Gold buying by real money is a bad practice in ESO - Please Restrict it!

Gnozo

thedovahmon wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

How dare you. ESO is absolutely P2W. You need to buy dlc(or eso+) to make some dps(vMA weapons), some healing(spc/lolrim), some tanking (alkosh). Wanna be cool in pvp? Craft shacklebreaker (oh, you dont have cool guildhall with every craft station? Looks like you need to craft in in dlc zone . Or buy it), get earthgore(in dlc dungeon, and nerf it pls zos), and ect... Now you are talking about crown selling for gold. Realy. There is way mare problem points in this game, rather then gold selling by crowns

LoreToo wrote: »

OwnerOfSuccuby wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

How dare you. ESO is absolutely P2W. You need to buy dlc(or eso+) to make some dps(vMA weapons), some healing(spc/lolrim), some tanking (alkosh). Wanna be cool in pvp? Craft shacklebreaker (oh, you dont have cool guildhall with every craft station? Looks like you need to craft in in dlc zone . Or buy it), get earthgore(in dlc dungeon, and nerf it pls zos), and ect... Now you are talking about crown selling for gold. Realy. There is way mare problem points in this game, rather then gold selling by crowns

VMA can be made in free trials weaks. My both characters use no dlc gear for pve and pvp.

If other player by trousers by gold it will not make him immortal in pvp or damage more. Just look better ... Or look terrible

Right. If you are good in game with no dlc gear-thats realy great. But if you want minmax in high-end content you MUST get dlc sets, otherwise you will be worth then same person with same game-skill. Other part is pvp-some sets in first 2-3 weeks are way too OP, so ppl start using it for "easy ap". So, the main statement here is: wanna be beast beast - buy dlc/eso+/chapter ect.

2 edits in one night, christ I need to get a hold of my emotions. but seriously. there are more than enough crafted, overland and dungeon sets in the base game that'll allow you to be very effective in end-game content. Silk of the Sun, Torug's Pact, Ebon armory. There are plenty of options available in the base game that'll allow you to nuke enemies and pull your weight in Trials and PVP.

Also by that logic games like Final Fantasy XIV are paid to win because they have expansion packs as well. DLCs that add a buttload of content aren't P2W...They're pay to experience new ***.

Some parts of ESO are indeed p2w tbh.

Just an example: current meta for stam Nightblade pve dps is mostly relequen and berserking warrior with bloodthirsthy juwelry traits.

So, to get this setup you need to spend more money then the base game. There is simply no other way to get this exact Setup.

Relequen only with summerset
Learn the bloodthirsthy trait on juwelry for transmu later also requires summerset

So, to get the best endgame gear, you need to pay Money. You cant get this gear without it. Sure, it wont automaticly give you 60k dps but your gear itself is simply better then players without summerset.

Faulgor

If I'd been told at release that 5 years down the line, the majority of players would be perfectly fine with gold buying ... no, I don't know what I'd have said. I would have been just as dumbfounded as I still am. Corporations have been shifting the red lines further and further each year that I assume we already have a generation of gamers that doesn't know any different.

If you can buy everything with cash, you don't have a game. You have a digital circus show.

MikaHR

Actually ZOS has to make official crown trading tool like GW2 has for gems.

LoreToo

Gnozo wrote: »

thedovahmon wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

How dare you. ESO is absolutely P2W. You need to buy dlc(or eso+) to make some dps(vMA weapons), some healing(spc/lolrim), some tanking (alkosh). Wanna be cool in pvp? Craft shacklebreaker (oh, you dont have cool guildhall with every craft station? Looks like you need to craft in in dlc zone . Or buy it), get earthgore(in dlc dungeon, and nerf it pls zos), and ect... Now you are talking about crown selling for gold. Realy. There is way mare problem points in this game, rather then gold selling by crowns

LoreToo wrote: »

OwnerOfSuccuby wrote: »

LoreToo wrote: »

How dare you. ESO is absolutely P2W. You need to buy dlc(or eso+) to make some dps(vMA weapons), some healing(spc/lolrim), some tanking (alkosh). Wanna be cool in pvp? Craft shacklebreaker (oh, you dont have cool guildhall with every craft station? Looks like you need to craft in in dlc zone . Or buy it), get earthgore(in dlc dungeon, and nerf it pls zos), and ect... Now you are talking about crown selling for gold. Realy. There is way mare problem points in this game, rather then gold selling by crowns

VMA can be made in free trials weaks. My both characters use no dlc gear for pve and pvp.

