Reflecting on all the class nerfs from Zenimax / ESO becoming a garbage game for casual gamers

JinMori

The usual we are the casuals argument.

Listening to you would make the game boring very fast, you also have the tendency of over exaggerating your numbers to make a point, like the 500% more dps, gtfo with that bs.

Look, weaving is pretty easy, it's all down to timing, you know how to count seconds right? then you should find learning how to weave pretty easy, the only excuse is laziness.

Also, stop bringing up the we are the majority, no, you don't know that, you don't have any idea what the numbers are, so don't even bring up that point.

A very easy game, is also a game that gets boring very fast, with no depth there is no fun, the reason why this game has such a difference in the top and bottom is because you have the freedom to choose your abilities in this game, meaning that you could make a really sucky setup or a really good one, if you suck, you have no other people to blame then you, the freedom to choose is good, and a selling point of eso, but it also means that you could make a terrible setup.

Usually those people who make terrible setups also are very bad at combat, either always light or heavy attacking, and generally having no idea at all how to fight, zos will never be able to reduce the gap, because reducing the gap would mean changing the game for the worse, matter of fact is that when the pro get nerfed, you also get nerfed, the gap will not diminish, the only way to do that is to remove mechanics from the game to make it easier.

As a matter of fact a lot of people in this game are really terrible exactly because of this freedom to choose, don't like that?Get better information.

Even if the game was only la more skillful players would still win because positioning, awareness etc... You will NEVER close skill gap, so either get better, of keep losing, this is the one truth in games and even in life, get better or suck for all your life, and in games it's not that hard to get better unless you have some major impediments.

This is envy, Envy is basically want without work, and the only way to get something without work or less work at least is to steal from someone else, this is why envy has a bad connotation, but some things are impossible to steal, like skill, so you would rather have everything be brought down a level, which is what you are asking, nerf the pro, we are the casuals, and all that bs.

You compare yourself to other players, and see you are lacking, some people react by getting better, others would rather just have the game become easier, or cater more to them.

Kikke

Another NB crying because they got nerfed? Realy? STOP COMPLAINING! you've been nr1 for over a year. Time for nerfs. ADAPT!

Emma_Overload

Reverb wrote: »

Nightblade tears, disguised as advocating for new and casual players. Nice twist.

Seriously, where was this energy when Templars, DKs and Sorcs were getting nerfed?

Nightblades have basically never been nerfed, and even the upcoming nerfs on PTS are very weak. As long as these guys can poof into thin air whenever they feel like it, they can work around any nerf.

Luthid

Reverb wrote: »

Nightblade tears,
disguised as advocating for new and casual players.
Nice twist.

Nice haiku

Morgul667

I stopped when you said impale is an useless skill

cmetzger93

Yea class reps get way too much clout. It’s because of them that ZOS are too worried about adding meaningful content like spellcrafting because they think it will break the game balance and shake up the meta

AcadianPaladin

I agree with OP completely with his general point that each and every major update makes my game less fun to play. And I know I am not alone. The logical end of that path is not encouraging for the game.

I don't think it was wise to then add a long list of NB specific complaints. My sorc, NB, DK and templar have each experienced nerfs over the years that have caused me to constantly keep my eyes and ears open for a better game to play.

Lastly, I quite like the spectrum of difficulty that ESO offers - ranging from delves to veteran trials and everything in between. Each of us seek our own 'end game' level of desired challenge. Mine, for example, is soloing most WBs in the alliance (not DLC) zones and soloing a fair number of normal group dungeons (again, alliance zones only).

My point and, again, where I agree with OP is that after several years of poorly conceived nerfs with each major patch I've rather had a gutfull of 'adapting' to things that point blank make my game less fun.

Tigerseye

Would you feel the same way if their approach was to buff the bad classes/skills/races etc., rather than nerfing some of the better ones?

If not, then fair enough, I guess.

Although, your numbers aren't supposed to be the main point - balance is.

Tigerseye

By the way, I agree with you on the massive flaws in the combat system, which should have been fixed from the very start, not "embraced".

However, that is a separate issue to them attempting to balance things.

Alucardo

Came here to see what OP had to say about all the class nerfs, but drowned in nightblade tears instead. I got baited.

FangOfTheTwoMoons

Guardna wrote: »

The game is already too easy as it is and they keep nerfing harder content to the point where for a veteran players there is no challenge in this game anymore.You dont speak for the whole casual playerbase,not all casual will stay like that and might want harder content in the future,not every casual is so bad at the game that those nerf affect them.The game is not all about damage nb got more healing now and survival is more important to casuals,In your words every skill that does not do big damage is bad but there are nb tanks and healers too and casuals like to play such niche builds too.Since you only mention nb nerfs here and not the positive changes and other classess buffs and nb is not the only class in the whole game which casuals play it lets me to assume that you that you are a butthurt nb main who doesnt like his op class getting in line with others.The nb pvp nerfs were needed even though they are not that severe and as for pve its a really small nerf if at all since you still get minor berserk in groups and major fracture and you even give you group and yourself more pen now so everyone can takeout some points from pene cp or are you just mad you cant have insane dummy parses now to show off self bufffed?You mention pvp too for casuals and that doesnt go hand in hand since casuals that stay casuals will not do pvp since its not fun to get one shotted every single time and those who invest time and effort into the game to be better at it and research and get sets are no casuals no more.

Someone does't pvp much. The heal on the bow proc is useless for pve and taking away minor endurance is a hindrance for pve and pvp. The skill costs stam on both casts, and the bow is heavily telegraphed and slow so you wont even get the benefit of it. Incap could have just had it's cost increased. In PvE holding on to the ult is a damage loss and even if you were to apply Mangle it actually makes it harder to reach execute. In PvP it only remains for the stun so you'll just break free immediately. Healing is just going to become a problem in PvP with all the Defile nerfs. You said it's a buff to survival but NB actually got a huge nerf to healing with the Dark Cloak change. Not to mention MagNB is worse more now than ever with losing Minior Berserk and The Bow proc healing being usless to them cause you have to be within 7 meters.

DreadKnight

I'm more concerned about the homogenization of skills trend that is going on. If all damage skills from classes are being basically made the same where is our class identity heading? we all do the same damage but with just different animation?

If the nerfs to specific skills means that people will no longer use them, classes just become the same, if dk's no longer use wings for example, wings on a dk are a class defining skill.

SoLooney

The tears from the nightblade are definitely saltier than the tears from the sorcs when they constantly got nerfed

I dont play pvp on nightblades but i play both mag and stamblade in pve. Move on, cry to your pillows

mcagatayg

PvP magblade has been useless before these changes and will continue to be so. They nerfed stamblade but it's still ok. You are overreacting a bit. But you are correct about balancing, they need to change their approach to balancing classes. Not just nightblade, all of them. For example, removing minor berserk from nightblade but keeping it on warden which is quite strong for PvE and PvP. Weird choice.

woe

Wow other classes won't be behind the nightblade oh no better cry and pout about it because something changed. It still hits good numbers and it's still FIRST WEEK OF PTS. Jesus christ get your *** together you little whiny kids. Things change.

StackonClown

every player rep is basically a pro - Zenny only listens to the top 1% and any fanboi youtubers etc
The feedback they give might be fun for the top tier but completely goes against cas players..
problem is since most devs are geeks themselves they love having other geeks 'pros' as fanbois - casual players are beneath them

shaielzafine

Lol. Why are you surprised it's nightblades' turn to win at nerf roulette this time? This is how they "balance" everything. One class at a time. I've come to understand that we don't really get a lot of communication on why or what is going on. Lots and lots of changes without actually solving the problems. Just wait until necromancer comes out. Ex. stamplar loses protection buff while necro has so many buffs including major & minor protection. I suggest you look up the new class or try it on PTS. And then when they're done promoting Elsweyr expansion they will probably nerf necromancer to be more in line with the other classes... unless the roulette lands on another class lol. Warden was underwhelming for pve when it came out, and now look they nerfed Warhorn so toughness buff can only be had from Wardens. (Nerf one thing to buff another thing!) And magden keeps getting shafted for dps while stamden is still nice and bursty DPS while self healing and tanking for PvP.

linoge63

I'm no game master etc but I keep wondering why wouldn't these classes over time keep having new skills and neat abilities that keep things spicy and interesting and possibly attenuate in some small way perceived lackings in classes rather than one hack job / nerf after another on the same old skills to cause "balance" ?

Why is it that the entire game has to change to balance power in pvp? Some sets are coded to not have the same impact on players as they do npcs so, why nerf anything in pve for the sake of pvp?

Do they really think players are that daft to not see the manipulation to buy the expansion and the new shiney power class after their age old enjoyable and empowered toon gets whacked to smithereens?

