Grim Focus/Teleport Strike changes unfairly hurts build diversity

HackTheMinotaur

If you are familiar with me or my YouTube channel you understand that I don’t main any one class. Honestly I just get bored playing the same class so I’d prefer to create a bunch of diverse builds and learn new play styles.

This is why I have some serious issues with the nightblade changes on pts. Though ZOS seems to keep harping on the fact that they are reducing buff redundancy or they are trying to maintain the “stealth rogue feel”, all I see is them pigeonholing the class further and further into a single playstyle. This is what the changes to grim focus and teleport strike do. I don’t like it.

1) Why remove one 8% damage buff when you simply add it back in another form? This does not change any net power for the Meta stam nightblade Build. Why change it in the first place? Changes like this seem arbitrary, confusing and simply create bad blood with the player base.

2) Teleport strike drastically limits both stam and mag nightblade build diversity.

Hello? You understand that this skill is not used by many iterations of the nightblade, right? How about a ranged bow build? A brawler blade that gap closes with quick cloak? A ranged mag blade using a destro staff? Hello?! What happened to these builds? Are you suggesting we don’t explore those play styles anymore? Well that’s what you are implying by moving the 8% damage buff to a GAP CLOSER.

3) Passive healing is redundant on the nightblade class. Also that heal is insignificant in PVP.

To remove minor berserk and make the skill heal instead seems lazy. We talked a lot about reducing redundancy among class skills but nightblades already get one of the best passive healing skills in the game via leeching/siphoning strikes. Doesn’t this change just basically do the same thing? Instead of a heal on every light attack I now get a smaller heal after FIVE light attacks? This doesn’t make sense and again seems lazy. Battle spirit will cut the heal to around 16% of damage dealt won’t it? So if my bow hits for 5000 (again, considering battle spirit and no berserk potentially) , that’s roughly an 800 hp heal. That’s the same as ONE proc of leeching strikes!

If Grim Focus stays like this I will not run it in favor of leeching strikes. They do the same thing and I don’t have enough bar space to run both (since I may need to run Mark target now too, but that’s a different complaint).

If you feel like Grim Focus is overloaded then consider a slight damage reduction.

If you feel like teleport strike is not “special” enough give it something less critical to the class identity of burst damage so that we still have the choice to make without being forced to use the skill now.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler - We want build diversity, not forced play styles!

Raudgrani

I wouldn't care a bit if they removed the whole arrow thing from Grim focus, as long as they leave Minor Berserk in it. I mean, NB's are inherently supposed to be assassins, not brawlers. If you open up with Teleport Strike to take out your target, you engage in a brawl, you are not trying to instantly take out your target. If anyone wants to play "outside the role" and go brawler instead of assassin style, by all means - have fun and do so, but then you can get your damage bonus from other sources.

It's like, every time you read patch notes, you get a "New World Order" feeling, where authority is trying to make everyone the same, take away all that is unique, and make everyone weak and feeble. I'm getting very tired of getting disappointed and demotivated to even play the game, every time there's a new update...

Strider__Roshin

Ambush is the worst gap closer in the game on live, not to mention one of the most expensive if not the most. I agree that remove minor berserk from grim focus was stupid, but that's mainly because I'm now spending resources for literally nothing just to spend more resources whenever I want to use the move. To say the grim focus changes were asinine is putting it lightly.

Apxac

How would you feel if Merciless gave Major Sorcery or maybe even Major Sorcery + Major Prophecy? Having those buffs on Merciless would seriuously improve magblade bar space and facilitate pre-buffing in cloak for ganking / bombing playstyles. This would only buff magblade, not stamblade. As far as I'm concerned they could drop Sorcery from Sap as well as the IMO ill-conceived idea of turning Merciless into a damage + healing skill.

I think this is a really good idea. It would be nice to get these buffs from 1 class ability, I think it would solve the problem of a lack of slots for healing ability (a cloak no longer heals enough, but it gives a good protection in time). This is an interesting idea, I would test it.

And with healing it would be worth doing otherwise. It should be removed from Merciless, because it is simply useless. BUT the healing of Swallow Soul should be made stable, tied to the base damage, not to the damage done. This will solve all the problems of the class, I think. In addition, it is worth reviewing the flight time of the arrow, because this is the only burst damage at nightblade, but it is too slow, take a very long time and very easy to dodge.

Chilly-McFreeze

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

1) Why remove one 8% damage buff when you simply add it back in another form?

2) Teleport strike drastically limits both stam and mag nightblade build diversity.

3) Passive healing is redundant on the nightblade class. Also that heal is insignificant in PVP.

