RAT Changes

Vapirko

What is about two seconds of snare immunity that’s so appealing to you ZOS? How many threads do we have to make to tell you that two seconds is NOT enough. The reason shuffle is a worthless skill is because of its immuntiy duration. And don’t think that nerfing RAT was a clever way of making medium armor and shuffle more appealing. Medium still lacks for every class except NB due to the passive dedicated solely to stealth and also that the other armor types can benefit from its 5 trait but medium can not benefit from the 5th trait of light or heavy.

Back to the RAT changes, you had a really awesome skill on hand here. Strong but not OP, a useful skill to solo and small scale players, and now it’s still good for sure but you had to go and change it to that cursed two second duration. You’ve spent four weeks working almost exclusively on Stamina Nightblades, completely ignored Stamina Sorcerer altogether, all but ignored Stamina Templar, gave very little help to Magicka Nightblades, effectively pushed all Magicka sorcs into playing Matriarch builds, and then you take the one good thing from this patch because we finally have a skill that is equipped to deal with snares in this game and nerf it before we even get a chance to see how it performs. Maybe I’m overly disappointed due to the blatant lack of class changes in what was supposed to be the big class change patch, but that small nerf in today’s patch notes just really feels like a big WTF.

grannas211

Just take the minor force off of it (keep it on the other morph for pve, who cares) and revert the snare immunity time. Tweak the cost if you feel its still OP. Taking it to 2 and once again making mist form the only option is such a big FU after you're supposed "class skills audit"

Vapirko

grannas211 wrote: »

Just take the minor force off of it (keep it on the other morph for pve, who cares) and revert the snare immunity time. Tweak the cost if you feel its still OP. Taking it to 2 and once again making mist form the only option is such a big FU after you're supposed "class skills audit"

Was it even OP though? We had no real chance to test it. Strong sure. But it’s not like it provides a bunch of free damage. Sloads wasn’t OP. This is a utility skill that doesn’t do anything for you unless you’ve you’re thinking ahead about what you’re going to do next. Imo we need more skills like this.

grannas211

Vapirko wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Just take the minor force off of it (keep it on the other morph for pve, who cares) and revert the snare immunity time. Tweak the cost if you feel its still OP. Taking it to 2 and once again making mist form the only option is such a big FU after you're supposed "class skills audit"

Was it even OP though? We had no real chance to test it. Strong sure. But it’s not like it provides a bunch of free damage. Sloads wasn’t OP. This is a utility skill that doesn’t do anything for you unless you’ve you’re thinking ahead about what you’re going to do next. Imo we need more skills like this.

Im not saying it was OP, but they said they felt it was overloaded or whatever because of the minor force. Im saying just remove that entirely. I only threw that cost increase part in there if they did that and after a week of testing they felt it still was. I don't think they needed to do any of that. But alas, they're obsessed with us using mist form.

Vapirko

grannas211 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Just take the minor force off of it (keep it on the other morph for pve, who cares) and revert the snare immunity time. Tweak the cost if you feel its still OP. Taking it to 2 and once again making mist form the only option is such a big FU after you're supposed "class skills audit"

Was it even OP though? We had no real chance to test it. Strong sure. But it’s not like it provides a bunch of free damage. Sloads wasn’t OP. This is a utility skill that doesn’t do anything for you unless you’ve you’re thinking ahead about what you’re going to do next. Imo we need more skills like this.

Im not saying it was OP, but they said they felt it was overloaded or whatever because of the minor force. Im saying just remove that entirely. I only threw that cost increase part in there if they did that and after a week of testing they felt it still was. I don't think they needed to do any of that. But alas, they're obsessed with us using mist form.

Yeah idk, its crazy they let something like Sloads go live, but this we can't have a chance to test.

Vig0rz

I'd like to see RAT buffed back up to 4 seconds and see other snare immunities get a slight buff. Shuffle would be incredibly underwhelming if RAT lasted 4 seconds. Maybe making it .75 seconds per a piece would make it more appealing? 5 pieces would become 3.75 and it would make running 6 or even 7 piece medium more viable as it would give up to an extra 1.5 seconds. Or they could just give more skills snare immunity.

Vapirko

Vig0rz wrote: »

I'd like to see RAT buffed back up to 4 seconds and see other snare immunities get a slight buff. Shuffle would be incredibly underwhelming if RAT lasted 4 seconds. Maybe making it .75 seconds per a piece would make it more appealing? 5 pieces would become 3.75 and it would make running 6 or even 7 piece medium more viable as it would give up to an extra 1.5 seconds. Or they could just give more skills snare immunity.

Shuffle was underwhelming even before there was any mention of RAT offering snare immunity. Keep RAT at 4 seconds, make shuffle 4 seconds, done. They keep talking about normalization but its clearly selective in this case. But no 6 or 7 medium isn't viable on any class except maybe gankblades.

satanio

Vapirko wrote: »

Vig0rz wrote: »

I'd like to see RAT buffed back up to 4 seconds and see other snare immunities get a slight buff. Shuffle would be incredibly underwhelming if RAT lasted 4 seconds. Maybe making it .75 seconds per a piece would make it more appealing? 5 pieces would become 3.75 and it would make running 6 or even 7 piece medium more viable as it would give up to an extra 1.5 seconds. Or they could just give more skills snare immunity.

Shuffle was underwhelming even before there was any mention of RAT offering snare immunity. Keep RAT at 4 seconds, make shuffle 4 seconds, done. They keep talking about normalization but its clearly selective in this case. But no 6 or 7 medium isn't viable on any class except maybe gankblades.

Yes selective it is.

Davadin

i'm already using it for pvp even without the immune coz its a good source of crit damage AND sprint cost reduction.

extra 2 sec of snare-immune is already a bonus.


So having it 2 sec instead of 4 sec, really, how much impact will it be?

Iskiab

Davadin wrote: »

i'm already using it for pvp even without the immune coz its a good source of crit damage AND sprint cost reduction.

extra 2 sec of snare-immune is already a bonus.


So having it 2 sec instead of 4 sec, really, how much impact will it be?

Very little, it’ll still be a way to remove immobilizations.

Rikumaru

Vapirko wrote: »

Vig0rz wrote: »

I'd like to see RAT buffed back up to 4 seconds and see other snare immunities get a slight buff. Shuffle would be incredibly underwhelming if RAT lasted 4 seconds. Maybe making it .75 seconds per a piece would make it more appealing? 5 pieces would become 3.75 and it would make running 6 or even 7 piece medium more viable as it would give up to an extra 1.5 seconds. Or they could just give more skills snare immunity.

Shuffle was underwhelming even before there was any mention of RAT offering snare immunity. Keep RAT at 4 seconds, make shuffle 4 seconds, done. They keep talking about normalization but its clearly selective in this case. But no 6 or 7 medium isn't viable on any class except maybe gankblades.

In no-cp 7 medium is good if you run a dodge roll build (of which you can get the cost of the roll dodge to roughly 800). That build is kinda dead though next patch.

As for RAT, I was super hyped for my magicka classes to finally be close to the mobility of my stamina classes next patch. These changes just make RAT completely meh and really doesn't change much for magicka mobility for next patch. Very disappointed.

Chilly-McFreeze

What really irks me is that after all the pleas for bringing shuffle up to speed they left it untouched and gave the better version to NBs.

brandonv516

Since they removed the cost decrease with ranking up the skill, RAT makes no sense:

Rank 1: 1s of snare immunity
Rank 2: 2s of snare immunity
Rank 3: You get nothing
Rank 4: You get nothing

Please tell me I'm wrong and I'll quit complaining.

Edit: Or does it go by starting with .5s at Rank 1? If so...

Najarati

Rikumaru wrote: »

....As for RAT, I was super hyped for my magicka classes to finally be close to the mobility of my stamina classes next patch. These changes just make RAT completely meh and really doesn't change much for magicka mobility for next patch. Very disappointed.

Same. I was looking forward to finally dropping vampirism on my templar, which I only underwent because the mobility afforded by Mist Form is all but required in PvP. With the reduction of the new RAT down to 2 seconds of snare/immobilization immunity, I'll likely stick with Mist Form.

My thought is, as others have suggested, remove Minor Force from RAT and return its immunity to 4 seconds. Channeled Acceleration can remain unchanged for those seeking Minor Force.

Iskiab

How do snares interact with the soft cc immunity which is part of 5.0. Will there be 8 seconds or so of snare immunity after being snared? I don’t understand how it works.

casparian

Iskiab wrote: »

How do snares interact with the soft cc immunity which is part of 5.0. Will there be 8 seconds or so of snare immunity after being snared? I don’t understand how it works.

That’s only for roots. Not snares.

Chilly-McFreeze

Iskiab wrote: »

How do snares interact with the soft cc immunity which is part of 5.0. Will there be 8 seconds or so of snare immunity after being snared? I don’t understand how it works.

All Immobilizes from player abilities and item sets will now apply Immobilization Immunity once applied, to prevent multiple Immobilizes from applying on the same target. Once an Immobilize from these abilities ends, you gain immunity to Immobilizes for 3 seconds after, similar to the Dodge Roll mechanic.

E: darn, beat me to it

kerthas

+ finally a good snare removal for magicka player, finally we are able to get rid of mistform. But no, zenimax thought that was a clever move. Like it had been said, we don't give a f**** about minor force, the rest of it is interesting. But with 2 sec, just no1 are going to use it.

ecru

They want you to be CC'd a lot. That's all I can gather from these changes. Someone at ZOS really, really loves their CC and doesn't want you to be able to move at your normal run speed very often.

Insco851

Snare/cc removal with major expedition on the same cast... easily makes that one of the best tools for counter being cc’d to death.

BaylorCorvette

Vapirko wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Just take the minor force off of it (keep it on the other morph for pve, who cares) and revert the snare immunity time. Tweak the cost if you feel its still OP. Taking it to 2 and once again making mist form the only option is such a big FU after you're supposed "class skills audit"

Was it even OP though? We had no real chance to test it. Strong sure. But it’s not like it provides a bunch of free damage. Sloads wasn’t OP. This is a utility skill that doesn’t do anything for you unless you’ve you’re thinking ahead about what you’re going to do next. Imo we need more skills like this.

With the way it was up until this week I feel strongly it was too overloaded. I have been testing on PTS every week for a couple hours and I was going to implement RAT in just about every build I have, including my StamSorc (replacing Streak). What makes it so strong is Major Expedition + Snare/Immobilization Immunity.

Crixus8000

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

With the way it was up until this week I feel strongly it was too overloaded. I have been testing on PTS every week for a couple hours and I was going to implement RAT in just about every build I have, including my StamSorc (replacing Streak). What makes it so strong is Major Expedition + Snare/Immobilization Immunity.

Ye but streak sucks imo, way too many issues. This was looking like a good option to actually give stamsorc some speed back, as we are supposed to be the fast class, yet aren't really any faster than anyone else.

HankTwo

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Just take the minor force off of it (keep it on the other morph for pve, who cares) and revert the snare immunity time. Tweak the cost if you feel its still OP. Taking it to 2 and once again making mist form the only option is such a big FU after you're supposed "class skills audit"

Was it even OP though? We had no real chance to test it. Strong sure. But it’s not like it provides a bunch of free damage. Sloads wasn’t OP. This is a utility skill that doesn’t do anything for you unless you’ve you’re thinking ahead about what you’re going to do next. Imo we need more skills like this.

With the way it was up until this week I feel strongly it was too overloaded. I have been testing on PTS every week for a couple hours and I was going to implement RAT in just about every build I have, including my StamSorc (replacing Streak). What makes it so strong is Major Expedition + Snare/Immobilization Immunity.

This, imo, it was simply a bad idea to give a skill that already grants major expedition snare + immobilization immunity on top. I would like a class restricted approach more, like they did with magblade, since classes like magsorcs already have very strong mobility. Putting immunity on RAT, a skill that is neither class nor weapon restricted, just opened a big can of worms, which they can't close anymore without creating even more uproar. Therefore, 2 seconds immunity seems like a fair compromise. 4 seconds would just overbuff this skill to a point where it would grant more mobility than any other single mobility buff skill in the game.

To the people who claim that RAT with 2s immunity will be useless: even the current version of the skill is considered decent by many people and is being used. 2s immunity + 4 seconds of major expedition is arguably better on a magbuild than 3 seconds of major expedition and 50% sprint cost reduction. Last but not least, there are DK players that manage snares and roots just with wings, and that skill also gives 'only' 2 seconds of immunity, without the major expedition of RAT.

Strider__Roshin

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

What really irks me is that after all the pleas for bringing shuffle up to speed they left it untouched and gave the better version to NBs.

RAT is better, but yeah you're not wrong lol

Vapirko

HankTwo wrote: »

BaylorCorvette wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

grannas211 wrote: »

Just take the minor force off of it (keep it on the other morph for pve, who cares) and revert the snare immunity time. Tweak the cost if you feel its still OP. Taking it to 2 and once again making mist form the only option is such a big FU after you're supposed "class skills audit"

Was it even OP though? We had no real chance to test it. Strong sure. But it’s not like it provides a bunch of free damage. Sloads wasn’t OP. This is a utility skill that doesn’t do anything for you unless you’ve you’re thinking ahead about what you’re going to do next. Imo we need more skills like this.

With the way it was up until this week I feel strongly it was too overloaded. I have been testing on PTS every week for a couple hours and I was going to implement RAT in just about every build I have, including my StamSorc (replacing Streak). What makes it so strong is Major Expedition + Snare/Immobilization Immunity.

This, imo, it was simply a bad idea to give a skill that already grants major expedition snare + immobilization immunity on top. I would like a class restricted approach more, like they did with magblade, since classes like magsorcs already have very strong mobility. Putting immunity on RAT, a skill that is neither class nor weapon restricted, just opened a big can of worms, which they can't close anymore without creating even more uproar. Therefore, 2 seconds immunity seems like a fair compromise. 4 seconds would just overbuff this skill to a point where it would grant more mobility than any other single mobility buff skill in the game.

To the people who claim that RAT with 2s immunity will be useless: even the current version of the skill is considered decent by many people and is being used. 2s immunity + 4 seconds of major expedition is arguably better on a magbuild than 3 seconds of major expedition and 50% sprint cost reduction. Last but not least, there are DK players that manage snares and roots just with wings, and that skill also gives 'only' 2 seconds of immunity, without the major expedition of RAT.

I’m not saying it’s useless, i just had a small hope we’d get some real mobility back. It’ll still be a good skill, although by making it more expensive they’re still pushing out stam builds out which I get, but, heavy armor is still going to dominate and medium is now worse than ever by comparison. I wanted RAT to stay 4 seconds in hopes that shuffle would then be buffed to match. And some people say well they’re just doing class changes this patch so why would they touch shuffle? Well RAT is a guild skill line and they said they were doing those later. Really they have just blatantly said *** you to medium armor users despite months and months of feedback on the need for shuffle to be looked at and medium armor to be buffed. Even if with the immuntiy nerf and the cost increase, even if they replaced minor force with major sorcery buff, I’d still use it in heavy over shuffle in medium. That’s how garbage medium armor is rn.

juhislihis19

ZOS:

Here, we buffed this RAT skill, gave it a 4s snare immunity.

Everyone at forums:

This seems like a great skill. Thank you very much! You should also take a look at Shuffle as it's underperforming, same with Reflective Scales as it's only 2s at the moment..

ZOS:

Nah, we just going to nerf RAT.

HowlKimchi

Davadin wrote: »

i'm already using it for pvp even without the immune coz its a good source of crit damage AND sprint cost reduction.

extra 2 sec of snare-immune is already a bonus.


So having it 2 sec instead of 4 sec, really, how much impact will it be?

It's losing sprint cost reduction, right?

Vapirko

HaruKamui wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

i'm already using it for pvp even without the immune coz its a good source of crit damage AND sprint cost reduction.

extra 2 sec of snare-immune is already a bonus.


So having it 2 sec instead of 4 sec, really, how much impact will it be?

It's losing sprint cost reduction, right?

Yes.

Brrrofski

Everyone was making the point that RAT was longer than shuffle and it didn't make sense.

What everyone meant was - BUFF SHUFFLE. Give it 4 seconds too. Or make it work like annulment - 0.8 per peice of medium so 5-1-1 gets 4 seconds and more for running full medium.

Instead, ZOS nerf RAT to only have 2 seconds.

Again showing how out of touch with PvP they are.

Mayrael

ZOS stays in the past mentality where magicka was on top, they still think that magicka is dominating PvP. Why? Hard to tell but IMHO it's because they simply don't play PvP at all. They don't have any idea what impact have their changes on us, what really matters in PvP. Magicka has just RAT, it needs to be bring back to 4s (same as shuffle and scales) - snares and roots are everywhere in PvP thus we all need some viable options to counter them, it can't be just stamina feature.