Update 22 StamDK

Davadin

What's my spammable now? PTS still downloading, but let's discuss.

MagDK, well, what else is there to say? Firey boy there is having a second xmas, they're getting the good stuff!

But StamDK here and I'm using DW + 2H. Green claw no longer spammable. Rending no longer spammable. So........... Flurry?

Why is there still no DK-Stam-spammable skill?

How's Uppercut now with 200ms less global cooldown and 14% nerf?

juhislihis19

Abandon StamDK altogether. No hope left. Good job ZOS.

Mariusghost84

Why isnt claw spammable any more? What about rending slashes?

Harrdarrzarr

DK's have no class spammable for stamina builds. Both flurry and one of the morphs from hidden blade got a buff damage wise, so they might be good options now.

Chilly-McFreeze

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Why isnt claw spammable any more? What about rending slashes?

Rending shouldn’t be a spam anyway. What do you think, will the prolonged time between initial hit and first tick nerf it’s use as a spam?

Davadin

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Abandon StamDK altogether. No hope left. Good job ZOS.

that's probably what i'll do once Elswyr hits live. MagDK. Brings back old memories...

Davadin

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Why isnt claw spammable any more? What about rending slashes?

both are tweaked to be a fully DoT skill by removing the first tick, which makes it "bursty" and with the cheap costs, was spammable.

Harrdarrzarr wrote: »

DK's have no class spammable for stamina builds. Both flurry and one of the morphs from hidden blade got a buff damage wise, so they might be good options now.

funny how Hidden Blade is already strong, i expected a nerf, it's gotten a buff.

will try Flurry in PTS. damn thing still not finish downloading.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Why isnt claw spammable any more? What about rending slashes?

Rending shouldn’t be a spam anyway. What do you think, will the prolonged time between initial hit and first tick nerf it’s use as a spam?

currently with a first immediate tick, every DW stam build use it as a spammable skill.

reprosal

Davadin wrote: »

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Why isnt claw spammable any more? What about rending slashes?

both are tweaked to be a fully DoT skill by removing the first tick, which makes it "bursty" and with the cheap costs, was spammable.

Harrdarrzarr wrote: »

DK's have no class spammable for stamina builds. Both flurry and one of the morphs from hidden blade got a buff damage wise, so they might be good options now.

funny how Hidden Blade is already strong, i expected a nerf, it's gotten a buff.

will try Flurry in PTS. damn thing still not finish downloading.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Why isnt claw spammable any more? What about rending slashes?

Rending shouldn’t be a spam anyway. What do you think, will the prolonged time between initial hit and first tick nerf it’s use as a spam?

currently with a first immediate tick, every DW stam build use it as a spammable skill.

Stamblade, stamplar and stamden want to have a word with you.

Davadin

reprosal wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Why isnt claw spammable any more? What about rending slashes?

both are tweaked to be a fully DoT skill by removing the first tick, which makes it "bursty" and with the cheap costs, was spammable.

Harrdarrzarr wrote: »

DK's have no class spammable for stamina builds. Both flurry and one of the morphs from hidden blade got a buff damage wise, so they might be good options now.

funny how Hidden Blade is already strong, i expected a nerf, it's gotten a buff.

will try Flurry in PTS. damn thing still not finish downloading.

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

Why isnt claw spammable any more? What about rending slashes?

Rending shouldn’t be a spam anyway. What do you think, will the prolonged time between initial hit and first tick nerf it’s use as a spam?

currently with a first immediate tick, every DW stam build use it as a spammable skill.

Stamblade, stamplar and stamden want to have a word with you.

about?

reprosal

None use rending slash as a spammable.

Browiseth

dunno if anyone notice but flurry got a 21% damage increase, and it was already a pretty decent skill

oh but i guess it isn't green enough so it doesn't count

John_Falstaff

reprosal wrote: »

None use rending slash as a spammable.

Mm-m, maybe it has something to do with all of the above having good in-class spammables. Unlike, you know... stamDKs or stamsorcs.

