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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8235739/
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wish pets werent so strong

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Apox
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parsed today, no pets, 40k, 1 pet (matriarch, heal morph) 43k, familiar 46k

thats a lot of dps to come from pretty much nowhere.

maybe im old fashioned but i prefer to do my dps myself, not have ai do it for me
  • Rohamad_Ali
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    It's not from no where it's a slot used and most likely on both bars . That's a sacrifice .
  • Apox
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    like i said, my matriarch is morphed to heal, not damage. its literally a 3k dps gain just for having a different ability on my bar. it does damage by itself

    i think players who want the pet playstyle should be accommodated for, but they shouldnt absolutely blow away nonpet builds where the actual player is in control of 100% of their damage, not getting a lot of it from pets that are always attacking doing nothing wrong
  • dazee
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    I want pets to be strong but I want them to not be required. this means taking pets has to have a overall downside to it. it does becuase you have to double bar though.
    Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.
  • AcadianPaladin
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    Dual pet sorc devotes 40% of their 10 slots to those pets. The pets darn well better do some notable damage / earn their keep for eating slots that could be replaced by FOUR skills!

    OP, I understand your point. I simply feel very differently about it obviously. :)
    PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo
  • Apox
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    dazee wrote: »
    I want pets to be strong but I want them to not be required. this means taking pets has to have a overall downside to it. it does becuase you have to double bar though.

    it doesnt because the skills you replace with pets were already double barred to begin with
  • Apox
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    AcadianPaladin wrote: »
    Dual pet sorc devotes 40% of their 10 slots to those pets. The pets darn well better do some notable damage / earn their keep for eating slots that could be replaced by FOUR skills!

    OP, I understand your point. I simply feel very differently about it obviously. :)

    yes and nonpet sorcs devote 40% of their skill slots to other situational/passive abilities. its literally changing 1/2 skill slots per bar wit h2 other skills that simply do more damage, but they do the damage passively instead of interactively.

    i agree pet sorcs should have a spot to perform, but they shouldn't dominate because theyre simply easier to play, they play themselves almost

    i usually dont celebrate nerfs but the upcoming tuning to daedric pray is looking good to me. I just wish theyd buff nonpet variants a little more, the problem is the buffs sorc is receiving also effect petsorc.

    i simply thing zos just overtuned pets in wrathstone
    Edited by Apox on April 29, 2019 1:54AM
  • Emma_Overload
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    Just think of them as DOTs. DPS in ESO comes from DOTs, of which Sorcerers don't otherwise have very many. Pets provide the damage that Sorcs are lacking compared to classes like DKs and Nightblades. Do you really want Sorcs to do less damage? Because that's what's going to happen if pets get nerfed.

    When you guys grumble about pets, it's basically like a DK coming on here and complaining that he doesn't want to use fire spells because he wants to be a frost mage instead. Do you think ZOS should nerf all the DK fire spells just so some guy's "Frost Knight" build can seem viable? Because that's EXACTLY what you guys sound like. Absurd!

    I'm sorry you guys don't like pets, but they have ALWAYS been a huge chunk of the Sorcerer tool kit. The difference between now and 2014 is that now the pets actually pull their weight. Nobody tricked you when you rolled a Sorc, you knew what you were getting into. You can either use the pets or not, but please don't try get other Sorcs nerfed just because you can't get with the program.

    Edited by Emma_Overload on April 29, 2019 1:56AM
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • Apox
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    Emma_Overload wrote: »
    Just think of them as DOTs. DPS in ESO comes from DOTs, of which Sorcerers don't otherwise have very many. Pets provide the damage that Sorcs are lacking compared to classes like DKs and Nightblades. Do you really want Sorcs to do less damage? Because that's what's going to happen if pets get nerfed.

    When you guys grumble about pets, it's basically like a DK coming on here and complaining that he doesn't want to use fire spells because he wants to be a frost mage instead. Do you think ZOS should nerf all the DK fire spells just so some guy's "Frost Knight" build can seem viable? Because that's EXACTLY what you guys sound like. Absurd!

