Can we nuke bow/bow or at least spiders?

lassitershawn

EDIT: Just to be clear, nothing against bow/bow in principle, it seems cool. But the snipe part and the SPIDERS part seem dumb to me, personal opinion And I think spiders are cool just way overtuned.

Like... boring build with a channeled ability vastly exceeding everything else in damage potential? Yeah it takes some group synergy and unorthodox strats to pull it off but any endgame strat takes coordination. One spider synergy can literally do 400k damage on stamblade on live. One. Synergy. Keep the snipe nonsense to PvP plz thx. Keep it a good/viable build by all means but better than mag at ranged? lol. Imo should be a BIT more damage than ranged mag to account for being a bit less safe and obviously stamina (and mag DK) melee should out DPS it. The synergy seems to be a large part of the problem in any event... I feel like if there are any builds that don't deserve to be actual meta BiS DPS it is the builds that rely on spammable channels and far fewer other rotation elements (like boring af 2x pet HA spam sorc too and I'm a sorc DD main that *** is not fun).

satanio

lassitershawn wrote: »

Like... boring build with a channeled ability vastly exceeding everything else in damage potential? Yeah it takes some group synergy and unorthodox strats to pull it off but any endgame strat takes coordination. One spider synergy can literally do 400k damage on stamblade on live. One. Synergy. Keep the snipe nonsense to PvP plz thx. Keep it a good/viable build by all means but better than mag at ranged? lol. Imo should be a BIT more damage than ranged mag to account for being a bit less safe and obviously stamina (and mag DK) melee should out DPS it. The synergy seems to be a large part of the problem in any event... I feel like if there are any builds that don't deserve to be actual meta BiS DPS it is the builds that rely on spammable channels and far fewer other rotation elements (like boring af 2x pet HA spam sorc too and I'm a sorc DD main that *** is not fun).

Have you already tested bow/bow on PTS?
Snipe is getting nerfs, rotation will be a bit harder.
Spiders are ok.This spell is finally getting some attention.

TeIvanni

Yeah spiders should definitely not be doing 14k dps in trial settings.

Ratzkifal

Is that skill really so good? I know they recently made the synergy easier to use, but how does it actually perform. 400k is surely an exaggeration.

lassitershawn

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Is that skill really so good? I know they recently made the synergy easier to use, but how does it actually perform. 400k is surely an exaggeration.

Its not an exaggeration. Saw a raid parse from a friend with one synergy and borderline 400k damage. No atro synergy either. Stamsorcs could presumably put that at near 600k. It is an ABSURD amount of free DPS.

lassitershawn

satanio wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Like... boring build with a channeled ability vastly exceeding everything else in damage potential? Yeah it takes some group synergy and unorthodox strats to pull it off but any endgame strat takes coordination. One spider synergy can literally do 400k damage on stamblade on live. One. Synergy. Keep the snipe nonsense to PvP plz thx. Keep it a good/viable build by all means but better than mag at ranged? lol. Imo should be a BIT more damage than ranged mag to account for being a bit less safe and obviously stamina (and mag DK) melee should out DPS it. The synergy seems to be a large part of the problem in any event... I feel like if there are any builds that don't deserve to be actual meta BiS DPS it is the builds that rely on spammable channels and far fewer other rotation elements (like boring af 2x pet HA spam sorc too and I'm a sorc DD main that *** is not fun).

Have you already tested bow/bow on PTS?
Snipe is getting nerfs, rotation will be a bit harder.
Spiders are ok.This spell is finally getting some attention.

Very minor nerf if at all after the changes to channels or whatever and the cast time reduc. Spiders can be a good skill without being so god tier. Like maybe 200k damage from a synergy instead of 400k? And maybe available to both mag and stam? If any unused skill needs a buff its scalding rune.

satanio

TeIvanni wrote: »

Yeah spiders should definitely not be doing 14k dps in trial settings.

Why not? That's why bow/bow has earned it's place among ranged dps.
Remove that and we'll be right there where we'd been. In trial with only magicka ranged dps.

lassitershawn

satanio wrote: »

TeIvanni wrote: »

Yeah spiders should definitely not be doing 14k dps in trial settings.

