Should Draining Shot be way more expensive?

Maulkin

I've been dusting off my StamPlar recently, getting him to some BGs and whatnot. I've built a pretty standard 2h/Bow build with Bone Pirate-Spriggan-BloodSpawn and MasterBow in 6m/1h and I was thinking of what stun to use besides DBoS. I ruled out Dizzy cause I don't really like how tricky it can be to land against someone who knows how to avoid it. That left me with two options: Javelin and Draining Shot.

I put both of them on my bar and side by side to compare:



The difference in damage is minuscule, it's 183 tooltip damage in favour of Javelin which after Battle Spirit and armour mitigation is basically nothing. But the big differences are:

1. Cost. Javelin 2892 vs Draining Shot 2050
2. Knockback vs Knockback + Stun
3. Heal. Draining Shot has a whopping 7.7k tooltip heal when then stun ends, while Javelin has nothing

..all in favour of Draining Shot. This is way too one sided, never an easier decision to make.

Then I proceeded to compare the Draining Shot cost with spammable damage skills. It's cheaper than Flurry, Jabs, Dizzy and Heroic Slash. Considering all other stuns in the game are significantly costlier than spammables, should a 28m-range,double-CC with a strong heal attached be so cheap?

It make no sense to me. The cost could be easily another 1k up and it would still be the best ranged stun hands down.

Alucardo

Or they could reduce the cost of javelin. It does feel very expensive for what it is.

susmitds

Draining Shot has a very small 1.5 second stun compared to Javelin's 3.5 sec.

Vapirko

Is draining shot too cheap or is javelin too expensive and/or under performing? Welcome back to stamina templar.

Dalsinthus

Wouldn’t be surprised if we see a change like what you’re suggesting when the patch after Elsweyr comes out and they do a pass through the weapon and armor skill lines.

Only thing that I think your analysis is missing is that draining shot ties you to using a bow and that the stun duration matters when your opponent is out of stam. 1.5 seconds might be survivable when you can’t cc break, 3 seconds is probably a death sentence.

Alucardo

susmitds wrote: »

Draining Shot has a very small 1.5 second stun compared to Javelin's 3.5 sec.

Draining shot also has a pretty significant heal attached to it

PapaWeeb

susmitds wrote: »

Draining Shot has a very small 1.5 second stun compared to Javelin's 3.5 sec.

And it may knock your target out of jabs range, depending on your mobility

Alucardo

Vapirko wrote: »

Is draining shot too cheap or is javelin too expensive and/or under performing? Welcome back to stamina templar.

I don't think it's underperforming, but for a skill with a basic stun that can be blocked, dodged, etc, I do think the cost is a little high.
Most of the time I go for the dizzying into jabs combo. Harder to land, but a lot more rewarding when it connects, not to mention slightly cheaper.

Crixus8000

I think javalin just needs a buff, such a lacking skill imo and the desription is funny for what it does.

Maulkin

Alucardo wrote: »

Or they could reduce the cost of javelin. It does feel very expensive for what it is.

Javelin, Reverb Bash, Dizzy, Flame Reach (without master weapon), Arctic Blast, Rune Cage, Fossilise, Fear. They are all significantly more expensive than spammable skills and Draining Shot.

The outlier here in terms of cost is not Javelin, it's Draining Shot. Although they could add some more utility to Javelin.

Maulkin

susmitds wrote: »

Draining Shot has a very small 1.5 second stun compared to Javelin's 3.5 sec.

Indeed, but it's inconsiquential for PvP since every one CC breaks anyway. Still doesn't justify 850 stam less cost and then near 8k heal of Draining Shot.

Maulkin

Vapirko wrote: »

Is draining shot too cheap or is javelin too expensive and/or under performing? Welcome back to stamina templar.

That's a very easy question to answer when you look at the cost of draining shot vs the cost of other stuns and the cost of spammables

LordTareq

Draining shot needs to be brought in line.

Royalthought

Asking for more nerfs huh.

Thats like saying javelins stun is too long because draing shot is two seconds shorter.

Maulkin

Royalthought wrote: »

Asking for more nerfs huh.

Thats like saying javelins stun is too long because draing shot is two seconds shorter.

Alright pal

Vermethys

I current use Binding Javelin on my Stamplar, but I've been thinking about switching over to Silver Leash tbh. It pulls people to melee range and that snare sounds nice for landing my Jabs. It deals more damage than Javelin too.

Most competent players break free the moment they are stunned by the Javelin, so I don't find the 3 seconds all that attractive. Binding Javelin, for what it does, is underwhelming.

Regarding Draining Shot, I think it would be a great CC if you only use it to create distance or if you have a reliable gap closer, because you'll be pushing people away -- which is counter productive considering Stamplar depends on Jabs.

JobooAGS

javalin also can proc burning light, can be used on any weapon, gives you minor protection when used and 10% crit dmg when slotted. However, it can use a cost decrease

Royalthought

JobooAGS wrote: »

javalin also can proc burning light, can be used on any weapon, gives you minor protection when used and 10% crit dmg when slotted. However, it can use a cost decrease

Well stated. Perfectly fine to address an ability due for an upgrade.

