Class Reps, do you have any insight?...

EpicRekkoning

Prior to update 22, I looked into all skills in the game to see the actual discrepancy in stam and magicka skills. Below is a summary of what I found. Do you (reps) know why ZOS is so heavy on magicka skills for classes? I know some argue it's because there are twice the number of stam weapons than magicka weapons, but when you look at all skills in the game, there's still a large discrepancy between magicka and stam skills. I curious on you thoughts.

Unmorphed Class Skills:
Total Skills: 75
Magicka Skills: 72 (96%)
Stamina Skills: 1 (~1%)
Other Skills: 2 (~3%)

Total Class Skills (Morphed and Unmorphed):
Total Skills: 225
Magicka Skills: 199 (~88%)
Stamina Skills: 18 (~8%)
Other Skills: 7 (~3%)

All in game Skills (Morphed and Unmorphed):
Total Skills: 426
Magicka Skills: 280 (~66%)
Stamina Skills: 130 (~31%)
Other Skills: 16 (~4%)

The_Lex

The class rep program, in my opinion, is just a placebo for the masses. It gives the impression that ZOS is interested in feedback to the point that it takes said feedback seriously. Yes, ZOS hosts the rep meetings. Yes, ZOS listens to the reps. But, much of the advice given by the reps is not implemented. ZOS is gonna do what ZOS is gonna do. It's their game, I guess.

DeadlyRecluse

Not a class rep but--

Almost all stam builds use magicka spells (buffs and debuffs, primarily, along with utility spells like streak/extended ritual/cloak). Almost no magicka builds use stamina spells. So there really shouldn't be symmetry or even anything resembling parity--and if those utility/buff/debuff spells cost stamina, that would make resource management on stam a bit rough.

Obviously there are a few pain points that might be helped by another stam morph here or there.

Mojmir

You technically wouldnt want all your spells coming from one resource. The main issue is scaling off resources imo.

Firstmep

This is beacuse each weapon has only 1 skill line, wheter its magic or stamina based, while classes have 3 skill lines each.

I like this comparison, its very telling.

Stamina characthers are also lacking in the group utility and group healing department, pretty massively too, when compared to magicka.

I hope in a future update they will look into this, as well as the many outdated active and passive skills that were left over from when the game was largely magicka based.

I thought this patch was going to do that, since @ZOS_BrianWheeler has stated that they wanted to update many skills to todays standards, but its clear that for the most part theyre just changing the duration/damage on many skill, and apart from a very few changes, no mechanical adjustments or changes are being made.

Unfortunately i dont belive we will see massive changes to the above discrepancy for a long time, as it takes them far too long to even change/update singular skills.

EpicRekkoning

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Not a class rep but--

Almost all stam builds use magicka spells (buffs and debuffs, primarily, along with utility spells like streak/extended ritual/cloak). Almost no magicka builds use stamina spells. So there really shouldn't be symmetry or even anything resembling parity--and if those utility/buff/debuff spells cost stamina, that would make resource management on stam a bit rough.

Obviously there are a few pain points that might be helped by another stam morph here or there.

So I completely agree with your comment on buffs, debuffs, and utility. I also know that some skills should be magicka based for tanking, healing, and/or support builds. However, given that classes are either stam or magicka based (outside of tanking), shouldn't there be more balance to stam and magicka class skills (I think you agree with your last statement).

DeadlyRecluse

EpicRekkoning wrote: »

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

Not a class rep but--

Almost all stam builds use magicka spells (buffs and debuffs, primarily, along with utility spells like streak/extended ritual/cloak). Almost no magicka builds use stamina spells. So there really shouldn't be symmetry or even anything resembling parity--and if those utility/buff/debuff spells cost stamina, that would make resource management on stam a bit rough.

Obviously there are a few pain points that might be helped by another stam morph here or there.

So I completely agree with your comment on buffs, debuffs, and utility. I also know that some skills should be magicka based for tanking, healing, and/or support builds. However, given that classes are either stam or magicka based (outside of tanking), shouldn't there be more balance to stam and magicka class skills (I think you agree with your last statement).

