Substituting DW for 2H? [PVE]

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Hi guys.

Would it be reasonable to go for a 2H/Bow setup on a PVE DD?

If so, what 2H skills should I be looking at getting? I'd like to have at least one of my characters use 2H, just so I can experience everything, and I'm very much a PVE player.

Many thanks in advance.

Izaki

I guess you could use 2h on Trash packs with the Master 2h. But for ST DPS DW/Bow or Bow/Bow is just better by a pretty wide margin

Iskiab

Missing rending strike sort of kills 2 hander for pve. 2 hander has been setup as more of an aoe spec.

DocFrost72

The difference between 2h and dw won't be noticiable outside of score pushing.

The big skills you'll likely take advantage of depend a bit on class. What class are you using?

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Iskiab wrote: »

Missing rending strike sort of kills 2 hander for pve. 2 hander has been setup as more of an aoe spec.

I see. What about a DW/2H setup? Would that work possibly?

CMDR_Un1k0rn

DocFrost72 wrote: »

The difference between 2h and dw won't be noticiable outside of score pushing.

The big skills you'll likely take advantage of depend a bit on class. What class are you using?

Had planned on Warden.

Izaki

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Missing rending strike sort of kills 2 hander for pve. 2 hander has been setup as more of an aoe spec.

I see. What about a DW/2H setup? Would that work possibly?

You'd lose your Maelstrom bow and your Endless Hail which is like over 10k DPS. And you lose Poison Injection. And you'd lose Ballista. So no

Kikke

For Dungeon running and for trash fights in trials 2h is actually quite decent. And after DW changes incomming in elsewer 2h will become even better for aoe fights.

my stamsorc use 5x Automaton, 5x War Machine, DSA master greatsword and vma bow.

My bar looks like this: 2h- Reverse Slice, Wrecking blow, cleave, storm, boundless armor, ult = dawnbreaker
bow- Surge, Posion injection, caltrops, hail of arrows, boundless armor, ult = Balista

Use AoEs on trash. use a simple wrecking blow rotation on boss. getting 100k+ aoe dps with this build and 40k stable singel target dps. Might test swapping Wrecking blow with Imbued wep but have not tested this yet.

Sanguinor2

Very reasonable, 2H/Bow is not far behind Dual Wield/Bow.
Skills you might want to look at is Wrecking Blow as spammable, if you have a class spammable or want to use something without a cast time you can use crushing weapon from psijic. Brawler/Carve/Cleave for AoE together with a master 2H its very strong AoE Damage in Addition to shielding yourself for a high amount each cast. And you will want to use Executioner/Reverse slice too unless you have a better class execute.
One Thing that 2h lacks compared to the dual dagger dual wield meta is 10% crit Chance but that certainly isnt the end of the world

DocFrost72

So for warden, the choice between wrecking blow and the cliff racer is largely preference. If you don't mind the windup and can get the weave down wrecking blow works, but I myself prefer the flap for passives.

Additionally, cleave is a very fun and useful skill. Carve will get you ulti faster (improving dps) while brawler will make you unbelievably sturdy in trash packs. Regardless of which morph you pick they both carry a bleed that can be used as a dot.

I don't see much use for the charge ability. Maybe in weird team comp setups where you're going for specific mobs like the sacrifices in DSA or interrupting adds such as the shadow boss in CoS. Highly situational, I never used it.

Reverse slash is great, I personally use it on every class but nightblade. Slice is for aoe, executioner for single target. I prefer executioner for single target, but my builds usually have a lot of aoe already. That and it takes time perfecting when to use it for maximum effect on trash, where that secondary splash matters.

Momentum you won't need for 4 mans in traditional groups that have healers, and if you chose brawler you already have a way to ward damage long enough for springs and other healing to catch you up. I personally run rally, because I do solo content a lot. It's also why I go brawler.

The ultimate can be fun, but the bear or front bar dawnbreaker (flawless) are better choices for dps. If you front bar flawless dawnbreaker, backbar balista (bow ult) for damage.

Personally I prefer bow+2h, but if you wanted a 2h-dw setup I could try to work on that for you too!

TBois

2h/bow is quite strong on stam sorc, but bow/bow is above even dw/bow right now.

hedna123b14_ESO

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

Hi guys.

Would it be reasonable to go for a 2H/Bow setup on a PVE DD?

If so, what 2H skills should I be looking at getting? I'd like to have at least one of my characters use 2H, just so I can experience everything, and I'm very much a PVE player.

Many thanks in advance.

What character are you planning on going 2H/bow? The difference in DPS largely depends on the group you are running with. With a top level group the dps difference is humongous. I tried 2H in a competitive group and my dps was around 8-9k below Dual Wield. In an average group, you wont find such a great difference, maybe 3k at most and with a bad group you honestly can play anything since player skill at that point plays such a big role in determining dps. Whether playing 2H on a class with a spammable or not, all you need are 2 skills - Brawler and Executioner. If your class has a class spammable use it. If it does not, use psijic. They are both much better than the two hand spammable.

Vajrak

What people forget with 2H is that it is perfectly fine in PvE, but you need to utilize it correctly --- it is splash damage on light and HEAVY attacks, and the follow-up skill makes your next direct damage skill do 10% more. sources of bleed come in Brawler (morph of cleave) --- the 10% damage boost applies to Executioner (don't waste it on reverse slice, you don't need the extra splash damage), in trash fights just drop Endless Hail and Cleave to your hearts content until everything is dead --- it keeps a shield on you, does on-hit damage, and applies a DoT all at once. On single target, spam what you have until about 40%, then take over like an execution magplar to some extent, but instead of jesus beam and maintaining DoTs until 15%, it becomes Heavy>Executioner>DoT/Buff Maintain, and 15% down, Heavy-Executioner.

So your 2H skills are:

Cleave>Brawler; the other morph for minor heroism can be nice, but the Shield from Brawler adds to your durability, and a dead DD does 0 DPS.

Reverse Slice>Executioner; the other morph on this can be nice for the splash if you are focusing on optimizing trash fights...but why would you bother doing that?

Momentum>Rally; since you are PvE oriented, the snare removal/immunity isn't really all that necessary, you should have enough stam to break as needed.

Of course, ALL 2H passives.

So your bars, you are looking at something similar to the below:

Front (2H): Flex, Brawler, Flex, Executioner, Rally, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Back: (Bow): Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Rearming Trap, Flex, Flex, Ballista

Flex Options vary by Class, and you are planning on Warden, so I'd look at:
Front: Cutting Dive, Subterranean Assault --- use a Maul with this for the extra % penetration, you are using these primarily for the passive effects of 12% Stam recovery, 12% (for 2 animal skills) Damage Done, and Ult generation with one used every 4s

Back: Green Lotus, for major savagery (crit rating) along with some measure of resource management in the passive and heals linked to your light/heavy attacks.

Bull Netch (obvious) for resource management.

OR the typical/standard Razor Caltrops.

On backbar, I'd say pick and choose but try both Lotus and Bull Netch, and see which works better for you and your group overall; if you are heavy attacking to get the 10% damage bonus from 2H Follow-Up passive, stam management shouldn't be much of an issue.

Sets will obviously be by preference, but with damage done bonuses on your 2H (Greatsword would amplify that more, so test between Greatsword and Maul on a dummy to see which is getting more power through), you can adjust quite a bit into more crit rating or more penetration, as you need.

edited to fix formatting.

hedna123b14_ESO

Vajrak wrote: »

What people forget with 2H is that it is perfectly fine in PvE, but you need to utilize it correctly --- it is splash damage on light and HEAVY attacks, and the follow-up skill makes your next direct damage skill do 10% more. sources of bleed come in Brawler (morph of cleave) --- the 10% damage boost applies to Executioner (don't waste it on reverse slice, you don't need the extra splash damage), in trash fights just drop Endless Hail and Cleave to your hearts content until everything is dead --- it keeps a shield on you, does on-hit damage, and applies a DoT all at once. On single target, spam what you have until about 40%, then take over like an execution magplar to some extent, but instead of jesus beam and maintaining DoTs until 15%, it becomes Heavy>Executioner>DoT/Buff Maintain, and 15% down, Heavy-Executioner.

So your 2H skills are:

Cleave>Brawler; the other morph for minor heroism can be nice, but the Shield from Brawler adds to your durability, and a dead DD does 0 DPS.

Reverse Slice>Executioner; the other morph on this can be nice for the splash if you are focusing on optimizing trash fights...but why would you bother doing that?

Momentum>Rally; since you are PvE oriented, the snare removal/immunity isn't really all that necessary, you should have enough stam to break as needed.

Of course, ALL 2H passives.

So your bars, you are looking at something similar to the below:

Front (2H): Flex, Brawler, Flex, Executioner, Rally, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Back: (Bow): Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Rearming Trap, Flex, Flex, Ballista

Flex Options vary by Class, and you are planning on Warden, so I'd look at:
Front: Cutting Dive, Subterranean Assault --- use a Maul with this for the extra % penetration, you are using these primarily for the passive effects of 12% Stam recovery, 12% (for 2 animal skills) Damage Done, and Ult generation with one used every 4s

Back: Green Lotus, for major savagery (crit rating) along with some measure of resource management in the passive and heals linked to your light/heavy attacks.

