGs (higher in Cyro), as the fundamentals to pvp in this game seem consistent with others I've played: postioning/LOS, burst vice Sustained damage, CC timing, resource management.

I'm by no means an expert but I dont find NBs cloaking to be nearly that large of a challenge so far.

khajiitNPC

Interesting and informative. Thank you.

Miriel

khajiitNPC wrote: »

@Miriel Yes I’m well aware of those but they aren’t reliable. As a NB main I run 16k health in Cyro, and all stat recovery drink, I can cloak in a ball group laying down AoEs and dip out no problem. That’s a problem. I have no issue disengaging and I don’t think that should be removed in its entirety, but I think a NB whether stam or mag gets down to that critical point of death shouldn’t be able to disengaged without consequence or counterplay.

Also I’ve compiled a complete list of all the things including sets that will pull a NB out of stealth.

It’s called being objective and healthy game play.

Then your obviously not a threat, as a NB healer, Aurora Nightrose, stealth and speed is my defence, the moment i cast i pop out of health and i have hell comming my way, everything from caltrops, flares, to charging templars to dragonknights to wingit... if i dont move and keep cloaking im dead, dead and dead... and that is with over 30k health full impen...

I think you are clueless about what your talking about, there is plenty of things to counter stealth and cloak, but people are lazy and dont want to use counters that exist since that would change their presious ultimate set up... and sorry thats not the gamesfoult that you dont want to use the skills that exist

khajiitNPC

Miriel you can think what you want but I’ve been playing since beta. On both Xbox and PC. Like I said if you like a list of all the things that can pull you of stealth I’d be more than happy to supply them. But this is. Thread about promoting healthy game play, as stamNB main I know what it’s capable of and how easy it is to cheese.

BoxFoxx

I am realizing that the is a big gap in skill level amongst Nightblades. Ones that use cloak as a crutch and pros that exploit it. I think if there is an cost increase along with a duration increase, it should balance out a bit better.

The Undeath passive for Vampire Nightblades contributes to what you’re speaking of Khaj...

I don’t think that should be nerfed though, it’s a good skill. MIstform however needs a cost increase. Though most NBs don’t use that since they have Shadowy Disguise.

Detect pots are the best counter to Shadowy Disguise and I carry them, but I’m probably 1 in like 100 that do, so statistically it’s not effective since most people don’t carry them. Considering too using a pot for detect wastes pot cooldowns for a health or recovery pot. Say you engage in battle against a high burst NB, if you need a pot to survive, you’re screwed on the cool down.

Miriel

khajiitNPC wrote: »

Miriel you can think what you want but I’ve been playing since beta. On both Xbox and PC. Like I said if you like a list of all the things that can pull you of stealth I’d be more than happy to supply them. But this is. Thread about promoting healthy game play, as stamNB main I know what it’s capable of and how easy it is to cheese.

yes couse people dont use the counters that exist... USE THEM

susmitds

Mag Sorc Main here. Nerf us plz. We OP.

....


Yeah, let's get real. you ain't a NB main.

Gilvoth

khajiitNPC wrote: »

you like a list of all the things that can pull you of stealth I’d be more than happy to supply them.

ok,i do.
please make that list.
i would love to see.
being serious.

khajiitNPC wrote: »

evade death without repercussion.

you mean like casting and keeping stacked a constant 3 shields on the sorcerer and they are able to survive and evade death.
and also like mass heals on the templars that help them evade death
and also like the heals and tanking / survivability on the dragonight and the wardens
they can do the same thing, our defense is stealth.



they have the same tools to defense but,
you want to remove ours but not theirs?
is not a good idea, not fair, and not balance.



[edited to remove baiting commentary]

Iskiab

There’s definitely a skill gap between Nightblades, but there’s a larger skill gap between opponents.

If you’re fighting against new solo players and people trying to find skyshards then yea, cloak’s great. If you’re fighting against people who are there intending to fight solo or in a small group it’s not that great.

Try finding opponents looking for a fight when you engage.

idk

I can safely say magelight works well for pulling NBs out of stealth.

BoxFoxx

Alternatively what might work is if there was a change in detriments to vampires. Instead of health recovery detriment a healing received detriment. Resolving Vigor would be affected. This would be a big stab at vampire stamblades... it wouldn’t go down well... but without the health recovery detriment you could see more running sets like troll king for survivability, at the cost of a damage boost set in its place.

Nah bad idea.

khajiitNPC

It’s preposterous that naysayers aren’t open to balancing and automatically want to be like “you aren’t a NB”. Thankfully some of you are up for healthy discussion. And yeah I’ll post a list of gear and abilities that will pull a NB out of stealth. Give me a bit.

Gilvoth

just want to be sure here, because you are saying you waited 6 years to make a forum account and post your desire to remove invisibility as a defence from us nightblades?
im just asking, im being serious.

khajiitNPC

@Gilvoth I’m not sure I understand the reasoning to your question. And it’s not a blanket nerf that I’m proposing. What I proposed is at a certain health threshold for the cost increase of magicka for cloak to kick in, but I understand with the calling of so many nerfs it is off-putting.

I for one would enjoy the challenge as a NB. But to each their own. The beauty of healthy conversation is that we don’t have to agree, yet we can still discuss whatever, ultimately I doubt devs will look at any thread seriously because they have their own vision of the game.