There's manipulation even in fishing !! 30 gold per salt water bait now ? Too much money being made by fishermen I guess so 1/3 of the holes have to go?

We that keep paying and playing this are as pathetic as this type of dev philosophy

bosmern_ESO

dazee wrote: »

I've seen what happens when devs start listening to the demands of the "pro" players over the voice of the general playerbase. the game goes south very quickly after becoming a really crappy game. I've seen it happen elsewhere and I'm not gonna sit by and be silent as it happens here.

Zenimax has been talking to the hardcore PvP/PvErs since before Imperial City came out. (I was in one of the guilds they would ask for balancing for PvP before we all kinda ghosted). If zeni is anything like they were then, i can tell you they have both hardcore players and casual players in mind. It seems like there is a good balance between the two.

I'd personally say im casual/hadcore ESO player. I like competing and challenging myself but at the same time I enjoy taking things easy and at my own pace. When i play casual I'm usually farming achievements, gathering matts to make potions/food to either use for myself or sell, or ill run around and do quests from zones Ive missed on my 3 year absence. If i want to play hardcore I'll play PvP or try and get a high score in the Maelstrom arena. If i had a PvE guild again id love to do trials because the craglorn trials were crazy fun.

barney2525

I was just wondering if you might go into some detail about what you were saying...

8)

But seriously...

The Only question I would have - If you don't use (slot) Any Assassination skills, Why should you benefit from the passive and get 10% Crit bonus?

Korah_Eaglecry

dazee wrote: »

Agreed a million percent with the OP. the point of a nerf is to bring hardcore players down in power to be closer to the casual players, not to hurt the casual players.

Any nerf must be designed with this in mind.

The biggest problem with bringing hardcore players down to casuals is that youre never going to remove the knowledge and skill that hardcore players have. This is why nerfs overall impact casuals far more than the hardcore. Because regardless of what ZOS or any company does, the casual has to lean heavily on "How To" guides to play the game. Where as the Hardcore player simply gets down to work testing and attempting to break things in the game to figure out the best way to maximize their gameplay. So by the time the nerfs are implemented most Hardcore Players have moved on or are at least preparing to move on to the new meta, while the casuals typically spend the next few weeks or months trying to catch up with the changes if they make an attempt at all.

OwnerOfSuccuby

Topic starter is noob. If you nerf players -> monsters become stronger. It is not for casuals.

Make monster stronger, stop nerfing danguans - all is to much simple now. Let them learn how to play. If they do not - it is not a ppint brake the game for good players. They can do normal on there 810. I first make my veledret on vet on 160+ with party of 160+.

Now it is so killed, that i thing it is possible to do 160+ naked.

Stop nerfing content already !!!

ThanatosXR

Calling this game hardcore is a insulting, this game has always been a extremely causal game, literally this game has never been a real mmo, anyone who thinks such has never played a mmo before,this game is a pure money operation, they never even tired to make it a mmo. Mmos have world building and social building, eso never had any, every other mmo you know builds a world and builds over time, in 5 years this game has litterally created nothing, hell theme park mmo's atleast build upon the world games like swtor,rift atleast evolve, eso has not changed in 5 years, there is literally nothing in this game but coping and pasting but but what about new areas, lol there clones of the same areas, hell there isnt even a class system in this game,you ever noticed all the classes are the same, you can litterally respec and instally do "role" which is just spamming the same predictedable skills, you ever noticed they never give you any modifiedable armor, all the armor is the same, because the class system isnt a class system you can do everything in the same armor. There are no raids, no advance content, all so called endgame/vet stuff is the same, some high health boss that spams instakills, name me one mmo that has that, none. Why because the eso is a store emulating a mmo, hell did you not notice content rewards aren't rewards their stuff pushing you to spend more. Well you say other mmos have stores, yeah they also tend to have content too, news raids and other things are introduced, hell you ever noticed the pve content is copied and pasted, dolmens and. delves never change nor evolve, everything in this game never changes. You read these fourms and people are begging Bethsada to give them new lootboxs and a reskin of the same pet, this is not a game, hell there isnt even a feedback fourm, coming from playing many mmo's it dawns on you this isnt a mmo this is a overpriced sim of a mmo. Took me awhile to relize this, I was noticing threw out my playing, every mmo stardard isnt in here, starred noticing a lack of design or even a attempt to be a mmo, pvp is a even bigger joke, they didn't even make the attempt to properly copy a pvp area, hell lotro pvp was a afterthought and it still is more complex, they just copied it and not even a good copy just the keeps, it has a real class system so keeps didnt need seige and crap, the siege system is another reminder there are no classes here, since everyone is the same there isnt real battles, hell in lotro raid were armies which roles battles could to be won due to using said skills and tactics , there is no tactics in eso its spam why because there are no classes. anyways eso is easier then call of duty and was never hardcore.