@Browiseth , Flurry is plain terrible. First, it's still bugged (final tick not buffed by CPs). Second, it's a channel, and with nasty quirks at that - it has to be kept on target whole duration of the channel, if you're targeting a moving mob, you have to aim Flurry like a flashlight all the time, else the last hit won't land. It makes for unpleasantly quirky rotation, especially if you're relying on the last tick to proc Cruel Flurry buff, it only appears if the last hit have landed (for the same reason you can't block-cancel Flurry, you won't get part of the hits). Damage increase is only part of work that has to be done on that skill.

Browiseth

John_Falstaff wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

None use rending slash as a spammable.

Mm-m, maybe it has something to do with all of the above having good in-class spammables. Unlike, you know... stamDKs or stamsorcs.

@Browiseth , Flurry is plain terrible. First, it's still bugged (final tick not buffed by CPs). Second, it's a channel, and with nasty quirks at that - it has to be kept on target whole duration of the channel, if you're targeting a moving mob, you have to aim Flurry like a flashlight all the time, else the last hit won't land. It makes for unpleasantly quirky rotation, especially if you're relying on the last tick to proc Cruel Flurry buff, it only appears if the last hit have landed (for the same reason you can't block-cancel Flurry, you won't get part of the hits). Damage increase is only part of work that has to be done on that skill.

been using flurry on my stam sorc for, quite literally years now. never had any issues with the fact it's a channel. it's not the best, but it is about to get better next patch.

John_Falstaff

@Browiseth , it's not like stamsorcs have a choice there (though rending made a good spammable for them - while it lasted anyway). I tried Flurry on sDK many times, I can compare it with other spammables, and the comparison is never in favor of Flurry, even though I wanted to try and like it - and no, it never was about damage per se.

Davadin

Browiseth wrote: »

dunno if anyone notice but flurry got a 21% damage increase, and it was already a pretty decent skill

oh but i guess it isn't green enough so it doesn't count

i wanted to love Flurry, I think it might work well. Also, reddit user says it's buffed by Deadly Strike (aoe +15%) set, so if it's true, i'm willing to give it a shot again.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

reprosal wrote: »

None use rending slash as a spammable.

Mm-m, maybe it has something to do with all of the above having good in-class spammables. Unlike, you know... stamDKs or stamsorcs.

@Browiseth , Flurry is plain terrible. First, it's still bugged (final tick not buffed by CPs). Second, it's a channel, and with nasty quirks at that - it has to be kept on target whole duration of the channel, if you're targeting a moving mob, you have to aim Flurry like a flashlight all the time, else the last hit won't land. It makes for unpleasantly quirky rotation, especially if you're relying on the last tick to proc Cruel Flurry buff, it only appears if the last hit have landed (for the same reason you can't block-cancel Flurry, you won't get part of the hits). Damage increase is only part of work that has to be done on that skill.

been a long time since i use it, but i NEVER had to stay on target during the whole channeling time. that's why i like it. it's just doesn't have enough damage, and yes the last heal sometimes broken.

do u know need to be on target the whole channelling time?

reprosal wrote: »

None use rending slash as a spammable.

alright, my bad. it's still a very good spammable right now in live.

Alucardo

Meanwhile stam sorcs with no class based DoTs, major fracture, or ultimates are like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ochsinator

Alucardo wrote: »

Meanwhile stam sorcs with no class based DoTs, major fracture, or ultimates are like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I get that stam sorc has nothing for stam but it is a sorcerer like it’s supposed to be a magic using caster. Like that’s the aesthetic. For the dragon knight is supposed to be a KNIGHT using mele and brawling.

ochsinator

Honestly ridiculously frustrating that the mag dk gets so much while stam dk gets so little. They should have gave us stam armor or stam wings or STAM WHIP or stam inhale or stam petrify at least have the following scale off max attribute. Honestly I love the aesthetics of the dk I do like noxious breath and stam claw but I believe we need one more stam morph to a viable skill I really like the idea of stam inhale.

