Worst Race ?

Izaki

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

In PvE Bosmer are crap. Yes. Never said the opposite.

@Izaki
Good that we can agree on that. This is more or less the biggest reason why I think that Orcs are way superior. Bosmer can only do one type of content well while Orcs can do both.
Since I don't exactly know how armor prevents damage from happening, I can't really tell how much bonus health 2310 poison resistance equates to. But for the walking vs sprint, I'd disagree. I only find myself walking over running when I use major expedition and some builds just don't allow for that (stamplar). When I am in a hurry of course. When I am not in a hurry, I won't dodgeroll to get those additional 10% though.
Anyway, I think we have pretty much made our points now. Since you have a different view on things, I'd like to know what you think of my suggestion further up to change Hunter's Eye (and the Argonian passives if you have an opinion on that).

Link is here.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Well you can't use any skills while sprinting which is why I consider the overall speed more important than just sprint speed. Since you can move faster while still healing/damaging/buffing on a Bosmer than an Orc basically. Another thing actually: if you use a bow, when you dodge roll you get 40% movement speed which is pretty neat, like "killing 3 birds with one stone". But anyway.

As for the Bosmer passives, it kind of depends I guess. It would definitely make them more viable in PvE, so that would probably good there. Somewhat of a PvP nerf though, since you have less on demand penetration. Half the people would be happy, the other half would be mad! I don't really have an opinion on whether its better or worse though

Never had a Lizard, so I don't really know what their passives were, but from taking a quick look at the changes you're proposing, seems a bit overthought for racial passives and a bit too "different" from other races.

rossk25

For me personally I would say argonian come first, purely cause other races can do what they can do, but better. Altmer will make better healers due to Max mag and nords will make better tanks due to their health passives. The potion passive is great for resource management, but that's it for argonian.

Bosmer come in at a close second purely due to them removing the only characteristic of the bosmer race. Sneak.

My favourite have character has always been a sneaky bow welding bosmer since the main games, now it just doesn't work.
I recently got in to eso playing on pc and now levelling up a bosmer warden. I decided to make him a mag healer purely cause that extra stamp helps me to roll dog & heal for the increase in spell penetration and allows me to avoid dodge incoming dmg. Bosmer don't make serious stam builds any more. Plus light armer helps them sprint with reduced cost.

These classes need a rework as they currently are. Cause now they don't have anything going for them.

Ratzkifal

Izaki wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Izaki wrote: »

In PvE Bosmer are crap. Yes. Never said the opposite.

@Izaki
Good that we can agree on that. This is more or less the biggest reason why I think that Orcs are way superior. Bosmer can only do one type of content well while Orcs can do both.
Since I don't exactly know how armor prevents damage from happening, I can't really tell how much bonus health 2310 poison resistance equates to. But for the walking vs sprint, I'd disagree. I only find myself walking over running when I use major expedition and some builds just don't allow for that (stamplar). When I am in a hurry of course. When I am not in a hurry, I won't dodgeroll to get those additional 10% though.
Anyway, I think we have pretty much made our points now. Since you have a different view on things, I'd like to know what you think of my suggestion further up to change Hunter's Eye (and the Argonian passives if you have an opinion on that).

Link is here.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

As for the Bosmer passives, it kind of depends I guess. It would definitely make them more viable in PvE, so that would probably good there. Somewhat of a PvP nerf though, since you have less on demand penetration. Half the people would be happy, the other half would be mad! I don't really have an opinion on whether its better or worse though

Never had a Lizard, so I don't really know what their passives were, but from taking a quick look at the changes you're proposing, seems a bit overthought for racial passives and a bit too "different" from other races.

I appreciate your input. I am not sure on the penetration value myself yet. I was just thinking that ZOS chose the 1500 thinking that the low uptime would make it balanced and count it as 0.5 item set boni, so I concluded that perhaps half would be a good compromise that wouldn't screw Dunmer or Orcs over and make Bosmer too strong. I calculated it to be more or less the 6.5 item set boni ZOS wanted.

The Argonians are very different indeed, but that's also something I like about them. It reflects well that they are not quite like the other races. They adapt to their surrounding, they have strong regenerative abilities, they are resistant to both poison and disease and they are known to be great alchemists. I don't exactly know how ZOS weighed the Argonian boni as "item set boni", but I assumed the potion passive counted as 1 and the healing done passive counted as 3 with the resistances counting as 0.5 because it would only count as 1 if it was physical resistance. Calculating what I gave them, I got to 7 item set boni, which is alright considering that they are more oriented towards healing and have mainly conditionals.

darkblue5

Redguard was gutted as a stam dps (worse than wood elf on most specs) and has by far the least utility. Despite being "what other classes were balanced around."

Redguard received by one of the bigger nerfs with some of the least opposition. High elves had defenders while the were the top dps nerfed from even more op. Argonians are still getting posts arguing for the to be buffed in PVE when that'll likely resuslt in the same OP PVP argonians.