Bull Netch (obvious) for resource management.

OR the typical/standard Razor Caltrops.

On backbar, I'd say pick and choose but try both Lotus and Bull Netch, and see which works better for you and your group overall; if you are heavy attacking to get the 10% damage bonus from 2H Follow-Up passive, stam management shouldn't be much of an issue.

Sets will obviously be by preference, but with damage done bonuses on your 2H (Greatsword would amplify that more, so test between Greatsword and Maul on a dummy to see which is getting more power through), you can adjust quite a bit into more crit rating or more penetration, as you need.

edited to fix formatting.

Just fyi Maul and Mace are not used at all in PvE, because the penetration of those weapons is calculated after all the debuffs and other types of weapons are much better.

Vajrak

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

What people forget with 2H is that it is perfectly fine in PvE, but you need to utilize it correctly --- it is splash damage on light and HEAVY attacks, and the follow-up skill makes your next direct damage skill do 10% more. sources of bleed come in Brawler (morph of cleave) --- the 10% damage boost applies to Executioner (don't waste it on reverse slice, you don't need the extra splash damage), in trash fights just drop Endless Hail and Cleave to your hearts content until everything is dead --- it keeps a shield on you, does on-hit damage, and applies a DoT all at once. On single target, spam what you have until about 40%, then take over like an execution magplar to some extent, but instead of jesus beam and maintaining DoTs until 15%, it becomes Heavy>Executioner>DoT/Buff Maintain, and 15% down, Heavy-Executioner.

So your 2H skills are:

Cleave>Brawler; the other morph for minor heroism can be nice, but the Shield from Brawler adds to your durability, and a dead DD does 0 DPS.

Reverse Slice>Executioner; the other morph on this can be nice for the splash if you are focusing on optimizing trash fights...but why would you bother doing that?

Momentum>Rally; since you are PvE oriented, the snare removal/immunity isn't really all that necessary, you should have enough stam to break as needed.

Of course, ALL 2H passives.

So your bars, you are looking at something similar to the below:

Front (2H): Flex, Brawler, Flex, Executioner, Rally, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Back: (Bow): Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Rearming Trap, Flex, Flex, Ballista

Flex Options vary by Class, and you are planning on Warden, so I'd look at:
Front: Cutting Dive, Subterranean Assault --- use a Maul with this for the extra % penetration, you are using these primarily for the passive effects of 12% Stam recovery, 12% (for 2 animal skills) Damage Done, and Ult generation with one used every 4s

Back: Green Lotus, for major savagery (crit rating) along with some measure of resource management in the passive and heals linked to your light/heavy attacks.

Bull Netch (obvious) for resource management.

OR the typical/standard Razor Caltrops.

On backbar, I'd say pick and choose but try both Lotus and Bull Netch, and see which works better for you and your group overall; if you are heavy attacking to get the 10% damage bonus from 2H Follow-Up passive, stam management shouldn't be much of an issue.

Sets will obviously be by preference, but with damage done bonuses on your 2H (Greatsword would amplify that more, so test between Greatsword and Maul on a dummy to see which is getting more power through), you can adjust quite a bit into more crit rating or more penetration, as you need.

edited to fix formatting.

Just fyi Maul and Mace are not used at all in PvE, because the penetration of those weapons is calculated after all the debuffs and other types of weapons are much better.

Even with that, a Precise Maul performs well without losing much in terms of penetration, as in on a 4 man party it is around same boost as Sharpened while giving the extra crit rating, or with a nirnhoned same Weapon Damage boost as a Greatsword still with the extra penetration, which Stamina lacks often; it allows you to gear less for penetration also, and still put up good numbers, and even stated there to test and see which you get more out of --- on my 2H Stamblade tests, Sharpened 2H Sword was better, because assassination skills gave me the crit rating, while on 2H Stamplar and Stamsorc tests, Mauls generally did more as the penetration applies consistently, so even on trash (with sorc) the wind fields and such were doing more on trash areas, and on bosses the extra penetration meant if minor fracture fell off for a little or wasn't available for some reason it wasn't much of a change.

Please don't try to "FYI" for things that DO get used, and have builds and usages associated, that just pigeonholes people even further. Mauls can be used just fine in PvE, it just requires gearing towards it slightly differently than for Swords or Axes.

OPs question was is it reasonable for 2H/Bow in PvE, I gave an answer as to how and why, and something that makes some class oriented suggestions, inclusive of flex options, based on a variant I have used that was able to consistently put up 27-30k DPS single-target.

Differences being primarily in that my personal build was for Stamplar, not Warden, and my Flex options were:
Front: Jabs, Power of the Light
Back: Repentance, Rearming Trap, Sweep ult (for aedric passive)

Build at the time WAS utilizing a Maul; current build of a new/different Stamplar is using a Greatsword, but that is only because I managed to luck out and get an Alkosh drop on it.

TLDR; Mauls are perfectly viable and used in PvE, it just has slightly different build needs than Greatsword does. Experiment and see which works better for you.

hedna123b14_ESO

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

What people forget with 2H is that it is perfectly fine in PvE, but you need to utilize it correctly --- it is splash damage on light and HEAVY attacks, and the follow-up skill makes your next direct damage skill do 10% more. sources of bleed come in Brawler (morph of cleave) --- the 10% damage boost applies to Executioner (don't waste it on reverse slice, you don't need the extra splash damage), in trash fights just drop Endless Hail and Cleave to your hearts content until everything is dead --- it keeps a shield on you, does on-hit damage, and applies a DoT all at once. On single target, spam what you have until about 40%, then take over like an execution magplar to some extent, but instead of jesus beam and maintaining DoTs until 15%, it becomes Heavy>Executioner>DoT/Buff Maintain, and 15% down, Heavy-Executioner.

So your 2H skills are:

Cleave>Brawler; the other morph for minor heroism can be nice, but the Shield from Brawler adds to your durability, and a dead DD does 0 DPS.

Reverse Slice>Executioner; the other morph on this can be nice for the splash if you are focusing on optimizing trash fights...but why would you bother doing that?

Momentum>Rally; since you are PvE oriented, the snare removal/immunity isn't really all that necessary, you should have enough stam to break as needed.

Of course, ALL 2H passives.

So your bars, you are looking at something similar to the below:

Front (2H): Flex, Brawler, Flex, Executioner, Rally, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Back: (Bow): Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Rearming Trap, Flex, Flex, Ballista

Flex Options vary by Class, and you are planning on Warden, so I'd look at:
Front: Cutting Dive, Subterranean Assault --- use a Maul with this for the extra % penetration, you are using these primarily for the passive effects of 12% Stam recovery, 12% (for 2 animal skills) Damage Done, and Ult generation with one used every 4s

Back: Green Lotus, for major savagery (crit rating) along with some measure of resource management in the passive and heals linked to your light/heavy attacks.

Bull Netch (obvious) for resource management.

OR the typical/standard Razor Caltrops.

On backbar, I'd say pick and choose but try both Lotus and Bull Netch, and see which works better for you and your group overall; if you are heavy attacking to get the 10% damage bonus from 2H Follow-Up passive, stam management shouldn't be much of an issue.

Sets will obviously be by preference, but with damage done bonuses on your 2H (Greatsword would amplify that more, so test between Greatsword and Maul on a dummy to see which is getting more power through), you can adjust quite a bit into more crit rating or more penetration, as you need.

edited to fix formatting.

Just fyi Maul and Mace are not used at all in PvE, because the penetration of those weapons is calculated after all the debuffs and other types of weapons are much better.

Even with that, a Precise Maul performs well without losing much in terms of penetration, as in on a 4 man party it is around same boost as Sharpened while giving the extra crit rating, or with a nirnhoned same Weapon Damage boost as a Greatsword still with the extra penetration, which Stamina lacks often; it allows you to gear less for penetration also, and still put up good numbers, and even stated there to test and see which you get more out of --- on my 2H Stamblade tests, Sharpened 2H Sword was better, because assassination skills gave me the crit rating, while on 2H Stamplar and Stamsorc tests, Mauls generally did more as the penetration applies consistently, so even on trash (with sorc) the wind fields and such were doing more on trash areas, and on bosses the extra penetration meant if minor fracture fell off for a little or wasn't available for some reason it wasn't much of a change.

Please don't try to "FYI" for things that DO get used, and have builds and usages associated, that just pigeonholes people even further. Mauls can be used just fine in PvE, it just requires gearing towards it slightly differently than for Swords or Axes.

OPs question was is it reasonable for 2H/Bow in PvE, I gave an answer as to how and why, and something that makes some class oriented suggestions, inclusive of flex options, based on a variant I have used that was able to consistently put up 27-30k DPS single-target.

Differences being primarily in that my personal build was for Stamplar, not Warden, and my Flex options were:
Front: Jabs, Power of the Light
Back: Repentance, Rearming Trap, Sweep ult (for aedric passive)

Build at the time WAS utilizing a Maul; current build of a new/different Stamplar is using a Greatsword, but that is only because I managed to luck out and get an Alkosh drop on it.

