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Minor Mangle on NB Incap Stun is actually another nerf
Yiko
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Given the onslaught of NB nerfs this patch, I was curious about the functionality of Incapacitating Strike's Minor Mangle. For those that don't know, Incapacitating Strike is losing Major Defile in all instances and is gaining a conditional Minor Mangle application on a target stunned by the ability for the duration that the stun lasts, which requires at least 120 ultimate to activate. Minor Mangle is a debuff on the target that reduces Maximum Health by 10%.
I was wondering the following:
Let's say my Light Attack, Incap, Bash brings someone down to 9k health out of 20k while I have Poison Injection rolling on them. Minor Mangle debuff doesn't subtract from Current Health I've read, only Max Health, so it subtracts 2k from their Max Health (10% of 20k). Does this mean that my Poison Injection damage (and other % based execute damage) will now be calculated using that adjusted Max Health of 18k, meaning that my Poison Injection and Executioner will do less damage, seeing as the target would be at 50% Health technically once Minor Mangle is applied, rather than the 45% they'd be at without Minor Mangle? Did we lose buffs that helped secure kills like Major Fracture, Minor Berserk, and Major Defile to be given a compensatory conditional "buff" in Minor Mangle during an Incap stun that will actually end up hurting our burst even more?
So I did some testing. I first confirmed that the Major Fracture from Surprise Attack on live applied after the damage, in order to gauge debuff system consistency. I heard that Minor Mangle and Incapacitating Strike had the same functionality on the PTS, but I do not have access to test it currently (and would appreciate if someone did). I expected the same result with Minor Mangle and Pulsar on Live servers, though that did not turn out to be the case.
I used an enemy type that with 41,957 Max Health that I hit with my Pulsar and did 4,022. He was left with 33,740 Health out of 37,762 Max Health. The difference between 41,957 and 37,762 is 4,195 (which is 10% of the target's Max Health), and then the difference between 37,762 and 33,740 is 4022, which is what my Pulsar hit for. Minor Mangle applied first, but of course any Light Attack or Heavy Attack +corresponding Enchant damage will eat into that Minor Mangle damage. However, the Enchant activated by Pulsar was also calculated after Minor Mangle.
Next was the big test:
If % damage calculations rely on what is shown as the Max Health or if it uses a value that is stored as Max Health before Minor Mangle or Minor Toughness adjustments.
As mentioned previously, the mob had 41,957 Max Health before Impulse and can be seen to have 37,762 Max Health after Minor Mangle is applied. I damaged the mob down to 7,988 current Health, or 21.15% of adjusted Max Health, a level where having a Mage's Wrath active on it would trigger the Mage's Wrath execute without Minor Mangle. Mage's Wrath did not execute. Mage's Wrath executes at <= 20% Health. The mob would be at 7,988/41,957 = 19.04% Health without Minor Mangle.
This ultimately means that Execute damage uses current or adjusted Max Health values and that Minor Mangle reduces your execute window on a target with abilities like Killer's Blade/Impale and Endless Fury and reduces your execute damage with abilities like Poison Injection, Executioner, Dual Wield bleeds, Whirling Blades, etc.
So when is Minor Mangle on Incapacitating Strike stun a buff? It depends on when Minor Mangle is applied.
If Minor Mangle is applied before Incap damage (which I have heard it is NOT): it is a buff for players who open with Incapacitating Strike on essentially a Max Health target or players who wanted to continue to attack an essentially adjusted Max Health target who has been healed and is still in Incap.
If Minor Mangle is applied after Incap: Incap damage will generally soak up whatever damage Minor Mangle would have done to Max Health target, outside of shielded targets. Again, it could also be used to continue attacks on an essentially adjusted Max Health target who is still stunned on the ground by Incap.
None of these are particularly opportune times to be using a NB's burst, especially considering recent offensive nerfs. Outside of these fringe and honestly unviable burst circumstances, this Minor Mangle debuff is a NERF to the player casting the Incapacitating Strike. People strategically using this morph are going to be PUNISHED for a debuff they place on the target.