If other player by trousers by gold it will not make him immortal in pvp or damage more. Just look better ... Or look terrible

Right. If you are good in game with no dlc gear-thats realy great. But if you want minmax in high-end content you MUST get dlc sets, otherwise you will be worth then same person with same game-skill. Other part is pvp-some sets in first 2-3 weeks are way too OP, so ppl start using it for "easy ap". So, the main statement here is: wanna be beast beast - buy dlc/eso+/chapter ect.

2 edits in one night, christ I need to get a hold of my emotions. but seriously. there are more than enough crafted, overland and dungeon sets in the base game that'll allow you to be very effective in end-game content. Silk of the Sun, Torug's Pact, Ebon armory. There are plenty of options available in the base game that'll allow you to nuke enemies and pull your weight in Trials and PVP.

Also by that logic games like Final Fantasy XIV are paid to win because they have expansion packs as well. DLCs that add a buttload of content aren't P2W...They're pay to experience new ***.

Some parts of ESO are indeed p2w tbh.

Just an example: current meta for stam Nightblade pve dps is mostly relequen and berserking warrior with bloodthirsthy juwelry traits.

So, to get this setup you need to spend more money then the base game. There is simply no other way to get this exact Setup.

Relequen only with summerset
Learn the bloodthirsthy trait on juwelry for transmu later also requires summerset

So, to get the best endgame gear, you need to pay Money. You cant get this gear without it. Sure, it wont automaticly give you 60k dps but your gear itself is simply better then players without summerset.

Ofc not. This person can complete all pve content with hunding+spriggn's, and get 190k score in vAS. Oh wait, first you need to by vAS

mague

Universe wrote: »

Please share your thoughts

Forget about it. It is like talking with Al Capone about the pros and cons of prohibition. As long as there is real money and ingame gold there will be a market. That is true since the dawn of online games.

StormChaser3000

It just happened that I'm capable of making good gold in game and having no use to it xD
I'm not in rush to get BiS equipment. I'm enjoying quest progressing for now. I do like "shiny crownstore stuff". So why would I sit on my gold piles like Scroudge duck and not use it to get "shiny stuff" which make my questing enjoyable?

All 3 sides are very happy about the deal (including ZOS), so why not?

Universe

If I didn't answer to any questions, it means I already posted answers to similar questions earlier in the discussion, you can read up.
I understand it's hard to accept the harsh truth about the crown store gifting for gold trade.
I'm happy that I brought up this controversial subject, it is always good to have some debate even if not all parties agree

mague wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Please share your thoughts

Forget about it. It is like talking with Al Capone about the pros and cons of prohibition. As long as there is real money and ingame gold there will be a market. That is true since the dawn of online games.

Indeed.
Many people are failing to see the negative aspects of crown store items for gold despite there is already the OP post and other posts in this discussion which explains why it is bad for the game's health.
I didn't ask to remove/disallow crown store gifting, I merely suggest that this feature should be more limited/restricted so it can be more balanced.

StormChaser3000 wrote: »

It just happened that I'm capable of making good gold in game and having no use to it xD
I'm not in rush to get BiS equipment. I'm enjoying quest progressing for now. I do like "shiny crownstore stuff". So why would I sit on my gold piles like Scroudge duck and not use it to get "shiny stuff" which make my questing enjoyable?

All 3 sides are very happy about the deal (including ZOS), so why not?

I bet all sides will be happy if ZOS will introduce an even more obvious P2W element, such as:
*You have received this particular maelstrom weapon in the past, you can now buy it for 5,000 crowns, so you could have two!
*Transmute crystal 100X pack! Only 10,000 crowns!
I fail to understand why many people support crown store items for gold trade while gold is even more beneficial than some transmute crystals or just 1 BiS weapon in the crown store.
You can buy a lot with gold, power too, like BoE BiS weapons/armor and the list goes on.
I'm not talking about the cosmetic items the people who send the gold get, I'm talking about the huge amounts of gold the other party receives.
Not to mention the negative impacts on the game economy, such as inflation and guild store bidding process(which I mentioned earlier).