TLDR; Mauls are perfectly viable and used in PvE, it just has slightly different build needs than Greatsword does. Experiment and see which works better for you.

Mauls are trash because they apply after the other debuffs. Im not saying you cant use it. Heck you can go DW/2H if you wanted to, Im saying running ANY other weapon will be a dps gain over the Maul. Also anything under 40k (which itself is a low number) is not a good result for 2h dps, and thats with no external buffs...

DocFrost72

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

What people forget with 2H is that it is perfectly fine in PvE, but you need to utilize it correctly --- it is splash damage on light and HEAVY attacks, and the follow-up skill makes your next direct damage skill do 10% more. sources of bleed come in Brawler (morph of cleave) --- the 10% damage boost applies to Executioner (don't waste it on reverse slice, you don't need the extra splash damage), in trash fights just drop Endless Hail and Cleave to your hearts content until everything is dead --- it keeps a shield on you, does on-hit damage, and applies a DoT all at once. On single target, spam what you have until about 40%, then take over like an execution magplar to some extent, but instead of jesus beam and maintaining DoTs until 15%, it becomes Heavy>Executioner>DoT/Buff Maintain, and 15% down, Heavy-Executioner.

So your 2H skills are:

Cleave>Brawler; the other morph for minor heroism can be nice, but the Shield from Brawler adds to your durability, and a dead DD does 0 DPS.

Reverse Slice>Executioner; the other morph on this can be nice for the splash if you are focusing on optimizing trash fights...but why would you bother doing that?

Momentum>Rally; since you are PvE oriented, the snare removal/immunity isn't really all that necessary, you should have enough stam to break as needed.

Of course, ALL 2H passives.

So your bars, you are looking at something similar to the below:

Front (2H): Flex, Brawler, Flex, Executioner, Rally, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Back: (Bow): Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Rearming Trap, Flex, Flex, Ballista

Flex Options vary by Class, and you are planning on Warden, so I'd look at:
Front: Cutting Dive, Subterranean Assault --- use a Maul with this for the extra % penetration, you are using these primarily for the passive effects of 12% Stam recovery, 12% (for 2 animal skills) Damage Done, and Ult generation with one used every 4s

Back: Green Lotus, for major savagery (crit rating) along with some measure of resource management in the passive and heals linked to your light/heavy attacks.

Bull Netch (obvious) for resource management.

OR the typical/standard Razor Caltrops.

On backbar, I'd say pick and choose but try both Lotus and Bull Netch, and see which works better for you and your group overall; if you are heavy attacking to get the 10% damage bonus from 2H Follow-Up passive, stam management shouldn't be much of an issue.

Sets will obviously be by preference, but with damage done bonuses on your 2H (Greatsword would amplify that more, so test between Greatsword and Maul on a dummy to see which is getting more power through), you can adjust quite a bit into more crit rating or more penetration, as you need.

edited to fix formatting.

Just fyi Maul and Mace are not used at all in PvE, because the penetration of those weapons is calculated after all the debuffs and other types of weapons are much better.

Even with that, a Precise Maul performs well without losing much in terms of penetration, as in on a 4 man party it is around same boost as Sharpened while giving the extra crit rating, or with a nirnhoned same Weapon Damage boost as a Greatsword still with the extra penetration, which Stamina lacks often; it allows you to gear less for penetration also, and still put up good numbers, and even stated there to test and see which you get more out of --- on my 2H Stamblade tests, Sharpened 2H Sword was better, because assassination skills gave me the crit rating, while on 2H Stamplar and Stamsorc tests, Mauls generally did more as the penetration applies consistently, so even on trash (with sorc) the wind fields and such were doing more on trash areas, and on bosses the extra penetration meant if minor fracture fell off for a little or wasn't available for some reason it wasn't much of a change.

Please don't try to "FYI" for things that DO get used, and have builds and usages associated, that just pigeonholes people even further. Mauls can be used just fine in PvE, it just requires gearing towards it slightly differently than for Swords or Axes.

OPs question was is it reasonable for 2H/Bow in PvE, I gave an answer as to how and why, and something that makes some class oriented suggestions, inclusive of flex options, based on a variant I have used that was able to consistently put up 27-30k DPS single-target.

Differences being primarily in that my personal build was for Stamplar, not Warden, and my Flex options were:
Front: Jabs, Power of the Light
Back: Repentance, Rearming Trap, Sweep ult (for aedric passive)

Build at the time WAS utilizing a Maul; current build of a new/different Stamplar is using a Greatsword, but that is only because I managed to luck out and get an Alkosh drop on it.

TLDR; Mauls are perfectly viable and used in PvE, it just has slightly different build needs than Greatsword does. Experiment and see which works better for you.

Also anything under 40k (which itself is a low number) is not a good result

[

and thats with no external buffs...

I have a feeling you're using good as competitive/optimal here, so my reaction may end up being just a different understanding of that post than you meant.

I'd not touch a Maul unless their value is flat myself. *Maybe* solo with no fracture they're better.

Edit: tried four gifs in a row and none load. Oh well.

hedna123b14_ESO

DocFrost72 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

What people forget with 2H is that it is perfectly fine in PvE, but you need to utilize it correctly --- it is splash damage on light and HEAVY attacks, and the follow-up skill makes your next direct damage skill do 10% more. sources of bleed come in Brawler (morph of cleave) --- the 10% damage boost applies to Executioner (don't waste it on reverse slice, you don't need the extra splash damage), in trash fights just drop Endless Hail and Cleave to your hearts content until everything is dead --- it keeps a shield on you, does on-hit damage, and applies a DoT all at once. On single target, spam what you have until about 40%, then take over like an execution magplar to some extent, but instead of jesus beam and maintaining DoTs until 15%, it becomes Heavy>Executioner>DoT/Buff Maintain, and 15% down, Heavy-Executioner.

So your 2H skills are:

Cleave>Brawler; the other morph for minor heroism can be nice, but the Shield from Brawler adds to your durability, and a dead DD does 0 DPS.

Reverse Slice>Executioner; the other morph on this can be nice for the splash if you are focusing on optimizing trash fights...but why would you bother doing that?

Momentum>Rally; since you are PvE oriented, the snare removal/immunity isn't really all that necessary, you should have enough stam to break as needed.

Of course, ALL 2H passives.

So your bars, you are looking at something similar to the below:

Front (2H): Flex, Brawler, Flex, Executioner, Rally, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Back: (Bow): Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Rearming Trap, Flex, Flex, Ballista

Flex Options vary by Class, and you are planning on Warden, so I'd look at:
Front: Cutting Dive, Subterranean Assault --- use a Maul with this for the extra % penetration, you are using these primarily for the passive effects of 12% Stam recovery, 12% (for 2 animal skills) Damage Done, and Ult generation with one used every 4s

Back: Green Lotus, for major savagery (crit rating) along with some measure of resource management in the passive and heals linked to your light/heavy attacks.

Bull Netch (obvious) for resource management.

OR the typical/standard Razor Caltrops.

On backbar, I'd say pick and choose but try both Lotus and Bull Netch, and see which works better for you and your group overall; if you are heavy attacking to get the 10% damage bonus from 2H Follow-Up passive, stam management shouldn't be much of an issue.

Sets will obviously be by preference, but with damage done bonuses on your 2H (Greatsword would amplify that more, so test between Greatsword and Maul on a dummy to see which is getting more power through), you can adjust quite a bit into more crit rating or more penetration, as you need.

edited to fix formatting.

Just fyi Maul and Mace are not used at all in PvE, because the penetration of those weapons is calculated after all the debuffs and other types of weapons are much better.

Even with that, a Precise Maul performs well without losing much in terms of penetration, as in on a 4 man party it is around same boost as Sharpened while giving the extra crit rating, or with a nirnhoned same Weapon Damage boost as a Greatsword still with the extra penetration, which Stamina lacks often; it allows you to gear less for penetration also, and still put up good numbers, and even stated there to test and see which you get more out of --- on my 2H Stamblade tests, Sharpened 2H Sword was better, because assassination skills gave me the crit rating, while on 2H Stamplar and Stamsorc tests, Mauls generally did more as the penetration applies consistently, so even on trash (with sorc) the wind fields and such were doing more on trash areas, and on bosses the extra penetration meant if minor fracture fell off for a little or wasn't available for some reason it wasn't much of a change.

Please don't try to "FYI" for things that DO get used, and have builds and usages associated, that just pigeonholes people even further. Mauls can be used just fine in PvE, it just requires gearing towards it slightly differently than for Swords or Axes.

OPs question was is it reasonable for 2H/Bow in PvE, I gave an answer as to how and why, and something that makes some class oriented suggestions, inclusive of flex options, based on a variant I have used that was able to consistently put up 27-30k DPS single-target.

Differences being primarily in that my personal build was for Stamplar, not Warden, and my Flex options were:
Front: Jabs, Power of the Light
Back: Repentance, Rearming Trap, Sweep ult (for aedric passive)

Build at the time WAS utilizing a Maul; current build of a new/different Stamplar is using a Greatsword, but that is only because I managed to luck out and get an Alkosh drop on it.