Is ZOS aware of this? I feel like they tried to give the Incapacitating Strike a little extra love at 120+ ult usage to compensate for the loss of Major Defile at all ult costs, but they simply didn't know better. Stamina AND Magicka NBs were using Incap prior to these changes, but now it's looking like we'll be jumping ship to Soul Harvest.
This change on top of the loss of Major Fracture, Minor Berserk, Major Defile accompanied with ZERO Medium Armor buffs and no overperforming Stamina Heavy Armor set nerfs (actually Heavy users in general were buffed, because EVERY character now gets Major Expedition & Root+Snare Immunity & Minor Force + additional block bubble from the Psijic passive, so they can run Rally over Forward Momentum for additional healing after many sources of Major Defile were removed and Befoul CP was reduced) and no reported fixes on Shade teleport, Undo (ULTIMATE ability from an Expansion), or Combat Bug has REALLY got me wondering what is going on.
I was wondering the following:
Let's say my Light Attack, Incap, Bash brings someone down to 9k health out of 20k while I have Poison Injection rolling on them. Minor Mangle debuff doesn't subtract from Current Health I've read, only Max Health, so it subtracts 2k from their Max Health (10% of 20k). Does this mean that my Poison Injection damage (and other % based execute damage) will now be calculated using that adjusted Max Health of 18k, meaning that my Poison Injection and Executioner will do less damage, seeing as the target would be at 50% Health technically once Minor Mangle is applied, rather than the 45% they'd be at without Minor Mangle? Did we lose buffs that helped secure kills like Major Fracture, Minor Berserk, and Major Defile to be given a compensatory conditional "buff" in Minor Mangle during an Incap stun that will actually end up hurting our burst even more?
So I did some testing. I first confirmed that the Major Fracture from Surprise Attack on live applied after the damage, in order to gauge debuff system consistency. I heard that Minor Mangle and Incapacitating Strike had the same functionality on the PTS, but I do not have access to test it currently (and would appreciate if someone did). I expected the same result with Minor Mangle and Pulsar on Live servers, though that did not turn out to be the case.
I used an enemy type that with 41,957 Max Health that I hit with my Pulsar and did 4,022. He was left with 33,740 Health out of 37,762 Max Health. The difference between 41,957 and 37,762 is 4,195 (which is 10% of the target's Max Health), and then the difference between 37,762 and 33,740 is 4022, which is what my Pulsar hit for. Minor Mangle applied first, but of course any Light Attack or Heavy Attack +corresponding Enchant damage will eat into that Minor Mangle damage. However, the Enchant activated by Pulsar was also calculated after Minor Mangle.
Next was the big test:
If % damage calculations rely on what is shown as the Max Health or if it uses a value that is stored as Max Health before Minor Mangle or Minor Toughness adjustments.
As mentioned previously, the mob had 41,957 Max Health before Impulse and can be seen to have 37,762 Max Health after Minor Mangle is applied. I damaged the mob down to 7,988 current Health, or 21.15% of adjusted Max Health, a level where having a Mage's Wrath active on it would trigger the Mage's Wrath execute without Minor Mangle. Mage's Wrath did not execute. Mage's Wrath executes at <= 20% Health. The mob would be at 7,988/41,957 = 19.04% Health without Minor Mangle.
This ultimately means that Execute damage uses current or adjusted Max Health values and that Minor Mangle reduces your execute window on a target with abilities like Killer's Blade/Impale and Endless Fury and reduces your execute damage with abilities like Poison Injection, Executioner, Dual Wield bleeds, Whirling Blades, etc.
So when is Minor Mangle on Incapacitating Strike stun a buff? It depends on when Minor Mangle is applied.
If Minor Mangle is applied before Incap damage (which I have heard it is NOT): it is a buff for players who open with Incapacitating Strike on essentially a Max Health target or players who wanted to continue to attack an essentially adjusted Max Health target who has been healed and is still in Incap.