We talked a lot about reducing redundancy among class skills but nightblades already get one of the best passive healing skills in the game via leeching/siphoning strikes.

1) Wasn't lacking group utility a pain point of the class?
2) Like Hurricane reduces stamsorc build diversity to melee?
3) I remember the tears about the nerfed selfhealing capabilities of mNBs very well. Okay, this heal won't make or break your build but I disagree with the statement.

Dracane

Merciless resolve is strong enough as it is. The highest damaging ranged ability I believe since Overload is gone.
Now other classes don't have to feel like fools for using slimecraw, knowing Nightblades just get it for free on their day to day abilities (like most of their abilities and passives really). Warden still has it. But the warden speed buff is not that special and not such a potent ability like Grim Focus.

I also don't agree at all that Nightblades have low damage in pvp. I think they have extremely good damage, especially magicka Nightblades who have immense ranged pressure. I never understood why people say, Magicka Nightblade is so bad in pvp. Taking free minor berserk from them should make it a bit harder to achieve such damage.

I don't want to support the nerfhammer philosophy and I think Nightblades have taken enough now. But taking some passive potency from Nightblades was a reasonable move in my opinion. Prior to Wrathstone, is was almost not justifiable to not play a Nightblade, Magicka or Stamina.

Apxac

Dracane wrote: »

Merciless resolve is strong enough as it is. The highest damaging ranged ability I believe since Overload is gone.
Now other classes don't have to feel like fools for using slimecraw, knowing Nightblades just get it for free on their day to day abilities (like most of their abilities and passives really). Warden still has it. But the warden speed buff is not that special and not such a potent ability like Grim Focus.

I also don't agree at all that Nightblades have low damage in pvp. I think they have extremely good damage, especially magicka Nightblades who have immense ranged pressure. I never understood why people say, Magicka Nightblade is so bad in pvp. Taking free minor berserk from them should make it a bit harder to achieve such damage.

I don't want to support the nerfhammer philosophy and I think Nightblades have taken enough now. But taking some passive potency from Nightblades was a reasonable move in my opinion. Prior to Wrathstone, is was almost not justifiable to not play a Nightblade, Magicka or Stamina.

You do not understand, because you do not play this class. I have already spoken to many and I will tell you: try this! Try to fight for magblade and win, I'll see what you say ... Terribly annoy the opinions of people who do not understand what they are talking about.

jcm2606

Dracane wrote: »

Merciless resolve is strong enough as it is. The highest damaging ranged ability I believe since Overload is gone.
Now other classes don't have to feel like fools for using slimecraw, knowing Nightblades just get it for free on their day to day abilities (like most of their abilities and passives really). Warden still has it. But the warden speed buff is not that special and not such a potent ability like Grim Focus.

I also don't agree at all that Nightblades have low damage in pvp. I think they have extremely good damage, especially magicka Nightblades who have immense ranged pressure. I never understood why people say, Magicka Nightblade is so bad in pvp. Taking free minor berserk from them should make it a bit harder to achieve such damage.

I don't want to support the nerfhammer philosophy and I think Nightblades have taken enough now. But taking some passive potency from Nightblades was a reasonable move in my opinion. Prior to Wrathstone, is was almost not justifiable to not play a Nightblade, Magicka or Stamina.

In PVE, nobody cared about Minor Berserk because the healer supplied it, and in PVP, it's just stripping the class of a semi-unique buff that fits thematically.

Magblade also isn't considered bad in PVP because of the damage, rather the lack of defensive options, being shoehorned into ranged playstyles which sucks against classes like DK and Warden, and the lack of solid group utility at the high end.

Cloak is too much of a polarising skill, being amazing when a counter isn't used, but completely useless when one is used, Shade is so buggy that it seems like its up to RNG as to whether you teleport or not, healing potential has been slowly stripped from the class, and there's nothing else to make up for these shortcomings.

Dracane

Apxac wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Merciless resolve is strong enough as it is. The highest damaging ranged ability I believe since Overload is gone.
Now other classes don't have to feel like fools for using slimecraw, knowing Nightblades just get it for free on their day to day abilities (like most of their abilities and passives really). Warden still has it. But the warden speed buff is not that special and not such a potent ability like Grim Focus.

I also don't agree at all that Nightblades have low damage in pvp. I think they have extremely good damage, especially magicka Nightblades who have immense ranged pressure. I never understood why people say, Magicka Nightblade is so bad in pvp. Taking free minor berserk from them should make it a bit harder to achieve such damage.