The negative impacts of crown store items for gold trade on the game are real.
Usually it is easier to disagree with someone who mention negative aspects because you receive some "benefits" from the said feature, but turning a blind eye to the problems won't make them go away and will only make them worse.

gimpdrb14_ESO

zos is making money off of this it wont be fixed.

KappaKid83

I think you are off base on this one. I have an ESO Plus account and just yesterday gifted a Meridia Statue to someone in exchange for in game gold. It's basically exchanging one type of currency for another. Like when the Euro was far more valuable than the dollar than it currently is would it have been, in your opinion, illegal for anyone with Euros to exchange them for US Dollars and buy goods in the USA while visiting?

O_LYKOS

Oh look. The P2W argument again.

Buying things from the crowns store is not pay to win. Selling things from the crown store is not pay to win.

Me having everything in the crown store does not mean i hold an advantage over others and me having x amount of gold does not mean i hold an advantage over others.

It's a dead argument and people just need to leave it alone.

EDIT - If you're truly concerned about people having masses of gold then you should be more focused on the fact that people sell gold for real money on various websites.

StormChaser3000

Universe wrote: »

If I didn't answer to any questions, it means I already posted answers to similar questions earlier in the discussion, you can read up.
I understand it's hard to accept the harsh truth about the crown store gifting for gold trade.
I'm happy that I brought up this controversial subject, it is always good to have some debate even if not all parties agree

mague wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Please share your thoughts

Forget about it. It is like talking with Al Capone about the pros and cons of prohibition. As long as there is real money and ingame gold there will be a market. That is true since the dawn of online games.

Indeed.
Many people are failing to see the negative aspects of crown store items for gold despite there is already the OP post and other posts in this discussion which explains why it is bad for the game's health.
I didn't ask to remove/disallow crown store gifting, I merely suggest that this feature should be more limited/restricted so it can be more balanced.

StormChaser3000 wrote: »

It just happened that I'm capable of making good gold in game and having no use to it xD
I'm not in rush to get BiS equipment. I'm enjoying quest progressing for now. I do like "shiny crownstore stuff". So why would I sit on my gold piles like Scroudge duck and not use it to get "shiny stuff" which make my questing enjoyable?

All 3 sides are very happy about the deal (including ZOS), so why not?

I bet all sides will be happy if ZOS will introduce an even more obvious P2W element such such as:
*You have received this particular maelstrom weapon in the past, you can now buy it for 5,000 crowns, so you could have two!
*Transmute crystal 100X pack! Only 10,000 crowns!
I fail to understand why many people support crown store items for gold trade while gold is even more beneficial than some transmute crystals or just 1 BiS weapon in the crown store.
You can buy a lot with gold, power too, like BoE BiS weapons/armor and the list goes on.
I'm not talking about the cosmetic items the people who send the gold get, I'm talking about the huge amounts of gold the other party receives.
Not to mention the negative impacts on the game economy, such as inflation and guild store bidding process(which I mentioned earlier).

The negative impacts of crown store items for gold trade on the game are real.
Usually it is easier to disagree with someone who mention negative aspects because you receive some "benefits" from the said feature, but turning a blind eye to the problems won't make them go away and will only make them worse.

I can assure you that you will never see vMA weapons in the crown store.
Transmute crystals is a bad example, since those are super easy to make. Do pledges, PvP and you'll be swimming in them. However, I bet you'll still be salty if someone pays and gets them couple days faster than you.

Power... Even if someone has BiS gear, they will still be awful if they don't use proper rotation, weave, etc.

Also, besides negative impact on cosmetics buyers (gold sellers) your suggestion will hurt those crown sellers who buy certain furniture with that gold.

So, stop counting gold/money of others, and leave happy sellers and customers alone.

omegatay_ESO

[/quote]

Gina said in a forum post that Crowns were deemed a tradable item in game, thus trading crown items for gold was allowed.

Gold selling off-site is wrong and against TOS. Exchanging crown items for gold is allowed completely. Your arguments don’t make sense, they are not literally buying gold. Two players who agree on a price decide to make the trade.

[/quote]

Of course it is, if zos or any company is not getting the profit its against the tos. All rules/morals go out the door when these game developers are the ones cashing in.