Why not? That's why bow/bow has earned it's place among ranged dps.
Remove that and we'll be right there where we'd been. In trial with only magicka ranged dps.

Yeah there can be a middle ground though. I said keep it viable but its pretty ridiculous right now. The spider moreso than bow/bow tbh. And mag DPS is like at least much harder than snipe chaining so by a difficulty to reward metric bow really doesn't deserve its success rn. Keep bow/bow viable, but not oppressive. Keep spiders viable, but not oppressive.

Olupajmibanan

The Spiders do 20k dps on Bow/Bow Stamsorc with Daedric Prey

Qbiken

satanio wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Like... boring build with a channeled ability vastly exceeding everything else in damage potential? Yeah it takes some group synergy and unorthodox strats to pull it off but any endgame strat takes coordination. One spider synergy can literally do 400k damage on stamblade on live. One. Synergy. Keep the snipe nonsense to PvP plz thx. Keep it a good/viable build by all means but better than mag at ranged? lol. Imo should be a BIT more damage than ranged mag to account for being a bit less safe and obviously stamina (and mag DK) melee should out DPS it. The synergy seems to be a large part of the problem in any event... I feel like if there are any builds that don't deserve to be actual meta BiS DPS it is the builds that rely on spammable channels and far fewer other rotation elements (like boring af 2x pet HA spam sorc too and I'm a sorc DD main that *** is not fun).

Have you already tested bow/bow on PTS?
Snipe is getting nerfs, rotation will be a bit harder.
Spiders are ok.This spell is finally getting some attention.

When a synergy makes up for 1/3 of your dps it's not balanced.

satanio

Qbiken wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Like... boring build with a channeled ability vastly exceeding everything else in damage potential? Yeah it takes some group synergy and unorthodox strats to pull it off but any endgame strat takes coordination. One spider synergy can literally do 400k damage on stamblade on live. One. Synergy. Keep the snipe nonsense to PvP plz thx. Keep it a good/viable build by all means but better than mag at ranged? lol. Imo should be a BIT more damage than ranged mag to account for being a bit less safe and obviously stamina (and mag DK) melee should out DPS it. The synergy seems to be a large part of the problem in any event... I feel like if there are any builds that don't deserve to be actual meta BiS DPS it is the builds that rely on spammable channels and far fewer other rotation elements (like boring af 2x pet HA spam sorc too and I'm a sorc DD main that *** is not fun).

Have you already tested bow/bow on PTS?
Snipe is getting nerfs, rotation will be a bit harder.
Spiders are ok.This spell is finally getting some attention.

When a synergy makes up for 1/3 of your dps it's not balanced.

1/5, don't exaggerate.

Runefang

lassitershawn wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

TeIvanni wrote: »

Yeah spiders should definitely not be doing 14k dps in trial settings.

Why not? That's why bow/bow has earned it's place among ranged dps.
Remove that and we'll be right there where we'd been. In trial with only magicka ranged dps.

Yeah there can be a middle ground though. I said keep it viable but its pretty ridiculous right now. The spider moreso than bow/bow tbh. And mag DPS is like at least much harder than snipe chaining so by a difficulty to reward metric bow really doesn't deserve its success rn. Keep bow/bow viable, but not oppressive. Keep spiders viable, but not oppressive.

The middle ground is surely bow/bow having more survivability and equal damage to mag dps. At least then everybody can bring their DPS toons into end-game trials.

lassitershawn

Runefang wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

TeIvanni wrote: »

Yeah spiders should definitely not be doing 14k dps in trial settings.

Why not? That's why bow/bow has earned it's place among ranged dps.
Remove that and we'll be right there where we'd been. In trial with only magicka ranged dps.

Yeah there can be a middle ground though. I said keep it viable but its pretty ridiculous right now. The spider moreso than bow/bow tbh. And mag DPS is like at least much harder than snipe chaining so by a difficulty to reward metric bow really doesn't deserve its success rn. Keep bow/bow viable, but not oppressive. Keep spiders viable, but not oppressive.

The middle ground is surely bow/bow having more survivability and equal damage to mag dps. At least then everybody can bring their DPS toons into end-game trials.

