Grim focus change

Hyzock

Talking from a PvP perspective, this has to be one of the most horrible changes that happened on PTS alongside making coag scale of missing magicka and giving shields cast time. Nightblades now have the most damage mitigation in the game (if you don't include resists). Grim focus + minor maim from shade or low slash + minor protection from temporal guard means they now have 38% damage mitigation if you don't include resists. This is so much damage mitigation that bad healing doesn't even matter anymore, this single change will make nightblades one of the tankiest classes, if not the tankiest class in the game.

I know the patch notes only just got released but you don't need to test it in game to know that 15% extra damage mitigation is ridiculous. This change can't possibly make it to live.

Edit: worded it differently
Another edit: Ignore the mathematical errors, i just added it all this way to make it easy to compare to other classes.

Onefrkncrzypope

Resistance is calculated before percentages though. Therefore are weaker than resistance buffs. Or did that change?

LordTareq

Hyzock wrote: »

Talking from a PvP perspective, this has to be one of the most horrible changes that happened on PTS alongside making coag scale of missing magicka and giving shields cast time. Nightblades now have the most damage mitigation in the game before resists. Grim focus + minor maim from shade or low slash + minor protection from temporal guard means they now have 38% damage mitigation before resists. This is so much damage mitigation that bad healing doesn't even matter anymore, this single change will make nightblades one of the tankiest classes, if not the tankiest class in the game.

I know the patch notes only just got released but you don't need to test it in game to know that 15% extra damage mitigation is ridiculous. This change can't possibly make it to live.

That is not how mitigation stacks. Shoo.

Hyzock

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Resistance is calculated before percentages though.

With before resists i just mean that even if they somehow had 0 resists, they'd still have 38% dmg mitigation. Didn't mean it as in the order the sources of dmg mitigation are applied.

Insco851

Hyzock wrote: »

Talking from a PvP perspective, this has to be one of the most horrible changes that happened on PTS alongside making coag scale of missing magicka and giving shields cast time. Nightblades now have the most damage mitigation in the game before resists. Grim focus + minor maim from shade or low slash + minor protection from temporal guard means they now have 38% damage mitigation before resists. This is so much damage mitigation that bad healing doesn't even matter anymore, this single change will make nightblades one of the tankiest classes, if not the tankiest class in the game.

I know the patch notes only just got released but you don't need to test it in game to know that 15% extra damage mitigation is ridiculous. This change can't possibly make it to live.

Lol pshhhh I wish the math worked like that...

Onefrkncrzypope

Hyzock wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Resistance is calculated before percentages though.

With before resists i just mean that even if they somehow had 0 resists, they'd still have 38% dmg mitigation. Didn't mean it as in the order the sources of dmg mitigation are applied.

Yeah but you can't ignore that. It's weaker than actual 38% damage mitigation.

Hyzock

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Hyzock wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Resistance is calculated before percentages though.

With before resists i just mean that even if they somehow had 0 resists, they'd still have 38% dmg mitigation. Didn't mean it as in the order the sources of dmg mitigation are applied.

Yeah but you can't ignore that. It's weaker than actual 38% damage mitigation.

It's still an absurd amount of damage mitigation though, and nightblades already have enough tools to survive, survivability wasn't an issue for nightblades.

Scarpion

For sure calculated it's not exactly 38% but it's still more than any other class in the game. Nightblade is meant to be the squishy class that survives using cloak, shade and roll dodge rather than just being a full on face tank because of the mitigation it receives as well as their own class skills and game mechanics.

Jhalin

Mitigation is mutliplicative

You can’t just add it all together and call it done. Not to mention anyone using the proc won’t have the full mitigation value most of the time.

Anyone using it regularly will on average have 6% damage mitigation, which in reality only adds 3% or so extra mitigation when you have the usual sources in CP and Major resist buffs

twing1_

Despite the blatant mathematical errors in the OP, nightblades do have the most sources of mitigation accross all classes. In fact, the only source of mitigation they are missing is minor evasion.

They have access to (from class skills only):
-major ward/resolve from shadow barrier
-minor ward/resolve from mirage
-major evasion from blur
-minor protection from dark cloak
-major protection from consuming darkness
-unnamed 15% damage reduction from grim focus

This does seem like an identity crisis. In the character creation screen, nightblades are reffered to as "relying variously on stealth, blades and speed" and "trusting to their luck and cunning to survive".