I’m perfectly happy with how NB is performing, why wouldn’t I be? Kills are kills. And got stacks of them whether in BG, OW, or solo. I don’t win every single battle and that’s ok. I don’t have to since my validity isn’t hung up on my k/d ratio. I’m just using the forum to you know, discuss the game we all love.

Knootewoot

OP is stamblade. Cloak is not OP, it's the combination of cloak/medium armor passives and dodge troll.

Try escaping as a (melee) magblade with all the aoe's and snares.

Always when an NB asks for nerfs of their own class skills, it's a stamNB. Not everyone runs stamina in medium or heavy.

Iskiab

More likely a troll, especially considering his account was created yesterday.

darkblue5

The main thing I think conceptually matters is that in many ways Shadow Disguise is a secondary defensive mechanism that scales with the power of your other defenses.

Only ganking newbs? 100% effective defense.

Stamina rollerblade? Best hope they don't have hard hitting AOE damage and Detect pots. Thankfully, that'll be rare next patch.

(No, AOEs and Detect pots aren't total doom for stamblades but they are preeeetty darn effective if your opponents are half competent.)

Meanwhile if you have bad defense options Shadowy Disguise is often bad. AKA magblade on live only really works decently when ganking. In that case why not play a stamblade which kills about as well and has better tools for escape?

The new Grim Focus mitigation will make Shadowy Disguise work even better which is good for magblade. Might not be a big buff with all the buffed AOE damage. Might be just treading water.

killingspreeb16_ESO

Knootewoot wrote: »

OP is stamblade. Cloak is not OP, it's the combination of cloak/medium armor passives and dodge troll.

Try escaping as a (melee) magblade with all the aoe's and snares.

Always when an NB asks for nerfs of their own class skills, it's a stamNB. Not everyone runs stamina in medium or heavy.

OP is not even a NB imo.

I can create a topic about a class and say i main the said class and the skill X should be nerfed.
And why a stamblade should ask for a cloak nerf?or any mageblade nerf?
Especially when mageblade are so rare this days.

ilcavallo

khajiitNPC wrote: »

Hello. Nightblade main here (I have 15 max lvl characters of each class, stam and mag, as well as 5 psijics for each class) I’m well aware there are many counters to shadowy disguise, but a lot of them don’t work very well.

I understand the need to be able to reset the combat for a NB, but what I find infuriating, especially with the recent mobility changes, is our ability to disengage so quickly, and basically evade death without repercussion.

What I propose is similar to the sorc treatment and roll dodge, but with a twist. At a certain health threshold it should kick in and increase the cost of magicka.

Weird. I've never had a problem breaking cloak

khajiitNPC

Lol. Since I’m new here and already being accused of being a troll, I’ll give you some history. I started on PC moved to Xbox.

I’ve played the full duration of the game. Those saying I’m not a NB don’t know how ridiculous that is considering you don’t know me. I exclusively play Khajiit. Way before we got the crit damage bonus to magicka (Or really just the orginal passive/OG ***), i was playing Khajiit gimped magicka classes. In fact I have 15 Khajiit, stam and mag of each class, and then a psijiic of each class. And most of them are decent lvl in Cyrodiil without chasing AP.

Horrible NBs aren’t hard to keep out of stealth. It’s the good ones that are. I know because I am one. Speed/lingering health pots and understanding how your opponent’s mind works plus cloak, gtfo of here. And if you’re a NB whether mag or stam that can’t consistantly (does not mean always) reset a fight with cloak or get away at 99 percent of time, then you’re just a crap NB.

Instead all I see is a bunch of qq baby NB who prefer to get a blanket nerf. Because cloak will be nerfd make no mistake about that. Now would you rather have a streak nerf or talk about a way to encourage heathy game play for our class?

lukoi

@khajiitNPC, I dont think a blanket nerf is warranted, nor do I honestly believe one is really coming atm. This next major set of changes will need to shake out, and the dust settle a bit I think.

I dont believe you've shown why it deserves a nerf of any kind to be honest here, and while I respect your opinion, not sure why simply disagreeing with your point on the face of things makes someone a QQer or bad NB.

khajiitNPC

@lukoi I agree I shouldn’t have been so off the cuff with that reply. I do think shadowy disguise is ridiculous in good hands. I’m only speaking from personal experience. If you don’t see the issue than that’s fine. It’s possible you’re a better player, but from my experience the only truly reliable way to shut down a good NB in the past was marked target. But they decreased the duration to 4 seconds. Which is laughable.

Looking at the PTS everyone is going to be a lot more mobile and have access to a lot of different forms of snare immunization, coupled with the decrease in snare and immobilization times, and on top that we are getting a pretty strong ultimate — yes I can see a nerf coming pretty soon. So instead of a blanket nerf that would completely shut down our playstyle, my suggestion was a cost increase at a certain threshold of health where magicka cost more. I don’t think that’s unreasonable considering sorc’s streak has a cost increase, dk wings no longer reflect, ect.

I’m just suggesting a preemptive view of a possible future. And maybe it won’t ever happen. But I personally would rather be able to play the same way I do now, than to just get a complete double cost any time I use shadowy disguise.