I don't want to support the nerfhammer philosophy and I think Nightblades have taken enough now. But taking some passive potency from Nightblades was a reasonable move in my opinion. Prior to Wrathstone, is was almost not justifiable to not play a Nightblade, Magicka or Stamina.

You do not understand, because you do not play this class. I have already spoken to many and I will tell you: try this! Try to fight for magblade and win, I'll see what you say ... Terribly annoy the opinions of people who do not understand what they are talking about.

What foolish assumptions you make. Of course I am playing a magicka Nightblade. How could I not ? And I was being so jealous, because my magicka Nightblade did everything better than my Sorcerer. Now I no longer feel forced to play a Nightblade. I actually see some appeal in playing my Sorcerer instead.

If this is not a valid argument for you, then be it thus. But this is why I feel the changes are good. And yes, they are as selfish as your arguments. We always want what is best for us, before anything else.

Just for your understanding. I don't think Nightblades need nerfs because I am struggling against them (I do not in most cases) but because I feel forced to play one, due to the immense passive potency and I know many people used to feel the same way. (for pve mostly)

Dracane

jcm2606 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Merciless resolve is strong enough as it is. The highest damaging ranged ability I believe since Overload is gone.
Now other classes don't have to feel like fools for using slimecraw, knowing Nightblades just get it for free on their day to day abilities (like most of their abilities and passives really). Warden still has it. But the warden speed buff is not that special and not such a potent ability like Grim Focus.

I also don't agree at all that Nightblades have low damage in pvp. I think they have extremely good damage, especially magicka Nightblades who have immense ranged pressure. I never understood why people say, Magicka Nightblade is so bad in pvp. Taking free minor berserk from them should make it a bit harder to achieve such damage.

I don't want to support the nerfhammer philosophy and I think Nightblades have taken enough now. But taking some passive potency from Nightblades was a reasonable move in my opinion. Prior to Wrathstone, is was almost not justifiable to not play a Nightblade, Magicka or Stamina.

In PVE, nobody cared about Minor Berserk because the healer supplied it, and in PVP, it's just stripping the class of a semi-unique buff that fits thematically.

Magblade also isn't considered bad in PVP because of the damage, rather the lack of defensive options, being shoehorned into ranged playstyles which sucks against classes like DK and Warden, and the lack of solid group utility at the high end.

Cloak is too much of a polarising skill, being amazing when a counter isn't used, but completely useless when one is used, Shade is so buggy that it seems like its up to RNG as to whether you teleport or not, healing potential has been slowly stripped from the class, and there's nothing else to make up for these shortcomings.

You are right. Nightblade is by far less effective against experienced players. Same goes for other classes though, to a lesser extend. I feel Nightblade has a much higher skill ceiling and can be godlike in the hands of a good player. The right use of teleport shade makes the difference for me. I wouldn't say the same about Sorcerers for example, they simply do not have this ceiling.

Wardens will remain a problem, as they are for really all ranged builds. But Dks will finally be doable next page I suppose.
Nerfs without any compensation of course, are very frustrating and that's a frustration that you Nightblade mains truly feel. I just want to feel like Nightblade is no longer the only option for me. In fact, after these patchnotes were announced, I stepped foot into pvp again on my Sorcerer. The first time since many months.

Glory

It actually increases build diversity, because what were previously underused skills (Mark Target, Ambush) due to their redundancy are now worth using.

An exaggerated example of this mechanic is as follows: you have 1 spammable skill that gives every buff and debuff in the game when it does damage. Why use any other skills as spammable damage skills? When you start to move some buffs/debuffs from this skill to other skills, those become viable options as part of your build, thus creating more build diversity.

kookster

The change to ambush buffs snipe gankers. As it will apply minor vuln before the snipe lands. And most gankers run camo hunter, so they will still have access to minor berserk. So essentially they buffed gankers. *Slow Clap*

HackTheMinotaur

Glory wrote: »

It actually increases build diversity, because what were previously underused skills (Mark Target, Ambush) due to their redundancy are now worth using.

An exaggerated example of this mechanic is as follows: you have 1 spammable skill that gives every buff and debuff in the game when it does damage. Why use any other skills as spammable damage skills? When you start to move some buffs/debuffs from this skill to other skills, those become viable options as part of your build, thus creating more build diversity.

If they buffed teleport strike AND left berserk on Grim Focus you would be correct. But they didn’t do that. They took the 8% damage increase available to All NB builds (because it was a self buff) and moved it to a gap closer. This forces us to use a gap closer if we want to maintain the same relative power level as a solo player. Pure range builds are now excluded including most bow builds and most mag blades. That’s not promoting build diversity imo.