With all these mitigations, it sure does not seem like it.

Hyzock

Jhalin wrote: »

Mitigation is mutliplicative

You can’t just add it all together and call it done. Not to mention anyone using the proc won’t have the full mitigation value most of the time.

Anyone using it regularly will on average have 6% damage mitigation, which in reality only adds 3% or so extra mitigation when you have the usual sources in CP and Major resist buffs

(Talking about PvP) You're not gonna use it when you're under a lot of pressure and it doesn't take long at all to get 5 stacks, so uptime on that 15% is gonna be really high in PvP, so uptime on 5 stacks isn't really an argument in PvP.

Jhalin

Hyzock wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Mitigation is mutliplicative

You can’t just add it all together and call it done. Not to mention anyone using the proc won’t have the full mitigation value most of the time.

Anyone using it regularly will on average have 6% damage mitigation, which in reality only adds 3% or so extra mitigation when you have the usual sources in CP and Major resist buffs

(Talking about PvP) You're not gonna use it when you're under a lot of pressure and it doesn't take long at all to get 5 stacks, so uptime on that 15% is gonna be really high in PvP, so uptime on 5 stacks isn't really an argument in PvP.

5 seconds in PvP is a long time, not sure what you’re on

Hyzock

Jhalin wrote: »

Hyzock wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Mitigation is mutliplicative

You can’t just add it all together and call it done. Not to mention anyone using the proc won’t have the full mitigation value most of the time.

Anyone using it regularly will on average have 6% damage mitigation, which in reality only adds 3% or so extra mitigation when you have the usual sources in CP and Major resist buffs

(Talking about PvP) You're not gonna use it when you're under a lot of pressure and it doesn't take long at all to get 5 stacks, so uptime on that 15% is gonna be really high in PvP, so uptime on 5 stacks isn't really an argument in PvP.

5 seconds in PvP is a long time, not sure what you’re on

It's a L2P issue if you use up the stacks when you're about to need the damage mitigation, 5 seconds isn't long if you're smart about using or saving up stacks.

Ragnaroek93

Needs to be tested out to be honest. Last time when I played my Nb on PTS it was in an awful state with basically no pressure, no tankiness and no dangerous burst, getting a bit more defense now is just fair after all these nerfs. I'm worried that this will benefit tanks too much tho but this isn't a Nb only issue. Heavy stam sets not adjusted at all, sword and board skill line is still hilarious overtuned compared to 2h and bow and medium armor loses it's identity. Stamina Dk with new Cauterize has ridiculous healing as well now (healing by itself isn't that much of an issue but block healing is).

Royalthought

twing1_ wrote: »

Despite the blatant mathematical errors in the OP, nightblades do have the most sources of mitigation accross all classes. In fact, the only source of mitigation they are missing is minor evasion.

They have access to (from class skills only):
-major ward/resolve from shadow barrier
-minor ward/resolve from mirage
-major evasion from blur
-minor protection from dark cloak
-major protection from consuming darkness
-unnamed 15% damage reduction from grim focus

This does seem like an identity crisis. In the character creation screen, nightblades are reffered to as "relying variously on stealth, blades and speed" and "trusting to their luck and cunning to survive".

With all these mitigations, it sure does not seem like it.

Excluding grim focus, none of those abilities ever put nbs on top as the best or even goto tank. In fact theyve been one of the "weaker" classes for tanking.

The change to grim focus wont all the sudden change that.

Hopefully it opens the door for build diversity.

zyk

#hirewrobel

KatySpirit

Want to be a tank???? Here, use this burst damage ability to mitigate damage while we gut your already weak self healing move!!!!!! We didn't do the math, but we're confident that with all this mitigation you don't even need healing, you just won't take damage!!!! Oh and you'll be in for a treat next patch when we realize this is OP in PVP and just remove it entirely and maybe make nightblades receive less healing in general. No one likes feeling competent, right??? Where's the challenge in that????

P.S. if you want to tank, you should have selected the Tank class (spelled D-R-A-G-O-N-K-N-I-G-H-T) on the character creation screen. Wanna buy a character slot?

Ace_SiN

twing1_ wrote: »

Despite the blatant mathematical errors in the OP, nightblades do have the most sources of mitigation accross all classes. In fact, the only source of mitigation they are missing is minor evasion.

They have access to (from class skills only):
-major ward/resolve from shadow barrier
-minor ward/resolve from mirage
-major evasion from blur
-minor protection from dark cloak
-major protection from consuming darkness
-unnamed 15% damage reduction from grim focus

This does seem like an identity crisis. In the character creation screen, nightblades are reffered to as "relying variously on stealth, blades and speed" and "trusting to their luck and cunning to survive".

With all these mitigations, it sure does not seem like it.

Honestly, they need to change the outdated descriptions. The game has been revamped several times at this point. NBs haven't been solely "rogues" in a long time. Also, you could make a tanky NB Warrior (at least in PvP) well before ZOS fully embraced the idea. The vanilla NB could be very tanky before being labeled Magblade and nerfed to the ground.

Ectheliontnacil

I mean you'd have a point if it was actually 38% mitigation. But ofc mitigation is calculated multiplicatively and factoring in cp and resistances, it's way way lower.

Here's a fairly straightforward explanation of how mitigation is calculated in game. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1
If you feel like it you can update the op once you get a better approximation.

But the main issue with your argument is the fact that (magblades especially) will never really exceed 12% the bonus, as they fire the spectral bow at 4 stacks. Provided you're playing offensively .

And when on the defence it's wrong to suggest that you can reliably get those 5 stacks up. You will be cloaking and dodging, line of sighting etc. - basically you won't stand there light attack weaving.

So the only scenario where this 15% bonus will actually (reliably) come to play is when you predict an increase in dmg received and don't use the spectral bow. Now in some cases this is easy (e.g. charging zerg) but just as often you will be jumped by gankers or some players exiting a keep, without warning. It's not an L2P issue as you suggest, pvp is simply impossible to predict.

So in conclusion spectral bow provides low mitigation and has a very unreliable uptime.
The ability sounds awkward to use and this mini-game concept is ludicrous. Who even comes up with that stuff?

Imo magblades would be far better off receiving major sorcery/prophecy or something (if they really are determined to remove minor berserk).
For stamblades maybe just keep the endurance and lose the berserk?

Hyzock

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

I mean you'd have a point if it was actually 38% mitigation. But ofc mitigation is calculated multiplicatively and factoring in cp and resistances, it's way way lower.

Here's a fairly straightforward explanation of how mitigation is calculated in game. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1
If you feel like it you can update the op once you get a better approximation.

But the main issue with your argument is the fact that (magblades especially) will never really exceed 12% the bonus, as they fire the spectral bow at 4 stacks. Provided you're playing offensively .

And when on the defence it's wrong to suggest that you can reliably get those 5 stacks up. You will be cloaking and dodging, line of sighting etc. - basically you won't stand there light attack weaving.

So the only scenario where this 15% bonus will actually (reliably) come to play is when you predict an increase in dmg received and don't use the spectral bow. Now in some cases this is easy (e.g. charging zerg) but just as often you will be jumped by gankers or some players exiting a keep, without warning. It's not an L2P issue as you suggest, pvp is simply impossible to predict.

So in conclusion spectral bow provides low mitigation and has a very unreliable uptime.
The ability sounds awkward to use and this mini-game concept is ludicrous. Who even comes up with that stuff?

Imo magblades would be far better off receiving major sorcery/prophecy or something (if they really are determined to remove minor berserk).
For stamblades maybe just keep the endurance and lose the berserk?

I'm sorry but it's really easy to predict when you're gonna take a lot of damage and if you la weave decently it doesn't take long at all to build stacks when you're on defense. Uptime shouldn't even be an argument in this discussion.

And as for how much the damage mitigation is in practice, i'll be testing it when pts goes live and post here how much it is actually mitigating.

Kruwos

Hyzock wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Hyzock wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Mitigation is mutliplicative

You can’t just add it all together and call it done. Not to mention anyone using the proc won’t have the full mitigation value most of the time.

Anyone using it regularly will on average have 6% damage mitigation, which in reality only adds 3% or so extra mitigation when you have the usual sources in CP and Major resist buffs

(Talking about PvP) You're not gonna use it when you're under a lot of pressure and it doesn't take long at all to get 5 stacks, so uptime on that 15% is gonna be really high in PvP, so uptime on 5 stacks isn't really an argument in PvP.

5 seconds in PvP is a long time, not sure what you’re on

It's a L2P issue if you use up the stacks when you're about to need the damage mitigation, 5 seconds isn't long if you're smart about using or saving up stacks.

Keep in mind you can't save the stacks in between fights. The second you aren't in combat any more they are gone and you have to rebuild them.

Given how squishy NBs tend to be this is an idiotic change to grim focus. The devs are trying to make a DD burst ability viable for all 3 roles but that just won't happen especially in pvp as a DD NB will be using up the stacks for burst given how long it takes to gain. Between all three roles each of them will only be actively using one half of grim focus at this point which means the skill itself is now lacking a clear identity. Not to mention a medium armor DD will never out last a hvy DK/templar/warden in pvp.

LordTareq

nvm, misread

Temeraire507

edit: redundant content

BlackMadara

They would actually get 33.5% damage mitigation, if they cast shade and it attacks the target, they sit on 5 stacks of in combat grim focus, and have minor protection up. This isn't just "passive mitigation. The player has to actively keep these buffs up, which is how it should be, and their are tradeoffs associated.

Shade must be placed near the opponent. This reduces the NB's ability to kite and juke with the shade. So they can get either more damage and a strong debuff, or have an escape option.

With Grim Focus, one must build 5 stacks to reach the full 15% damage reduction, which takes at minimum 5s, and not use the powerful bow proc. So they can either get damage reduction or high damage.

For Minor Protection, one must either run an armor set, psijic ult, or dark clock, losing invisibility. All have a cost to benefit trade off.

Nerftheforums

BlackMadara wrote: »

They would actually get 33.5% damage mitigation, if they cast shade and it attacks the target, they sit on 5 stacks of in combat grim focus, and have minor protection up. This isn't just "passive mitigation. The player has to actively keep these buffs up, which is how it should be, and their are tradeoffs associated.

Shade must be placed near the opponent. This reduces the NB's ability to kite and juke with the shade. So they can get either more damage and a strong debuff, or have an escape option.

With Grim Focus, one must build 5 stacks to reach the full 15% damage reduction, which takes at minimum 5s, and not use the powerful bow proc. So they can either get damage reduction or high damage.

For Minor Protection, one must either run an armor set, psijic ult, or dark clock, losing invisibility. All have a cost to benefit trade off.

Your lack of game knowledge is impressing. I don't even know how yo answer. Wanna hop in discord one of these days? There are so many mechanics you seem you don't know, maybe me and others can help you out understanding stuff we have also guides, tutorials and stuff. Let me know, I'd like to help you out! I like helping new players

Trandaner

BlackMadara wrote: »

They would actually get 33.5% damage mitigation, if they cast shade and it attacks the target, they sit on 5 stacks of in combat grim focus, and have minor protection up. This isn't just "passive mitigation. The player has to actively keep these buffs up, which is how it should be, and their are tradeoffs associated.

Shade must be placed near the opponent. This reduces the NB's ability to kite and juke with the shade. So they can get either more damage and a strong debuff, or have an escape option.

With Grim Focus, one must build 5 stacks to reach the full 15% damage reduction, which takes at minimum 5s, and not use the powerful bow proc. So they can either get damage reduction or high damage.

For Minor Protection, one must either run an armor set, psijic ult, or dark clock, losing invisibility. All have a cost to benefit trade off.

You are totaly right, I mean slotting an ability, pressing ONE button and doing 5 light attacks is so hard to pull off. It takes years of practice and only the best players are able to do that.

Ectheliontnacil

Hyzock wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

I mean you'd have a point if it was actually 38% mitigation. But ofc mitigation is calculated multiplicatively and factoring in cp and resistances, it's way way lower.

Here's a fairly straightforward explanation of how mitigation is calculated in game. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1
If you feel like it you can update the op once you get a better approximation.

But the main issue with your argument is the fact that (magblades especially) will never really exceed 12% the bonus, as they fire the spectral bow at 4 stacks. Provided you're playing offensively .

And when on the defence it's wrong to suggest that you can reliably get those 5 stacks up. You will be cloaking and dodging, line of sighting etc. - basically you won't stand there light attack weaving.

So the only scenario where this 15% bonus will actually (reliably) come to play is when you predict an increase in dmg received and don't use the spectral bow. Now in some cases this is easy (e.g. charging zerg) but just as often you will be jumped by gankers or some players exiting a keep, without warning. It's not an L2P issue as you suggest, pvp is simply impossible to predict.