Chilly-McFreeze

ochsinator wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Meanwhile stam sorcs with no class based DoTs, major fracture, or ultimates are like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I get that stam sorc has nothing for stam but it is a sorcerer like it’s supposed to be a magic using caster. Like that’s the aesthetic. For the dragon knight is supposed to be a KNIGHT using mele and brawling.

ochsinator wrote: »

Honestly ridiculously frustrating that the mag dk gets so much while stam dk gets so little. They should have gave us stam armor or stam wings or STAM WHIP or stam inhale or stam petrify at least have the following scale off max attribute. Honestly I love the aesthetics of the dk I do like noxious breath and stam claw but I believe we need one more stam morph to a viable skill I really like the idea of stam inhale.

Man, hypocrisy at it's finest.

John_Falstaff

@Davadin , yup, I tried, particularly when I wanted to adopt Cruel Flurry rotation with vMA DW. It highlights the issue more than most, if target is moving, the last jab wouldn't land and the buff (it has very distinct animation) wouldn't appear. It's not just the last heal - it's the whole damage tick (or more than one) that often doesn't land.

Davadin

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ochsinator wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Meanwhile stam sorcs with no class based DoTs, major fracture, or ultimates are like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I get that stam sorc has nothing for stam but it is a sorcerer like it’s supposed to be a magic using caster. Like that’s the aesthetic. For the dragon knight is supposed to be a KNIGHT using mele and brawling.

ochsinator wrote: »

Honestly ridiculously frustrating that the mag dk gets so much while stam dk gets so little. They should have gave us stam armor or stam wings or STAM WHIP or stam inhale or stam petrify at least have the following scale off max attribute. Honestly I love the aesthetics of the dk I do like noxious breath and stam claw but I believe we need one more stam morph to a viable skill I really like the idea of stam inhale.

Man, hypocrisy at it's finest.

not really.

i get why you said it. but i also get it why he said it too.

DK is technically should be a class that has melee range engagements. the skills support this theory. the passives. yes we have a few range and gap closer, but it's clear that the intention is DK is a melee class.

Sorcs is not.

is it REALLY hypocrisy to cry when DK got no stamina (the intended melee resource) skills, yet Sorceres class not getting it seems more acceptable?

John_Falstaff wrote: »

@Davadin , yup, I tried, particularly when I wanted to adopt Cruel Flurry rotation with vMA DW. It highlights the issue more than most, if target is moving, the last jab wouldn't land and the buff (it has very distinct animation) wouldn't appear. It's not just the last heal - it's the whole damage tick (or more than one) that often doesn't land.

aaargh........ i hope they can fix that.

or is it intended that last tick wouldn't count if not on target? kinda like Uppercut's 1-sec channel?

ochsinator

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ochsinator wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Meanwhile stam sorcs with no class based DoTs, major fracture, or ultimates are like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I get that stam sorc has nothing for stam but it is a sorcerer like it’s supposed to be a magic using caster. Like that’s the aesthetic. For the dragon knight is supposed to be a KNIGHT using mele and brawling.

ochsinator wrote: »

Honestly ridiculously frustrating that the mag dk gets so much while stam dk gets so little. They should have gave us stam armor or stam wings or STAM WHIP or stam inhale or stam petrify at least have the following scale off max attribute. Honestly I love the aesthetics of the dk I do like noxious breath and stam claw but I believe we need one more stam morph to a viable skill I really like the idea of stam inhale.

Man, hypocrisy at it's finest.

I don’t mean to be hypocritical I think sorc should get more stam morphs as well... but come on it’s a dragonKNIGHT man dragonKNIGHT you’re supposed to hit people in the face

John_Falstaff

@Davadin , hard to say; they broke Uppercut rather recently in that regard (it didn't require such targeting, people say, though I hardly used it myself - the posts about it on forum started appearing after Murkmire or about then, I think), but I thought they have fixed it afterwards. It's probably same sort of issue as implementation goes. Here's hoping they'll do proper work on the skill instead of just changing damage.

Ragnarock41

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Abandon StamDK altogether. No hope left. Good job ZOS.

Not trying to complain but I'm also thinking of rerolling to magDk. They now have not one but two very viable spammable options. And I've never been a fan of flurry myself. ANd why bother using uppercut when molten whip destroys it in comparission?

Liww

Alucardo wrote: »

Meanwhile stam sorcs with no class based DoTs, major fracture, or ultimates are like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

^

will you stop saying *** I agree with, i'm running out of ^'s

psychotic13

StamDK is fine tbh.

John_Falstaff

psychotic13 wrote: »

StamDK is fine tbh.

Great argument there. I especially liked your reasoning about how sDK can get decent sustain, how can it provided Minor Brutality without inflicting a self-nerf by using Igneous Weapons (really clever solution you've offered, I didn't think about that), how sDK can keep sustain and at the same time hold onto ultimate to drop it as tactically appropriate and not off cooldown; and oh, that's a nice point how our one-and-a-half stamina morphs is a good thing, too. Great insights all.

Masel

sDK got more interesting this patch. The seething fury passive of molten whip also grants weapon damage, so you can double bar whip, and gain 375 WD constantly when you align your skills in the right order. I've been parsing around 80k, which is in line with stamplar and stamsorc, and just slightly behind stamblade on the 21m dummy. Stamcro and stamden are ahead of these, both parsing at roughly 85k with the same gear and decuxring the pet crit bug.

Consider that I didnt use the ultimate best ST gear, but a more convenient setup with slightly facilitated rotations to reduce my error rate.

John_Falstaff

Masel wrote: »

sDK got more interesting this patch. The seething fury passive of molten whip also grants weapon damage, so you can double bar whip, and gain 375 WD constantly when you align your skills in the right order. I've been parsing around 80k, which is in line with stamplar and stamsorc, and just slightly behind stamblade on the 21m dummy. Stamcro and stamden are ahead of these, both parsing at roughly 85k with the same gear and decuxring the pet crit bug.

Consider that I didnt use the ultimate best ST gear, but a more convenient setup with slightly facilitated rotations to reduce my error rate.

You have to find a place for the skill to slot just for passive. What was your skill layout during the parse? What have you been using as a spammable?

Browiseth

ochsinator wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

ochsinator wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Meanwhile stam sorcs with no class based DoTs, major fracture, or ultimates are like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I get that stam sorc has nothing for stam but it is a sorcerer like it’s supposed to be a magic using caster. Like that’s the aesthetic. For the dragon knight is supposed to be a KNIGHT using mele and brawling.

ochsinator wrote: »

Honestly ridiculously frustrating that the mag dk gets so much while stam dk gets so little. They should have gave us stam armor or stam wings or STAM WHIP or stam inhale or stam petrify at least have the following scale off max attribute. Honestly I love the aesthetics of the dk I do like noxious breath and stam claw but I believe we need one more stam morph to a viable skill I really like the idea of stam inhale.

Man, hypocrisy at it's finest.

I don’t mean to be hypocritical I think sorc should get more stam morphs as well... but come on it’s a dragonKNIGHT man dragonKNIGHT you’re supposed to hit people in the face

@ochsinator spell swords are a thing. why would you limit people's build creativity for such an arbitrary reason?

psychotic13

John_Falstaff wrote: »

psychotic13 wrote: »

StamDK is fine tbh.

Great argument there. I especially liked your reasoning about how sDK can get decent sustain, how can it provided Minor Brutality without inflicting a self-nerf by using Igneous Weapons (really clever solution you've offered, I didn't think about that), how sDK can keep sustain and at the same time hold onto ultimate to drop it as tactically appropriate and not off cooldown; and oh, that's a nice point how our one-and-a-half stamina morphs is a good thing, too. Great insights all.

Not even going to argue with you, in another thread i talk about how cauterize could be used on stamDK and it would be strong and you start telling me about DK Healers like that was ever the topic. Waste of time speaking to people like you.

And fyi if you cant sustain your DK in pvp with less than 1500 regen which is decent, then L2P bro. I play DK a hell of alot, youre obviously just amateur cause theyve been strong for a while.