    I'm sorry you guys don't like pets, but they have ALWAYS been a huge chunk of the Sorcerer tool kit. The difference between now and 2014 is that now the pets actually pull their weight. Nobody tricked you when you rolled a Sorc, you knew what you were getting into. You can either use the pets or not, but please don't try get other Sorcs nerfed just because you can't get with the program.

    wow. just wow.

    why do you think i played magsorc rather than stamdk. its because i dont like the dot based gameplay. magsorc was drop conduit/blockade/haunting curse, then reactionary based gameplay of proccing cfrags

    if the player who plays magdk prefers more frost based spells, maybe he should play a mag warden with a frost staff.

    pets have never been a huge chunk of sorc toolkit. they existed to compensate for bad players who couldnt do a real rotation with proper weaving. now theyve just been too far overbuffed plain and simply. theres a reason why so many people run the alcast 1-bar vma petsorc build. its because theyre bad at the game. every high end magsorc i know that has a respectable parse hates the pets.

    now, if i want to progress vet trial score runs, im actively holding the team back unless i use pets.
    Edited by Apox on April 29, 2019 2:08AM
  • Emma_Overload
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    Apox wrote: »
    Emma_Overload wrote: »
    Just think of them as DOTs. DPS in ESO comes from DOTs, of which Sorcerers don't otherwise have very many. Pets provide the damage that Sorcs are lacking compared to classes like DKs and Nightblades. Do you really want Sorcs to do less damage? Because that's what's going to happen if pets get nerfed.

    When you guys grumble about pets, it's basically like a DK coming on here and complaining that he doesn't want to use fire spells because he wants to be a frost mage instead. Do you think ZOS should nerf all the DK fire spells just so some guy's "Frost Knight" build can seem viable? Because that's EXACTLY what you guys sound like. Absurd!

    I'm sorry you guys don't like pets, but they have ALWAYS been a huge chunk of the Sorcerer tool kit. The difference between now and 2014 is that now the pets actually pull their weight. Nobody tricked you when you rolled a Sorc, you knew what you were getting into. You can either use the pets or not, but please don't try get other Sorcs nerfed just because you can't get with the program.

    wow. just wow.

    why do you think i played magsorc rather than stamdk. its because i dont like the dot based gameplay. magsorc was drop conduit/blockade/haunting curse, then reactionary based gameplay of proccing cfrags

    if the player who plays magdk prefers more frost based spells, maybe he should play a mag warden with a frost staff.

    pets have never been a huge chunk of sorc toolkit. they existed to compensate for bad players who couldnt do a real rotation with proper weaving. now theyve just been too far overbuffed plain and simply. theres a reason why so many people run the alcast 1-bar vma petsorc build. its because theyre bad at the game. every high end magsorc i know that has a respectable parse hates the pets.

    now, if i want to progress vet trial score runs, im actively holding the team back unless i use pets.

    So you think pet sorcs can't weave or do dynamic rotations? Let me prove you wrong:

    https://youtu.be/4myHUmdJ-RY

    This is not an Alcast clone. I designed this direct damage build to use in situations where the tank is crappy and/or the bosses like to run all over the place. Ground DOT builds totally fall apart in those situations, which are frequent when you pug dungeons like I do. My 40K build actually does 40K. A lot of 60K parse dummy builds do more like 25K on a pug run.

    You make it sound like pets sorcs are bad or something, when it's perfectly obvious that you just don't like the pets and are fishing around for a pretext to get them nerfed. Don't be surprised when pet sorcs take offence, LOL!