ThanatosXR

Compare this https://youtu.be/N6mPSK5Lksk
To this
https://youtu.be/0qsTBBWuziE

Notice one is one requires leadership and skills/tactics and the second is spam
Eso isnt a mmo, there is no thought required, not tactics, no mastering

Browiseth

i am completely okay with games having a high skill-cap, and i feel zos have been trying to design this game around that. not sure how long you've been playing, but being a dps in eso used to mean just spamming impulse over and over; now you need to build and manage a rotation, actually learn and play your class.

sorry not sorry to say it so bluntly, but you just gotta git gud.

RavenSworn

I agree with some of the changes but some are just... Idiotic.

There are nightblade tanks and healers as well. Taking away a burst heal for the tanks was a slap in the face. There are ways to mitigate it but I think there's too much of a job for ZoS to balance it all.

Some of the changes, like for merciless resolve also makes it seem like ZoS is taking away the identity of the nightblade. I mean, it's one thing to nerf the damage but the effects as well?

I'm all for changes, especially if an ability or a gear set is over performing. But this feels bad. We were already hit by siphoning strikes. Then it was cloak. Now it's merciless resolve. ZoS needs to pin down the right identity for nbs because this is really bad.

me_ming

theyancey wrote: »

It is we casual players who pay the bills. After launch many players left because it was more difficult than fun.
The game difficulty was reduced and the player base expanded again. Simple economics.

People didn't quit ESO after launch because it was difficult. People quit because the game was unplayable, bugs, glitches and bots everywhere. The only thing that was working then was PvP, before the "lightning patch" there was NO lag in Cyrodiil. I don't know about you, but I doubt you as a casual player was ever in Cyrodiil.

DreadKnight wrote: »

I'm more concerned about the homogenization of skills trend that is going on. If all damage skills from classes are being basically made the same where is our class identity heading? we all do the same damage but with just different animation?

If the nerfs to specific skills means that people will no longer use them, classes just become the same, if dk's no longer use wings for example, wings on a dk are a class defining skill.

This is a more legitimate concern about nerfs in this game. It HAS been many patches since the "original" classes has lost their identities. Sorcs, Templars and DKs have been nerfed so much, these classes have lost their identities. Magsorc execute is useless, Overload is useless, shields-- meh. Magplars Jesus beam is ehhh Ok I think, but compared to before (damn I miss 2 Dark Flare + 1 RO = AP), goodbye repentance, BoL is still ok, but kinda also miss healing 3 people with that (including myself). Only class I dreaded playing in PvP with my magplar was a DK with wings, which is why I rolled a DK some years ago, buuuut they are nerfing that too. Also I miss that DK pseudo execute with the heavy attack... gosh I forgot what that was called, I don't use that anymore.

So yeah, the only class among the 4 original classes that hasn't lost it's identity was the Nightblades. And honestly, I would have felt bad for them too, if there concern was expressed like how it was expressed in this quoted statement. If they were more concerned of the nerfs because every class is lossing their identity, I would have been able to relate, instead they think the world revolves around them and post something like "Let's save nightblades" pfffffttt... as have asked by several responses here in the forums, where were the nightblades when all the other classes were nerfed to the ground? Karma!

Rake

OP calls players that want to be good at game "macro-rotation addicts".
That is a point where all points OP makes are irrelevant.

AbysmalGhul

The world is crumbling around me *wipes tears*

me_ming

ThanatosXR wrote: »

Compare this https://youtu.be/N6mPSK5Lksk
To this
https://youtu.be/0qsTBBWuziE

Notice one is one requires leadership and skills/tactics and the second is spam
Eso isnt a mmo, there is no thought required, not tactics, no mastering

How can you compare a raid to a solo PvP? lol. Have you ever been with an organized PvP raid team in ESO? Solo is very different from raid mechanics. I don't think it's fair to say that ESO is not an MMO because YOU don't know tactics in cyrodiil and have no mastery.