Snipe rework? Possible suggestions

Jowrik

First and foremost: I'm NOT much of a PVP-player, and definetly NOT a Snipe-user in PVP. I play mainly PVE Bow-builds, with about 50k current patch in Trials.
You never know these days....

I'm trying to have an honest, proper discussion about this skill in PVP and PVE. So far, I am only aware (through this forum honestly) of snipe spammers in PVP (which I find it to be a mis-use of the skill in itself). I know @SodanTok does a very good PVE analysis for Bow builds (check out his guides on here).

Snipe didn't feel changed at all (same delay, same break-up when weaving). Only the damage is now way less. It feels kind of weak right now and doesn't feel worth using, especially seeing the channel time. The 1s channel time still feels VERY off to use in a rotation and it honestly feels like i'm semi-breaking the game when I weave accordingly.

My personal suggestions:
- OR increase snipe's damage by 5% again (still a 20% nerf). Although i'd prefer suggestions below;
- OR decrease it's channel time more (0.6sec, like Rapid Strikes?) and change the damage accordingly. Regardless, reducing it's channel time by more will make the skill easier to fit into a proper rotation (see Rapid Strikes);
- OR, and this is one i firmly believe in, make it so Snipe gets slotted for Ultimate and take Rapid Fire as the spammable ability. I know this has been suggested atleast a couple of times on here. The Snipe-ultimate should see a cost increase to 200-250. (maybe see it's damage reduced big time and have a cost of 75).

You can make this work by reducing the amount of hits Rapid Fire does to 5 and reducing the damage accordingly, on par with other spammable abilities (for instance, every hit amounts to a same amount of damage Rapid Strikes would give, keeping in mind the Hawk Eye passive + Long Shots passive). Actually pretty like the way Rapid Strikes works for Dual Wield, but at range for Bow. Morph-wise you could apply the same principle as Rapid Strikes applies (Extra healing or extra damage on final hit) or add some stacking penetration, short minor force duration, ... Make it so it can be dodgerolled (PVP counter) or blocked. Forget Minor Fracture/Minor Defile (or leave them on ult).

Thanks,
A concerned Bow PVE player

Insco851

Rapid strike skill and snipe ulti ... perfect! Even in pvp

Olupajmibanan

Play a Bow/Bow Necro. It has much higher dps than other bow/bow builds, but I don't mind the DPS. What is the main advantage of necro over other classes for bow/bow is the CONVENIENCE.

As necro, you don't use Snipe as spammable so Long Shots is of limited benefit. That means you can stand in front of your healer (just like normal DD) and loose very little of your DPS. You don't even have to wear Slimecraw. I played a lot of bow/bow stamsorc lately (with Slimecraw and Daedric Prey of course for the spiders synergy). It was very inconvenient to stand behind the healer, because I had to watch myself a lot more. This can lead to lesser focus on mechanics etc.

On Elsweyr I am absolutely switching to bow/bow necro. I would switch even if it did less dps than other classes just for the convenience.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Insco851 wrote: »

Rapid strike skill and snipe ulti ... perfect! Even in pvp

so a ranged flurry? no thanks.

Insco851

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Rapid strike skill and snipe ulti ... perfect! Even in pvp

so a ranged flurry? no thanks.

It can be the turret

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Insco851 wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Rapid strike skill and snipe ulti ... perfect! Even in pvp

so a ranged flurry? no thanks.

It can be the turret

i mean the snipe changing into rapid strike, unless you mean somehow having a spammable turret, which makes no sense.

Zelos

Jowrik wrote: »

First and foremost: I'm NOT much of a PVP-player, and definetly NOT a Snipe-user in PVP. I play mainly PVE Bow-builds, with about 50k current patch in Trials.
You never know these days....

I'm trying to have an honest, proper discussion about this skill in PVP and PVE. So far, I am only aware (through this forum honestly) of snipe spammers in PVP (which I find it to be a mis-use of the skill in itself). I know @SodanTok does a very good PVE analysis for Bow builds (check out his guides on here), so paging @SodanTok if he's willing to add to the discussion.