Not sure why so many see the grass as being greener on the other yard and ask if weeds can be planted to hinder a neighbor.

Crabs in the bucket mentality is too common.

Maulkin

JobooAGS wrote: »

javalin also can proc burning light, can be used on any weapon, gives you minor protection when used and 10% crit dmg when slotted. However, it can use a cost decrease

I'm bemused by those arguments. None of these are properties of Javelin, they are all properties of the tree. You can get all of that from just Jabs. Same as you can get major expedition on dodge roll and weapon crit without having Draining Shot slotted.

Maulkin

Royalthought wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

javalin also can proc burning light, can be used on any weapon, gives you minor protection when used and 10% crit dmg when slotted. However, it can use a cost decrease

Well stated. Perfectly fine to address an ability due for an upgrade.

Not sure why so many see the grass as being greener on the other yard and ask if weeds can be planted to hinder a neighbor.

Crabs in the bucket mentality is too common.

I've explained this multiple times but you simply refuse to listen. Because among all the stun abilities in the game, draining shot stands out as incredibly cheaper. Cheaper than spammables. While also having great utility.

It's not just about javelin.

Royalthought

Maulkin wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

javalin also can proc burning light, can be used on any weapon, gives you minor protection when used and 10% crit dmg when slotted. However, it can use a cost decrease

Well stated. Perfectly fine to address an ability due for an upgrade.

Not sure why so many see the grass as being greener on the other yard and ask if weeds can be planted to hinder a neighbor.

Crabs in the bucket mentality is too common.

I've explained this multiple times but you simply refuse to listen. Because among all the stun abilities in the game, draining shot stands out as incredibly cheaper. Cheaper than spammables. While also having great utility.

It's not just about javelin.

Youre making assumptions. Theyre bad for us understanding one another.

Theres a difference between not understanding and not not agreeing.

When we view things in a vacuum, we take them out of context. Review above and it still stands.

No interest in this nerf.

Maulkin

Royalthought wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

JobooAGS wrote: »

javalin also can proc burning light, can be used on any weapon, gives you minor protection when used and 10% crit dmg when slotted. However, it can use a cost decrease

Well stated. Perfectly fine to address an ability due for an upgrade.

Not sure why so many see the grass as being greener on the other yard and ask if weeds can be planted to hinder a neighbor.

Crabs in the bucket mentality is too common.

I've explained this multiple times but you simply refuse to listen. Because among all the stun abilities in the game, draining shot stands out as incredibly cheaper. Cheaper than spammables. While also having great utility.

It's not just about javelin.

Youre making assumptions. Theyre bad for us understanding one another.

Theres a difference between not understanding and not not agreeing.

When we view things in a vacuum, we take them out of context. Review above and it still stands.

No interest in this nerf.

I have no idea what any of that means so.... Have a nice day?

Vapirko

Alucardo wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Is draining shot too cheap or is javelin too expensive and/or under performing? Welcome back to stamina templar.

I don't think it's underperforming, but for a skill with a basic stun that can be blocked, dodged, etc, I do think the cost is a little high.
Most of the time I go for the dizzying into jabs combo. Harder to land, but a lot more rewarding when it connects, not to mention slightly cheaper.

Dizzy to jabs is one of the best combos out there. Unfortunately if your ping is anything less than stellar dizzy isn’t an option. But I’d agree that javelin isn’t under performing but it is expensive. It feels quite taxing on resources.

Toc de Malsvi

I have used it off and on, despite primarily playing bow builds I can definitely agree with a cost increase to the skill. It is hard to argue that the skill is not at least a bit overloaded. It was more reasonable when the range was significantly lower, with the change to range that is much appreciated this skill has too much.

Heal:
As to the heal, first I think it's important to note that it is not a reliable heal as it requires that both the target be CC'd and that the target break CC before it comes back to you as a projectile. Which was why it used to be passively dodged all the time. The heal while very strong is just completely unreliable as the CC can be blocked, dodged, and reflected. I have even died several times in duels from opponents who simply didn't break free immediately which led to their dots eating me up before the heal got back to me. Against good players you often have to run away from them to get them to drop block and chase in order to land it on them. Which again plays into the complete unreliability of the heal.

The second part to note about the heal was ZOS was looking for a way to add healing to the Bow line and decided to go with it on Draining Shot. Probably because of obvious reasons related to the name. One of the issues with Bows is they have lower weapon damage than their counterparts which makes everything including healing weaker on your bow bar. Destro has similar issues but has more class options which mitigate it through more class magicka morphs. In order to pseudo combat this, ZOS added the Draining Shot heal and buffed it hugely. The current result is an overloaded CC ability.

Options:
Aside from just nerfing the functionality of the skill to crap, or increasing the cost which I already agree should be done. We can consider that its not that widely used as is despite all of its perks, there are a lot of things that could be done to bring it in line. They could remove the CC from the skill line all together but retain the heal and self knock back(or higher damage), they could move the healing to a less used skill/morph like Venom Arrow, they could rework the function of the heal and scaling. There are lots of options when making changes to this skill, but I can agree that even given drawbacks it has too much for too little cost.