TLDR; Mauls are perfectly viable and used in PvE, it just has slightly different build needs than Greatsword does. Experiment and see which works better for you.

Also anything under 40k (which itself is a low number) is not a good result

[

and thats with no external buffs...

I have a feeling you're using good as competitive/optimal here, so my reaction may end up being just a different understanding of that post than you meant.

I'd not touch a Maul unless their value is flat myself. *Maybe* solo with no fracture they're better.

Edit: tried four gifs in a row and none load. Oh well.

Yes absolutely...you dont need high dps to clear most content in this game. but posting 27-30k as your dps and with pride is just silly..

DocFrost72

You've been raiding a bit too long to see why someone would be proud of 30k dps, then.

Vajrak

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

What people forget with 2H is that it is perfectly fine in PvE, but you need to utilize it correctly --- it is splash damage on light and HEAVY attacks, and the follow-up skill makes your next direct damage skill do 10% more. sources of bleed come in Brawler (morph of cleave) --- the 10% damage boost applies to Executioner (don't waste it on reverse slice, you don't need the extra splash damage), in trash fights just drop Endless Hail and Cleave to your hearts content until everything is dead --- it keeps a shield on you, does on-hit damage, and applies a DoT all at once. On single target, spam what you have until about 40%, then take over like an execution magplar to some extent, but instead of jesus beam and maintaining DoTs until 15%, it becomes Heavy>Executioner>DoT/Buff Maintain, and 15% down, Heavy-Executioner.

So your 2H skills are:

Cleave>Brawler; the other morph for minor heroism can be nice, but the Shield from Brawler adds to your durability, and a dead DD does 0 DPS.

Reverse Slice>Executioner; the other morph on this can be nice for the splash if you are focusing on optimizing trash fights...but why would you bother doing that?

Momentum>Rally; since you are PvE oriented, the snare removal/immunity isn't really all that necessary, you should have enough stam to break as needed.

Of course, ALL 2H passives.

So your bars, you are looking at something similar to the below:

Front (2H): Flex, Brawler, Flex, Executioner, Rally, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Back: (Bow): Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Rearming Trap, Flex, Flex, Ballista

Flex Options vary by Class, and you are planning on Warden, so I'd look at:
Front: Cutting Dive, Subterranean Assault --- use a Maul with this for the extra % penetration, you are using these primarily for the passive effects of 12% Stam recovery, 12% (for 2 animal skills) Damage Done, and Ult generation with one used every 4s

Back: Green Lotus, for major savagery (crit rating) along with some measure of resource management in the passive and heals linked to your light/heavy attacks.

Bull Netch (obvious) for resource management.

OR the typical/standard Razor Caltrops.

On backbar, I'd say pick and choose but try both Lotus and Bull Netch, and see which works better for you and your group overall; if you are heavy attacking to get the 10% damage bonus from 2H Follow-Up passive, stam management shouldn't be much of an issue.

Sets will obviously be by preference, but with damage done bonuses on your 2H (Greatsword would amplify that more, so test between Greatsword and Maul on a dummy to see which is getting more power through), you can adjust quite a bit into more crit rating or more penetration, as you need.

edited to fix formatting.

Just fyi Maul and Mace are not used at all in PvE, because the penetration of those weapons is calculated after all the debuffs and other types of weapons are much better.

Even with that, a Precise Maul performs well without losing much in terms of penetration, as in on a 4 man party it is around same boost as Sharpened while giving the extra crit rating, or with a nirnhoned same Weapon Damage boost as a Greatsword still with the extra penetration, which Stamina lacks often; it allows you to gear less for penetration also, and still put up good numbers, and even stated there to test and see which you get more out of --- on my 2H Stamblade tests, Sharpened 2H Sword was better, because assassination skills gave me the crit rating, while on 2H Stamplar and Stamsorc tests, Mauls generally did more as the penetration applies consistently, so even on trash (with sorc) the wind fields and such were doing more on trash areas, and on bosses the extra penetration meant if minor fracture fell off for a little or wasn't available for some reason it wasn't much of a change.

Please don't try to "FYI" for things that DO get used, and have builds and usages associated, that just pigeonholes people even further. Mauls can be used just fine in PvE, it just requires gearing towards it slightly differently than for Swords or Axes.

OPs question was is it reasonable for 2H/Bow in PvE, I gave an answer as to how and why, and something that makes some class oriented suggestions, inclusive of flex options, based on a variant I have used that was able to consistently put up 27-30k DPS single-target.

Differences being primarily in that my personal build was for Stamplar, not Warden, and my Flex options were:
Front: Jabs, Power of the Light
Back: Repentance, Rearming Trap, Sweep ult (for aedric passive)

Build at the time WAS utilizing a Maul; current build of a new/different Stamplar is using a Greatsword, but that is only because I managed to luck out and get an Alkosh drop on it.

TLDR; Mauls are perfectly viable and used in PvE, it just has slightly different build needs than Greatsword does. Experiment and see which works better for you.

Also anything under 40k (which itself is a low number) is not a good result

[

and thats with no external buffs...

I have a feeling you're using good as competitive/optimal here, so my reaction may end up being just a different understanding of that post than you meant.

I'd not touch a Maul unless their value is flat myself. *Maybe* solo with no fracture they're better.

Edit: tried four gifs in a row and none load. Oh well.

Yes absolutely...you dont need high dps to clear most content in this game. but posting 27-30k as your dps and with pride is just silly..

27-30k on a low CP (sub 300) is not silly, and isn't a bad benchmark for not having a perfected rotation --- it just is a place to show where it is viable.

Since you are too stuck on top-board elitism, here is the OP's question again:

"Would it be reasonable to go for a 2H/Bow setup on a PVE DD?"

Others who have taken the time to perfect their rotation and practice with it can pull 39-40k+; I didn't bother with going that far with it as I enjoy Magplar more than Stamplar.

https://imgur.com/7PDCoHF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzck6tXEivA

"2H builds are very viable and in some situations even ahead of Dual Wield. Stamina Sorcerer is definitely the favored Class in terms of 2H dps. Tho I also want to try an War Machine Asylum NB Setup with Incap spam." -Alcast

As for mauls:
"A maul will be better than a greatsword in most situations. All you'd have to change is the value from 10% to 20% and the sword bonus from 2.5% to 5%. I ran a few tests now and the value is very high, often above 10k penetration debuffs (which is very very unralistic to have).

To the second point: Because many people either don't test things or simply have no idea what they are talking about. Statements like the ones that discredited yours are simply wrong. Using alkosh as a flat 3k is simply unrealistic, you wont have a crusher enchant on everything you hit, not even talking about major and minor fracture. There are trials like vAA, alright, there it might be realistic, but in the newer trials it is simply not feasible to use that kind of math at all. " -Masel, Class Representative, Author of the tables and thread regarding DPS optimization. by Masel on July 6, 2018 6:46AM

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5282407/#Comment_5282407

So, let's review: On a low-cp/non-optimized rotation, 27-30k DPS Single Target isn't a good point: Okay, there are max CP people playing builds with no practice who don't even hit that, so if 27-30k isn't a good STARTING point, what is?

On people who are practicing/optimizing 40-44k is achievable; is that also not good DPS?

By the math of the game, in many situations, Mauls outperform Greatsword.

So, which is wrong, your bias for following the meta, or the actual mathematically proven and situational displays of optimizing/viability?

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Thank you for the response guys.

hedna123b14_ESO

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

What people forget with 2H is that it is perfectly fine in PvE, but you need to utilize it correctly --- it is splash damage on light and HEAVY attacks, and the follow-up skill makes your next direct damage skill do 10% more. sources of bleed come in Brawler (morph of cleave) --- the 10% damage boost applies to Executioner (don't waste it on reverse slice, you don't need the extra splash damage), in trash fights just drop Endless Hail and Cleave to your hearts content until everything is dead --- it keeps a shield on you, does on-hit damage, and applies a DoT all at once. On single target, spam what you have until about 40%, then take over like an execution magplar to some extent, but instead of jesus beam and maintaining DoTs until 15%, it becomes Heavy>Executioner>DoT/Buff Maintain, and 15% down, Heavy-Executioner.

So your 2H skills are:

Cleave>Brawler; the other morph for minor heroism can be nice, but the Shield from Brawler adds to your durability, and a dead DD does 0 DPS.

Reverse Slice>Executioner; the other morph on this can be nice for the splash if you are focusing on optimizing trash fights...but why would you bother doing that?

Momentum>Rally; since you are PvE oriented, the snare removal/immunity isn't really all that necessary, you should have enough stam to break as needed.

Of course, ALL 2H passives.

So your bars, you are looking at something similar to the below:

Front (2H): Flex, Brawler, Flex, Executioner, Rally, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Back: (Bow): Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Rearming Trap, Flex, Flex, Ballista

Flex Options vary by Class, and you are planning on Warden, so I'd look at:
Front: Cutting Dive, Subterranean Assault --- use a Maul with this for the extra % penetration, you are using these primarily for the passive effects of 12% Stam recovery, 12% (for 2 animal skills) Damage Done, and Ult generation with one used every 4s

Back: Green Lotus, for major savagery (crit rating) along with some measure of resource management in the passive and heals linked to your light/heavy attacks.