Snipe didn't feel changed at all (same delay, same break-up when weaving). Only the damage is now way less. It feels kind of weak right now and doesn't feel worth using, especially seeing the channel time. The 1s channel time still feels VERY off to use in a rotation and it honestly feels like i'm semi-breaking the game when I weave accordingly.

My personal suggestions:
- OR increase snipe's damage by 5% again (still a 20% nerf). Although i'd prefer suggestions below;
- OR decrease it's channel time more (0.6sec, like Rapid Strikes?) and change the damage accordingly. Regardless, reducing it's channel time by more will make the skill easier to fit into a proper rotation (see Rapid Strikes);
- OR, and this is one i firmly believe in, make it so Snipe gets slotted for Ultimate and take Rapid Fire as the spammable ability. I know this has been suggested atleast a couple of times on here. The Snipe-ultimate should see a cost increase to 200-250. (maybe see it's damage reduced big time and have a cost of 75).
-
You can make this work by reducing the amount of hits Rapid Fire does to 5 and reducing the damage accordingly, on par with other spammable abilities (for instance, every hit amounts to a same amount of damage Rapid Strikes would give, keeping in mind the Hawk Eye passive + Long Shots passive). Actually pretty much the same way Rapid Strikes works for Dual Wield but at range for bow. Morph-wise you could apply the same thing as Rapid Strikes (Extra healing or extra damage on final hit) or add some stacking penetration, short minor force duration, ... Make it so it can be dodgerolled (PVP counter) or blocked. Forget Minor Fracture/Minor Defile (or leave them on ult).

Thanks,
A concerned Bow PVE player

With pve in mind and bow builds in pve not being meta to my knowledge, it's still probably fun to use non meta dps builds. However the problem with snipe lies in the abuse its able to do in pvp, it applies one of the most powerful debuffs in pvp at a 45m range while invisible and has likely a 20k plus tooltip, while always applying the poisoned status effect(lethal arrow morph). While in pve its useable and not unbalanced, in pvp it is so unfortunately. Gankers constantly force people in to higher health pools and to be more tanky, then the gankers come here and complain about it even though they are the reason it happens. If I take off impreg and bloodspawn I can easily get hit by a 14k snipe from a invisible person across the map get major defile at 45% and be unable to recover from it. While snipe will take a hit in pve it's probably overall alot healthier for the game as it's too powerful in it's current state.

Jowrik

Zelos wrote: »

it applies one of the most powerful debuffs in pvp at a 45m range while invisible and has likely a 20k plus tooltip, while always applying the poisoned status effect(lethal arrow morph).

Sounds like an ultimate ability to me

Zelos wrote: »

While snipe will take a hit in pve it's probably overall alot healthier for the game as it's too powerful in it's current state.

Then...I don't really understand what the use is of a core Bow skill tree ability (the first one unlocked) for only (dare i say) half the content ESO has to offer (PVP). I am offering a possible solution for both types of content here

Jowrik

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

As necro, you don't use Snipe as spammable so...

The point here, though, is the Snipe skill, that needs reworked into a proper, usable and rotationally pleasant ranged spammable all classes have access to. I am aware of skills/classes that will perform better over other classes without a ranged stamina spammable. Thank you for your insight though.

Jowrik

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Rapid strike skill and snipe ulti ... perfect! Even in pvp

so a ranged flurry? no thanks.

Howcome? If the damage is adjusted accordingly, I don't see why that would not be an option.

Gilvoth

i enjoy archer and bow playstyle, please dont destroy it.

Toc de Malsvi

Gilvoth wrote: »

i enjoy archer and bow playstyle, please dont destroy it.

I really fail to see how this destroys it. It makes it better and more reliable. The only way this is worse is if you were trying to use and exploit health desync's through Snipe spam.

Olupajmibanan

Jowrik wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

As necro, you don't use Snipe as spammable so...

The point here, though, is the Snipe skill, that needs reworked into a proper, usable and rotationally pleasant ranged spammable all classes have access to. I am aware of skills/classes that will perform better over other classes without a ranged stamina spammable. Thank you for your insight though.

And my point still stands too. It is too much of an advantage over other bow/bow builds to be able to stand in front of healer and loosing little dps.

That being said, rather than focusing on Snipe rework, you should ask for Long Shots rework. By reworking the passive you can boost bow/bow dps to same level as it was before Elsweyr, take away the main disadvantage of non-necro (or non-warden) bow/bow build and finally, not making it OP in PvP.

montgomery.luke07b16_ESO

Snipe is really only abused by stam nightblade gankers. I run several Bow DPS builds in pvp (Stam sorc, Warden, Dragonknight ) and intend running a bow necro.

While i use snipe on my bars its not spammed or abused, i use it as part of a rotation.

Unfortunately all my builds are being effected due to the synergy of gankblades and snipe.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Jowrik wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Rapid strike skill and snipe ulti ... perfect! Even in pvp

so a ranged flurry? no thanks.

How come? If the damage is adjusted accordingly, I don't see why that would not be an option.

no one uses flurry, have you tried to use it? a range version would be no better.

kalunte

i personnaly only support the idea of reducing the cast time.

as a 100% bow/bow user in pve since the game's release 5years ago, and a bow/2h in pvp (because of scales...) i feel like the cast time on the bow's spammable is what makes it unique.

the same snipe-like spaming could be done with Dark flare (same skill, but with a magicka templar, same stun if cast from stealth, major defile, everything) but it hasnt been done by the most because templars are not into stealthing and mobility in pvp situation.
still a vampire magplar could be the same curse as nightblade snipe-spamer when combining it with an appropriate combo:
stealth => darkflare => purifying light => 2nd darkflare or vampire's bane => radiant oppression.

i've been doing this personnaly on a friend's char, and it is really as t-bag rewarding as snipe spaming ^^


As for pve, as long as there is a reliable (i.e. effective heavy dmging single target) spammable, weither channeled or casted or instant, doesnt change anything. that's why i dont support the idea of making snipe an ult, and rapid fire a spammable.


ps: even if it is very complained at, snipe is a fair skill since it can be avoided easily and only hit one target after another, even the travel time, sound animation, and visual animation give you time to avoid/mitigate it easily once the battle starts. once in battle you also can interrupt it with a bash.
the health desync is an issue for sure.
i rarely die to a sniper if i'm not watching my inventory when i'm getting ganked tho.
anim-cut on DBoS or scorch is much more unfair to my eyes since you're not warned they are landing on your face before they hit you.

(ps2: assuming snipe's travel time as been reduced, it might be less easy to avoid in the futur..)

chris211

Gilvoth wrote: »

i enjoy archer and bow playstyle, please dont destroy it.

i think snipe should be nerfed even more

SodanTok

I dont have much words for 'how to fix' Snipe anymore since if past tells anything it tells this was the 'big' patch for snipe. I just dont see them bothering with anything bigger for next 3 years.

And given how bad and boring this skill is I literally like every suggestion that makes it better (not necessarily damage wise).
In summary:
This skill is the spammable of bow line and pvp burst ability of bow line because other 4 skills clearly arent.
It woudlnt have to be bow spammable if bow passives were designed better and using other spammables didnt mean profiting from single passive (+5% crit, so nice).
It wouldnt have to be big burst ability if other skills could add on the burst or if other stam skills had something to supplement it. Unless you play warden with sub assault you literally dont have any reliable burst in any toolkit. Neither ultimates. Neither good pressure like bleeds. Neither effective execute

We have 5 and soon to be 6 magicka classes with half of them playing ranged. Obviously there is a way to make ranged combat work. You know, ranged combat where you dont need to cloak, killing enemies within 3s of engaging or having to stand on a keep wall.
And no when I say ranged I dont mean 'i want to pew pew from 50m range and never be in danger'. I dont get why that is the assumptions all the time, its like people literally cannot imagine 'magsorc but its stam'