Suggestion: Increase Tel Var Stone loot

Taloros

Hi!

With the Elsweyr Patch, Imperial City will become its own campaign:

Imperial City is now its own Campaign. The doors in Cyrodiil have been shut down; to get into Imperial City, you simply use the Campaign selection menu. You’ll end up in the Sewers just as if you had entered from Cyrodiil.

This is likely to increase the population in Imperial City for two reasons:
- Instead of four or more instances, there will be only two.
- Currenty, travelling to the Imperial City is quite a hassle (apply for Cyrodil, then teleport to the nearest keep, then run/ride to the sewer entrance, i. e. three loading screens).

A lot of players will want to access the Imperial City for the PvE/quest content, which is quite enjoyable btw. Others will go there to fight each other or prey on PvE players. This will, as we all now, lead to grief and complaints.

So, I have a suggestion to solve this and want to put this up for discussion:

Limit the Tel Var gain from killing other player characters to the amount you currently carry.

Why? This will introduce a fairer risk/reward ratio. Currently, you can enter the Imperial City with 0 Tel Var stones and just prey on others. This carries no risk to loose anything, but all the potential to get a huge payout from others.

The influx of players is, in my opinion, a good opportunity to introduce this change, and will at least limit the potential for conflict without removing the PvP aspect. Want to prey on others? Then show the courage to risk some of your own Tel Var riches.

What do you think?

Qbiken

Nah

MentalxHammer

I think this is interesting, as a pvp boss farmer who Carrie's between 10-100k this would he a welcome change. At the same time with the increase in volume of IC players we need a rework of how tel var are earned, currently it is only possible to earn reasonable amounts of tv stones if the city is completely dead. With only 1 CP IC moving forward or will be impossible to earn a living as a pvp player.

NyassaV

I actually really like that idea

redspecter23

I've been saying something similar for a while. You want the reward? You have to risk a little bit. Gankers running around with zero telvar just looking to score big bother me, not because they are gankers, but because they aren't bringing anything to the fight for the opponents to win if they fail. They give up nothing and have everything to gain.

Alucardo

No, thank you. We already had the tel var gain reduced for killing a player. Too many restrictions makes things unfun, so let's just leave it be shall we.

KRBMMO

No.
This is the only PVE zone with any kind of edge to it. Regular zones are boring and not challenging. There are over 25 Zones to be safe and guaranteed that you can avoid death - and if you die there is no penalty at all.

Leave at least one zone where death has consequences.

Judas Helviaryn

I'm not against it, so long as the losing party loses up to, and including ALL of their stones if they're matched by the offender.

Alucardo

KRBMMO wrote: »

Leave at least one zone where death has consequences.

tbh this is what makes IC interesting and gets the adrenaline pumping. Imagine how I felt trying to port back to base quickly after this heist



That was after a 1v3 where I managed to kill 3 people wearing imperial physique during an IC event. If the OPs "risk vs reward" mechanic was in play I would have made 100 tel var from the first kill (which is what I had on me).
How is it fair that someone outnumbering me, carrying 10k+ stones only loses 100 upon death. Sounds flawed to me.

Taloros

KRBMMO wrote:

Leave at least one zone where death has consequences.

I'm not suggesting to remove Tel Var gain. Death will still have consequences - but limited to the amount your attacker "wagered".

I think it would still be as exciting, but for both sides. What fun is there in attacking others if you don't risk anything yourself?

Alucardo wrote: »

That was after a 1v3 where I managed to kill 3 people wearing imperial physique during an IC event. If the OPs "risk vs reward" mechanic was in play I would have made 100 tel var from the first kill (which is what I had on me).
How is it fair that someone outnumbering me, carrying 10k+ stones only loses 100 upon death. Sounds flawed to me.

Honest congratulations on the win - that shows considerable skill. But that aside: What was your risk in that situation? Why should you be able to win more (Tel Var) than you risked loosing? It seems you gained 40k Tel Var from your opponents, which is quite a windfall for you, and I see why you felt lucky about that. But it seems to me that you in fact avoided risk, not took it. You even ported out, avoiding the risk of them re-taking their stones. ;-)

Ramber

it doesnt and its not. Tel Vars are the biggest joke, 2 hours spent getting skyshards with friends while killing everything we could and we had less then 10k telvars when we were done. thats why no one farms them as showed by the 1 thing people can buy and sell with them... a runestone lol. Well 2 of them in this case.. it was glorious

Jeezye

Yeah and how in the world are players with no TV supposed to collect their stones if killing an enemy player will not grant them any?? Simply farm PvE until they reach a TV threshold that makes it worth killing players?

doesnt sound right to me

Emma_Overload

I don't think ZOS will go for this. It was like pulling teeth to get them to adjust the payout to 50/50.

