Dizzy Swing - The Past, the Present and the Future

alext89

Cries in medium armor stamina dk, 2h and bow

Davadin

Syhae wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Syhae wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Carve seems good now just use that.

It has no single target application. It also isn't a stun. So it can't really replace dizzy swing.

it hits a single target just the same, and it bleeds...

...like.. .BLEEDS....

and also hits actually pretty hard.

What i can swipe with Carve in 1 sec gives me a lot more damage than DS can ever hope, and it hits more than one, and it bleeds you for 10 sec.......

i'm serious. leave DS rest in peace and try Carve.

It has lost its bleed. So its relevancy for single target is even less than it was.
It does however excel at AoE cleaving, especially with Master 2h.
The skill was designed to be an AoE, as a result it does less damage than single target skills.

...I've "tried" carve before...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6002290/#Comment_6002290




it's there with Carve morph.

Have u tried it in PTS?


Yes i know it's designed to be AoE, but it's a spammable 9k+ damage...... what can you say about Dizzying?

I'm just saying, man.

Davadin

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Syhae wrote: »

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Carve seems good now just use that.

It has no single target application. It also isn't a stun. So it can't really replace dizzy swing.

it hits a single target just the same, and it bleeds...

...like.. .BLEEDS....

and also hits actually pretty hard.

What i can swipe with Carve in 1 sec gives me a lot more damage than DS can ever hope, and it hits more than one, and it bleeds you for 10 sec.......

i'm serious. leave DS rest in peace and try Carve.

Or combo the two together. Dizzy still hits hard and is faster so you should get off a combo of carve and dizzy easy, especially if a target is stunned. Dizzy is still a good ability to use.

i'd rather do Carve + Reverse Strike/morphs...

Syhae

Quote:
Yes i know it's designed to be AoE, but it's a spammable 9k+ damage...... what can you say about Dizzying?


That tool tip/damage gets heftily cut in PvP, then even more so by any additional resistances, impen, protection sources, major evasion.

What you'll be left with generally is a skill that will hit 1 guy for 3k maybe on its own, without a bleed, just that skill.

You'd be better off slotting heroic slash which does more damage, maims, gives you heroism and also grants you access to reverb as a stun which youre still missing if you drop dizzy for brawl.

This is what I was discussing with my original post. The reason to run anything but SnB is diminished.

I've used both skills extensively, both snb and 2h play style as well. If I thought the nerf was no big deal I would not have made this post. But with these proposed changes 2h's relevancy in ESO PvP will be tied strictly to only AoE brawler with master 2h and forward momentum/rally buff.

Davadin

i just spent a couple minutes on a dummy with my PvP gear.

all i do is spam Dizzying swing with LA weave, and a set of heavy attacks when i'm out of stamina, then back at it.


11k DPS.

then i spam Rapid Strike with LA weave, and again heavies to recharge.

15k DPS.


just FYI.

Feanor

All we love the skill for, is a mighty 1 hit with a cc

That’s the point though. ZOS doesn’t want CC skills to do notable damage like in the past.

Zacuel

I'm a stamdk who tried to make dizzy swing work but failed miserably as everyone wiggled in and out of range.

So for me it was more risk than reward. Using reverb and heroic has been a lot better.

Don't worry about spamming me with l2p. I already know. ;D

Sorry to those affected by the changes.

Davadin

Davadin wrote: »

i just spent a couple minutes on a dummy with my PvP gear.

all i do is spam Dizzying swing with LA weave, and a set of heavy attacks when i'm out of stamina, then back at it.


11k DPS.

then i spam Rapid Strike with LA weave, and again heavies to recharge.

15k DPS.


just FYI.

also, last night, Dizzying Swing from stealth hits like 45k on an NPC....... consistently.


what's going on there?

yes, i'm 1-shotting all bad kitty in PTS.......


ps: my DS tooltip is 11k. i don't know how it hits 44-45k, which is 4x the amount from stealth.

kookster

usmcjdking wrote: »

Honestly, you could make this skill straight up unblockable and it might be balanced.

As a dizzy swing user, that would be WAAAY too strong. Especially against warden burst and soon to be necro burst if they use dizzy.

Abyssmol

Syhae wrote: »

Dizzy Swing has a long history in ESO's pvp scene. I was disappointed to read about its change with Elsweyr's PTS, but even more disappointed to see how little reaction this skill is getting now.
To understand what position this skill is in now, we must examine its purpose, how it was used in the past and where it's still applied now to further understand why the proposed changes to Dizzy Swing will further kill the skills usefulness and solidify stamina to exclusively relying on Sword and Board Reverberating Stun as their main reliable CC.

Dizzy Swing is designed around hitting once, and hitting HARD. The skill leaves the caster highly vulnerable, as they have to be in melee range and enter a cast time that can be easily dodged and easily blocked. It has existing counterplay. The skill was a very high risk, very high reward play style that allowed players to maximize that play style of raw damage. This skill was widely viable for a long time during this ESO's lifetime, between Stamina Dragonknight Wrecking Blow into Leap combo, Stamina Sorcerer's high damage amping the damage of Dizzy Swing, Stamina Templar Roundhouse, to Stamina Wardens Dizzy, Shalks, Dawnbreaker combo. This skill rewarded leaving yourself open with a high burst window if the skill was successful. This is vastly different from the meta that exists now among stamina.

Between the rise of player HP, player resistances in general and the rise in the effectiveness of debuffs and DoT effects, Dizzy Swing has been left in the dust compared to what it once was and what other play styles exist for Stamina. The reasons to run dizzy swing over sword and board or duel wield already leave you to wonder why even slot the skill. It may average 4-6k damage against most armored PvPers that know how to properly build, but the risk for that little damage does not justify using it now for anything but killing players that do not know anything about the game or how to build their characters for PvP.