Yeah, I do agree--but I don't think a comparison of the total numbers of magicka to stamina skills really makes that point. IMO, the better approach is to go by class by class and see what makes the stam version of a given class distinct from the magicka version, as well as from other stam classes--

The obvious weak ones in terms of identity is stamsorc (which I really don't think is weak, but it's hard to argue that it doesn't lack identity. It's basically a weapons chassis with hurricane and streak, plus a few builds that run conversion--and DK, which is actually looking up now that noxious breath might actually be good (and again, I don't think stamDK is weak, it's just kinda homogeneous.

But stamblade, stamplar, and stamden don't really need any more love--they have plenty in their class toolkit, play super different from other classes and their magicka versions, imo.

ZOS has also started to crack the lid on letting skills that cost magicka scale on "highest resource" (the one DK skill, the new scaling on warden's spiderman heal). I think that's a promising direction, as it lets you maintain the resource management style of stam builds while giving them a few more effective options (and note that isn't reflected at all by an overall comparison of "skills that cost mag vs skills that cost stam.") Still interesting numbers, though!

EpicRekkoning

DeadlyRecluse wrote: »

ZOS has also started to crack the lid on letting skills that cost magicka scale on "highest resource" (the one DK skill, the new scaling on warden's spiderman heal). I think that's a promising direction, as it lets you maintain the resource management style of stam builds while giving them a few more effective options (and note that isn't reflected at all by an overall comparison of "skills that cost mag vs skills that cost stam.") Still interesting numbers, though!

I completely agree with your point and actually created a post on this last weekend after reading the change to one of the streak morphs (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/470186/possible-change-to-class-skills#latest.) I think this direction can create more identity for classes and may create a different approach to CP allocation.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Brrrofski

I do think every class should have a class based stamina and magica spammable.

Neither sorc has one
Stam DK doesn't have one

They should have this at least.

Donny_Vito

Yet Stamina builds have typically been the hardest-hitting and most effective in PvP. It is odd.

Joy_Division

The game was originally designed where every class skill (and most others) were magicka based, the idea apparently was the stamina would be used for defensive stuff like block, dodge, etc., and "stamina" weapons were supposed to be minor supplements and not really define builds.

That is why the original classes are so magicka based. They were updated (as opposed to redesigned) to include some stamina stuff but at their core they were intended to be "magicka."

I see what you are saying about the disparity, but a strict numbers breakdown like that does not work because there are certain skills, usually "buffs" that aren;t needed to scale damagewise, that stamina oriented players want to be magicka based: otherwise you're going to have a 10K pool of resource doing absolutely nothing and you will run out of your primary attack resource. Meanwhile, "magicka" players really don;t want to use stamina skills because they need that resource to block, dodge, etc.

As far as why aren't there more stamina damage skills on Sorcerers and Dragonknights and why don't stamina-based templars get more from their class, that's something we reps have asked ZoS ever since the program came into effect (about one year ago). And every time, ZOS gives us the same reason: they have limited resources to make changes and according to their data, they would serve more of customer base releasing new content and addressing issues that effect all players.

Note: I do not agree with their assessment. In my opinion, the issue of stamina-identity for at least three of the classes has been longstanding - going past 4 years now - and is long overdue.

Masel

Stamina Builds have access to 4 weapons, while magicka can only use 2 effectively. That's why this imbalance is there. This philosophy however has lead to stamina builds having the same skills on many builds, and some stamina specs (e.g. stamsorc and stam dk) getting almost nothing out of their class kit.


It's a pain point we've been communicating constantly over the last year, without a lot of success. We got necro to have more stamina morphs though, when we play tested it in February it had only two

WrathOfInnos

The numbers in the initial post are misleading. There are many skills that are designed for Stamina builds that are being counted as Magicka skills.

For example, Surge costs Magicka but in its unmorphed form only buffs damage on Stamina builds. The healing scales on whichever resource is highest.

Many defensive skills and cost Magicka, but are equally useful to Stamina builds. In fact, Stamina builds prefer that these do not cost their primary resource. This would include skills like Warden Frost Cloak and Nightblade Blur. The same can be said for the CC’s (like Aspect of Terror), debuffs (like Mark Target) and utility skills (like Accelerate).

So the count in the initial post really doesn’t say anything meaningful. Making any statement about number of skills applicable to Magicka or Stamina builds would require a much more in-depth analysis of how each skill is used.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

And yet, stamina characters are across the board more powerful in just about every piece of content outside of VMA, healing and a few niche support roles in PVP. The one saving grace that magic did have was as ranged DPS, but thanks to the trapping webs bow/bow meta nonsense, even that is gone.