Lapin_Logic

Alucardo wrote: »

KRBMMO wrote: »

Leave at least one zone where death has consequences.

tbh this is what makes IC interesting and gets the adrenaline pumping. Imagine how I felt trying to port back to base quickly after this heist



That was after a 1v3 where I managed to kill 3 people wearing imperial physique during an IC event. If the OPs "risk vs reward" mechanic was in play I would have made 100 tel var from the first kill (which is what I had on me).
How is it fair that someone outnumbering me, carrying 10k+ stones only loses 100 upon death. Sounds flawed to me.

..."I would have made 100 tel var".... then maybe you would have had to start your visit "with your adrenaline pumping" by taking 10k tel var out with you to wager against your opponent that you were the better man... unless you just want one of the other 25 care bear zones.

This is what the OP stated and you aggreed was most engaging, gambling Your tel var, not stealthing behind a PVE guy waiting for a lotto win or stealing candy from a baby

Narthalion

Alucardo wrote: »

That was after a 1v3 where I managed to kill 3 people wearing imperial physique during an IC event. If the OPs "risk vs reward" mechanic was in play I would have made 100 tel var from the first kill (which is what I had on me).
How is it fair that someone outnumbering me, carrying 10k+ stones only loses 100 upon death. Sounds flawed to me.

It's fair because you risked nothing.

You joined a high stakes poker game, didn't ante up, didn't wager anything more than a trip to a spawn point, and went home with the pot. How exactly is THAT fair?

Jeezye wrote: »

Yeah and how in the world are players with no TV supposed to collect their stones if killing an enemy player will not grant them any?? Simply farm PvE until they reach a TV threshold that makes it worth killing players?

doesnt sound right to me

Uh...the same way the people you're hunting got them? Sounds very right to me. If you can rob me of the proceeds of an hour of farming, I should likewise be rewarded if I win. But I won't, because you're not risking anything. THAT doesn't sound right to me.

KRBMMO wrote: »

No.
This is the only PVE zone with any kind of edge to it. Regular zones are boring and not challenging. There are over 25 Zones to be safe and guaranteed that you can avoid death - and if you die there is no penalty at all.

Leave at least one zone where death has consequences.

Yeah, and if you try to gank someone and lose, shouldn't YOUR death have consequences? If you went out with no stones, losing cost you nothing.


I think OP's idea is excellent and I'm kind of amazed at how condescending the naysayers are in this thread. Or just flat out don't seem to get what's being proposed.

Limiting your winnings by how much you've wagered is the opposite of turning IC into a "carebear" zone. As it is now, nearly all the risk is carried by people farming mobs for stones. In OP's system, failure would now cost you as well. Risk is evened out between players, not removed.

Sounds to me like you tough talkers are fine with risk, but only when it's someone else taking a risk. Ask you to put some chips on the table and suddenly it's not so fun anymore?

labambao

TV drop is ok. But they can change it to 100% ofc.
You farm some stones(gold) in a pvp zone?
Get ready someone can kill you for reward.
If you win - your reward that you don't lose your stones. Don't like to lose high amount of stones? Buy sigil and put them to bank every 30k.
Another day another goldseller cry that he get ganked and lose his money.

Narthalion

labambao wrote: »

TV drop is ok. But they can change it to 100% ofc.
You farm some stones(gold) in a pvp zone?
Get ready someone can kill you for reward.
If you win - your reward that you don't lose your stones. Don't like to lose high amount of stones? Buy sigil and put them to bank every 30k.
Another day another goldseller cry that he get ganked and lose his money.

Another tough guy too scared to risk anything himself.

pieratsos

Alucardo wrote: »

No, thank you. We already had the tel var gain reduced for killing a player. Too many restrictions makes things unfun, so let's just leave it be shall we.

Well technically this idea increases the amount you get from a player and you can potentially get everything they have. The only catch is to risk what you have urself instead of playing a zero risk huge reward game.

pieratsos

Alucardo wrote: »

KRBMMO wrote: »

Leave at least one zone where death has consequences.

tbh this is what makes IC interesting and gets the adrenaline pumping. Imagine how I felt trying to port back to base quickly after this heist



That was after a 1v3 where I managed to kill 3 people wearing imperial physique during an IC event. If the OPs "risk vs reward" mechanic was in play I would have made 100 tel var from the first kill (which is what I had on me).
How is it fair that someone outnumbering me, carrying 10k+ stones only loses 100 upon death. Sounds flawed to me.

But you are the one who chose to carry 100 stones with you. Not them.

Mayrael

I actually like this idea a lot! This would bring more incentive to carry more tvs. Right now the only ones who carry a lot Tel Vars are the ones that farm them. PvPers dump them after each bigger win. This would force also gankers to carry more telvars meaning there would be also a way to take back at least some of them when faced again with such player. Yes you have my voice, eventhough I was ganking people in IC, I like this idea a lot. It would bring a lot of fair play.
I can understand it's frustrating to lose 10k Tel Vars because of ganker, but when you find him again and kill him, he drops 50 telvars, that's why this change is needed.