Insco851

Tried lotus fan yesterday for a bit... trassssshhhhhhhh gap closer. Terrible wonky jerky skill that you can’t expect to fire off reliably against a moving target.

Silver_Strider

I will continue to advocate moving Minor Vulnerability to Reaper's Mark instead of Teleport Strike in an attempt to stem potential PvP abuse and for practical PvE application.

BlackMadara

kookster wrote: »

The change to ambush buffs snipe gankers. As it will apply minor vuln before the snipe lands. And most gankers run camo hunter, so they will still have access to minor berserk. So essentially they buffed gankers. *Slow Clap*

They increased the speed of the snipe projectile to prevent such a thing from happening

BlackMadara

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

Glory wrote: »

It actually increases build diversity, because what were previously underused skills (Mark Target, Ambush) due to their redundancy are now worth using.

An exaggerated example of this mechanic is as follows: you have 1 spammable skill that gives every buff and debuff in the game when it does damage. Why use any other skills as spammable damage skills? When you start to move some buffs/debuffs from this skill to other skills, those become viable options as part of your build, thus creating more build diversity.

If they buffed teleport strike AND left berserk on Grim Focus you would be correct. But they didn’t do that. They took the 8% damage increase available to All NB builds (because it was a self buff) and moved it to a gap closer. This forces us to use a gap closer if we want to maintain the same relative power level as a solo player. Pure range builds are now excluded including most bow builds and most mag blades. That’s not promoting build diversity imo.

It does promote build diversity in the function that if a player wants to have increased damage and healing, they will need to be in melee range. If they do not, they can play a safer, kiting style with less damage at range. Build diversity does not mean that every play style has everything. You must make choices.

Jeezye

Dracane wrote: »

What foolish assumptions you make. Of course I am playing a magicka Nightblade. How could I not ? And I was being so jealous, because my magicka Nightblade did everything better than my Sorcerer. Now I no longer feel forced to play a Nightblade. I actually see some appeal in playing my Sorcerer instead.

If this is not a valid argument for you, then be it thus. But this is why I feel the changes are good. And yes, they are as selfish as your arguments. We always want what is best for us, before anything else.

Just for your understanding. I don't think Nightblades need nerfs because I am struggling against them (I do not in most cases) but because I feel forced to play one, due to the immense passive potency and I know many people used to feel the same way. (for pve mostly)

WHAT?! I'm really sorry, I know you are a competent (pet) sorc player but this is just sooo plain wrong! Literally every direct comparion between sorc and nightblade goes in favor to the sorc, don't even get me started on the power creep between both classes. In PVE, maybe different story, but PVP wise sorc beats magblade 10/10 times.

Lucky28

Dracane wrote: »

Apxac wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Merciless resolve is strong enough as it is. The highest damaging ranged ability I believe since Overload is gone.
Now other classes don't have to feel like fools for using slimecraw, knowing Nightblades just get it for free on their day to day abilities (like most of their abilities and passives really). Warden still has it. But the warden speed buff is not that special and not such a potent ability like Grim Focus.

I also don't agree at all that Nightblades have low damage in pvp. I think they have extremely good damage, especially magicka Nightblades who have immense ranged pressure. I never understood why people say, Magicka Nightblade is so bad in pvp. Taking free minor berserk from them should make it a bit harder to achieve such damage.

I don't want to support the nerfhammer philosophy and I think Nightblades have taken enough now. But taking some passive potency from Nightblades was a reasonable move in my opinion. Prior to Wrathstone, is was almost not justifiable to not play a Nightblade, Magicka or Stamina.

You do not understand, because you do not play this class. I have already spoken to many and I will tell you: try this! Try to fight for magblade and win, I'll see what you say ... Terribly annoy the opinions of people who do not understand what they are talking about.

What foolish assumptions you make. Of course I am playing a magicka Nightblade. How could I not ? And I was being so jealous, because my magicka Nightblade did everything better than my Sorcerer. Now I no longer feel forced to play a Nightblade. I actually see some appeal in playing my Sorcerer instead.

If this is not a valid argument for you, then be it thus. But this is why I feel the changes are good. And yes, they are as selfish as your arguments. We always want what is best for us, before anything else.

Just for your understanding. I don't think Nightblades need nerfs because I am struggling against them (I do not in most cases) but because I feel forced to play one, due to the immense passive potency and I know many people used to feel the same way. (for pve mostly)

you must have a really *** sorc build.......

i don't understand how you could claim such with a straight face.