Kiralyn2000

NoTimeToWait wrote: »

I am fine, thanks. I can have all those shiny things by spending useless millions of gold instead of useful dollars

But you're losing! I mean, you must be, since (apparently) the player you give that gold to wins!

Somehow. Honestly, it makes little sense.

Odovacar

It boosts ZOS crown store sales, so I doubt it will be removed. Personally idc what others do in game as long as its not an exploit like we've all seen in the past with trials, etc.

Have fun everyone!

tim99

dogman wrote: »

Mommy, Timmy has that thing! I don't like that he has that thing! Let's ban everybody from having that thing!

just stop

wait... what? me??
didnt do anything :angel:

NoTimeToWait

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

NoTimeToWait wrote: »

I am fine, thanks. I can have all those shiny things by spending useless millions of gold instead of useful dollars

But you're losing! I mean, you must be, since (apparently) the player you give that gold to wins!

Somehow. Honestly, it makes little sense.

Well, it makes sense, if you are the one, who is underperforming. In this case, yes, you are losing.

I mean, if you do not train you rotation, you are losing in PVE DPS.
If you don't hone your PVP skills, you are losing in PVP.
If you don't trade, you are losing gold you could get by trading.
If you don't sell crowns, you are losing, because you are not getting all the benefits of selling crowns (whatever they are).

Some people just don't comprehend that you can't win in everything, but you can lose in everything if you don't specialize or prioritize what you are doing. Some need equalizers that would decrease the gap between them, spending less effort, and others, spending more effort. Being quite a bad PVP player myself (in ESO) I can quite understand this sentiment, and frustration that comes when you are not performing as well as you hoped you would do. But I don't say "Disable PVP, because I can't participate in it because of my low skill" or "PVP is a bad practice, it hides tel vars and APs behind skill gates"for obvious reasons

Many of the things we do have advantages and disadvantages to us and general playerbase, so is crown trading. So is endgame race in both PVE in PVP (I think one can list disadvantages of ESO endgame easily, if they tried pursuing endgame for some time).

Eldartar

Universe wrote: »

Hello,
Since Update 18 players are able to buy gold by real money by the following method:
1. Used their credit card to buy crown packs.
2. bought the crown store items.
3. They sold the items and received GOLD.

The gold currency is extremely useful, used for various purposes, such as: guild stores bidding, buying/upgrading gear, repair, crafting etc.
It is literally gold buying through the sale of crown store items, a form of P2W/Pay for Convenience.
While ZOS said it's fine to trade crown store item for gold, it became ridiculous how fast players were accumulating massive amounts of gold.
I believe that ZOS needs to change their mind about this and restrict or disallow it by some manner.
I suggested the following as the first step:
Please limit the number of gifts an account can deliver, for example:
1 gift of 1-500 crowns per week.
1 gift of 501-1,000 crowns per month.
1 gift of 1,001-1,500 crowns per 2 months.
1 gift of 1,501-3,000 crowns per 3 months.
1 gift of 3,001-5,000+ crowns per 6 months.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom
I never participated in this form of trading and I believe it is inappropriate.
***Note: P2W/P2Convenience or not, it is harmful to ESO's game economy, such as: increasing inflation of prices, bids on guild traders are higher etc.
Please share your thoughts

You need to get out more.

It's all down to a matter of choice (like most things in life are) you either choose to 'buy Gold' or you choose not to, it is YOUR choice. WHY would you want to limit the choice of others?

You choose not to, many, many other choose to do so.

ATomiX96

Buying gold directly from 3rd party websites is obviously cheaper with less effort involved, but it can get you banned, because ZOS doesnt get any of the money in the process
Buying gold via Crown Gifting is the same *** basicly with one barrier in between ($$$ -> crowns, crowns -> gold), but ZOS makes money off it, therefore its not against Terms of Service and youre safe from getting banned... even though its literally the same ***.

But keep in mind, gold can buy you trial carries, skins, consumables and golded out gear, but no gold in the world makes you a good player, therefore I wouldnt say its "p2w" per se, but it definitly is a case of that grey area called "pay for convenience".

Emencie

ATomiX96 wrote: »

Buying gold directly from 3rd party websites is obviously cheaper with less effort involved, but it can get you banned, because ZOS doesnt get any of the money in the process
Buying gold via Crown Gifting is the same *** basicly with one barrier in between ($$$ -> crowns, crowns -> gold), but ZOS makes money off it, therefore its not against Terms of Service and youre safe from getting banned... even though its literally the same ***.