Ahzek

It is weird to see people argue against the OP claiming it would ruin the „risk/reward“ dynamic if IC, when it would actually only add to it.

Qbiken

While the current system isn´t perfect, it´s alot better than it used to be. If I remember correctly you used to lose 90% of your tel-var if you died to a player, and 50% if you got killed by a NPC. If someone knows the exact % from the old days feel free to correct. As it stands now you lose 50% of your telvar no matter how you die. If one player attacks you he gets 50% of what you currently have. If more than one person attacks you and you die, they equally share the 50% of what you had.

Before I go into detail on why this idea has many flawls, I do want to point out that farming telvar is not nearly as painful and time consuming as people makes it to be. Solo killing a district boss while owning all districts will give you roughly 14,7k telvar (assuming you have the x4 telvar multiplier). Killing a boss takes around 5-10 minutes depending on what build you´re running. If you can farm without too much interference, 100k telvar/hour is not even difficult to make. Translating this to gold you´ll sit at 150-180k gold/hour (depending on what you spend your telvar on). I generally don´t have to invest alot of effort to make a huge profit when farming telvar. If you compare gold/hour, farming bosses is going to net you more profit than ganking the ones farming.

So what are the flaws of this idea?

a) You need to remove the hard cap on how much telvar you can lose

As I wrote earlier in my post, the amount of telvar you get from killing a player is distributed equally between the people who managed to damage the player. If only 1 person attacked, he alone will get 50% of the telvar stones the player lost. If 5 people damage the same person, those 5 people will share equally between those 50%. (the same system works when attack district bosses, you only need to simply light attack a boss to get the same share as someone who did the majority of the damage).

If OP´s idea want to work, you need to remove any hard-cap (currently 50%) of how much tel-var you can lose at once. Or otherwise there´s less risk for the one farming than the ones trying to kill the telvar farmers.

Why is that? Here´s a scenario:
OP farms district bosses in IC. Let´s say you´ve been farming for a bit and manage to get 30k tel-var. Suddenly you face a group of 4 people running Imperial Physique where each and one of them has 15k telvar on them. Since OP´s idea was implemented, they´re forced to carry more telvar if they want to earn more. In this scenario OP doesn´t manage to stay alive against these 4 players. With the old system, these players would´ve gotten 3750 telvar/each and you would´ve lost 15k. But what happens with the new system? Since they´re carrying more telvar stones, they also expect to get bigger rewards. Sound fair, right?. So these players can only earn up to 15k telvar from a kill, but since they´re 4 people that killed you, it needs to be equally distributed (aka 7500 telvar/each) meaning you´ll lose all your telvar.

Another scenario that can appear is when people are carrying the same or similar amount of telvar stones. If I carry 30k telvar and manage to kill OP that also carries 30k telvar I expect to be rewarded proportionally (aka I get 30k telvar). If there´s a hard cap on how much I can earn (lets say 50%) there´s more risk for me trying to kill OP than vice versa.

TL:DR = There will be issues in how much telvar you gain from killing a player with multiple attackers and there won´t be an equall risk vs reward unless the cap on how much telvar you can lose is removed.

Narthalion

Qbiken wrote: »

TL:DR = There will be issues in how much telvar you gain from killing a player with multiple attackers and there won´t be an equall risk vs reward unless the cap on how much telvar you can lose is removed.

Your logic seems to hinge on the idea that the rewards for gankers should get bigger, and that's not the case. Carrying telvar does not entitle you to bigger payoffs than you would receive in the current system. You carry telvar as your "wager" that you can beat the other guy. If you're wrong, you lose some of what you bet and the other guy is rewarded. There's no requirement to remove the 50% cap to implement this idea.

Removing the cap would increase the stakes though, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Using the OP's system, and no cap, you could get a lot more telvar out of someone, but only if you took an equal risk by carrying a lot of telvar yourself. The downside of this is that you might find fewer people are willing to take such a risk, and finding a fight in IC becomes even harder. More incentive might be needed to bring people in. But that's a separate conversation really. The OP's idea works either way.

Trinity_Is_My_Name

Hmmm....sounds like a good idea.

Morgul667

No thanks

Let us enjoy our one area where there is actually some risk / reward system

Qbiken

Narthalion wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

TL:DR = There will be issues in how much telvar you gain from killing a player with multiple attackers and there won´t be an equall risk vs reward unless the cap on how much telvar you can lose is removed.

Your logic seems to hinge on the idea that the rewards for gankers should get bigger, and that's not the case. Carrying telvar does not entitle you to bigger payoffs than you would receive in the current system. You carry telvar as your "wager" that you can beat the other guy. If you're wrong, you lose some of what you bet and the other guy is rewarded. There's no requirement to remove the 50% cap to implement this idea.

Removing the cap would increase the stakes though, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Using the OP's system, and no cap, you could get a lot more telvar out of someone, but only if you took an equal risk by carrying a lot of telvar yourself. The downside of this is that you might find fewer people are willing to take such a risk, and finding a fight in IC becomes even harder. More incentive might be needed to bring people in. But that's a separate conversation really. The OP's idea works either way.

His idea makes it significantly easier for people who want to keep their telvar stones because they feel entitled to keep them just because they spend a few hours farming them. You´re not entitled to keep them just because you farmed them, people need to get that idea out of their heads (and this comes from someone who spends his majority of PvP time in IC farming telvar).

You as a telvar farmer also need to wager how much telvar is "safe" to carry around, that´s what makes it interesting. With this system I can just grab 100k telvar and never have to worry about losing more than a few K because it´s highly unlikely that someone will show up with enough telvar to make me lose more than half of it (if you implement so you can´t earn more telvar than you carry from killing players). It benefits me as a telvar farmer significantly more than those who try to kill me. There´s your imbalance.

Narthalion

Morgul667 wrote: »

His idea makes it significantly easier for people who want to keep their telvar stones because they feel entitled to keep them just because they spend a few hours farming them. You´re not entitled to keep them just because you farmed them, people need to get that idea out of their heads (and this comes from someone who spends his majority of PvP time in IC farming telvar).

You as a telvar farmer also need to wager how much telvar is "safe" to carry around, that´s what makes it interesting. With this system I can just grab 100k telvar and never have to worry about losing more than a few K because it´s highly unlikely that someone will show up with enough telvar to make me lose more than half of it (if you implement so you can´t earn more telvar than you carry from killing players). It benefits me as a telvar farmer significantly more than those who try to kill me. There´s your imbalance.

That's not an imbalance. You would need to get to 100k without getting killed by someone. Meaning, you either played it very safe and spent hours and hours to get there, or you defeated all those who tried to kill you for the stones.

Futher, if your 4 players with 15k each (from your example) came and killed you while you had 100k on you, they'd each get 12.5k (50k/4). This is less than the 15k they're carrying so they get the full payout. You've lost 50k stones, as you would in the current system.

The only entitlement here is people who think they can show up, find you in 5 minutes, and make off with 50k of your stones when they themselves went into the fight with nothing. There's your imbalance: you took all the risk, and they took none. That's the whole point. You wagered half of 100k, they wagered...nothing.

It only benefits you as a farmer if the gankers are too chicken to carry stones with them.

Narthalion

Morgul667 wrote: »

No thanks

Let us enjoy our one area where there is actually some risk / reward system

Which the OP's idea rebalances but preserves. It's still risk/reward. Not sure what's giving you the impression that it isn't.

HowlKimchi

Taloros wrote: »

This will introduce a fairer risk/reward ratio. Currently, you can enter the Imperial City with 0 Tel Var stones and just prey on others.

You mean, I shouldn't be rewarded for doing pvp in a pvp area??

Narthalion

HaruKamui wrote: »

Taloros wrote: »

This will introduce a fairer risk/reward ratio. Currently, you can enter the Imperial City with 0 Tel Var stones and just prey on others.

You mean, I shouldn't be rewarded for doing pvp in a pvp area??

Well if you're too scared of losing stones to carry any, then you'll just have to settle for alliance points.

Not sure why I'm defending this so hard, it's not even my idea. I'm just kinda baffled at the objections. Apparently expecting a ganker to suffer consequences when they lose is a game-breaking heresy.

HowlKimchi

Narthalion wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

Taloros wrote: »

This will introduce a fairer risk/reward ratio. Currently, you can enter the Imperial City with 0 Tel Var stones and just prey on others.

You mean, I shouldn't be rewarded for doing pvp in a pvp area??

Well if you're too scared of losing stones to carry any, then you'll just have to settle for alliance points.

Not sure why I'm defending this so hard, it's not even my idea. I'm just kinda baffled at the objections. Apparently expecting a ganker to suffer consequences when they lose is a game-breaking heresy.

Yep because it encourages turtling on very defensive builds. If this goes through, everyone and their mothers would be running very high health/resistance builds and sticking with their buddies. Everyone is carrying a lot of telvar, but no one is dying.

If someone even tries to earn telvar by killing other players, he'll build offensive but will be much more at risk of losing his telvars because he now has to carry a lot on his build that's relatively fragiler.

A better solution IMO of adding risk to the ganker/player who successfully kills his prey would be that he will be marked on the map/compass of his victim, and he won't be able to use the teleport to base item for a while (he will have to go through the sewers). This also makes 2 of each district a soft "home" district for each faction, because they are close to their sewer bases. It also introduces a much better "revenge" mechanic similar to other PK games i've played.