Bull Netch (obvious) for resource management.

OR the typical/standard Razor Caltrops.

On backbar, I'd say pick and choose but try both Lotus and Bull Netch, and see which works better for you and your group overall; if you are heavy attacking to get the 10% damage bonus from 2H Follow-Up passive, stam management shouldn't be much of an issue.

Sets will obviously be by preference, but with damage done bonuses on your 2H (Greatsword would amplify that more, so test between Greatsword and Maul on a dummy to see which is getting more power through), you can adjust quite a bit into more crit rating or more penetration, as you need.

edited to fix formatting.

Just fyi Maul and Mace are not used at all in PvE, because the penetration of those weapons is calculated after all the debuffs and other types of weapons are much better.

Even with that, a Precise Maul performs well without losing much in terms of penetration, as in on a 4 man party it is around same boost as Sharpened while giving the extra crit rating, or with a nirnhoned same Weapon Damage boost as a Greatsword still with the extra penetration, which Stamina lacks often; it allows you to gear less for penetration also, and still put up good numbers, and even stated there to test and see which you get more out of --- on my 2H Stamblade tests, Sharpened 2H Sword was better, because assassination skills gave me the crit rating, while on 2H Stamplar and Stamsorc tests, Mauls generally did more as the penetration applies consistently, so even on trash (with sorc) the wind fields and such were doing more on trash areas, and on bosses the extra penetration meant if minor fracture fell off for a little or wasn't available for some reason it wasn't much of a change.

Please don't try to "FYI" for things that DO get used, and have builds and usages associated, that just pigeonholes people even further. Mauls can be used just fine in PvE, it just requires gearing towards it slightly differently than for Swords or Axes.

OPs question was is it reasonable for 2H/Bow in PvE, I gave an answer as to how and why, and something that makes some class oriented suggestions, inclusive of flex options, based on a variant I have used that was able to consistently put up 27-30k DPS single-target.

Differences being primarily in that my personal build was for Stamplar, not Warden, and my Flex options were:
Front: Jabs, Power of the Light
Back: Repentance, Rearming Trap, Sweep ult (for aedric passive)

Build at the time WAS utilizing a Maul; current build of a new/different Stamplar is using a Greatsword, but that is only because I managed to luck out and get an Alkosh drop on it.

TLDR; Mauls are perfectly viable and used in PvE, it just has slightly different build needs than Greatsword does. Experiment and see which works better for you.

Also anything under 40k (which itself is a low number) is not a good result

[

and thats with no external buffs...

I have a feeling you're using good as competitive/optimal here, so my reaction may end up being just a different understanding of that post than you meant.

I'd not touch a Maul unless their value is flat myself. *Maybe* solo with no fracture they're better.

Edit: tried four gifs in a row and none load. Oh well.

Yes absolutely...you dont need high dps to clear most content in this game. but posting 27-30k as your dps and with pride is just silly..

27-30k on a low CP (sub 300) is not silly, and isn't a bad benchmark for not having a perfected rotation --- it just is a place to show where it is viable.

Since you are too stuck on top-board elitism, here is the OP's question again:

"Would it be reasonable to go for a 2H/Bow setup on a PVE DD?"

Others who have taken the time to perfect their rotation and practice with it can pull 39-40k+; I didn't bother with going that far with it as I enjoy Magplar more than Stamplar.

https://imgur.com/7PDCoHF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzck6tXEivA

"2H builds are very viable and in some situations even ahead of Dual Wield. Stamina Sorcerer is definitely the favored Class in terms of 2H dps. Tho I also want to try an War Machine Asylum NB Setup with Incap spam." -Alcast

As for mauls:
"A maul will be better than a greatsword in most situations. All you'd have to change is the value from 10% to 20% and the sword bonus from 2.5% to 5%. I ran a few tests now and the value is very high, often above 10k penetration debuffs (which is very very unralistic to have).

To the second point: Because many people either don't test things or simply have no idea what they are talking about. Statements like the ones that discredited yours are simply wrong. Using alkosh as a flat 3k is simply unrealistic, you wont have a crusher enchant on everything you hit, not even talking about major and minor fracture. There are trials like vAA, alright, there it might be realistic, but in the newer trials it is simply not feasible to use that kind of math at all. " -Masel, Class Representative, Author of the tables and thread regarding DPS optimization. by Masel on July 6, 2018 6:46AM

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5282407/#Comment_5282407

So, let's review: On a low-cp/non-optimized rotation, 27-30k DPS Single Target isn't a good point: Okay, there are max CP people playing builds with no practice who don't even hit that, so if 27-30k isn't a good STARTING point, what is?

On people who are practicing/optimizing 40-44k is achievable; is that also not good DPS?

By the math of the game, in many situations, Mauls outperform Greatsword.

So, which is wrong, your bias for following the meta, or the actual mathematically proven and situational displays of optimizing/viability?

1. No one in competitive PvE uses Mauls.
2. Alcast doesnt use most of the builds he puts on his website because they are not competitive and are specifically aimed at casual players.
3. Having tested a maul extensively in competitive PvE I can tell you that it is trash compared to some other options, specifically because the debuffs are applied before maul.
4. Yes 27k dps is trash, really anything under 50 is not great (with major fracture), but I'm not trying to insult you. I fully recognize that there are many levels to this game and the only point I was trying to make is that even in an unoptimized group a Maul is not a good choice. Mauls after fracture give about 5.1% dos increase. Greatsword give 6%. However as more buffs are applied both of those numbers are affected. Mauls get dramatically reduced, but Greatswords only lose a little. So Greatsword is always better. Again mathematically calculated and tested in game.
5. No offense to Masel because I actually like him, but he does not PvR atthe high end of the competitive spectrum, so he isnt aware that yes you can most certainly get high debuff uptimes in even the newest of trials.
6. Again if I came across as personally attacking you I apologize, it was not my intention..

MashmalloMan

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

What people forget with 2H is that it is perfectly fine in PvE, but you need to utilize it correctly --- it is splash damage on light and HEAVY attacks, and the follow-up skill makes your next direct damage skill do 10% more. sources of bleed come in Brawler (morph of cleave) --- the 10% damage boost applies to Executioner (don't waste it on reverse slice, you don't need the extra splash damage), in trash fights just drop Endless Hail and Cleave to your hearts content until everything is dead --- it keeps a shield on you, does on-hit damage, and applies a DoT all at once. On single target, spam what you have until about 40%, then take over like an execution magplar to some extent, but instead of jesus beam and maintaining DoTs until 15%, it becomes Heavy>Executioner>DoT/Buff Maintain, and 15% down, Heavy-Executioner.

So your 2H skills are:

Cleave>Brawler; the other morph for minor heroism can be nice, but the Shield from Brawler adds to your durability, and a dead DD does 0 DPS.

Reverse Slice>Executioner; the other morph on this can be nice for the splash if you are focusing on optimizing trash fights...but why would you bother doing that?

Momentum>Rally; since you are PvE oriented, the snare removal/immunity isn't really all that necessary, you should have enough stam to break as needed.

Of course, ALL 2H passives.

So your bars, you are looking at something similar to the below:

Front (2H): Flex, Brawler, Flex, Executioner, Rally, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Back: (Bow): Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Rearming Trap, Flex, Flex, Ballista

Flex Options vary by Class, and you are planning on Warden, so I'd look at:
Front: Cutting Dive, Subterranean Assault --- use a Maul with this for the extra % penetration, you are using these primarily for the passive effects of 12% Stam recovery, 12% (for 2 animal skills) Damage Done, and Ult generation with one used every 4s

Back: Green Lotus, for major savagery (crit rating) along with some measure of resource management in the passive and heals linked to your light/heavy attacks.

Bull Netch (obvious) for resource management.

OR the typical/standard Razor Caltrops.

On backbar, I'd say pick and choose but try both Lotus and Bull Netch, and see which works better for you and your group overall; if you are heavy attacking to get the 10% damage bonus from 2H Follow-Up passive, stam management shouldn't be much of an issue.

Sets will obviously be by preference, but with damage done bonuses on your 2H (Greatsword would amplify that more, so test between Greatsword and Maul on a dummy to see which is getting more power through), you can adjust quite a bit into more crit rating or more penetration, as you need.

edited to fix formatting.

Just fyi Maul and Mace are not used at all in PvE, because the penetration of those weapons is calculated after all the debuffs and other types of weapons are much better.

Even with that, a Precise Maul performs well without losing much in terms of penetration, as in on a 4 man party it is around same boost as Sharpened while giving the extra crit rating, or with a nirnhoned same Weapon Damage boost as a Greatsword still with the extra penetration, which Stamina lacks often; it allows you to gear less for penetration also, and still put up good numbers, and even stated there to test and see which you get more out of --- on my 2H Stamblade tests, Sharpened 2H Sword was better, because assassination skills gave me the crit rating, while on 2H Stamplar and Stamsorc tests, Mauls generally did more as the penetration applies consistently, so even on trash (with sorc) the wind fields and such were doing more on trash areas, and on bosses the extra penetration meant if minor fracture fell off for a little or wasn't available for some reason it wasn't much of a change.