But keep in mind, gold can buy you trial carries, skins, consumables and golded out gear, but no gold in the world makes you a good player, therefore I wouldnt say its "p2w" per se, but it definitly is a case of that grey area called "pay for convenience".

Every time I read someone try to explain away something as not P2W but instead as Pay for convenience. I wonder, do you think that people assume there is a win condition to MMOs or other online games? DO you think that people think there is going to be an end credit scene and a "You won!" screen for them to look at?

P2W has always and will always mean pay for convenience. That is what it means. Paying for some convenience or some advantage other players who don't pay do not get. Which is why they complain.

Paying for gold
Paying for skill points
Paying for potions
Paying for skill lines
Paying for mount upgrades

All of these things are just convenience...
Pay for max mount and conveniently you dont have to spend the 6 months getting it.

That is what Pay to win means. When someone who doesn't pay sees and feels a distinctive disadvantage to a player who does pay.

Honestly. If pay to win just meant you pay money and you get a "You won" screen and credits rolled, less people would be upset about it! I have no idea why for some reason people have assumed that it is a literal pay and get a, you won the game.

Kiralyn2000

Emencie wrote: »

P2W has always and will always mean pay for convenience. That is what it means.

...what?

No.

No it hasn't.


P2W was going into one of those open-world/free-for-all/pvp games, and being able to get a faster mount only for cash. Being able to get automatic healing & mana potions. Needing to enchant your gear to +15 in order to compete, but you need "enchantment boosters" in order to have more than a 1% chance of success - and if you failed, there was a chance of your gear being destroyed. Needing to buy "insurance" consumables to prevent people from looting that +15 gear off your corpse.
And all of that only available to people who spend $.

It's never been about "convenience". Where the hell did that come from? O_o

wolfie1.0.

You all failed to mention ESO+ which honestly has had more impact on gameplay than anything else in the crown store or even selling crowns for gold, and it requires real money to get. i sold half my contents the other day and made more than i would/have selling crowns.

Prof_Bawbag

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Sheezabeast wrote: »

You’ve never participated in it but you want to restrict it?

As a Grand Master Crafter, Crown store exclusive motifs are my bane, I’ve had to buy them with gold from friends every time one is released. I have financial circumstances limiting my budget irl, why should I get restricted from collecting a new motif on my dedicated crafter because you don’t like other people having a mutually beneficial gold sink?

The ones who sold you the motifs earned the gold by using their real world money.
It is quite literally gold buying, like they approached some websites and bought their gold from the merchants for posted amount of real world currency, such as dollars.
Though in this case ZOS made the profit, not some third parties.
This isn't right and shouldn't be allowed.
No real world currency should allow the player to exchange it to gold.
What is currently being done:
1.Real world currency for crown packs.
2. Crown packs for crown store items.
3. Crown store items for gold.

So it is basically real world currency conversion to gold.
This is wrong and shouldn't be allowed to continue as it is now.
If ZOS doesn't want disallow it, they can at least restrict it.

Gina said in a forum post that Crowns were deemed a tradable item in game, thus trading crown items for gold was allowed.

Gold selling off-site is wrong and against TOS. Exchanging crown items for gold is allowed completely. Your arguments don’t make sense, they are not literally buying gold. Two players who agree on a price decide to make the trade.

Only wrong because ZoS don't get the money

Prof_Bawbag

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

You all failed to mention ESO+ which honestly has had more impact on gameplay than anything else in the crown store or even selling crowns for gold, and it requires real money to get. i sold half my contents the other day and made more than i would/have selling crowns.

Not really. you'd have had those items anyway. Selling them in bulk or as you get them has the exact same outcome.

wolfie1.0.

Emencie wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

Buying gold directly from 3rd party websites is obviously cheaper with less effort involved, but it can get you banned, because ZOS doesnt get any of the money in the process
Buying gold via Crown Gifting is the same *** basicly with one barrier in between ($$$ -> crowns, crowns -> gold), but ZOS makes money off it, therefore its not against Terms of Service and youre safe from getting banned... even though its literally the same ***.

