New Grim Focus is strange

MartiniDaniels

With Incap hysteria everybody forgot about Grim Focus, so I tested it for a while and ability looks like a cheese.
After expiring it is active on background for eternity while you are "in combat". This means that in case of long fight, you may build up it spamming LA bow attacks and then approach for a gank wherever in any time, without wasting resources and time and bother. Of course skilled NBs already approached with built up focus, but now it doesn't require anything, you just spam LA, stay in combat and have permanent +15% damage reduction and have spectral bow proc ready anytime after new activation.
Also it provides % of damage heal instead of % health heal. % of damage heal looks like bad idea because it will give glass cannon magblades notable burst heal, while PVE NB tanks receive absolutely nothing. In my opinion it's better to change it to something like 20% HP heal.

So this ability gives nothing on initial cast, have virtually infinite duration of proc, damage-scaled heal and now will require much less skill to use properly. All this looks like BS in PVE and OP in PVP? Why not provide 5% (+2% on each LA for maximum of 15) damage reduction while ability is active, HP% heal and get rid of proc "stored" while ability inactive? Also give 30 seconds duration to magicka version (for PVE viability mostly).

jypcy

Just bringing it up here because I’ve mentioned it elsewhere/Elsweyr:
Grim focus: 20 sec buff that allows you to build five stacks (1 per LA, 2 per HA). Each stack reduces damage taken by x%. Having five stacks turns ability into Assassin’s Will, which fires a magic damage projectile at a target. If the projectile hits, heal for x% of max health.
Relentless Focus morph: converts ability into stam. Projectile deals disease damage. Duration increased to 30 sec. (possibly add minor endurance for the duration)
Merciless Resolve morph: user gets minor berserk buff while the ability is active. (Possibly increase heal percentage)

Stamblade damage output gets nerfed while defense gets buffed, magblades get survivability buff without the damage nerf, tankblades get a non-spammable burst heal.

I also like the idea of a base mitigation so that the initial cast always does at least something.

mcagatayg

Just remove mitigation. It sounds "nice" we got another buff. But its an offensive skill... by all means... And you give it a defensive buff that lasts 0.00000004 of a second, cuz you know everyplayer will fire it asap during pvp and in pve.

kaithuzar

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

So this ability gives nothing on initial cast, have virtually infinite duration of proc, damage-scaled heal and now will require much less skill to use properly.

So are you saying this is broken bad or broken good? It’s like you threw both arguments in there.

The situation is that “in combat or not in combat” is clearly completely broke & has been since launch.
So they basically have 2 options:
Option1: bow is ready to fire as long as I’m combat & if in combat is a while nb is better for it but may be seem as a little over powered, but imo just enough to compete with magsorc, stamden, etc..

Option2: continuously being pulled out of combat after short duration so the proc will not sit there & so you end up casting the skill 3-4 times because you have to re-proc your already proc’d bow...
This make nightblade completely unplayable.

As someone who plays a nightblade I chose option1, but what does everyone else think?

I would hope enough people don’t want to destroy an entire class by ruining the skill ZOS just buffed for us to rely on which is supposed to address most “other issues” the class is having.

MartiniDaniels

mcagatayg wrote: »

Just remove mitigation. It sounds "nice" we got another buff. But its an offensive skill... by all means... And you give it a defensive buff that lasts 0.00000004 of a second, cuz you know everyplayer will fire it asap during pvp and in pve.

Non-heavy NB operate in burst-combos from cloak. So they won't fire it asap, they will fire it in combo while killing you in 2-3 seconds. And while dodging, changing position they (we) will enjoy free 15% DR. Maybe that is not that much in CP, but in no-CP it is huge.

kaithuzar wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

So this ability gives nothing on initial cast, have virtually infinite duration of proc, damage-scaled heal and now will require much less skill to use properly.

So are you saying this is broken bad or broken good? It’s like you threw both arguments in there.

The situation is that “in combat or not in combat” is clearly completely broke & has been since launch.
So they basically have 2 options:
Option1: bow is ready to fire as long as I’m combat & if in combat is a while nb is better for it but may be seem as a little over powered, but imo just enough to compete with magsorc, stamden, etc..

Option2: continuously being pulled out of combat after short duration so the proc will not sit there & so you end up casting the skill 3-4 times because you have to re-proc your already proc’d bow...
This make nightblade completely unplayable.

As someone who plays a nightblade I chose option1, but what does everyone else think?

I would hope enough people don’t want to destroy an entire class by ruining the skill ZOS just buffed for us to rely on which is supposed to address most “other issues” the class is having.

We all know that it's easier to be in combat then out of it
I don't know, maybe there is some internal timer if you will be idle while your group is in combat, since I tested it running around attacking guards from time to time and buff was active infinitely. Though to use proc you need to re-activate it first.
So my thought this skill will be real OP in PVP, especially no-CP, while in group PVE on magblade it will have ton of useless effects and too short duration given that in no longer provides minor berserk.

Izaki

Just buff Light and Heavy attack damage upon activation, remove the stupid heal and make base ability and both morphs 30 sec long. I'd also say to keep the Minor Endurance and add Minor Intellect to each respective morph.

Rianai

The bow proc can be kept up indefinitely on live too, as long you are in combat. Thats not something new. Also the heal is pretty useless because of its unreliability, and i'd rather have it removed completely, than getting the "overloaded" skill nerfed elsewhere because of it. The dmg mitigation is strong though.

Iskiab

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

With Incap hysteria everybody forgot about Grim Focus, so I tested it for a while and ability looks like a cheese.
After expiring it is active on background for eternity while you are "in combat". This means that in case of long fight, you may build up it spamming LA bow attacks and then approach for a gank wherever in any time, without wasting resources and time and bother. Of course skilled NBs already approached with built up focus, but now it doesn't require anything, you just spam LA, stay in combat and have permanent +15% damage reduction and have spectral bow proc ready anytime after new activation.
Also it provides % of damage heal instead of % health heal. % of damage heal looks like bad idea because it will give glass cannon magblades notable burst heal, while PVE NB tanks receive absolutely nothing. In my opinion it's better to change it to something like 20% HP heal.

So this ability gives nothing on initial cast, have virtually infinite duration of proc, damage-scaled heal and now will require much less skill to use properly. All this looks like BS in PVE and OP in PVP? Why not provide 5% (+2% on each LA for maximum of 15) damage reduction while ability is active, HP% heal and get rid of proc "stored" while ability inactive? Also give 30 seconds duration to magicka version (for PVE viability mostly).

I think you’re missing the big picture of why the ability’s been setup like it is. Nightblades have 0 defensive passives.

I think the skill was introduced as a preemptive thing for future complaints of, ‘Why bring a NB if they take more damage then other classes and don’t do more damage’. It’s a necessary adjustment if the goal is to reduce Nightblade dps and keep the class relevant in pve and pvp and only touch abilities and not passives.

With it setup like it is it’s a compromise. Those NBs who want to be as tanky as other classes can, and those who want to maximize damage use the proc whenever it’s up. The self healing isn’t for tanks, it’s for magblade mdps who would have zero self healing except maybe Siphoning Strikes since they don’t use swallow soul.

MartiniDaniels

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

With Incap hysteria everybody forgot about Grim Focus, so I tested it for a while and ability looks like a cheese.
After expiring it is active on background for eternity while you are "in combat". This means that in case of long fight, you may build up it spamming LA bow attacks and then approach for a gank wherever in any time, without wasting resources and time and bother. Of course skilled NBs already approached with built up focus, but now it doesn't require anything, you just spam LA, stay in combat and have permanent +15% damage reduction and have spectral bow proc ready anytime after new activation.
Also it provides % of damage heal instead of % health heal. % of damage heal looks like bad idea because it will give glass cannon magblades notable burst heal, while PVE NB tanks receive absolutely nothing. In my opinion it's better to change it to something like 20% HP heal.

So this ability gives nothing on initial cast, have virtually infinite duration of proc, damage-scaled heal and now will require much less skill to use properly. All this looks like BS in PVE and OP in PVP? Why not provide 5% (+2% on each LA for maximum of 15) damage reduction while ability is active, HP% heal and get rid of proc "stored" while ability inactive? Also give 30 seconds duration to magicka version (for PVE viability mostly).

I think you’re missing the big picture of why the ability’s been setup like it is. Nightblades have 0 defensive passives.

I think the skill was introduced as a preemptive thing for future complaints of, ‘Why bring a NB if they take more damage then other classes and don’t do more damage’. It’s a necessary adjustment if the goal is to reduce Nightblade dps and keep the class relevant in pve and pvp and only touch abilities and not passives.

With it setup like it is it’s a compromise. Those NBs who want to be as tanky as other classes can, and those who want to maximize damage use the proc whenever it’s up. The self healing isn’t for tanks, it’s for magblade mdps who would have zero self healing except maybe Siphoning Strikes since they don’t use swallow soul.

Problem is that on live, stamblade is OP in PVE and good in PVP. Magblade good in PVE and overall bad in PVP. PVE NB tanks are a meme. If 5.0.3 goes live even with replacement of silence with stun, stamblade is not nerfed in any way in PVP and PVE though that was purpose of minor berserk removal, while magblade will be questionable choice, not unplayable but rather pointless if you can achieve same numbers with simpler rotation, why bother? NB tanks receive some nice changes, but they are screwed by lose of burst heal from cloak.
So if we speak about grim focus as re-balancing instrument, it should favor magblades and Nb tanks and not stamblade, but it is quite the opposite.

Iskiab

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

With Incap hysteria everybody forgot about Grim Focus, so I tested it for a while and ability looks like a cheese.
After expiring it is active on background for eternity while you are "in combat". This means that in case of long fight, you may build up it spamming LA bow attacks and then approach for a gank wherever in any time, without wasting resources and time and bother. Of course skilled NBs already approached with built up focus, but now it doesn't require anything, you just spam LA, stay in combat and have permanent +15% damage reduction and have spectral bow proc ready anytime after new activation.
Also it provides % of damage heal instead of % health heal. % of damage heal looks like bad idea because it will give glass cannon magblades notable burst heal, while PVE NB tanks receive absolutely nothing. In my opinion it's better to change it to something like 20% HP heal.

So this ability gives nothing on initial cast, have virtually infinite duration of proc, damage-scaled heal and now will require much less skill to use properly. All this looks like BS in PVE and OP in PVP? Why not provide 5% (+2% on each LA for maximum of 15) damage reduction while ability is active, HP% heal and get rid of proc "stored" while ability inactive? Also give 30 seconds duration to magicka version (for PVE viability mostly).

I think you’re missing the big picture of why the ability’s been setup like it is. Nightblades have 0 defensive passives.

I think the skill was introduced as a preemptive thing for future complaints of, ‘Why bring a NB if they take more damage then other classes and don’t do more damage’. It’s a necessary adjustment if the goal is to reduce Nightblade dps and keep the class relevant in pve and pvp and only touch abilities and not passives.

With it setup like it is it’s a compromise. Those NBs who want to be as tanky as other classes can, and those who want to maximize damage use the proc whenever it’s up. The self healing isn’t for tanks, it’s for magblade mdps who would have zero self healing except maybe Siphoning Strikes since they don’t use swallow soul.

Problem is that on live, stamblade is OP in PVE and good in PVP. Magblade good in PVE and overall bad in PVP. PVE NB tanks are a meme. If 5.0.3 goes live even with replacement of silence with stun, stamblade is not nerfed in any way in PVP and PVE though that was purpose of minor berserk removal, while magblade will be questionable choice, not unplayable but rather pointless if you can achieve same numbers with simpler rotation, why bother? NB tanks receive some nice changes, but they are screwed by lose of burst heal from cloak.
So if we speak about grim focus as re-balancing instrument, it should favor magblades and Nb tanks and not stamblade, but it is quite the opposite.

Hum, maybe. With so many changes it’s always hard to say how things will pan out. I mean, if everyone starts specing X way then certain builds become more attractive, if Y then those same specs will suck and you need to do something different.

I actually think the incap changes will benefit magblade moreso then stamblade. Issue with magblades has always been reflections pushing the class into melee, then lacking the survivability to stay in melee. A 3 second silence will stop warden absorptions, DK wings, sorc streak... everything that could negate all your damage with one button press.

I’m a magblade healer so burst isn’t my forte, but imagine lotus fan > incap > reach (with masters) > impale when execute > shade out sounds like it’d be good if it works.