    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • Alienoutlaw
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    i have played pet sorc since day 1 both on xbox and PC, we have been through many nerf's, reduction in max magicka from necropotence loss of the magician tree in CP system, we were made to sacrifice our builds or be excluded from certain content because of the way pets behaved (no fault of our own), running a pet build means you loose a skill slot on both bars (imagine how much stronger we would be with a pet bar and single target bar?) the dps increase of "3-6k)" means nothing without context 1) if you use necropotence you max magicka is increased when pet is active therefore increasing your damage, 2)whilst your dps increase seems to come from nowhere it is in fact (as already mentioned) a DOT small damage but constant until killed then we have to recast (which takes a long time and can be interupted.
    3) the higher your damage multipliers in your CP passives the more damage your pets with do (as of last patch i think) ie higher CP = more dps
    you dont seem to fully understand how or why a pet build works (when played effectively) or doesnt work (when button bashed)
    to call for a nerf with no knowledge of what you want nerfed or how is just silly.
  • GeorgeBlack
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    AcadianPaladin wrote: »
    Dual pet sorc devotes 40% of their 10 slots to those pets. The pets darn well better do some notable damage / earn their keep for eating slots that could be replaced by FOUR skills!

    OP, I understand your point. I simply feel very differently about it obviously. :)

    Ye but ward pew pew curse and streak does the rest.
    What's to worry? Pets also block line of sight. Dont play the victim here
  • Apox
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    Emma_Overload wrote: »
    Apox wrote: »
    Emma_Overload wrote: »
    Just think of them as DOTs. DPS in ESO comes from DOTs, of which Sorcerers don't otherwise have very many. Pets provide the damage that Sorcs are lacking compared to classes like DKs and Nightblades. Do you really want Sorcs to do less damage? Because that's what's going to happen if pets get nerfed.

    When you guys grumble about pets, it's basically like a DK coming on here and complaining that he doesn't want to use fire spells because he wants to be a frost mage instead. Do you think ZOS should nerf all the DK fire spells just so some guy's "Frost Knight" build can seem viable? Because that's EXACTLY what you guys sound like. Absurd!

    I'm sorry you guys don't like pets, but they have ALWAYS been a huge chunk of the Sorcerer tool kit. The difference between now and 2014 is that now the pets actually pull their weight. Nobody tricked you when you rolled a Sorc, you knew what you were getting into. You can either use the pets or not, but please don't try get other Sorcs nerfed just because you can't get with the program.

    wow. just wow.

    why do you think i played magsorc rather than stamdk. its because i dont like the dot based gameplay. magsorc was drop conduit/blockade/haunting curse, then reactionary based gameplay of proccing cfrags

    if the player who plays magdk prefers more frost based spells, maybe he should play a mag warden with a frost staff.

    pets have never been a huge chunk of sorc toolkit. they existed to compensate for bad players who couldnt do a real rotation with proper weaving. now theyve just been too far overbuffed plain and simply. theres a reason why so many people run the alcast 1-bar vma petsorc build. its because theyre bad at the game. every high end magsorc i know that has a respectable parse hates the pets.

    now, if i want to progress vet trial score runs, im actively holding the team back unless i use pets.

    So you think pet sorcs can't weave or do dynamic rotations? Let me prove you wrong:

    https://youtu.be/4myHUmdJ-RY

    This is not an Alcast clone. I designed this direct damage build to use in situations where the tank is crappy and/or the bosses like to run all over the place. Ground DOT builds totally fall apart in those situations, which are frequent when you pug dungeons like I do. My 40K build actually does 40K. A lot of 60K parse dummy builds do more like 25K on a pug run.

    You make it sound like pets sorcs are bad or something, when it's perfectly obvious that you just don't like the pets and are fishing around for a pretext to get them nerfed. Don't be surprised when pet sorcs take offence, LOL!

    congratulations. you made a build thats designed to excel when playing with bad people.

    or you could just avoid playing with bad people.

    I dont like pets. I never tried to hide the fact. However it is obvious that gaining 3k dps just for summoning a pet is a little broken. Add the 2nd pet and press a button every 6 seconds for 3k more dps.

    Versus playing with no pets where all of your damage is from you and you alone. This build should have the higher dps potential because it has a higher skill cap. We shouldnt reward subpar players with higher dps. may as well bot your account at that point
  • Alienoutlaw
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    gotta be the 1st time i have ever read on this forum nerf something i find it to easy, sounds more like someone keeps getting killed by them built one to see wot the fuss was about
  • Apox
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    Alienoutlaw wrote: »
    gotta be the 1st time i have ever read on this forum nerf something i find it to easy, sounds more like someone keeps getting killed by them built one to see wot the fuss was about

    well youd be wrong.

    i just dont like having to use pets in pve
  • idk
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    There was a time pets were not so strong. They were useless for anything but casual builds.