ShadowKyuubi

Masel wrote: »

Stamina Builds have access to 4 weapons, while magicka can only use 2 effectively. That's why this imbalance is there. This philosophy however has lead to stamina builds having the same skills on many builds, and some stamina specs (e.g. stamsorc and stam dk) getting almost nothing out of their class kit.


It's a pain point we've been communicating constantly over the last year, without anpot of success. We got necro to have more stamina morphs though, when we play tested it in February it had only two

The work to making the Necro more stamina and magicka friendly is great, but that doesn't mean they should ignore the other classes. Why special attention to a class that only needed stamina morphs when looked at in February, when stamsorc and stamdk have needed them for years?

Oreyn_Bearclaw

ShadowKyuubi wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

Stamina Builds have access to 4 weapons, while magicka can only use 2 effectively. That's why this imbalance is there. This philosophy however has lead to stamina builds having the same skills on many builds, and some stamina specs (e.g. stamsorc and stam dk) getting almost nothing out of their class kit.


It's a pain point we've been communicating constantly over the last year, without anpot of success. We got necro to have more stamina morphs though, when we play tested it in February it had only two

The work to making the Necro more stamina and magicka friendly is great, but that doesn't mean they should ignore the other classes. Why special attention to a class that only needed stamina morphs when looked at in February, when stamsorc and stamdk have needed them for years?

Because the necro is still for sale....

EpicRekkoning

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

The numbers in the initial post are misleading. There are many skills that are designed for Stamina builds that are being counted as Magicka skills.

For example, Surge costs Magicka but in its unmorphed form only buffs damage on Stamina builds. The healing scales on whichever resource is highest.

Many defensive skills and cost Magicka, but are equally useful to Stamina builds. In fact, Stamina builds prefer that these do not cost their primary resource. This would include skills like Warden Frost Cloak and Nightblade Blur. The same can be said for the CC’s (like Aspect of Terror), debuffs (like Mark Target) and utility skills (like Accelerate).

So the count in the initial post really doesn’t say anything meaningful. Making any statement about number of skills applicable to Magicka or Stamina builds would require a much more in-depth analysis of how each skill is used.

I definitely agree with what you're saying about how the skills are used affects whether or not it should be magicka or stam and I agree that you can't make a determination strictly based on the number of skills. In reality, I do believe there should be more magicka than stam skills because of all of the points you mentioned above. My initial look wasn't to gain an in depth analysis, but rather to see if the discrepancy I've felt over the last 4 years was real.

The numbers are telling though when you consider for classes, there are 11 magicka skills for every 1 stamina skill. What this actually means does require more detailed analysis that I haven't done. However, I did record the numbers for every skill line and you can find that on a separate post (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/464857/is-this-a-problem-skill-related#latest). I will say that the trend is getting better when you consider more recent additions to skills lines, but I still think the 11:1 for class skills is an issue.

Maybe one of these days when life gives me more time, I'll run that in depth analysis.

Xvorg

EpicRekkoning wrote: »

Prior to update 22, I looked into all skills in the game to see the actual discrepancy in stam and magicka skills. Below is a summary of what I found. Do you (reps) know why ZOS is so heavy on magicka skills for classes? I know some argue it's because there are twice the number of stam weapons than magicka weapons, but when you look at all skills in the game, there's still a large discrepancy between magicka and stam skills. I curious on you thoughts.

Unmorphed Class Skills:
Total Skills: 75
Magicka Skills: 72 (96%)
Stamina Skills: 1 (~1%)
Other Skills: 2 (~3%)

Total Class Skills (Morphed and Unmorphed):
Total Skills: 225
Magicka Skills: 199 (~88%)
Stamina Skills: 18 (~8%)
Other Skills: 7 (~3%)

All in game Skills (Morphed and Unmorphed):
Total Skills: 426
Magicka Skills: 280 (~66%)
Stamina Skills: 130 (~31%)
Other Skills: 16 (~4%)

That's wrong. You are counting magicka skills as if you have access to all 280 magicka skills, when in fact you use like 1/5 of them.