The changes announced in Elsweyr will devastate the Dizzy Swing play style and remove any reason to slot this skill over reverb and heroic slash for Stamina. With a damage nerf and an attempt to reconcile this by making the animation slightly faster, a skill that already does lack luster damage now does atrocious damage compared to what it once was.
The greatest travesty however is the fact that it will kill this style of play that revolves around pure, raw burst damage. A skill once designed to promote a high risk, high reward play style suddenly has no reward, but all the risk as before. A play style different from most of what Stamina is, and is slowly being forced into becoming a play style that revolves around bleeds and defile to whittle down opponents resources as the only viable option.

To Zenimax- Please re think your intentions with this skill, look at its past uses, what it was: A skill that promoted both timing burst, landing combos, leaving yourself vulnerable while also promoting enemies to counter the skill either by blocking or dodging it.
Don't make Dizzy Swing into the next Rapid Strikes.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, any opinions or insights would be appreciated.

Ocelot9x

OP Is absolutely on point. When they changed empower they killed wrecking blow, now with this uncalled “buff” it will make no sense slotting dizzying too. I feel the pain of my stamsorc brothers

Demra

Ocelot9x wrote: »

OP Is absolutely on point. When they changed empower they killed wrecking blow, now with this uncalled “buff” it will make no sense slotting dizzying too. I feel the pain of my stamsorc brothers

Yeah in the past year or more every update took something from my stam sorc character. 3rd bar, sustain, execute, dark deal sustain to the point i have to double slot bound armament skill. I use today 5 less skills than i did a year ago and what i have left will be useless now. This will be my last patch i think.

Burtan

I guess zos dont want any variety in this game since every decent player will now be using SnB combos and nothing else. This change is absolutely horrific. The barely noticeable decreased cast time does not make up for the 14% dmg decrease. This skill cannot be spammed on anything other than mobs or PvE bosses even with the cast time reduction making the reasoning for the change irrelevant.

Make wrecking blow instant cast with less damage.

Leave uppercut how it is but make casting more reliable.

Stop. Killing. Diversity.

Trian94

I agree with and support this post.

Davadin

guys, are we gonna ignore the fact Dizzying hits at 400% when hitting from stealth? What is that?

I'm 1-shoting NPC, but even with the battle buff in Cyrodiil, I'm pretty sure it's still a game changer when I can 2-shot somebody....

This is only on PTS, I don't think I can do this in PROD. maybe i have different gears? i dont think so. and also no Expert Hunter slotted...

Dracane

I don't understand why they nerfed the damage of this ability. Reducing the casttime by such a tiny amount, doesn't justify a 14% damage nerf, if a nerf at all. Did anyone really complain about Dizzying swing ?

Only Stamina Wardens are deadly with it.

Ragnarock41

I kinda miss the old wrecking blow into leap days. A shame risk&reward is not a thing anymore in this game. Build 7k weapon damage and people still won't die to the good old wb+leap. Why would they? With 30k hp even on medium builds

alext89 wrote: »

Cries in medium armor stamina dk, 2h and bow

Don't worry, All we have to do is find a time machine.

Ocelot9x

Davadin wrote: »

guys, are we gonna ignore the fact Dizzying hits at 400% when hitting from stealth? What is that?

I'm 1-shoting NPC, but even with the battle buff in Cyrodiil, I'm pretty sure it's still a game changer when I can 2-shot somebody....

This is only on PTS, I don't think I can do this in PROD. maybe i have different gears? i dont think so. and also no Expert Hunter slotted...

Maybe you have found a bug, send a ticket

Crixus8000

Very well said.

I have used dizzy since I started. It can be frustrating to use a lot of the time, the main 2 being in snare heavy fights (sadly the entire meta now) and around towers with little room to move, as both make the annoying counterplay of simply walking into you much more possible.

Still, it's sad the skill is getting nerfed, I will be changing to snb next patch for my stamsorc since I have basically no other choice now.

LordTareq

Ability is too good of a ganking tool for stamblades on live. Spec for allout damage -> wreckingblow into light attack into onslaught and you insta-kill everyone with less than 27k health in pvp.

manny254

I agree with your overall feelings and analysis of how this skill has issues, but I personally disagree about the PTS changes to the skill being overall negative.

From what I have personally tested I have found that dizzying feels like a better skill on PTS than it is on live. Landing the skill feels much easier and this is due to two reasons. The changes to GCDS make the skill just feel so much better and Race against time benefits the play style of Dizzying more than most play styles. That being said I do agree that the damage change was not needed on this skill, but even with that nerf I prefer using the skill on PTS over the live server.

In the end I do not think the skill is bad, but it does not fit into what is ideal in PVP right now. I think the devs would do best to focus on fixing the reasons the skill is less practical than other play styles. For example with the nerf to Surprise attack I don't think heroic slash even remotely fits into the current direction of balance. I doubt they will remove the debuff/buff on it for PVE reasons, but I would not be surprised if they greatly reduce the damage of heroic slash.

kollege14a5

Completly agree dizzy is easy to avoid and if you manage to land it, it should punish and hit hard.

Abyssmol

Which is the equivalent skill like Dizzing Swing, high risk high reward, high damage for a magicka templar?

Ocelot9x

Abyssmol wrote: »

Which is the equivalent skill like Dizzing Swing, high risk high reward, high damage for a magicka templar?

Dark flare, but you’re not using it cause you have better options (like sweeps)