Spider Synergy Nerf -

Azyle1

So I wonder, 58% damage reduction.

Does this kill the bow/bow build. As a "I'd prefer not to play mag" person, I was hoping this would survive so I can do vAS and vCR as a stam bow/bow.

Thoughts?

Toc de Malsvi

Azyle1 wrote: »

So I wonder, 58% damage reduction.

Does this kill the bow/bow build. As a "I'd prefer not to play mag" person, I was hoping this would survive so I can do vAS and vCR as a stam bow/bow.

Thoughts?

Currently I think the Snipe change already pretty much killed competitive Bow/Bow. This just added too it. I don't know that they changed the damage type though, so stam should still get slightly better scaling from CP I would think.

Olupajmibanan

I never liked being reliant on that synergy. The actual problem is, it received new scaling making it a potent synergy for petsorc. There are plenty of them and they will most likely steal the synergy from you.


From my newest 5.0.1. tests I can say that the synergy does too low dps to be worth run by healer or tank. So you will most likely have to have another bow/bow player in your group and you two will be providing spiders for each other. Furthemore bow/bow Necromancer is significantly stronger than any other bow/bow build. Trust me, the difference is easily noticeable. That being said, most good groups won't invite you as a bow/bow build unless you are Necromancer.

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

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Azyle1 wrote: »

So I wonder, 58% damage reduction.

Does this kill the bow/bow build. As a "I'd prefer not to play mag" person, I was hoping this would survive so I can do vAS and vCR as a stam bow/bow.

Thoughts?

Currently I think the Snipe change already pretty much killed competitive Bow/Bow. This just added too it. I don't know that they changed the damage type though, so stam should still get slightly better scaling from CP I would think.

Snipe nerf made Bow/Bow Necro even stronger in comparison with other classes.

Azyle1

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I never liked being reliant on that synergy. The actual problem is, it received new scaling making it a potent synergy for petsorc. There are plenty of them and they will most likely steal the synergy from you.


From my newest 5.0.1. tests I can say that the synergy does too low dps to be worth run by healer or tank. So you will most likely have to have another bow/bow player in your group and you two will be providing spiders for each other. Furthemore bow/bow Necromancer is significantly stronger than any other bow/bow build. Trust me, the difference is easily noticeable. That being said, most good groups won't invite you as a bow/bow build unless you are Necromancer.

So you are thinking Necros may make OK Bow/bow for PVE, eh?

Olupajmibanan

Azyle1 wrote: »

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Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I never liked being reliant on that synergy. The actual problem is, it received new scaling making it a potent synergy for petsorc. There are plenty of them and they will most likely steal the synergy from you.


From my newest 5.0.1. tests I can say that the synergy does too low dps to be worth run by healer or tank. So you will most likely have to have another bow/bow player in your group and you two will be providing spiders for each other. Furthemore bow/bow Necromancer is significantly stronger than any other bow/bow build. Trust me, the difference is easily noticeable. That being said, most good groups won't invite you as a bow/bow build unless you are Necromancer.

So you are thinking Necros may make OK Bow/bow for PVE, eh?

Well yes. What makes them absolutely great is that Necro is not reliant on Snipe. What I mean, on Necro you won't loose that much by staying in front of healer (and not getting maximum of the Long Shots passive) and this is veeery convenient.

MartiniDaniels

Weird game, tanks with bow backbar, necromancers with bow/bow, while native "ranger" classes will be sub-optimal in bow/bow scenario.

Azyle1

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

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Azyle1 wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I never liked being reliant on that synergy. The actual problem is, it received new scaling making it a potent synergy for petsorc. There are plenty of them and they will most likely steal the synergy from you.


From my newest 5.0.1. tests I can say that the synergy does too low dps to be worth run by healer or tank. So you will most likely have to have another bow/bow player in your group and you two will be providing spiders for each other. Furthemore bow/bow Necromancer is significantly stronger than any other bow/bow build. Trust me, the difference is easily noticeable. That being said, most good groups won't invite you as a bow/bow build unless you are Necromancer.

So you are thinking Necros may make OK Bow/bow for PVE, eh?

Well yes. What makes them absolutely great is that Necro is not reliant on Snipe. What I mean, on Necro you won't loose that much by staying in front of healer (and not getting maximum of the Long Shots passive) and this is veeery convenient.

While I am excited that it may be viable.. I am not sure I am catching what you are dropping.