Please don't try to "FYI" for things that DO get used, and have builds and usages associated, that just pigeonholes people even further. Mauls can be used just fine in PvE, it just requires gearing towards it slightly differently than for Swords or Axes.

OPs question was is it reasonable for 2H/Bow in PvE, I gave an answer as to how and why, and something that makes some class oriented suggestions, inclusive of flex options, based on a variant I have used that was able to consistently put up 27-30k DPS single-target.

Differences being primarily in that my personal build was for Stamplar, not Warden, and my Flex options were:
Front: Jabs, Power of the Light
Back: Repentance, Rearming Trap, Sweep ult (for aedric passive)

Build at the time WAS utilizing a Maul; current build of a new/different Stamplar is using a Greatsword, but that is only because I managed to luck out and get an Alkosh drop on it.

TLDR; Mauls are perfectly viable and used in PvE, it just has slightly different build needs than Greatsword does. Experiment and see which works better for you.

Also anything under 40k (which itself is a low number) is not a good result

[

and thats with no external buffs...

I have a feeling you're using good as competitive/optimal here, so my reaction may end up being just a different understanding of that post than you meant.

I'd not touch a Maul unless their value is flat myself. *Maybe* solo with no fracture they're better.

Edit: tried four gifs in a row and none load. Oh well.

Yes absolutely...you dont need high dps to clear most content in this game. but posting 27-30k as your dps and with pride is just silly..

27-30k on a low CP (sub 300) is not silly, and isn't a bad benchmark for not having a perfected rotation --- it just is a place to show where it is viable.

Since you are too stuck on top-board elitism, here is the OP's question again:

"Would it be reasonable to go for a 2H/Bow setup on a PVE DD?"

Others who have taken the time to perfect their rotation and practice with it can pull 39-40k+; I didn't bother with going that far with it as I enjoy Magplar more than Stamplar.

https://imgur.com/7PDCoHF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzck6tXEivA

"2H builds are very viable and in some situations even ahead of Dual Wield. Stamina Sorcerer is definitely the favored Class in terms of 2H dps. Tho I also want to try an War Machine Asylum NB Setup with Incap spam." -Alcast

As for mauls:
"A maul will be better than a greatsword in most situations. All you'd have to change is the value from 10% to 20% and the sword bonus from 2.5% to 5%. I ran a few tests now and the value is very high, often above 10k penetration debuffs (which is very very unralistic to have).

To the second point: Because many people either don't test things or simply have no idea what they are talking about. Statements like the ones that discredited yours are simply wrong. Using alkosh as a flat 3k is simply unrealistic, you wont have a crusher enchant on everything you hit, not even talking about major and minor fracture. There are trials like vAA, alright, there it might be realistic, but in the newer trials it is simply not feasible to use that kind of math at all. " -Masel, Class Representative, Author of the tables and thread regarding DPS optimization. by Masel on July 6, 2018 6:46AM

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5282407/#Comment_5282407

So, let's review: On a low-cp/non-optimized rotation, 27-30k DPS Single Target isn't a good point: Okay, there are max CP people playing builds with no practice who don't even hit that, so if 27-30k isn't a good STARTING point, what is?

On people who are practicing/optimizing 40-44k is achievable; is that also not good DPS?

By the math of the game, in many situations, Mauls outperform Greatsword.

So, which is wrong, your bias for following the meta, or the actual mathematically proven and situational displays of optimizing/viability?

Nice rebuttal, but some things to consider.

I still prefer swords because of it being a flat increase, something about varying penetration based on debuffs urks me. Why not just go with something like swords that increase your dmg by 6%, it may not be stronger in all scenario's, but at least it works for end-game optimal groups.

Best case scenario with no debuffs, your looking at 3640 pen.

Major fracture, especially with a warden is applied most of the time, even with trash, so really your getting 2584 pen.

Crusher, Alkosh and Minor Fracture while less reliable than major fracture especially in pugs, lowers the pen you get after debuffs from 2584 (major fracture) to 1170.

So realistically, you get 2584 to 1170 penetration. Depending on your groups debuff uptimes (which really isn't that difficult). Can even get lower value if someone uses Torugs Pact and Infused Crusher.

So why bother with Mauls? Just go sword. It's better as a long term investment until they make mauls more reliable with a flat increase. Possibly under review for update 23, discussed as a patch focused on passives rather than active abiliities of update 22.

hedna123b14_ESO

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

What people forget with 2H is that it is perfectly fine in PvE, but you need to utilize it correctly --- it is splash damage on light and HEAVY attacks, and the follow-up skill makes your next direct damage skill do 10% more. sources of bleed come in Brawler (morph of cleave) --- the 10% damage boost applies to Executioner (don't waste it on reverse slice, you don't need the extra splash damage), in trash fights just drop Endless Hail and Cleave to your hearts content until everything is dead --- it keeps a shield on you, does on-hit damage, and applies a DoT all at once. On single target, spam what you have until about 40%, then take over like an execution magplar to some extent, but instead of jesus beam and maintaining DoTs until 15%, it becomes Heavy>Executioner>DoT/Buff Maintain, and 15% down, Heavy-Executioner.

So your 2H skills are:

Cleave>Brawler; the other morph for minor heroism can be nice, but the Shield from Brawler adds to your durability, and a dead DD does 0 DPS.

Reverse Slice>Executioner; the other morph on this can be nice for the splash if you are focusing on optimizing trash fights...but why would you bother doing that?

Momentum>Rally; since you are PvE oriented, the snare removal/immunity isn't really all that necessary, you should have enough stam to break as needed.

Of course, ALL 2H passives.

So your bars, you are looking at something similar to the below:

Front (2H): Flex, Brawler, Flex, Executioner, Rally, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Back: (Bow): Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Rearming Trap, Flex, Flex, Ballista

Flex Options vary by Class, and you are planning on Warden, so I'd look at:
Front: Cutting Dive, Subterranean Assault --- use a Maul with this for the extra % penetration, you are using these primarily for the passive effects of 12% Stam recovery, 12% (for 2 animal skills) Damage Done, and Ult generation with one used every 4s

Back: Green Lotus, for major savagery (crit rating) along with some measure of resource management in the passive and heals linked to your light/heavy attacks.

Bull Netch (obvious) for resource management.

OR the typical/standard Razor Caltrops.

On backbar, I'd say pick and choose but try both Lotus and Bull Netch, and see which works better for you and your group overall; if you are heavy attacking to get the 10% damage bonus from 2H Follow-Up passive, stam management shouldn't be much of an issue.

Sets will obviously be by preference, but with damage done bonuses on your 2H (Greatsword would amplify that more, so test between Greatsword and Maul on a dummy to see which is getting more power through), you can adjust quite a bit into more crit rating or more penetration, as you need.

edited to fix formatting.

Just fyi Maul and Mace are not used at all in PvE, because the penetration of those weapons is calculated after all the debuffs and other types of weapons are much better.

Even with that, a Precise Maul performs well without losing much in terms of penetration, as in on a 4 man party it is around same boost as Sharpened while giving the extra crit rating, or with a nirnhoned same Weapon Damage boost as a Greatsword still with the extra penetration, which Stamina lacks often; it allows you to gear less for penetration also, and still put up good numbers, and even stated there to test and see which you get more out of --- on my 2H Stamblade tests, Sharpened 2H Sword was better, because assassination skills gave me the crit rating, while on 2H Stamplar and Stamsorc tests, Mauls generally did more as the penetration applies consistently, so even on trash (with sorc) the wind fields and such were doing more on trash areas, and on bosses the extra penetration meant if minor fracture fell off for a little or wasn't available for some reason it wasn't much of a change.

Please don't try to "FYI" for things that DO get used, and have builds and usages associated, that just pigeonholes people even further. Mauls can be used just fine in PvE, it just requires gearing towards it slightly differently than for Swords or Axes.

OPs question was is it reasonable for 2H/Bow in PvE, I gave an answer as to how and why, and something that makes some class oriented suggestions, inclusive of flex options, based on a variant I have used that was able to consistently put up 27-30k DPS single-target.

Differences being primarily in that my personal build was for Stamplar, not Warden, and my Flex options were:
Front: Jabs, Power of the Light
Back: Repentance, Rearming Trap, Sweep ult (for aedric passive)

Build at the time WAS utilizing a Maul; current build of a new/different Stamplar is using a Greatsword, but that is only because I managed to luck out and get an Alkosh drop on it.

TLDR; Mauls are perfectly viable and used in PvE, it just has slightly different build needs than Greatsword does. Experiment and see which works better for you.

Also anything under 40k (which itself is a low number) is not a good result

[

and thats with no external buffs...

I have a feeling you're using good as competitive/optimal here, so my reaction may end up being just a different understanding of that post than you meant.

I'd not touch a Maul unless their value is flat myself. *Maybe* solo with no fracture they're better.

Edit: tried four gifs in a row and none load. Oh well.