With aoes buffed across the board magblade’s issue will moreso be surviving long enough in aoe spam and aoes knocking magblades out of stealth I imagine.

With abilities like caltrops and shards being buffed I’m fairly sure most magblades will benefit more from the mitigation then minor berserk even if they don’t know it yet. Depending how things pan out Shadowy Disguise might become just for gankers because of constant aoes going off.

likecats

they underloaded the ability, then overloaded it again. So now its a must have just like before.

A balanced solution would be to take away the initial cast which makes the skill so clunky, and remove the current mitigation.
Removing the initial cast would have increased DPS, sustain and most of all reliability/feel of the skill.

How the skill would work without an initial cast can have many implementations.

For one, they can use a similar solution they applied to the new magdk whip stacks. This would allow the counting of light attacks on both bars and no major changes needed for the ability.

Alternatively if the stacks are only counted on one bar, then lowering the number of light attacks would work.

Own

After dueling all day I disagree completely. It's very nice to be able to decide when to be tanky, and when to be offensive. It smoothly fit into my gameplay, and I was a WTF is nightblade now person. It's good.

darkblue5

I kinda want for the wacky heal to be changed to be less good in PvE or removed completely. Some of that healing could be either moved to not PvE used skills or change the way the healing works to not benefit endgame PvE dps.

I think being very careful with PvE endgame dps self healing in PvE is warranted given that it recently got nerfed. Honestly I'd like to see more dps self healing nerfed and dps numbers nerfed cause all that is a lot out of control.

kaithuzar

It almost doesn’t matter anymore because you’re going to have 3 stamblades combo-ing silence on you. GG ZOS, magblade & potentially all magicka classes just got destroyed for anything other than zerging.

Iskiab

kaithuzar wrote: »

It almost doesn’t matter anymore because you’re going to have 3 stamblades combo-ing silence on you. GG ZOS, magblade & potentially all magicka classes just got destroyed for anything other than zerging.

Same as live. A fossilize negate combo 2x is unstoppable. I’ve been in a ridiculously tanky build and downed by 2 Sorcs and a DK. I’d fear that combo far more then 3 Stamblades.

exeeter702

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

With Incap hysteria everybody forgot about Grim Focus, so I tested it for a while and ability looks like a cheese.
After expiring it is active on background for eternity while you are "in combat". This means that in case of long fight, you may build up it spamming LA bow attacks and then approach for a gank wherever in any time, without wasting resources and time and bother. Of course skilled NBs already approached with built up focus, but now it doesn't require anything, you just spam LA, stay in combat and have permanent +15% damage reduction and have spectral bow proc ready anytime after new activation.
Also it provides % of damage heal instead of % health heal. % of damage heal looks like bad idea because it will give glass cannon magblades notable burst heal, while PVE NB tanks receive absolutely nothing. In my opinion it's better to change it to something like 20% HP heal.

So this ability gives nothing on initial cast, have virtually infinite duration of proc, damage-scaled heal and now will require much less skill to use properly. All this looks like BS in PVE and OP in PVP? Why not provide 5% (+2% on each LA for maximum of 15) damage reduction while ability is active, HP% heal and get rid of proc "stored" while ability inactive? Also give 30 seconds duration to magicka version (for PVE viability mostly).

I think you’re missing the big picture of why the ability’s been setup like it is. Nightblades have 0 defensive passives.

I think the skill was introduced as a preemptive thing for future complaints of, ‘Why bring a NB if they take more damage then other classes and don’t do more damage’. It’s a necessary adjustment if the goal is to reduce Nightblade dps and keep the class relevant in pve and pvp and only touch abilities and not passives.

With it setup like it is it’s a compromise. Those NBs who want to be as tanky as other classes can, and those who want to maximize damage use the proc whenever it’s up. The self healing isn’t for tanks, it’s for magblade mdps who would have zero self healing except maybe Siphoning Strikes since they don’t use swallow soul.

Problem is that on live, stamblade is OP in PVE and good in PVP. Magblade good in PVE and overall bad in PVP. PVE NB tanks are a meme. If 5.0.3 goes live even with replacement of silence with stun, stamblade is not nerfed in any way in PVP and PVE though that was purpose of minor berserk removal, while magblade will be questionable choice, not unplayable but rather pointless if you can achieve same numbers with simpler rotation, why bother? NB tanks receive some nice changes, but they are screwed by lose of burst heal from cloak.
So if we speak about grim focus as re-balancing instrument, it should favor magblades and Nb tanks and not stamblade, but it is quite the opposite.