If Minor Mangle is applied after Incap: Incap damage will generally soak up whatever damage Minor Mangle would have done to Max Health target, outside of shielded targets. Again, it could also be used to continue attacks on an essentially adjusted Max Health target who is still stunned on the ground by Incap.
None of these are particularly opportune times to be using a NB's burst, especially considering recent offensive nerfs. Outside of these fringe and honestly unviable burst circumstances, this Minor Mangle debuff is a NERF to the player casting the Incapacitating Strike. People strategically using this morph are going to be PUNISHED for a debuff they place on the target.
Is ZOS aware of this? I feel like they tried to give the Incapacitating Strike a little extra love at 120+ ult usage to compensate for the loss of Major Defile at all ult costs, but they simply didn't know better. Stamina AND Magicka NBs were using Incap prior to these changes, but now it's looking like we'll be jumping ship to Soul Harvest.
This change on top of the loss of Major Fracture, Minor Berserk, Major Defile accompanied with ZERO Medium Armor buffs and no overperforming Stamina Heavy Armor set nerfs (actually Heavy users in general were buffed, because EVERY character now gets Major Expedition & Root+Snare Immunity & Minor Force + additional block bubble from the Psijic passive, so they can run Rally over Forward Momentum for additional healing after many sources of Major Defile were removed and Befoul CP was reduced) and no reported fixes on Shade teleport, Undo (ULTIMATE ability from an Expansion), or Combat Bug has REALLY got me wondering what is going on.
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Yakidafi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Yea minor Mangle is only effective if used at an enemy at ax health, so you will have to open your combo with incap to gain the effectiveness. And that is also the only time Mangle will have any effect since it only last while the target is stunned.
Compared to dbos
dbos about same initial dmg, adds dot, 3%wpn dmg, aoe.
Incap 20% dmg increase, 2% crit rating
I am not sure if the 20% dmg increase burst will outshine dbos now.Edited by Yakidafi on April 17, 2019 3:20AMMoons and sands shall be your guide and path.
PC EU/NA1 -
imenace✭✭✭make minor mangle apply BEFORE incap damage, everything is fine with me. @ZOS_GinaBruno0 -
Strider__Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Yea minor Mangle is only effective if used at an enemy at ax health, so you will have to open your combo with incap to gain the effectiveness. And that is also the only time Mangle will have any effect since it only last while the target is stunned.
Compared to dbos
dbos about same initial dmg, adds dot, 3%wpn dmg, aoe.
Incap 20% dmg increase, 2% crit rating
I am not sure if the 20% dmg increase burst will outshine dbos now.
It doesn't. The DoT from DBoS actually outshines the extra 20% damage you get from Death Stroke.1 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭
Yeah, the fact that it's only beneficial when the target is at Max Health means that's it's almost never beneficial for any NB that plays cerebrally, which admittedly most do not. The fact that it decreases Execute windows and reduces execute/% based health damage WHLE the target is stunned is actually an issue that should be solved, though, for previously stated reasons. Perhaps damage calculations need to reference un-adjusted Max Health, rather than Max Health that's been adjusted because of Minor Mangle or Minor Toughness.Yea minor Mangle is only effective if used at an enemy at ax health, so you will have to open your combo with incap to gain the effectiveness. And that is also the only time Mangle will have any effect since it only last while the target is stunned.make minor mangle apply BEFORE incap damage, everything is fine with me.
Spotted the player that was coasting by on the high NB skill floor. You're not going to set up any DoTs or debuffs on a target before Incapping, not even channel a Heavy Attack? Just an Incap from stealth presumably? Can't say I'm surprisedIt doesn't. The DoT from DBoS actually outshines the extra 20% damage you get from Death Stroke.
Yeah, it's looking like DBoS is the way to go. Or if you're playing noCP, you could just use the other morph, Soul Harvest, which retained Major Defile and just be sure to fear or Surprise Attack stun for cc. The damage type on the ult wouldn't really matter, since there's no CP scaling. Would just have to drop Penetration sets like Spriggan's for the new Shieldbreaker or something like that.
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