Yes absolutely...you dont need high dps to clear most content in this game. but posting 27-30k as your dps and with pride is just silly..

27-30k on a low CP (sub 300) is not silly, and isn't a bad benchmark for not having a perfected rotation --- it just is a place to show where it is viable.

Since you are too stuck on top-board elitism, here is the OP's question again:

"Would it be reasonable to go for a 2H/Bow setup on a PVE DD?"

Others who have taken the time to perfect their rotation and practice with it can pull 39-40k+; I didn't bother with going that far with it as I enjoy Magplar more than Stamplar.

https://imgur.com/7PDCoHF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzck6tXEivA

"2H builds are very viable and in some situations even ahead of Dual Wield. Stamina Sorcerer is definitely the favored Class in terms of 2H dps. Tho I also want to try an War Machine Asylum NB Setup with Incap spam." -Alcast

As for mauls:
"A maul will be better than a greatsword in most situations. All you'd have to change is the value from 10% to 20% and the sword bonus from 2.5% to 5%. I ran a few tests now and the value is very high, often above 10k penetration debuffs (which is very very unralistic to have).

To the second point: Because many people either don't test things or simply have no idea what they are talking about. Statements like the ones that discredited yours are simply wrong. Using alkosh as a flat 3k is simply unrealistic, you wont have a crusher enchant on everything you hit, not even talking about major and minor fracture. There are trials like vAA, alright, there it might be realistic, but in the newer trials it is simply not feasible to use that kind of math at all. " -Masel, Class Representative, Author of the tables and thread regarding DPS optimization. by Masel on July 6, 2018 6:46AM

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5282407/#Comment_5282407

So, let's review: On a low-cp/non-optimized rotation, 27-30k DPS Single Target isn't a good point: Okay, there are max CP people playing builds with no practice who don't even hit that, so if 27-30k isn't a good STARTING point, what is?

On people who are practicing/optimizing 40-44k is achievable; is that also not good DPS?

By the math of the game, in many situations, Mauls outperform Greatsword.

So, which is wrong, your bias for following the meta, or the actual mathematically proven and situational displays of optimizing/viability?

Nice rebuttal, but some things to consider.

I still prefer swords because of it being a flat increase, something about varying penetration based on debuffs urks me. Why not just go with something like swords that increase your dmg by 6%, it may not be stronger in all scenario's, but at least it works for end-game optimal groups.

Best case scenario with no debuffs, your looking at 3640 pen.

Major fracture, especially with a warden is applied most of the time, even with trash, so really your getting 2584 pen.

Crusher, Alkosh and Minor Fracture while less reliable than major fracture especially in pugs, lowers the pen you get after debuffs from 2584 (major fracture) to 1170.

So realistically, you get 2584 to 1170 penetration. Depending on your groups debuff uptimes (which really isn't that difficult). Can even get lower value if someone uses Torugs Pact and Infused Crusher.

So why bother with Mauls? Just go sword. It's better as a long term investment until they make mauls more reliable with a flat increase. Possibly under review for update 23, discussed as a patch focused on passives rather than active abiliities of update 22.

Honestly they should give maces and mauls something more substantial, if not flat penetration then maybe ulti gen.

Stx

One of the two handers should offer crit.

Vajrak

Which goes to the point I was making -- OP's question wasn't about full optimization, just viability --- as a Warden, he needs to test and see which he gets the most out of, as he is already getting the 12% damage done bonus from Warden: Animal Companion Passives on front bar.

Once someone learns a skill line/combo/set is viable, it is up to them to optimize it to their playstyle---there are a LOT of lateral moves available in terms of set and weapon choices --- my Magplar currently sits at 6.5k buffed Spell Damage with 50% Crit using Rattlecage/War Maiden and 37k Max Mag --- is it doing 40-50k ? No. Why? Because I'm sloppy about my rotation, since I don't care for scoreboards, just enough efficiency to go through the veterans content, not pull massive leaderboard scores (at least not yet, other things I want to finish in the game before that becomes my focus).

Things can get heated in discussions, but for someone to see if a combo is viable, if it can put out 25k before optimization, it can very likely be viable within 1-3% of the top end, it's just up to you to find how to get to that top end through practice and experience.

hedna123b14_ESO

Vajrak wrote: »

Which goes to the point I was making -- OP's question wasn't about full optimization, just viability --- as a Warden, he needs to test and see which he gets the most out of, as he is already getting the 12% damage done bonus from Warden: Animal Companion Passives on front bar.

Once someone learns a skill line/combo/set is viable, it is up to them to optimize it to their playstyle---there are a LOT of lateral moves available in terms of set and weapon choices --- my Magplar currently sits at 6.5k buffed Spell Damage with 50% Crit using Rattlecage/War Maiden and 37k Max Mag --- is it doing 40-50k ? No. Why? Because I'm sloppy about my rotation, since I don't care for scoreboards, just enough efficiency to go through the veterans content, not pull massive leaderboard scores (at least not yet, other things I want to finish in the game before that becomes my focus).

Things can get heated in discussions, but for someone to see if a combo is viable, if it can put out 25k before optimization, it can very likely be viable within 1-3% of the top end, it's just up to you to find how to get to that top end through practice and experience.

I am so tempted to comment on the fact that you use war maiden and rattlecage in PvE, but I'll just stay quiet.

Vajrak

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

Which goes to the point I was making -- OP's question wasn't about full optimization, just viability --- as a Warden, he needs to test and see which he gets the most out of, as he is already getting the 12% damage done bonus from Warden: Animal Companion Passives on front bar.

Once someone learns a skill line/combo/set is viable, it is up to them to optimize it to their playstyle---there are a LOT of lateral moves available in terms of set and weapon choices --- my Magplar currently sits at 6.5k buffed Spell Damage with 50% Crit using Rattlecage/War Maiden and 37k Max Mag --- is it doing 40-50k ? No. Why? Because I'm sloppy about my rotation, since I don't care for scoreboards, just enough efficiency to go through the veterans content, not pull massive leaderboard scores (at least not yet, other things I want to finish in the game before that becomes my focus).

Things can get heated in discussions, but for someone to see if a combo is viable, if it can put out 25k before optimization, it can very likely be viable within 1-3% of the top end, it's just up to you to find how to get to that top end through practice and experience.

I am so tempted to comment on the fact that you use war maiden and rattlecage in PvE, but I'll just stay quiet.

Feel free to comment on it --- it works for me just fine, if I push for keeping my rotation tight I can hit around 47k, but I prefer to just stay on vet (DLC and non) and the older trials until I find a group I'm inclined to run with, so pushing for more and practicing the rotation isn't something I care to do --- if 10k average penetration, 50% crit rate, 6.5k spell damage, and 37k max mag isn't the right deal for good stats (2x arcane rattle rings from the uniques, 1x war maiden ring, DW rattle cage swords (Omen's Edge, one nirnhoned, lightning war maiden backbar, so only using 1 Heavy piece) then there is a bigger problem than the stats. And the only reason DW swords over 2H is I haven't gotten the 2h Rattlecage Sword to drop yet, keep getting f'n Greataxe.

T3hasiangod

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

What people forget with 2H is that it is perfectly fine in PvE, but you need to utilize it correctly --- it is splash damage on light and HEAVY attacks, and the follow-up skill makes your next direct damage skill do 10% more. sources of bleed come in Brawler (morph of cleave) --- the 10% damage boost applies to Executioner (don't waste it on reverse slice, you don't need the extra splash damage), in trash fights just drop Endless Hail and Cleave to your hearts content until everything is dead --- it keeps a shield on you, does on-hit damage, and applies a DoT all at once. On single target, spam what you have until about 40%, then take over like an execution magplar to some extent, but instead of jesus beam and maintaining DoTs until 15%, it becomes Heavy>Executioner>DoT/Buff Maintain, and 15% down, Heavy-Executioner.

So your 2H skills are:

Cleave>Brawler; the other morph for minor heroism can be nice, but the Shield from Brawler adds to your durability, and a dead DD does 0 DPS.

Reverse Slice>Executioner; the other morph on this can be nice for the splash if you are focusing on optimizing trash fights...but why would you bother doing that?

Momentum>Rally; since you are PvE oriented, the snare removal/immunity isn't really all that necessary, you should have enough stam to break as needed.

Of course, ALL 2H passives.

So your bars, you are looking at something similar to the below:

Front (2H): Flex, Brawler, Flex, Executioner, Rally, Flawless Dawnbreaker
Back: (Bow): Poison Injection, Endless Hail, Rearming Trap, Flex, Flex, Ballista

Flex Options vary by Class, and you are planning on Warden, so I'd look at:
Front: Cutting Dive, Subterranean Assault --- use a Maul with this for the extra % penetration, you are using these primarily for the passive effects of 12% Stam recovery, 12% (for 2 animal skills) Damage Done, and Ult generation with one used every 4s

Back: Green Lotus, for major savagery (crit rating) along with some measure of resource management in the passive and heals linked to your light/heavy attacks.

Bull Netch (obvious) for resource management.

OR the typical/standard Razor Caltrops.