Uh how is that equal...? One should have more survivability and less damage and the other more damage and less survivability. If bow/bow had more survivability and equal damage why bring mag lol esp when stam gets the crazy spider stuff.

Ratzkifal

lassitershawn wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Is that skill really so good? I know they recently made the synergy easier to use, but how does it actually perform. 400k is surely an exaggeration.

Its not an exaggeration. Saw a raid parse from a friend with one synergy and borderline 400k damage. No atro synergy either. Stamsorcs could presumably put that at near 600k. It is an ABSURD amount of free DPS.

Time to do pledges then. My bow/bow worshipper of Namira (often associated with spiders) could use this skill
The skill is perfect for me and here I always thought it sucked.

Runefang

lassitershawn wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

TeIvanni wrote: »

Yeah spiders should definitely not be doing 14k dps in trial settings.

Why not? That's why bow/bow has earned it's place among ranged dps.
Remove that and we'll be right there where we'd been. In trial with only magicka ranged dps.

Yeah there can be a middle ground though. I said keep it viable but its pretty ridiculous right now. The spider moreso than bow/bow tbh. And mag DPS is like at least much harder than snipe chaining so by a difficulty to reward metric bow really doesn't deserve its success rn. Keep bow/bow viable, but not oppressive. Keep spiders viable, but not oppressive.

The middle ground is surely bow/bow having more survivability and equal damage to mag dps. At least then everybody can bring their DPS toons into end-game trials.

Uh how is that equal...? One should have more survivability and less damage and the other more damage and less survivability. If bow/bow had more survivability and equal damage why bring mag lol esp when stam gets the crazy spider stuff.

Sorry, I worded that badly. I meant more survivability for bow/bow than it has now, bringing it on par with mag survivability.

Toc de Malsvi

lassitershawn wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

TeIvanni wrote: »

Yeah spiders should definitely not be doing 14k dps in trial settings.

Why not? That's why bow/bow has earned it's place among ranged dps.
Remove that and we'll be right there where we'd been. In trial with only magicka ranged dps.

Yeah there can be a middle ground though. I said keep it viable but its pretty ridiculous right now. The spider moreso than bow/bow tbh. And mag DPS is like at least much harder than snipe chaining so by a difficulty to reward metric bow really doesn't deserve its success rn. Keep bow/bow viable, but not oppressive. Keep spiders viable, but not oppressive.

The middle ground is surely bow/bow having more survivability and equal damage to mag dps. At least then everybody can bring their DPS toons into end-game trials.

Uh how is that equal...? One should have more survivability and less damage and the other more damage and less survivability. If bow/bow had more survivability and equal damage why bring mag lol esp when stam gets the crazy spider stuff.

The situation as it exists is such thay Bow/Bow can if supported properly bring more Single target damage at the cost of survivability. Mag can bring more AOE and more survivability.

The poster you quoted asked for Bow/Bow survivability to be increased not for Bow/Bow to have more survivability than mag.

Qbiken

satanio wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

satanio wrote: »

lassitershawn wrote: »

Like... boring build with a channeled ability vastly exceeding everything else in damage potential? Yeah it takes some group synergy and unorthodox strats to pull it off but any endgame strat takes coordination. One spider synergy can literally do 400k damage on stamblade on live. One. Synergy. Keep the snipe nonsense to PvP plz thx. Keep it a good/viable build by all means but better than mag at ranged? lol. Imo should be a BIT more damage than ranged mag to account for being a bit less safe and obviously stamina (and mag DK) melee should out DPS it. The synergy seems to be a large part of the problem in any event... I feel like if there are any builds that don't deserve to be actual meta BiS DPS it is the builds that rely on spammable channels and far fewer other rotation elements (like boring af 2x pet HA spam sorc too and I'm a sorc DD main that *** is not fun).

Have you already tested bow/bow on PTS?
Snipe is getting nerfs, rotation will be a bit harder.
Spiders are ok.This spell is finally getting some attention.

When a synergy makes up for 1/3 of your dps it's not balanced.

1/5, don't exaggerate.

In liko´s bow/bow parse the spider synergy does about 26-27% of the total dps. I remembered slightly wrong, but a single synergy should not be able to contribute that much to your dps. It's almost as effortless as ww light attack spam.