    I think it is good they are useful since having useless skills is a waste. You do not have to use them if you do not want.
  • Alienoutlaw
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    Apox wrote: »
    Alienoutlaw wrote: »
    gotta be the 1st time i have ever read on this forum nerf something i find it to easy, sounds more like someone keeps getting killed by them built one to see wot the fuss was about

    well youd be wrong.

    i just dont like having to use pets in pve

    nobody is saying you have to?
  • Emma_Overload
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    Apox wrote: »
    Emma_Overload wrote: »
    Apox wrote: »
    Emma_Overload wrote: »
    Just think of them as DOTs. DPS in ESO comes from DOTs, of which Sorcerers don't otherwise have very many. Pets provide the damage that Sorcs are lacking compared to classes like DKs and Nightblades. Do you really want Sorcs to do less damage? Because that's what's going to happen if pets get nerfed.

    When you guys grumble about pets, it's basically like a DK coming on here and complaining that he doesn't want to use fire spells because he wants to be a frost mage instead. Do you think ZOS should nerf all the DK fire spells just so some guy's "Frost Knight" build can seem viable? Because that's EXACTLY what you guys sound like. Absurd!

    I'm sorry you guys don't like pets, but they have ALWAYS been a huge chunk of the Sorcerer tool kit. The difference between now and 2014 is that now the pets actually pull their weight. Nobody tricked you when you rolled a Sorc, you knew what you were getting into. You can either use the pets or not, but please don't try get other Sorcs nerfed just because you can't get with the program.

    wow. just wow.

    why do you think i played magsorc rather than stamdk. its because i dont like the dot based gameplay. magsorc was drop conduit/blockade/haunting curse, then reactionary based gameplay of proccing cfrags

    if the player who plays magdk prefers more frost based spells, maybe he should play a mag warden with a frost staff.

    pets have never been a huge chunk of sorc toolkit. they existed to compensate for bad players who couldnt do a real rotation with proper weaving. now theyve just been too far overbuffed plain and simply. theres a reason why so many people run the alcast 1-bar vma petsorc build. its because theyre bad at the game. every high end magsorc i know that has a respectable parse hates the pets.

    now, if i want to progress vet trial score runs, im actively holding the team back unless i use pets.

    So you think pet sorcs can't weave or do dynamic rotations? Let me prove you wrong:

    https://youtu.be/4myHUmdJ-RY

    This is not an Alcast clone. I designed this direct damage build to use in situations where the tank is crappy and/or the bosses like to run all over the place. Ground DOT builds totally fall apart in those situations, which are frequent when you pug dungeons like I do. My 40K build actually does 40K. A lot of 60K parse dummy builds do more like 25K on a pug run.

    You make it sound like pets sorcs are bad or something, when it's perfectly obvious that you just don't like the pets and are fishing around for a pretext to get them nerfed. Don't be surprised when pet sorcs take offence, LOL!

    congratulations. you made a build thats designed to excel when playing with bad people.

    or you could just avoid playing with bad people.

    I dont like pets. I never tried to hide the fact. However it is obvious that gaining 3k dps just for summoning a pet is a little broken. Add the 2nd pet and press a button every 6 seconds for 3k more dps.

    Versus playing with no pets where all of your damage is from you and you alone. This build should have the higher dps potential because it has a higher skill cap. We shouldnt reward subpar players with higher dps. may as well bot your account at that point

    What you are saying doesn't even make any sense. How is hitting Lightning Splash and Elemental Blockade every 10 seconds any more skillful than refreshing the Familiar and the Tormentor every 8 and 15 seconds respectively? It's all just clicking buttons, LOL. Come on man, you're just reaching.
    #CAREBEARMASTERRACE
  • Alienoutlaw
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    whats next wardens? they have pets how they any different?
    bitter taste of salt about this thread and for no real reason than personal preference
    i think Orcs are ugly can we remove them from the game? is literally how you sound
  • Apox
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    Alienoutlaw wrote: »
    Apox wrote: »
    Alienoutlaw wrote: »
    gotta be the 1st time i have ever read on this forum nerf something i find it to easy, sounds more like someone keeps getting killed by them built one to see wot the fuss was about

    well youd be wrong.

    i just dont like having to use pets in pve

    nobody is saying you have to?

    for score pushing in trials, yes I do. good job not reading my other replies.

    "What you are saying doesn't even make any sense. How is hitting Lightning Splash and Elemental Blockade every 10 seconds any more skillful than refreshing the Familiar and the Tormentor every 8 and 15 seconds respectively? It's all just clicking buttons, LOL. Come on man, you're just reaching. "

    You also didnt read my first post. my matriarch is morphed to heal, an its still a straight dk dps increase just for having it on my bars, not having to hit its button.

    "whats next wardens? they have pets how they any different?
    bitter taste of salt about this thread and for no real reason than personal preference
    i think Orcs are ugly can we remove them from the game? is literally how you sound"

    the only warden true pet that deals damage is their bear. shalks nor cliff racer count as a pet, and betty is utility.

    it doesnt matter how ugly orcs are, you dont gain 3-6k dps just for playing one. at the very least you have several other options that are extremely competitive with orcs. there is nothing that competes with pets right now. just bring out my matriarch and gain 3k dps for literally nothing

    and your argument is to remove them from the game because you dont like the way they look, not bring their power level down because they overperform. reductio ad absurdum just makes you look stupid because you cant formulate a real argument
    Edited by Apox on April 29, 2019 3:33AM
  • Alienoutlaw
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    Apox wrote: »
    Alienoutlaw wrote: »
    Apox wrote: »
    Alienoutlaw wrote: »
    gotta be the 1st time i have ever read on this forum nerf something i find it to easy, sounds more like someone keeps getting killed by them built one to see wot the fuss was about

    well youd be wrong.

    i just dont like having to use pets in pve

    nobody is saying you have to?

    for score pushing in trials, yes I do. good job not reading my other replies.

    "What you are saying doesn't even make any sense. How is hitting Lightning Splash and Elemental Blockade every 10 seconds any more skillful than refreshing the Familiar and the Tormentor every 8 and 15 seconds respectively? It's all just clicking buttons, LOL. Come on man, you're just reaching. "

    You also didnt read my first post. my matriarch is morphed to heal, an its still a straight dk dps increase just for having it on my bars, not having to hit its button.

    "whats next wardens? they have pets how they any different?
    bitter taste of salt about this thread and for no real reason than personal preference
    i think Orcs are ugly can we remove them from the game? is literally how you sound"

    the only warden true pet that deals damage is their bear. shalks nor cliff racer count as a pet, and betty is utility.

    it doesnt matter how ugly orcs are, you dont gain 3-6k dps just for playing one. at the very least you have several other options that are extremely competitive with orcs. there is nothing that competes with pets right now. just bring out my matriarch and gain 3k dps for literally nothing

    and your argument is to remove them from the game because you dont like the way they look, not bring their power level down because they overperform. reductio ad absurdum just makes you look stupid because you cant formulate a real argument

    i read your replies/comments and answered accordingly :)
  • dazee
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    Remove trial and VMA Leaderboards entirely no more being forced into certain races and builds. Win Win for everyone who isnt an arsehole who wants to prove themselves "better" than everyone else.
    Playing your character the way your character should play is all that matters. Play as well as you can but never betray the character. Doing so would make playing an mmoRPG pointless.
  • karekiz
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    Apox wrote: »
    parsed today, no pets, 40k, 1 pet (matriarch, heal morph) 43k, familiar 46k

    thats a lot of dps to come from pretty much nowhere.

    maybe im old fashioned but i prefer to do my dps myself, not have ai do it for me

    I would say.

    Roll a non pet class.

    But hey thats just me.

    I say nerf *light* attacks because their damage is too high. A *Light* attack should NEVER be above a class/weapon skill in a parse.
    Edited by karekiz on April 29, 2019 5:22AM
  • Lord-Otto
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    I am quite sure that non-petsorcs parse a couple k higher. Mid 50's instead of pet's early 50's as far as I can tell.
  • Apox
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    Lord-Otto wrote: »
    I am quite sure that non-petsorcs parse a couple k higher. Mid 50's instead of pet's early 50's as far as I can tell.

    you are quite wrong. pet sorc pulls well ahead of non pet.
  • Alienoutlaw
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    there is virtually no difference if the build is right
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8lY7ANfBLw

    Non Pet rotation 51.2k DPS 3M dummy parse 00:17
    Cmx report 01:20
    Superstar 01:32

    Pet rotation 53.3k DPS 3M dummy parse 01:36
    Cmx report 02:38
    Superstar 02:51

    just for info
  • Tasear
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    Apox wrote: »
    like i said, my matriarch is morphed to heal, not damage. its literally a 3k dps gain just for having a different ability on my bar. it does damage by itself

    i think players who want the pet playstyle should be accommodated for, but they shouldnt absolutely blow away nonpet builds where the actual player is in control of 100% of their damage, not getting a lot of it from pets that are always attacking doing nothing wrong

    Indeed twlight Maritach should not do damage and instead give it real utility 😏
  • BNOC
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    Alienoutlaw wrote: »
    there is virtually no difference if the build is right
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8lY7ANfBLw

    Non Pet rotation 51.2k DPS 3M dummy parse 00:17
    Cmx report 01:20
    Superstar 01:32

    Pet rotation 53.3k DPS 3M dummy parse 01:36
    Cmx report 02:38
    Superstar 02:51

    just for info

    Didn't watch your video but isn't this what the OP is highlighting?

    With 100% uptime, damage should always be higher for players that are producing their own damage, if anything, these two parse totals should be the other way around.

    He's effectively equating pets to proc sets, which I don't disagree with.

    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
    578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)

    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
    569,000 - 40 minutes (350CP, Non optimised runs)
  • Ragnaroek93
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    Matriach hits insanely hard in PvP too, this needs a big nerf. The Twilight is such a hardcarry it's unbelievable. I'd rather fight a heavy armor build with fury/7th or a proctard over a petsorc at this point. It's far worse than proc sets ever were. And no, the targetting isn't the problem, the 5-7k crits from the Twilight are.
    I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.
  • AcadianPaladin
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    @Apox where I think we can agree is that non-pet sorcs could use some help. While I run a 1 pet (matriarch) sorc, I like the sorc class and would very much if the class could support a good non-pet build as well as a pet build. The reason I run matriarch is that I want Eledrain on my back bar (that means destro/destro instead of a resto on back bar) and my only other choice for a burst heal is Dark Conversion which provides zero help to allies.

    To me the answer is buffing sorc in areas that bring non-pet builds up some. What I strongly disagree with is nerfing pets to drag down those builds. Or nerfing NBs to make non-pet sorcs 'comparitively' better. Ugh.

    Oh, since they are two completely different games let me point out that I play PvE only.
    PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo
  • Juhasow
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    Alienoutlaw wrote: »
    there is virtually no difference if the build is right
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8lY7ANfBLw

    Non Pet rotation 51.2k DPS 3M dummy parse 00:17
    Cmx report 01:20
    Superstar 01:32

    Pet rotation 53.3k DPS 3M dummy parse 01:36
    Cmx report 02:38
    Superstar 02:51

    just for info

    53k with pet on 3M dummy ? Your're doing something wrong. For me when I get less then 56k with pet that means I screwed rotation really badly.

    Here is example of what You can get with pet. This is selfbuffed btw minor berserk comes from slimecraw.9iiKBg6.png

    Btw in Your rotation without pet You were really lucky with crits while during parse with pet Your crits were pretty weak so that makes those 2 parses closer then they should be.
    Edited by Juhasow on April 29, 2019 11:39AM
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