On backbar, I'd say pick and choose but try both Lotus and Bull Netch, and see which works better for you and your group overall; if you are heavy attacking to get the 10% damage bonus from 2H Follow-Up passive, stam management shouldn't be much of an issue.

Sets will obviously be by preference, but with damage done bonuses on your 2H (Greatsword would amplify that more, so test between Greatsword and Maul on a dummy to see which is getting more power through), you can adjust quite a bit into more crit rating or more penetration, as you need.

edited to fix formatting.

Just fyi Maul and Mace are not used at all in PvE, because the penetration of those weapons is calculated after all the debuffs and other types of weapons are much better.

Even with that, a Precise Maul performs well without losing much in terms of penetration, as in on a 4 man party it is around same boost as Sharpened while giving the extra crit rating, or with a nirnhoned same Weapon Damage boost as a Greatsword still with the extra penetration, which Stamina lacks often; it allows you to gear less for penetration also, and still put up good numbers, and even stated there to test and see which you get more out of --- on my 2H Stamblade tests, Sharpened 2H Sword was better, because assassination skills gave me the crit rating, while on 2H Stamplar and Stamsorc tests, Mauls generally did more as the penetration applies consistently, so even on trash (with sorc) the wind fields and such were doing more on trash areas, and on bosses the extra penetration meant if minor fracture fell off for a little or wasn't available for some reason it wasn't much of a change.

Please don't try to "FYI" for things that DO get used, and have builds and usages associated, that just pigeonholes people even further. Mauls can be used just fine in PvE, it just requires gearing towards it slightly differently than for Swords or Axes.

OPs question was is it reasonable for 2H/Bow in PvE, I gave an answer as to how and why, and something that makes some class oriented suggestions, inclusive of flex options, based on a variant I have used that was able to consistently put up 27-30k DPS single-target.

Differences being primarily in that my personal build was for Stamplar, not Warden, and my Flex options were:
Front: Jabs, Power of the Light
Back: Repentance, Rearming Trap, Sweep ult (for aedric passive)

Build at the time WAS utilizing a Maul; current build of a new/different Stamplar is using a Greatsword, but that is only because I managed to luck out and get an Alkosh drop on it.

TLDR; Mauls are perfectly viable and used in PvE, it just has slightly different build needs than Greatsword does. Experiment and see which works better for you.

Also anything under 40k (which itself is a low number) is not a good result

[

and thats with no external buffs...

I have a feeling you're using good as competitive/optimal here, so my reaction may end up being just a different understanding of that post than you meant.

I'd not touch a Maul unless their value is flat myself. *Maybe* solo with no fracture they're better.

Edit: tried four gifs in a row and none load. Oh well.

Yes absolutely...you dont need high dps to clear most content in this game. but posting 27-30k as your dps and with pride is just silly..

27-30k on a low CP (sub 300) is not silly, and isn't a bad benchmark for not having a perfected rotation --- it just is a place to show where it is viable.

Since you are too stuck on top-board elitism, here is the OP's question again:

"Would it be reasonable to go for a 2H/Bow setup on a PVE DD?"

Others who have taken the time to perfect their rotation and practice with it can pull 39-40k+; I didn't bother with going that far with it as I enjoy Magplar more than Stamplar.

https://imgur.com/7PDCoHF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzck6tXEivA

"2H builds are very viable and in some situations even ahead of Dual Wield. Stamina Sorcerer is definitely the favored Class in terms of 2H dps. Tho I also want to try an War Machine Asylum NB Setup with Incap spam." -Alcast

As for mauls:
"A maul will be better than a greatsword in most situations. All you'd have to change is the value from 10% to 20% and the sword bonus from 2.5% to 5%. I ran a few tests now and the value is very high, often above 10k penetration debuffs (which is very very unralistic to have).

To the second point: Because many people either don't test things or simply have no idea what they are talking about. Statements like the ones that discredited yours are simply wrong. Using alkosh as a flat 3k is simply unrealistic, you wont have a crusher enchant on everything you hit, not even talking about major and minor fracture. There are trials like vAA, alright, there it might be realistic, but in the newer trials it is simply not feasible to use that kind of math at all. " -Masel, Class Representative, Author of the tables and thread regarding DPS optimization. by Masel on July 6, 2018 6:46AM

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5282407/#Comment_5282407

So, let's review: On a low-cp/non-optimized rotation, 27-30k DPS Single Target isn't a good point: Okay, there are max CP people playing builds with no practice who don't even hit that, so if 27-30k isn't a good STARTING point, what is?

On people who are practicing/optimizing 40-44k is achievable; is that also not good DPS?

By the math of the game, in many situations, Mauls outperform Greatsword.

So, which is wrong, your bias for following the meta, or the actual mathematically proven and situational displays of optimizing/viability?

Ok, so here's the thing: maces and mauls are mathematically inferior to swords and greatswords. Even with mediocre debuff uptimes on Alkosh, Power of the Light, and infused Crusher, swords are doing better than maces, especially since they now do 3/6 percent damage done compared to 2.5/5 from before.

No offense to Masel, but from a purely mathematical standpoint, maces and mauls are only superior to swords and greatswords if the only debuffs you have is Major Fracture and a 1H infused Crusher (alternatively a 2H infused Crusher with 50 percent uptime). If you have even 20 percent uptime on Alkosh, swords and greatswords win.

T3hasiangod

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

Which goes to the point I was making -- OP's question wasn't about full optimization, just viability --- as a Warden, he needs to test and see which he gets the most out of, as he is already getting the 12% damage done bonus from Warden: Animal Companion Passives on front bar.

Once someone learns a skill line/combo/set is viable, it is up to them to optimize it to their playstyle---there are a LOT of lateral moves available in terms of set and weapon choices --- my Magplar currently sits at 6.5k buffed Spell Damage with 50% Crit using Rattlecage/War Maiden and 37k Max Mag --- is it doing 40-50k ? No. Why? Because I'm sloppy about my rotation, since I don't care for scoreboards, just enough efficiency to go through the veterans content, not pull massive leaderboard scores (at least not yet, other things I want to finish in the game before that becomes my focus).

Things can get heated in discussions, but for someone to see if a combo is viable, if it can put out 25k before optimization, it can very likely be viable within 1-3% of the top end, it's just up to you to find how to get to that top end through practice and experience.

I am so tempted to comment on the fact that you use war maiden and rattlecage in PvE, but I'll just stay quiet.

Feel free to comment on it --- it works for me just fine, if I push for keeping my rotation tight I can hit around 47k, but I prefer to just stay on vet (DLC and non) and the older trials until I find a group I'm inclined to run with, so pushing for more and practicing the rotation isn't something I care to do --- if 10k average penetration, 50% crit rate, 6.5k spell damage, and 37k max mag isn't the right deal for good stats (2x arcane rattle rings from the uniques, 1x war maiden ring, DW rattle cage swords (Omen's Edge, one nirnhoned, lightning war maiden backbar, so only using 1 Heavy piece) then there is a bigger problem than the stats. And the only reason DW swords over 2H is I haven't gotten the 2h Rattlecage Sword to drop yet, keep getting f'n Greataxe.

I highly doubt you're hitting 47k on a DW magplar. You'd be losing easily ~10k on light attacks alone. There's also no mathematical way for you to get 6.5k spell damage with current buffs in the game using those sets.

hedna123b14_ESO

Vajrak wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

Which goes to the point I was making -- OP's question wasn't about full optimization, just viability --- as a Warden, he needs to test and see which he gets the most out of, as he is already getting the 12% damage done bonus from Warden: Animal Companion Passives on front bar.

Once someone learns a skill line/combo/set is viable, it is up to them to optimize it to their playstyle---there are a LOT of lateral moves available in terms of set and weapon choices --- my Magplar currently sits at 6.5k buffed Spell Damage with 50% Crit using Rattlecage/War Maiden and 37k Max Mag --- is it doing 40-50k ? No. Why? Because I'm sloppy about my rotation, since I don't care for scoreboards, just enough efficiency to go through the veterans content, not pull massive leaderboard scores (at least not yet, other things I want to finish in the game before that becomes my focus).

Things can get heated in discussions, but for someone to see if a combo is viable, if it can put out 25k before optimization, it can very likely be viable within 1-3% of the top end, it's just up to you to find how to get to that top end through practice and experience.

I am so tempted to comment on the fact that you use war maiden and rattlecage in PvE, but I'll just stay quiet.

Feel free to comment on it --- it works for me just fine, if I push for keeping my rotation tight I can hit around 47k, but I prefer to just stay on vet (DLC and non) and the older trials until I find a group I'm inclined to run with, so pushing for more and practicing the rotation isn't something I care to do --- if 10k average penetration, 50% crit rate, 6.5k spell damage, and 37k max mag isn't the right deal for good stats (2x arcane rattle rings from the uniques, 1x war maiden ring, DW rattle cage swords (Omen's Edge, one nirnhoned, lightning war maiden backbar, so only using 1 Heavy piece) then there is a bigger problem than the stats. And the only reason DW swords over 2H is I haven't gotten the 2h Rattlecage Sword to drop yet, keep getting f'n Greataxe.

You are using stam weapons on a magicka build?