But keep in mind, gold can buy you trial carries, skins, consumables and golded out gear, but no gold in the world makes you a good player, therefore I wouldnt say its "p2w" per se, but it definitly is a case of that grey area called "pay for convenience".

Every time I read someone try to explain away something as not P2W but instead as Pay for convenience. I wonder, do you think that people assume there is a win condition to MMOs or other online games? DO you think that people think there is going to be an end credit scene and a "You won!" screen for them to look at?

P2W has always and will always mean pay for convenience. That is what it means. Paying for some convenience or some advantage other players who don't pay do not get. Which is why they complain.

Paying for gold
Paying for skill points
Paying for potions
Paying for skill lines
Paying for mount upgrades

All of these things are just convenience...
Pay for max mount and conveniently you dont have to spend the 6 months getting it.

That is what Pay to win means. When someone who doesn't pay sees and feels a distinctive disadvantage to a player who does pay.

Honestly. If pay to win just meant you pay money and you get a "You won" screen and credits rolled, less people would be upset about it! I have no idea why for some reason people have assumed that it is a literal pay and get a, you won the game.

The most common definition of P2W are games that lock content/items behind paywalls that gives players who unlock said content a Significant advantage over any other players. This typically involves a currency that is only obtainable by spending IRL currencies. and not obtainable through any other in game methods.

by this definition (see: Urban Dictionary, or Google) the ONLY P2W mechanic in the game is the craft bag. everything else can be done in game.

Alienoutlaw

its not P2W as there is NOTHING in the crown store that gives any player an advantage over another by having access to content you cant get in game.
P2W is using real money to purchase in game item that or not available during the course of normal game play and that give a signicicant advantage to anyone who buys such items.

now if you said its Pay to Look good then yes it maybe is

Hiruda

Me reading this thread

Parrot1986

I had around 60k crowns since I never spend them and never plan to buy anything from the store. I was delighted to be able to sell them for gold and actually on something I want.

If people want to buy crowns and then sell them, I’m fine with that as well. It’s their money and reduces the need for gold sellers which is a worse rate and unapproved source. Buying crowns also gives ZoS more money to start investing in improving in more aspects of the game.

idk

NupidStoob wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Universe wrote: »

Please share your thoughts

it's fine.

It's not fine at all.
It's pure P2W for the reasons I mentioned.

It is not P2W.

If you really want to gripe about gold buying you would be complaining about how long it takes for Zos to ban bot accounts. That is where the real issue is so please get priorities straight.

On the topic of "ZoS never banning bots": On PC EU the prices for Dreugh Wax, Rubedo Leather and Aetherial dust have all been rising over the last couple months due to a bot banwave. I checked the farming places multiple times. Sadly the bots have already returned to their popular farming spots, but ZoS is regularly doing something about them. It's a stupid battle. ZoS is developing new software that registers bots and implements other preventative measures while bot creators look for ways around it. ZoS just doesn't announce that.

Also we don't know if ZoS just doesn't lower droprate of the bot accounts manually to miniscule values or in other way stops them from trading the items away. Obviously something slips through because otherwise bots wouldn't exist, but still there is definitely stuff being done behind the scenes.

The efforts of Zos on this front are not sufficient. Not by a long shot. There was a time bots were extremely serious as you could not quest or go into a delve without seeing them, and they were obvious.

Yes, clearly they do take action but the simple fact that the area bots work in remain populated by bots shows Zos is not doing enough.

If they do not then it will ruin the market. I have seen it where the most coveted items become to expensive for anyone wo does not buy gold or does not sell cash shop items for gold, and of course does not sell the most coveted items.

Emencie

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

ATomiX96 wrote: »

Buying gold directly from 3rd party websites is obviously cheaper with less effort involved, but it can get you banned, because ZOS doesnt get any of the money in the process
Buying gold via Crown Gifting is the same *** basicly with one barrier in between ($$$ -> crowns, crowns -> gold), but ZOS makes money off it, therefore its not against Terms of Service and youre safe from getting banned... even though its literally the same ***.

But keep in mind, gold can buy you trial carries, skins, consumables and golded out gear, but no gold in the world makes you a good player, therefore I wouldnt say its "p2w" per se, but it definitly is a case of that grey area called "pay for convenience".

Every time I read someone try to explain away something as not P2W but instead as Pay for convenience. I wonder, do you think that people assume there is a win condition to MMOs or other online games? DO you think that people think there is going to be an end credit scene and a "You won!" screen for them to look at?

P2W has always and will always mean pay for convenience. That is what it means. Paying for some convenience or some advantage other players who don't pay do not get. Which is why they complain.

Paying for gold
Paying for skill points
Paying for potions
Paying for skill lines
Paying for mount upgrades

All of these things are just convenience...
Pay for max mount and conveniently you dont have to spend the 6 months getting it.

That is what Pay to win means. When someone who doesn't pay sees and feels a distinctive disadvantage to a player who does pay.

Honestly. If pay to win just meant you pay money and you get a "You won" screen and credits rolled, less people would be upset about it! I have no idea why for some reason people have assumed that it is a literal pay and get a, you won the game.

The most common definition of P2W are games that lock content/items behind paywalls that gives players who unlock said content a Significant advantage over any other players. This typically involves a currency that is only obtainable by spending IRL currencies. and not obtainable through any other in game methods.

by this definition (see: Urban Dictionary, or Google) the ONLY P2W mechanic in the game is the craft bag. everything else can be done in game.

Which is why there is such a disconnect with players. Because in my day and many other players here.
Any time you pay for any advantage in a game then it's P2W because when we played online games these mechanics never existed until recently. While there are others like you who feel that's just convenience. Heck we dont have to even go back to "back in my day." If on day 1 of ESO someone suggested that ZOS would allow...
1 Purchasable gold
2 Purchasable skill lines
3 Purchasable Mount leveling
4 Purchasable tri-pots
5 Purchasable skill points

People would have lost their minds. The forums would have been on fire. Hey they were on fire when they announce Free to play because everyone feared this exact thing would happen. But here we are with all of those things purchasable .


Saying that the only time it's P2W is when it it #1 Provides significant advantage, and #2 is only available if you pay for it. Means that almost nothing will ever qualify. So then Nothing is P2W.

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

Emencie wrote: »

P2W has always and will always mean pay for convenience. That is what it means.

...what?

No.

No it hasn't.


P2W was going into one of those open-world/free-for-all/pvp games, and being able to get a faster mount only for cash. Being able to get automatic healing & mana potions. Needing to enchant your gear to +15 in order to compete, but you need "enchantment boosters" in order to have more than a 1% chance of success - and if you failed, there was a chance of your gear being destroyed. Needing to buy "insurance" consumables to prevent people from looting that +15 gear off your corpse.
And all of that only available to people who spend $.

It's never been about "convenience". Where the hell did that come from? O_o

No.
P2W started to mean that to some people when some companies took it too far.

But the rest of us remember when Allods tried to sell bags and the players said no P2W in this game and rioted. Heck This very year the Division 2 launched with a collectors edition that gave additional storage space to people who paid for "Convenience" And the community lashed back. Guess what? they pulled the P2W addition out of the offering.

There was a time when cash shops provided cosmetic only items.

slowly game stores creep along until you find the game in a situation where a player can buy a fully leveled fully geared fully realized character instantly with your credit card. WoW took a long time to get there. And ESO is close behind.

But you can get a fully leveled fully geared, fully realized character in game without buying it. So it's not P2W

NoTimeToWait

Emencie wrote: »

But the rest of us remember when Allods tried to sell bags and the players said no P2W in this game and rioted. Heck This very year the Division 2 launched with a collectors edition that gave additional storage space to people who paid for "Convenience" And the community lashed back. Guess what? they pulled the P2W addition out of the offering.

There was a time when cash shops provided cosmetic only items.

slowly game stores creep along until you find the game in a situation where a player can buy a fully leveled fully geared fully realized character instantly with your credit card. WoW took a long time to get there. And ESO is close behind.

But you can get a fully leveled fully geared, fully realized character in game without buying it. So it's not P2W

Your memory is deceiving you with Allods at least. People on EU server cried out, because EU server was behind RU counterpart by couple month worth of updates. So, EU people knew, what exactly russian server had at that time (and it was unbearable P2W which could be described by 2 points: not obtainable and highly advantageous), that's why they cried out. Bags by themselves were not P2W, but what would have come next was P2W.

And ZOS is currently nowhere near that point.

I don't approve the current trend though. But I don't feel like it is something that will make a difference, so I am okay with purchasable shards and even skill trees