Meanwhile Redguard went from hands down the top stam dps race to the third best ahead of imperial and nord which really are both tank races. I mean, High Elves went from #1 mag dps to #1 mag dps during PTS and there were a billion posts QQing about the stam restore XD . Yet High Elves weren't even #1 mag dps on live!

Yet no one stood up for reduard and now there is no niche that makes sense for Redguard. Wonder why there was a lot less support for Redguards?

Ratzkifal

darkblue5 wrote: »

Redguard was gutted as a stam dps (worse than wood elf on most specs) and has by far the least utility. Despite being "what other classes were balanced around."

Redguard received by one of the bigger nerfs with some of the least opposition. High elves had defenders while the were the top dps nerfed from even more op. Argonians are still getting posts arguing for the to be buffed in PVE when that'll likely resuslt in the same OP PVP argonians.

Meanwhile Redguard went from hands down the top stam dps race to the third best ahead of imperial and nord which really are both tank races. I mean, High Elves went from #1 mag dps to #1 mag dps during PTS and there were a billion posts QQing about the stam restore XD . Yet High Elves weren't even #1 mag dps on live!

Yet no one stood up for reduard and now there is no niche that makes sense for Redguard. Wonder why there was a lot less support for Redguards?

@darkblue5 Well, I'd say 8% lower weapon ult cost is not nothing. Redguards are stronger on tanks now than they have been before. After the purple food nerfs, they will be more competitive again as getting sustain means sacrficing damage for Orcs and Dunmer. I think the Redguard changes were pretty much fine. Altmer and Bosmer can complain about lore, Argonians can complain about lore AND performance. Redguards are still weapon masters and not a bad choice for stam builds. Also, I suspect that a large portion of the Redguard playerbase was just trying to be BiS and didn't care too much beyond that.

That being said, what do you think of my idea (further up) on how to fix the Argonian racials? I feel like I made it so that they wouldn't return to the old problems of being OP in PvP, but I might not have the full picture.

darkblue5

@Ratzkifal looks pretty op actually even if it is slightly more niche for builds. Argonians are still pretty good in PvP and have their niche in builds. I'd rather see them gain a little by boosting max stats. The extra max stats would synergize well with their potion passive without increasing the max burst sustain.

JobooAGS

Ratzkifal wrote: »

darkblue5 wrote: »

Redguard was gutted as a stam dps (worse than wood elf on most specs) and has by far the least utility. Despite being "what other classes were balanced around."

Redguard received by one of the bigger nerfs with some of the least opposition. High elves had defenders while the were the top dps nerfed from even more op. Argonians are still getting posts arguing for the to be buffed in PVE when that'll likely resuslt in the same OP PVP argonians.

Meanwhile Redguard went from hands down the top stam dps race to the third best ahead of imperial and nord which really are both tank races. I mean, High Elves went from #1 mag dps to #1 mag dps during PTS and there were a billion posts QQing about the stam restore XD . Yet High Elves weren't even #1 mag dps on live!

Yet no one stood up for reduard and now there is no niche that makes sense for Redguard. Wonder why there was a lot less support for Redguards?

@darkblue5 Well, I'd say 8% lower weapon ult cost is not nothing. Redguards are stronger on tanks now than they have been before. After the purple food nerfs, they will be more competitive again as getting sustain means sacrficing damage for Orcs and Dunmer. I think the Redguard changes were pretty much fine. Altmer and Bosmer can complain about lore, Argonians can complain about lore AND performance. Redguards are still weapon masters and not a bad choice for stam builds. Also, I suspect that a large portion of the Redguard playerbase was just trying to be BiS and didn't care too much beyond that.

That being said, what do you think of my idea (further up) on how to fix the Argonian racials? I feel like I made it so that they wouldn't return to the old problems of being OP in PvP, but I might not have the full picture.

Redguard is the only race that don't have some form of dmg resistance or hp bonus and the snare reduction at its multiplicative state is essentially useless, more so if you have snare removal.

Orc has dmg hp, hp regen and sprint speed/cost reduction

Bosmer has movement speed, stam regen that is not only is affected by multipliers resulting in insane numbers, but always ticks unless sprinting or blocking and poison resists (there is more poison dmg than you think) and argueably, more dmg in pvp. But I do agree bosmer should have gotten a stealth reduction bonus rather than the reverse. maybe a flat pen bonus and max magicka in exchange for some stam too.

wedgebert

JobooAGS wrote: »

Bosmer has movement speed, stam regen that is not only is affected by multipliers resulting in insane numbers, but always ticks unless sprinting or blocking and poison resists (there is more poison dmg than you think) and argueably, more dmg in pvp. But I do agree bosmer should have gotten a stealth reduction bonus rather than the reverse. maybe a flat pen bonus and max magicka in exchange for some stam too.

The problem with the movement speed increase for Bosmer is that, outside of PvP, it's practically never up. And activating it in PvE completely negates your regen and costs more stamina than you would have used just sprinting. So it's a DPS loss and a speed loss for anything more than a quick reposition.

Using Hunter's Eye offensively is basically "press X to fail". No other passive is like that.