Hum, maybe. With so many changes it’s always hard to say how things will pan out. I mean, if everyone starts specing X way then certain builds become more attractive, if Y then those same specs will suck and you need to do something different.

I actually think the incap changes will benefit magblade moreso then stamblade. Issue with magblades has always been reflections pushing the class into melee, then lacking the survivability to stay in melee. A 3 second silence will stop warden absorptions, DK wings, sorc streak... everything that could negate all your damage with one button press.

I’m a magblade healer so burst isn’t my forte, but imagine lotus fan > incap > reach (with masters) > impale when execute > shade out sounds like it’d be good if it works.

With aoes buffed across the board magblade’s issue will moreso be surviving long enough in aoe spam and aoes knocking magblades out of stealth I imagine.

With abilities like caltrops and shards being buffed I’m fairly sure most magblades will benefit more from the mitigation then minor berserk even if they don’t know it yet. Depending how things pan out Shadowy Disguise might become just for gankers because of constant aoes going off.

on no cp environments perhaps. But in cp, commiting a 120 cost melee range ult that deals disease damage on top of having lost minor berserk is a tough pill to swallow where Mnbs are already struggling for burst damage. Had soul harvest been given the silence as well then melee magblades may have been slightly more in the money.

Stx

Holding onto a 15% DR is great for a NB tank and they need the help, but overall the skill is clunky and should just be replaced entirely

Insco851

Iskiab wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

It almost doesn’t matter anymore because you’re going to have 3 stamblades combo-ing silence on you. GG ZOS, magblade & potentially all magicka classes just got destroyed for anything other than zerging.

Same as live. A fossilize negate combo 2x is unstoppable. I’ve been in a ridiculously tanky build and downed by 2 Sorcs and a DK. I’d fear that combo far more then 3 Stamblades.

125ult + any spec combo is gonna be much cheaper than 3 players timing things perfectly with actual group play skill.

Iskiab

Insco851 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

It almost doesn’t matter anymore because you’re going to have 3 stamblades combo-ing silence on you. GG ZOS, magblade & potentially all magicka classes just got destroyed for anything other than zerging.

Same as live. A fossilize negate combo 2x is unstoppable. I’ve been in a ridiculously tanky build and downed by 2 Sorcs and a DK. I’d fear that combo far more then 3 Stamblades.

125ult + any spec combo is gonna be much cheaper than 3 players timing things perfectly with actual group play skill.

Think so? Negate has a big circle telegraphing the ultimate. It would require less coordination.

Either way my point isn’t that any specific combo is OP. If 3 players are against one and the players are decent, almost any combo of ult dumps will down you. Even two soul assaults at once is tough to deal with, the third could fear so you can’t block it and that’s only using two ultimates.

Insco851

Iskiab wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

kaithuzar wrote: »

It almost doesn’t matter anymore because you’re going to have 3 stamblades combo-ing silence on you. GG ZOS, magblade & potentially all magicka classes just got destroyed for anything other than zerging.

Same as live. A fossilize negate combo 2x is unstoppable. I’ve been in a ridiculously tanky build and downed by 2 Sorcs and a DK. I’d fear that combo far more then 3 Stamblades.

125ult + any spec combo is gonna be much cheaper than 3 players timing things perfectly with actual group play skill.

Think so? Negate has a big circle telegraphing the ultimate. It would require less coordination.

Either way my point isn’t that any specific combo is OP. If 3 players are against one and the players are decent, almost any combo of ult dumps will down you. Even two soul assaults at once is tough to deal with, the third could fear so you can’t block it and that’s only using two ultimates.

I’m all for small scale with good ult dump timings, strategy, synergy... group comp...that sort of thing is THE funnest part of this game bar none. 3 seconds of silence makes one of those sorcs a NB instead and that ult comes much quicker and cheaper than negate if we are talking a single player.

It’s a broken idea imo. That can’t go live considering it’s way too lopsidedly strong.