FrancisCrawford

If Spiders are so good, shouldn't ranged magicka builds include them as well?

Olupajmibanan

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If Spiders are so good, shouldn't ranged magicka builds include them as well?

Synergies scale with the stats of the synergy clicker (the one who presses X). Spiders scale with the synergy clicker's stamina and weapon damage.

Note that stats of the synergy creator, the player who casted Trapping Webs, have no effect on damage of the spiders.

Sylas_Orin

lassitershawn wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Is that skill really so good? I know they recently made the synergy easier to use, but how does it actually perform. 400k is surely an exaggeration.

Its not an exaggeration. Saw a raid parse from a friend with one synergy and borderline 400k damage. No atro synergy either. Stamsorcs could presumably put that at near 600k. It is an ABSURD amount of free DPS.

could you give us a picture to confirm? Otherwise I'll take this with a couple of grains of salt.

dazee

I support nuking endless hail but keep bow dps around the same spot it is now for bow/bow builds overall otherwise.

Endless hail is what is overpowered about bow it makes it neccesary for every competitive stam build. it doesn't take a genius to see how dumb that is.

Pevey

Endless hail is extremely powerful, but at the same time the endless hail/maelstrom bow necessity for stam dps is what propelled me through vma. Without such a huge reward, there is not sufficient motivation to do that content. A good rpg/mmo is alll about having meaningful rewards to work toward that will make your character more powerful. Making everything equal does not always result in good balance, it just takes away any incentive to do anything.

FrancisCrawford

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If Spiders are so good, shouldn't ranged magicka builds include them as well?

Synergies scale with the stats of the synergy clicker (the one who presses X). Spiders scale with the synergy clicker's stamina and weapon damage.

Note that stats of the synergy creator, the player who casted Trapping Webs, have no effect on damage of the spiders.

That sounds like a "Yes, ranged magicka DPS players SHOULD equip spiders, at least if they're running with at least one stamina DD." Thanks! Perhaps even healers should.

Next mechanics question, inspired by a post above -- whose Daedric Prey, if anybody's, buffs spiders?

satanio

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If Spiders are so good, shouldn't ranged magicka builds include them as well?

Synergies scale with the stats of the synergy clicker (the one who presses X). Spiders scale with the synergy clicker's stamina and weapon damage.

Note that stats of the synergy creator, the player who casted Trapping Webs, have no effect on damage of the spiders.

That sounds like a "Yes, ranged magicka DPS players SHOULD equip spiders, at least if they're running with at least one stamina DD." Thanks! Perhaps even healers should.

Next mechanics question, inspired by a post above -- whose Daedric Prey, if anybody's, buffs spiders?

The one that is using the synergy.
Example: I cast trapping webs; you have gained access to spider broodling spell. If you press Your synergy action button, you’ll cast Spider Broodlings. So it’s you who spawn those pets. Only your pets can be affected by your Daedric Prey.

SodanTok

Such hate against stamplars with jabs

Gilvoth

archers and ranged damage dealers that fight from a distance deserve to be heard and not have their skills and weapons (Bow) deleted just because a few people dont like that type of playstyle.

GrumpyDuckling

I am sure that I am in the minority, but I'd like to see Spiders drop the synergy requirement and work as a permanent summon (double bar to slot).

Waffennacht

I'm confused, what is the correlation between spiders and bow?

jypcy

Waffennacht wrote: »

I'm confused, what is the correlation between spiders and bow?

I believe the spider synergy has a minimum distance requirement, so melee dps will typically be too close to use it. And the damage of the synergy is weapon-scaling, so ranged stam will get much more use out of it than ranged mag.

Toc de Malsvi

Waffennacht wrote: »

I'm confused, what is the correlation between spiders and bow?

Used to be 18m, then it was changed to 12m activation with Wrathstone I believe. Still can be used rather effectively by melee on many fights if your tank/group is smart about placement. But if you are already at range, ie bow, then its great.

cpuScientist

Spiders now scale off highest so mag can use them. They will still be strongest on Stam since it takes from CP however they will be worthwhile casting even on mag. Further their damage was halved and snipe was brought down a quarter. So mission accomplished!