Count them again per class and maybe I support your claim, but putting all magicka skills in the same bag is wrong. I whish I could use cloak or JB on my mDK

EpicRekkoning

Xvorg wrote: »

EpicRekkoning wrote: »

Prior to update 22, I looked into all skills in the game to see the actual discrepancy in stam and magicka skills. Below is a summary of what I found. Do you (reps) know why ZOS is so heavy on magicka skills for classes? I know some argue it's because there are twice the number of stam weapons than magicka weapons, but when you look at all skills in the game, there's still a large discrepancy between magicka and stam skills. I curious on you thoughts.

Unmorphed Class Skills:
Total Skills: 75
Magicka Skills: 72 (96%)
Stamina Skills: 1 (~1%)
Other Skills: 2 (~3%)

Total Class Skills (Morphed and Unmorphed):
Total Skills: 225
Magicka Skills: 199 (~88%)
Stamina Skills: 18 (~8%)
Other Skills: 7 (~3%)

All in game Skills (Morphed and Unmorphed):
Total Skills: 426
Magicka Skills: 280 (~66%)
Stamina Skills: 130 (~31%)
Other Skills: 16 (~4%)

That's wrong. You are counting magicka skills as if you have access to all 280 magicka skills, when in fact you use like 1/5 of them.

Count them again per class and maybe I support your claim, but putting all magicka skills in the same bag is wrong. I whish I could use cloak or BJB on my mDK

Check my other post in the link above. I have them broken down by class. I actually have each skill line broken down.

Xvorg

EpicRekkoning wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

EpicRekkoning wrote: »

Prior to update 22, I looked into all skills in the game to see the actual discrepancy in stam and magicka skills. Below is a summary of what I found. Do you (reps) know why ZOS is so heavy on magicka skills for classes? I know some argue it's because there are twice the number of stam weapons than magicka weapons, but when you look at all skills in the game, there's still a large discrepancy between magicka and stam skills. I curious on you thoughts.

Unmorphed Class Skills:
Total Skills: 75
Magicka Skills: 72 (96%)
Stamina Skills: 1 (~1%)
Other Skills: 2 (~3%)

Total Class Skills (Morphed and Unmorphed):
Total Skills: 225
Magicka Skills: 199 (~88%)
Stamina Skills: 18 (~8%)
Other Skills: 7 (~3%)

All in game Skills (Morphed and Unmorphed):
Total Skills: 426
Magicka Skills: 280 (~66%)
Stamina Skills: 130 (~31%)
Other Skills: 16 (~4%)

That's wrong. You are counting magicka skills as if you have access to all 280 magicka skills, when in fact you use like 1/5 of them.

Count them again per class and maybe I support your claim, but putting all magicka skills in the same bag is wrong. I whish I could use cloak or BJB on my mDK

Check my other post in the link above. I have them broken down by class. I actually have each skill line broken down.

And you forget in the case of stamina you need just to change weapons to have access to 4 unique skill lines, while in the case of Magicka you are screwed from the beggining?

If you take magicka morphs and give them to stamina in a 1:1 proportion the only thing you will make is to make stamina more appealing than magicka since stamina will have in practice more options than stamina.

We can debate about one or 2 skills, but this 1:1 crap is not healthy.

EpicRekkoning

Xvorg wrote: »

And you forget in the case of stamina you need just to change weapons to have access to 4 unique skill lines, while in the case of Magicka you are screwed from the beggining?

That's a fair point. Don't get me wrong, I don't want a 1:1 ratio with classes. Honestly, I think each class could use 2-5 stam skills to balance some identity issues, but that's my own opinion.

I do appreciate you're input. I think ZOS needs to hear both sides.

Sleep724

Joy_Division wrote: »

As far as why aren't there more stamina damage skills on Sorcerers and Dragonknights and why don't stamina-based templars get more from their class, that's something we reps have asked ZoS ever since the program came into effect (about one year ago). And every time, ZOS gives us the same reason: they have limited resources to make changes and according to their data, they would serve more of customer base releasing new content and addressing issues that effect all players.

Note: I do not agree with their assessment. In my opinion, the issue of stamina-identity for at least three of the classes has been longstanding - going past 4 years now - and is long overdue.

Why do they still have limited resources if this games player base supposedly continues to grow? The EU server being expanded to accommodate the influx of new players as a more recent example. While I love this game, the company just sounds like the typical maximize profits and sacrifice quality to maybe fix later but probably not type of corporation. You were supposed to be the chosen one Zos.