CatchMeTrolling

JobooAGS wrote: »

javalin also can proc burning light, can be used on any weapon, gives you minor protection when used and 10% crit dmg when slotted. However, it can use a cost decrease

I’m perplexed that people would even agree with this since it’s such a big straw man. None of that has anything to do with javelin, those are separate passives. The same logic can be applied to bow skill passives and draining shot.

Anotherone773

Javelin is a class skill and draining shot is a weapon skill. Its apples and oranges with skill lines. I remember people saying how terrible bow was, yet it seems every time you turn around someone is wanting to nerf one of its skills.

How about just boosting javelin. For example: restores X of two of three of your lowest resources at time of cast. I am thinking of X being somewhere in the 800-1600 range. At 800 it would mean when your stamina drops low enough it would cost the same as draining shot but with a smaller heal and a longer stun. At 1600, it would refund about 60% of the cost of the ability. I would lean around 1200 as a good number.

Jeezye

Draining shot is definitely one of the „overloaded“ abilities, as others have pointed out in direct comparison to clench/spear.

I like the way the skill works, but it should def get a cost increase by at least 1k to also prevent spamming from stupid zerglings.

I always thought the masters clench spam was bad until they buffed draining shot...

Maulkin

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Javelin is a class skill and draining shot is a weapon skill. Its apples and oranges with skill lines. I remember people saying how terrible bow was, yet it seems every time you turn around someone is wanting to nerf one of its skills.

How about just boosting javelin. For example: restores X of two of three of your lowest resources at time of cast. I am thinking of X being somewhere in the 800-1600 range. At 800 it would mean when your stamina drops low enough it would cost the same as draining shot but with a smaller heal and a longer stun. At 1600, it would refund about 60% of the cost of the ability. I would lean around 1200 as a good number.

Boosting Javelin is one thing and I'm certainly behind that. The cost of Draining Shot however is another.

I think you're conveniently ignoring a large part of this thread that clearly details how Draining Shot in particular is a lot cheaper than even spammable skills, never mind other hard CC skills. That's not gonna be balanced out by buffing Javelin.

Alucardo

Jeezye wrote: »

Draining shot is definitely one of the „overloaded“ abilities, as others have pointed out in direct comparison to clench/spear.

I like the way the skill works, but it should def get a cost increase by at least 1k to also prevent spamming from stupid zerglings.

I always thought the masters clench spam was bad until they buffed draining shot...

Alternatively I'd be happy if they just brought the range back to what it was originally. If you want that heal then come and get it. There's no risk vs reward attached to it.

Anotherone773

Maulkin wrote: »

Anotherone773 wrote: »

Javelin is a class skill and draining shot is a weapon skill. Its apples and oranges with skill lines. I remember people saying how terrible bow was, yet it seems every time you turn around someone is wanting to nerf one of its skills.

How about just boosting javelin. For example: restores X of two of three of your lowest resources at time of cast. I am thinking of X being somewhere in the 800-1600 range. At 800 it would mean when your stamina drops low enough it would cost the same as draining shot but with a smaller heal and a longer stun. At 1600, it would refund about 60% of the cost of the ability. I would lean around 1200 as a good number.

Boosting Javelin is one thing and I'm certainly behind that. The cost of Draining Shot however is another.

I think you're conveniently ignoring a large part of this thread that clearly details how Draining Shot in particular is a lot cheaper than even spammable skills, never mind other hard CC skills. That's not gonna be balanced out by buffing Javelin.

Im not ignoring it, the arguments just arent good enough to be noteworthy to me. However:

1) Class skills vs weapon skills. Class skills obviously allow a lot more flexibility. That has to be factored in.
2) Making all skills similar is silly. Lets just have 10 skills in the game and call it a day. They dont need to be comparable because you will never balance a game comparing skill x to skill y and skill z and deciding that skill x needs a nerf. Only to 3 months later decide that now skill y needs a nerf because it is overperforming compared to skill X and skill V. Then 3 months after that you need a nerf of skill Z because its overperforming compared to skill V, X and Y. This circle of nerfs is why no devs are ever able to balance anything.

Instead what you have to look at is that skill giving a significant advantage that is allowing the wielder to easily win fights that should be comparable? My answer, after spending several days in Cyro taking and retaking various event quest areas for pvers, along with my general pvp experience in cyro and BGs on a bow/bow character...is no. Draining shot does not give me a significant advantage against other pvpers.

3) I am generally against nerfing. Devs in ESO are terrible about balance adjustments as it is. They typically nerf something from very good to "completely useless will never slot that again id rather throw small rocks at my enemies than use that skill."

4)I also find it a bit hard to compare a class that is so good at a lot of things having one skill that isnt up to par with another skill a bit hard to swallow, especially when that class can obtain the skill in question by simply equipping a bow. Logic dictates that if you want a skill like draining shot on your stamplar, put a bow on your back bar. No need to urinate in everyone elses cheerios. Unlike Templar skills, draining shot is available to every single character in the game.

TheYKcid

Making statements like:

"after spending several days in Cyro"
"bow/bow character"
"a class [Stamplar] that is so good at a lot of things"

does not boost your credibility when debating balance issues.