Gilvoth

as bow, we need those spiders and the synergy,
i hope this is reversed and allowed to be put back.

sneakymitchell

Man I see quite of but of builds for bow/bow.
But you rarely see dw/two h builds or dw/dw and vise versa for 2h. Just makes you think that range is pretty powerful. Compared to melee range counterpart

DoonerSeraph

sneakymitchell wrote: »

Man I see quite of but of builds for bow/bow.
But you rarely see dw/two h builds or dw/dw and vise versa for 2h. Just makes you think that range is pretty powerful. Compared to melee range counterpart

This is also heavily impacted by enchants, on Bow you can have a full power weapon damage glyph on Endless Hail with 100% uptime, 2h has no way of triggering an enchantment from the backbar, and dual wield got their enchantments cut in half, with no way of bundling them together to proc with blade cloak, so the only viable backbar is bow, basically.

sneakymitchell

DoonerSeraph wrote: »

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sneakymitchell wrote: »

Man I see quite of but of builds for bow/bow.
But you rarely see dw/two h builds or dw/dw and vise versa for 2h. Just makes you think that range is pretty powerful. Compared to melee range counterpart

This is also heavily impacted by enchants, on Bow you can have a full power weapon damage glyph on Endless Hail with 100% uptime, 2h has no way of triggering an enchantment from the backbar, and dual wield got their enchantments cut in half, with no way of bundling them together to proc with blade cloak, so the only viable backbar is bow, basically.

Yea that’s the issue. Use to have it where you can proc enchants on any DoT weapon skill. But pretty much it messed up pvp that Stam builds were bursty with those enchants.

satanio

Azyle1 wrote: »

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Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I never liked being reliant on that synergy. The actual problem is, it received new scaling making it a potent synergy for petsorc. There are plenty of them and they will most likely steal the synergy from you.


From my newest 5.0.1. tests I can say that the synergy does too low dps to be worth run by healer or tank. So you will most likely have to have another bow/bow player in your group and you two will be providing spiders for each other. Furthemore bow/bow Necromancer is significantly stronger than any other bow/bow build. Trust me, the difference is easily noticeable. That being said, most good groups won't invite you as a bow/bow build unless you are Necromancer.

So you are thinking Necros may make OK Bow/bow for PVE, eh?

Well yes. What makes them absolutely great is that Necro is not reliant on Snipe. What I mean, on Necro you won't loose that much by staying in front of healer (and not getting maximum of the Long Shots passive) and this is veeery convenient.

While I am excited that it may be viable.. I am not sure I am catching what you are dropping.

If you've played archer and wanted to have 12% inc dmg from passive Long Shot, you needed to stand 20+ m behind the boss to get it. So, you weren't getting minor berserk from healers and you needed to slot Slimecraw or be warden/nightblade. I think that's what he meant by that.

Necroarcher is fun, could be played with snipe or venom skull as pseudospammable (you just really want to cast Blighted Blastbones everytime you can).
Rotation can be super primitive or kinda dynamic, best thing is that necroarcher got everything that it needed to get to meet the requirements for the archer archetype.

Spider nerf is sad, but it got a buff (scaling with SD/WD) for uncoordinated groups where people use synergies just for the sake of using synergy (haha free 400 magicka lol).
Spiders made ~10k dps on Earthgore training dummy last week (necroarcher) and I didn't have time to test them properly right now. I guess It'll be much lower, but it'll still be free dps .

Olupajmibanan

Guys, I'll do some tests but I fear that after scaling change, the Spiders will do more dmg on a magicka petsorc than on any non-sorc bow/bow build. Petsorcs are ranged as well so it would be a loss of group dps if bow/bow build clicked the synergy instead of petsorc or bow/bow sorc with Daedric Prey.

SaintSubwayy

the shadow silk skill gave up to 15k DPS...the nerf was more then justified!

bow/bow builds already got into a tighter spot with the snipe nerf (which also was needed fo PVP)

the Bow/bow setup will still pull decent DPS, besides those 2 changes, but in Progress Raid, now other playstyles will take over again.

Juhasow

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

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Azyle1 wrote: »

So I wonder, 58% damage reduction.

Does this kill the bow/bow build. As a "I'd prefer not to play mag" person, I was hoping this would survive so I can do vAS and vCR as a stam bow/bow.

Thoughts?

Currently I think the Snipe change already pretty much killed competitive Bow/Bow. This just added too it. I don't know that they changed the damage type though, so stam should still get slightly better scaling from CP I would think.

Snipe change barely changes DPS of bow/bow setups. It's like 1-2% DPS loss in PvE rotation.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Weird game, tanks with bow backbar, necromancers with bow/bow, while native "ranger" classes will be sub-optimal in bow/bow scenario.

What class would you say is the ranger class? I say any class that slots a bow is a ranger.

Toc de Malsvi

satanio wrote: »

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Azyle1 wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I never liked being reliant on that synergy. The actual problem is, it received new scaling making it a potent synergy for petsorc. There are plenty of them and they will most likely steal the synergy from you.


From my newest 5.0.1. tests I can say that the synergy does too low dps to be worth run by healer or tank. So you will most likely have to have another bow/bow player in your group and you two will be providing spiders for each other. Furthemore bow/bow Necromancer is significantly stronger than any other bow/bow build. Trust me, the difference is easily noticeable. That being said, most good groups won't invite you as a bow/bow build unless you are Necromancer.

So you are thinking Necros may make OK Bow/bow for PVE, eh?

Well yes. What makes them absolutely great is that Necro is not reliant on Snipe. What I mean, on Necro you won't loose that much by staying in front of healer (and not getting maximum of the Long Shots passive) and this is veeery convenient.

While I am excited that it may be viable.. I am not sure I am catching what you are dropping.

If you've played archer and wanted to have 12% inc dmg from passive Long Shot, you needed to stand 20+ m behind the boss to get it. So, you weren't getting minor berserk from healers and you needed to slot Slimecraw or be warden/nightblade. I think that's what he meant by that.

Necroarcher is fun, could be played with snipe or venom skull as pseudospammable (you just really want to cast Blighted Blastbones everytime you can).
Rotation can be super primitive or kinda dynamic, best thing is that necroarcher got everything that it needed to get to meet the requirements for the archer archetype.

Spider nerf is sad, but it got a buff (scaling with SD/WD) for uncoordinated groups where people use synergies just for the sake of using synergy (haha free 400 magicka lol).
Spiders made ~10k dps on Earthgore training dummy last week (necroarcher) and I didn't have time to test them properly right now. I guess It'll be much lower, but it'll still be free dps .

Spider change was already made I believe. Friends of mine were claiming it was changed last week.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

. If you've played archer and wanted to have 12% inc dmg from passive Long Shot, you needed to stand 20+ m behind the boss to get it. So, you weren't getting minor berserk from healers and you needed to slot Slimecraw or be warden/nightblade. I think that's what he meant by that.

There is absolutely no reason to try to max out that passive, it only impacts bow skills, so you are much better off being in front of the healer to get that minor berzerk, as that buff impacts all your damage and then you don't need to worry about slimecraw or whatever.

satanio

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

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. If you've played archer and wanted to have 12% inc dmg from passive Long Shot, you needed to stand 20+ m behind the boss to get it. So, you weren't getting minor berserk from healers and you needed to slot Slimecraw or be warden/nightblade. I think that's what he meant by that.

There is absolutely no reason to try to max out that passive, it only impacts bow skills, so you are much better off being in front of the healer to get that minor berzerk, as that buff impacts all your damage and then you don't need to worry about slimecraw or whatever.

Depends of spammable maybe and skills used in rotation? if most of your dmg comes from bow abilities - fex DK bow/bow - rotation (hail, caltrops, injection - swap - acid spray, snipe till hail is going to fall off, acid spray - swap repeat) you should feel the difference when at max range. Unfortunately, being so far from the group is not that safe :P.

Anyways, I agree that you don't need Slimecraw, but bow/bow are limited in their choice for monster set. They can wear Stormfist or some combination of 1st set bonuses.
I've compared Necroarcher(skull spammable) with stormfist at 10m range vs Necroarcher(snipe spammable) at 20+ with Slimecraw (solo 3m. dummy) and it was pretty much the same.

Olupajmibanan

So, I've done necessary tests:

1. The spiders do most dmg on bow/bow stamsorc with Daedric prey. The second best dps is achieved on a petsorc.

So the priority for the synergy is:
Archer Stamsorc > Petsorc > other ranged specs

2. Tested on petsorc. I've brought down the target Iron Attronach alone, only Shadow Silk was provided by a friend. Daedric Prey had uptime of 92%. The spiders did 8k dps in total (Bite + Black Widow Poison + Shadow Silk). So in real trial scenario, 5-6k is easily achievable.

This brings me to a conclusion. Stamina DDs should include Shadow Silk in their rotations. That way, they can consistently provide the spider synergy for two group members. The stamDD will have lower dps but not that much because Shadow Silk ability does nice dmg (for comparison, it does more than Necromancer Venom Skull), but the lower dps will be greatly surpassed by two player clicking the spiders synergy.

In short, if stamDDs include Shadow Silk in their rotations, their specific DPS will be lower, but group dps will be noticeably higher.

Toc de Malsvi

Juhasow wrote: »

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Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

So I wonder, 58% damage reduction.

Does this kill the bow/bow build. As a "I'd prefer not to play mag" person, I was hoping this would survive so I can do vAS and vCR as a stam bow/bow.

Thoughts?

Currently I think the Snipe change already pretty much killed competitive Bow/Bow. This just added too it. I don't know that they changed the damage type though, so stam should still get slightly better scaling from CP I would think.

Snipe change barely changes DPS of bow/bow setups. It's like 1-2% DPS loss in PvE rotation.

I addressed your poor analysis in the other thread. It is a 2-3k dps loss, Bow/Bow was not competitive outside of Spider synergy before. Nerfing Snipe makes bow/bow even worse, nerfing Spider synergy while something I can at least agree with drops bow/bow even further. However the Snipe Nerf already drops bow out of the equation when talking maximum performance parses. Especially considering many fights melee can use the synergy without ever having to leave the bosses butt.