So in conclusion spectral bow provides low mitigation and has a very unreliable uptime.
The ability sounds awkward to use and this mini-game concept is ludicrous. Who even comes up with that stuff?

Imo magblades would be far better off receiving major sorcery/prophecy or something (if they really are determined to remove minor berserk).
For stamblades maybe just keep the endurance and lose the berserk?

I'm sorry but it's really easy to predict when you're gonna take a lot of damage and if you la weave decently it doesn't take long at all to build stacks when you're on defense. Uptime shouldn't even be an argument in this discussion.

And as for how much the damage mitigation is in practice, i'll be testing it when pts goes live and post here how much it is actually mitigating.

How do you 'predict' being ganked mid fight?
And how would you get your stacks up on a magblade while being chased by a zerg, or generally having to LoS because of pressure? When you need it most you won't have access to the mitigation, so uptime should be part of the discussion. And when you're offensive the average bonus provided will be like 6%...which will be a completely negligible amount of mitigation.
I mean I agree with you that it's a bad change but for completely different reasons. ^^

Also I guess the mitigation to direct dmg will be maybe 5%-6%?. Very rough estimate, please include all your sources of dmg mitigation though, in case you test it on the pts, otherwise your result isn't really saying much.

Hyzock

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

Hyzock wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

I mean you'd have a point if it was actually 38% mitigation. But ofc mitigation is calculated multiplicatively and factoring in cp and resistances, it's way way lower.

Here's a fairly straightforward explanation of how mitigation is calculated in game. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-for-morrowind-new-calculator/p1
If you feel like it you can update the op once you get a better approximation.

But the main issue with your argument is the fact that (magblades especially) will never really exceed 12% the bonus, as they fire the spectral bow at 4 stacks. Provided you're playing offensively .

And when on the defence it's wrong to suggest that you can reliably get those 5 stacks up. You will be cloaking and dodging, line of sighting etc. - basically you won't stand there light attack weaving.

So the only scenario where this 15% bonus will actually (reliably) come to play is when you predict an increase in dmg received and don't use the spectral bow. Now in some cases this is easy (e.g. charging zerg) but just as often you will be jumped by gankers or some players exiting a keep, without warning. It's not an L2P issue as you suggest, pvp is simply impossible to predict.

So in conclusion spectral bow provides low mitigation and has a very unreliable uptime.
The ability sounds awkward to use and this mini-game concept is ludicrous. Who even comes up with that stuff?

Imo magblades would be far better off receiving major sorcery/prophecy or something (if they really are determined to remove minor berserk).
For stamblades maybe just keep the endurance and lose the berserk?

I'm sorry but it's really easy to predict when you're gonna take a lot of damage and if you la weave decently it doesn't take long at all to build stacks when you're on defense. Uptime shouldn't even be an argument in this discussion.

And as for how much the damage mitigation is in practice, i'll be testing it when pts goes live and post here how much it is actually mitigating.

How do you 'predict' being ganked mid fight?
And how would you get your stacks up on a magblade while being chased by a zerg, or generally having to LoS because of pressure? When you need it most you won't have access to the mitigation, so uptime should be part of the discussion.
I mean I agree with you that it's a bad change but for completely different reasons. ^^

Also I guess the mitigation to direct dmg will be maybe 5%-6%?. Very rough estimate, please include all your sources of dmg mitigation though, in case you test it on the pts, otherwise your result isn't really saying much.

Getting ganked is rare thing nowadays and is probably the only exception to what i said, in most situations you should be able to predict when you're going to get hit hard. And you get stacks while being chased by a zerg by just la weaving whatever you're doing while being chased? It's only if you're a stamblade without bow and with no one in melee range that you can't build up stacks.

About the testing, i'll post every buff/debuff active and i'll most likely test it on light, med and heavy to see how much resists interact with it.

Ragnaroek93

People need to calm and test it on PTS. It's pretty much the same as old Major Evasion on average.

Runefang

It just feels like a stupid change that makes no sense at all, they've trashed what was one of the coolest skills in the game.

Hyzock

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

People need to calm and test it on PTS. It's pretty much the same as old Major Evasion on average.

In which universe is nightblades having the equivalent of old major evasion not OP????