That is good insight into their mind set however. Keep pushing newer content to draw in newer players i.e. quantity over quality, maybe even if the Devs would prefer to upgrade older classes and content but just can't.

ShadowKyuubi

Xvorg wrote: »

EpicRekkoning wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

EpicRekkoning wrote: »

Prior to update 22, I looked into all skills in the game to see the actual discrepancy in stam and magicka skills. Below is a summary of what I found. Do you (reps) know why ZOS is so heavy on magicka skills for classes? I know some argue it's because there are twice the number of stam weapons than magicka weapons, but when you look at all skills in the game, there's still a large discrepancy between magicka and stam skills. I curious on you thoughts.

Unmorphed Class Skills:
Total Skills: 75
Magicka Skills: 72 (96%)
Stamina Skills: 1 (~1%)
Other Skills: 2 (~3%)

Total Class Skills (Morphed and Unmorphed):
Total Skills: 225
Magicka Skills: 199 (~88%)
Stamina Skills: 18 (~8%)
Other Skills: 7 (~3%)

All in game Skills (Morphed and Unmorphed):
Total Skills: 426
Magicka Skills: 280 (~66%)
Stamina Skills: 130 (~31%)
Other Skills: 16 (~4%)

That's wrong. You are counting magicka skills as if you have access to all 280 magicka skills, when in fact you use like 1/5 of them.

Count them again per class and maybe I support your claim, but putting all magicka skills in the same bag is wrong. I whish I could use cloak or BJB on my mDK

Check my other post in the link above. I have them broken down by class. I actually have each skill line broken down.

And you forget in the case of stamina you need just to change weapons to have access to 4 unique skill lines, while in the case of Magicka you are screwed from the beggining?

If you take magicka morphs and give them to stamina in a 1:1 proportion the only thing you will make is to make stamina more appealing than magicka since stamina will have in practice more options than stamina.

We can debate about one or 2 skills, but this 1:1 crap is not healthy.

We don't want a 1:1 ratio, most people of the three classes just want a stamina class-based spammable, that is reliable.

Luckylancer

Magicka is useless to stam chracters without any reason to spen magcika. So you cant call temp cleanse, warden frost armor, dk armor, nb cloak magcika. They are for boht stams and mags.

Stam skills are useless for mags but mag skills can be usefull for stams. And game desşgned this way too.

Stams are all 1 big class with 4 weapon skill lines. Class skills and passives give them disntinct flavors. Mag classes have to relly on class skills for nearly everthing.

Some skills can be turned in to stam morp but not all classes need that. Stamsorc and stamplar can have some help.

GrumpyDuckling

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344207/87-of-class-skills-are-magicka-131-vs-stamina-19-is-this-balanced/p1

^It's an older thread, but many of the issues/discussions are still relevant.

EpicRekkoning

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/344207/87-of-class-skills-are-magicka-131-vs-stamina-19-is-this-balanced/p1

^It's an older thread, but many of the issues/discussions are still relevant.

Thanks for sharing this thread.

Ragnarock41

Luckylancer wrote: »

Magicka is useless to stam chracters without any reason to spen magcika. So you cant call temp cleanse, warden frost armor, dk armor, nb cloak magcika. They are for boht stams and mags.

Stam skills are useless for mags but mag skills can be usefull for stams. And game desşgned this way too.

Stams are all 1 big class with 4 weapon skill lines. Class skills and passives give them disntinct flavors. Mag classes have to relly on class skills for nearly everthing.

Some skills can be turned in to stam morp but not all classes need that. Stamsorc and stamplar can have some help.

Spiked armor is more of a neccessity since it does not scale from stamina. Comparing it to cloak or cleanse is a mistake for your case. Speaking of which, If stamina is supposed to use magicka for utility skills(and yes, they are), why aren't those magicka utility skills designed for their use aswell in the first place?

Why is there no spiked armor morph that deals physical damage? If its supposed to be utility meant for both stam and magicka, why does it lack a stamina scaling counterpart? Your ''theory'' still doesn't explain the lack of love and care for stamina, and how they do the BARE MINIMUM for us.

(and when its designing a new class they make sure the stamina counterpart has all the tools it needs. I'm baffled at the fact that you can shamelessly compare stamden, stamnecro , stamblade, to the other unfortunate trio.)

Another example is the recent streak change. It JUST started scaling from stamina, that should have been there from day 1 if they had stamina in mind when designing it.