Mayrael

Huehue TBH I have ready magblade build for Elsweyr. I don't care anymore if they nerf grim focus or not, I won't use it anymore, it's clunky, easy to avoid, it makes you have that tunnel vision "is it the right moment to use AW?". Even without RAT with snare removal it's quite nice :] with snare removal... oh man I can't wait I just hope performance we have after hardware upgrade on PC EU will hold as that's the key to be successfull light armor user.

JinxxND

Hello, some changes I would like to see added instead of the current ones to the nightblade class that are a lot more balanced and fair for the class instead of limiting nightblades and pigeon holing them into stuff they do not already do.

1. Surprise attack losing major fracture. This has been the bread and butter for stamina nightblades since the game has came out and the source of major fracture and allows nightblades in combat that's already fast pace to change targets quickly apply the debuff on top of being the source of our major armor buff with major resolve and major ward. The fracture needs to stay and to remove "redundancies" from the nightblade kit you should remove it from Mark Target and it's morphs. Magicka nightblade being a ranged class already uses Weakness from Elements from the destruction staff line to get major breach along with sustain that is provide from that skill and stamina nightblade is unable to change targets in the already fast combat to constantly "mark" targets having to balance the limited magicka pool for other utility skills like Aspect of Terror and it's morphs, Shadow Cloak and it's morphs, Blur and it's morphs, Summon Shade and it's morphs, among many other magicka costing skills with an already limited magicka pool.

2. Teleport Strike and it's morph's getting minor vulnerability. Minor vulnerability should be added to Mark Target and it's morphs to actually increase use of this hardly used skill in PvP. Mark target hasn't been used as much if at all since the shortened stealth detection on it which was the original use of the skill and reason to slot it not for major breach/fracture which nightblade already had access to in ways that benefited the class. Pigeon holing nightblades especially magicka based ones that are ranged to run a melee gap closer for this debuff isn't the greatest of moves also forcing stamina nightblade to run an expensive gap closer over other gap closers if they so choose to such as Critical Charge and it's morphs Shield Charge and it's morph's which are sometimes associated with special weapons such as the Maelstrom weapon or Blackrose weapons if the stamina nightblade chooses to use them in his/her build rather then pigeon holing it to use it's class based gap closer.

3. Incapacitating strike losing major defile. This is the skill has been over tuned for quite awhile but not for the defile rather the stun associated with the skill and "insta gibbing" especially from stealth, I think the stun should just be removed entirely as that is the biggest problem with this skill and why magicka nightblades will sometimes slot this powerful ultimate. I would suggest bring back the defile which is pretty key in focusing healers and tanks especially in this tank meta something which minor mangle does nothing to help with as they can just heal through the damage applied even with the debuff and is one of the worst debuff in game along with not not lasting the full duration of the skill for whatever reason as it currently is in the PTS. I would suggest adding utility to the skill similar to how soul harvest the magicka morph has ultimate regen upon kill, with something like major savagery while slotted and just removing the stun altogether which doesn't affect PvE dps and doesn't insta gib people with the stun while retaining the ability to still focus down targets like healers and tanks with the defile.

4. Aspect of Terror and it's morphs not causing enemies to run away after feared. While this is probably the only good and positive change for our class the change and one of our few group utility skills in that it can fear more targets the application of this skill is to fear the enemy away from whoever they are attacking so once they cc break they are now a distance away from whoever they were attacking and now have to make up that ground now they are still on top of the person they were attacking upon cc breaking and free to attack whoever they were. This doesn't even synergies with the new surprise attack as it only strips some armor when attacking from the flank and this is the nightblades main cc in most cases. Removing the snare attached was good as no one in the game is a fan of the current snare meta but the fear and running away was pretty important to this skill and it's application in PvP.

5. Grim focus and it's morph's healing. This skill has essentially been gutted and I don't see many using this especially without the buffs of minor berserk and endurance. The heal being so low after battle scaling in PvP if you want this to be a form of healing that's actually usable you need to remove the 7 meter distance in which you can get the heal because ever since the nerf with the long cast delay it is always dodged in combat and seen coming within the "7 meter distance", this skill at this point will need to get reworked entirely some how either by removing the delay and allowing the bow to be shot instantly again while lowering the overall damage on the skill to get the heal consistently or just allowing it to get the heal but remove the 7 meter distance. The stamina morph getting the 10 increase seconds to the duration is pretty bad as well if anything it should be the same duration as the magicka morph but maybe add a debuff like minor defile or even mangle would see more use then 10 increased seconds on a buff that doesn't apply and buffs anymore.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler