NPC Immobilization Immunity :(

Quasaur

Why do the NPCs get immobilization immunity? I can understand that crowd control abilities needed a change in PvP, but why is this affecting PvE? Who was begging for more of a challenge and why do I need more of this challenge?

Sure, health-tanks, stam-based tanks, and all those players far better than I am probably didn't notice, but I use a lot of magic crowd-control abilities when I tank or solo and I certainly noticed.

Leave the immobilization/CC immunity to PvP, please.

Colecovision

Go to deseaun and solo the abomination world boss. Use rearming trap. She isn't immune. Then just light attack her if you want. Or whatever. It doesn't matter since there is nothing she can do. The fight is pointless, lacks gamesmanship and is the easiest way for you to see why npcs need immunity. I had the very same question you did until I had that fight.

Chelo

Quasaur wrote: »

Why do the NPCs get immobilization immunity? I can understand that crowd control abilities needed a change in PvP, but why is this affecting PvE? Who was begging for more of a challenge and why do I need more of this challenge?

Sure, health-tanks, stam-based tanks, and all those players far better than I am probably didn't notice, but I use a lot of magic crowd-control abilities when I tank or solo and I certainly noticed.

Leave the immobilization/CC immunity to PvP, please.

Because it would be silly if you can just perma cc every mob in the game...

Vermethys

Aye, when I tank (which is most of the time), I apply and reapply Choking Talons, Encase, Gripping Shards approximately every 4 seconds to keep trash packs locked in. I'm curious to see how that changes with Elsweyr.

John_Falstaff

Yup, it hits PvE tanks heavy (as though we needed even more annoyance to PvE tanks after 1H nerfs, to add insult to injury). Now I won't be able to pack up the trash as efficiently as before. I'm so looking forward to pugs complaining as to why my freshly chained in stuff scatters right after and I can't root it anymore.

MartiniDaniels

vermillion2077 wrote: »

Aye, when I tank (which is most of the time), I apply and reapply Choking Talons, Encase, Gripping Shards approximately every 4 seconds to keep trash packs locked in. I'm curious to see how that changes with Elsweyr.

This won't work anymore. Immobilization can not be renewed on PTS, so mobs will start to crawl after 4 seconds. They still can be snared though, so you need to immobilize them with claws and when claws end snare them with engulfing flames/ice blockade. Blockade was nerfed though so snares will be pretty weak.
Idk who ever thought that it is good idea to apply this new mechanic on mobs.
There are good things too though. You won't be perma snared by different mechanics anymore. Also roll-dodge provides bigger window of immobilization/snare immunity, so overall it will be much easier to counteract snare mechanics.

John_Falstaff

Yes, I'm also not sure where they dug up the new combat team. The changes to playstyles in the new patch are plain atrocious.

• Dragonknights end up slotting useless magicka spammable just for the passive, and use an AoE debuff & dot as spammable instead.
• Templars plummet to the bottom of the food chain and get more damage by dropping PotL, their class-defining ability.
• Nightblade tanks get driven further into the ground (good bye, burst heal) and at the same become tankier with more mitigation, while losing their class identity (more damage, more risk, and defense through active play instead of passive mitigation).
• Tanks ending up running a bow (sic!) on back bar as result of all the nerfs - really, how disgusting can it get and how detrimental for the game's feel when tanks run a bow.

And we complained about Mr. Wrobel's lack of vision. It's like ZOS just told us: you thought there can't be any less vision? Hold my beer!

Dracane

It's a reasonable change. Roots completely shut down all add groups. It's almost like an infinite aoe stun against most NPCs.
I always wondered, if they would ever change that.

I sometimes use encase on my Sorcerer tank. It's a bit like an AoE taunt for me, because the affected monsters are pretty much disabled. I'm a bit worried though since they also reduced the duration of Encase with this patch to 4 seconds. I think I will just keep on using streak for a 3 seconds stun now.

John_Falstaff

Dracane wrote: »

It's a reasonable change. Roots completely shut down all add groups. It's almost like an infinite aoe stun against most NPCs.
I always wondered, if they would ever change that.

I sometimes use encase on my Sorcerer tank. It's a bit like an AoE taunt for me, because the affected monsters are pretty much disabled. I'm a bit worried though since they also reduced the duration of Encase with this patch to 4 seconds. I think I will just keep on using streak for a 3 seconds stun now.

It's not an infinite AoE stun, because bigger mobs are immune to begin with (and that always was the way to avoid just having mobs pinned down - so only the smallest trash can be pinned), plus it's not a stun, just immobilize - ranged mobs keep attacking. It's unreasonable to keep nerfing tanks patch after patch, even despite fewer and fewer people wanting to play tanks to begin with.

Dracane

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

It's a reasonable change. Roots completely shut down all add groups. It's almost like an infinite aoe stun against most NPCs.
I always wondered, if they would ever change that.

I sometimes use encase on my Sorcerer tank. It's a bit like an AoE taunt for me, because the affected monsters are pretty much disabled. I'm a bit worried though since they also reduced the duration of Encase with this patch to 4 seconds. I think I will just keep on using streak for a 3 seconds stun now.

It's not an infinite AoE stun, because bigger mobs are immune to begin with (and that always was the way to avoid just having mobs pinned down - so only the smallest trash can be pinned), plus it's not a stun, just immobilize - ranged mobs keep attacking. It's unreasonable to keep nerfing tanks patch after patch, even despite fewer and fewer people wanting be tanks to begin with.

Which is why I said, against "most" mobs. Please read carefully.
And a good tank will always taunt elite mobs first. Not to mention that the majority of dungeons do not even have elite mobs at all during trash encounters.

Tanking in ESO is alot of fun and it has always been my favorite role. People not wanting to tank is normal in all games. People are by nature, not as social as we believe. We want the feeling to have impact and many people may feel like they can only achieve this when they are a DD and see numbers flying on screen. Or they feel like tanking is too hard, while the truth is, that being a good and useful DD is hard.

I feel very impactful as a tank, which was proven to me countless of times. So they can do what they want, I will always enjoy it from the bottom of my soul.

John_Falstaff

@Dracane , good for you. I hope you enjoying tanking and supporting this change will be a great relief to those DDs waiting in queue. Fact is, the recent patches chip away the impact the tank can offer; rooting things (or debuffing them - that's speaking of 1H nerf) is one of the way to contribute as support role. You're happy with your role being diluted? Happy with not being able to protect your group from mobs running about, or happy with having to run bow to contribute the most you can as a tank? Again, good for you, but speak only for yourself, please. I, as a tank, do not look forward to the new update.

Dracane

@John_Falstaff I blame it on a limited horizone. I never followed the supposed tank meta and I am very happy with what I came up by myself. Self made is always best. Following a meta that is bound to get altered eventually, just results in frustration.

I did not want to quote you on it earlier. But I wonder why you say that tanks must use bows now. The patchnotes do not give me the urge or need to use a bow over something else now.

Crafts_Many_Boxes

I've always been of the opinion that we need CC to affect more NPCs, not less.

Look at frost damage in general - the whole logic is that it does less damage because of the CC properties. Then look at PVE - bosses are immune to CC. Where's the logic in that?

ALL NPCs should be vulnerable to CC, not none. Either that or frost damage needs a buff in boss fights somehow.

Maybe reduce the effectiveness based on the strength of the mob that the CC is targeting? That way you can't stunlock bosses but you still can for trash mobs? Or just make bosses immune to stuns and roots but not slows?

Point being, there are other, better ways to do it aside from how ZOS is going about this.

John_Falstaff

Dracane wrote: »

@John_Falstaff I blame it on a limited horizone. I never followed the supposed tank meta and I am very happy with what I came up by myself. Self made is always best. Following a meta that is bound to get altered eventually, just results in frustration.

I did not want to quote you on it earlier. But I wonder why you say that tanks must use bows now. The patchnotes do not give me the urge or need to use a bow over something else now.

Meta is not a whim; meta is simply the empirical knowledge on how you, a support role at core, can do most for your group. You may be happy as a self made off meta tank, but that just means that you're not trying your hardest to actually be what ESO tank is - a support role. Again, it's entirely your choice, not judging here, but I can't imagine being a tank without trying to push myself from being a meat shield and towards group support.

As for bows, then Liofa gave a good explanation on it in another thread. Bow gives more reliable uptime on Crusher (it procs on just one mob, and with Hail, it procs on the mob that stands in the center of the circle - something that lets you avoid accidental procs on a mob that doesn't need debuffing), it gives you a longer snare (something that is important now that snares are getting nerfed), it gives mobility as a side effect (roll to gain Expedition), and it lets tank contribute more damage (with one-bar tanking sets like Alkosh, you can even run vMA bow back bar, contributing more for the group). 1H was a precise way to put infused Crusher on target, now it can only be placed from two-handed weapon, and bow lets you support your group the most.

Again, if you don't feel the urge, then it's your personal decision. I, personally, feel that if a tank does not feel the urge (or rather pressure), then he doesn't want to become a better tank (as tanks are understood in ESO), but hey, it's just me.

Dracane

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

@John_Falstaff I blame it on a limited horizone. I never followed the supposed tank meta and I am very happy with what I came up by myself. Self made is always best. Following a meta that is bound to get altered eventually, just results in frustration.

I did not want to quote you on it earlier. But I wonder why you say that tanks must use bows now. The patchnotes do not give me the urge or need to use a bow over something else now.

Meta is not a whim; meta is simply the empirical knowledge on how you, a support role at core, can do most for your group. You may be happy as a self made off meta tank, but that just means that you're not trying your hardest to actually be what ESO tank is - a support role. Again, it's entirely your choice, not judging here, but I can't imagine being a tank without trying to push myself from being a meat shield and towards group support.

As for bows, then Liofa gave a good explanation on it in another thread. Bow gives more reliable uptime on Crusher (it procs on just one mob, and with Hail, it procs on the mob that stands in the center of the circle - something that lets you avoid accidental procs on a mob that doesn't need debuffing), it gives you a longer snare (something that is important now that snares are getting nerfed), it gives mobility as a side effect (roll to gain Expedition), and it lets tank contribute more damage (with one-bar tanking sets like Alkosh, you can even run vMA bow back bar, contributing more for the group). 1H was a precise way to put infused Crusher on target, now it can only be placed from two-handed weapon, and bow lets you support your group the most.

Again, if you don't feel the urge, then it's your personal decision. I, personally, feel that if a tank does not feel the urge (or rather pressure), then he doesn't want to become a better tank (as tanks are understood in ESO), but hey, it's just me.

The real thing is, how you decide to support. Or rather what your support consists of. Meta tanks have their main preference and I have mine. Meta tanks just follow the most obvious path and obvious doesn't mean most optimal.

What you said about bows there "you can even run vMA bow back bar, contributing more for the group" shows me that you understand, that when a tank can deal damage, it does help the group quite a bit. Yet tanks are too afraid to really walk that path. They do not choose to support in such a way. They only see themselves as permablock and crusher bots. So much fun.

The thing about Volley and Crusher is interesting though. However, I can not really follow that logic. You use a ground aoe to proc crusher, yet you really only want to apply it to a certain opponent. You could just light attack that certain target, couldn't you ? I don't think I would commit on a bow just to have access to an AoE that only proc this enchant on one and the same target. I will just light attack it then.

John_Falstaff

Dracane wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

@John_Falstaff I blame it on a limited horizone. I never followed the supposed tank meta and I am very happy with what I came up by myself. Self made is always best. Following a meta that is bound to get altered eventually, just results in frustration.

I did not want to quote you on it earlier. But I wonder why you say that tanks must use bows now. The patchnotes do not give me the urge or need to use a bow over something else now.

Meta is not a whim; meta is simply the empirical knowledge on how you, a support role at core, can do most for your group. You may be happy as a self made off meta tank, but that just means that you're not trying your hardest to actually be what ESO tank is - a support role. Again, it's entirely your choice, not judging here, but I can't imagine being a tank without trying to push myself from being a meat shield and towards group support.

As for bows, then Liofa gave a good explanation on it in another thread. Bow gives more reliable uptime on Crusher (it procs on just one mob, and with Hail, it procs on the mob that stands in the center of the circle - something that lets you avoid accidental procs on a mob that doesn't need debuffing), it gives you a longer snare (something that is important now that snares are getting nerfed), it gives mobility as a side effect (roll to gain Expedition), and it lets tank contribute more damage (with one-bar tanking sets like Alkosh, you can even run vMA bow back bar, contributing more for the group). 1H was a precise way to put infused Crusher on target, now it can only be placed from two-handed weapon, and bow lets you support your group the most.

Again, if you don't feel the urge, then it's your personal decision. I, personally, feel that if a tank does not feel the urge (or rather pressure), then he doesn't want to become a better tank (as tanks are understood in ESO), but hey, it's just me.

The real thing is, how you decide to support. Or rather what your support consists of. Meta tanks have their main preference and I have mine. Meta tanks just follow the most obvious path and obvious doesn't mean most optimal.

What you said about bows there "you can even run vMA bow back bar, contributing more for the group" shows me that you understand, that when a tank can deal damage, it does help the group quite a bit. Yet tanks are too afraid to really walk that path. They do not choose to support in such a way. They only see themselves as permablock and crusher bots. So much fun.

The thing about Volley and Crusher is interesting though. However, I can not really follow that logic. You use a ground aoe to proc crusher, yet you really only want to apply it to a certain opponent. You could just light attack that certain target, couldn't you ? I don't think I would commit on a bow just to have access to an AoE that only proc this enchant on one and the same target. I will just light attack it then.

Well, then feel free to share your most optimal path. I'm not ruling out that you have something that helps groups better than what shows up on meta. Support isn't as immediately apparent as dps is, but it still can be measured.

Yes, a tank can deal damage, but there are two sides to this coin. I've seen 'dd tanks' that think they can contribute more by being hybrids and forfeiting group buffs/debuffs, but again, you can measure that and see whether what you can do directly exceeds what you can get by amplifying damage of your damage dealers. Hail on back bar is good simply because it does not force you to drop your support sets, so you can do a little extra without sacrificing things you do for DDs. 'Permablock and Crusher bots' isn't quantitative - it's a simple question of whether group as a whole will do more damage with you doing damage, or with you doing Crusher / Alkosh and letting DDs dish out more. If a crusher bot edges ahead of dd/tank, makes group more efficient with all other things equal? He's a better tank, no way around it. But if you have a formula that outperforms that - it's awesome. I'd personally would be glad to give it a shot.

As for light attacking - then it's just suboptimal as tank rotation goes. Infused Crusher has cooldown of five seconds (slightly below that, really), meaning that, to keep optimal uptime on it, you will have to light attack every five seconds sharp, and more often than not, it be bar swap -> LA -> bar swap again, which isn't only robbing you of precious GCDs where you could do other things, but also runs the higher risk of catching a heavy attack - swapping bars (LA too, speaking of that) makes you briefly drop block (especially nasty for tanks with high ping). If you'll simply land Blockade or Hail (which can be block-cast), you will get two fire-and-forget procs that keep you covered for the next ten seconds, plus a side effect (frost blockade - chilled effect and snare, lightning - off balance, hail - raw damage). There's just no reason not to, it's plain more efficient.

techprince

I have already dropped Talons for Frost Blockade.