Cape me up baby

aaisoaho

John_Falstaff wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Spoken like someone truly knowledgeable about the server lag issues.

If they actually did understand they would know that the only way capes can be added without adding to known server load issues if for the capes to be stapled to our butts. Zos really does not want half ass capes so they will not add them.

BTW, there is already one cape in game and the cape is stapled to the buttocks. It is the Bretton hero costume that was sold in the crown store.

Mashille wrote: »

Yeah, why shouldn't they add capes? The performance is trash anyway, who cares if it gets a bit worse.

And this is so logical. It would be such a fabulous idea for Zos to make things even worse. Great business philosophy all companies and organizations should follow.

Sounds like someone doesn't know much about game software architecture.

There's nothing server-side about capes. Cape animation and its relation to the body it's on is completely client-side; server does not hold any graphical detail about the character displayed on the screen - game exchanges character position and orientation, look direction, but when someone does an emote, only the fact of that emote happening must be transferred, and game clients on each side are responsible for locally performing all animations. Server does not care about all the polygons and textures transformed and rendered in the client to make grass move or rain droplets fall (or cape move and ripple as character moves). ESO doesn't even seem to transfer weather information (pull a friend to your house and, as often as not, weather in same instance will be appearing different for the two of you).

The only reason for not adding capes I see is that the engine is made in-house, it's not modern by current standards and doesn't have any support for soft body physics. And considering the amount of issues game already has, adding that support is hardly an urgent thing.

Yes, capes wouldn't cause server-side issues... But the problem was/is that you either have clipping cardboard 'capes' or you will have performance issues with cloth-physics and multiple capes in the screen. IIRC They wanted to implement good looking capes, but the performance took a way too big of a hit - by going trough the shortcut - the prerendered animation - they got clipping issues and the capes didn't look good enough to them and thus removed the capes.

Why other games have capes? Well, there's a limit on how complex you can make a game. To get capes, you need to cut something else from the game. Maybe the games with capes have less detailed world? (or something else is being left out of the game)

zaria

Silvrian wrote: »

Server lag and blah blah blah, still think there’s no excuse for their servers not to Being able to handle some physics like capes in 2020. You all continue defending for the point of being a fan.

I’m a fan too, but seriously, it’s just ridiculous to blame sever lag issues. A sub and micro transaction based game with tons of players. Does nobody see my point? Why continue defending ZOS when you know there’s no excuse blaming lag

Capes does not affect servers at all as they cosmetic outfits.
They do affect client side performance because you have to do cloth physic on 100 players at once on top of handling an large pvp zerg fight.

You will also get load of clipping issues with armor, weapons on back and tails altroug cloth physic would handle some of it.

zaria

John_Falstaff wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Spoken like someone truly knowledgeable about the server lag issues.

If they actually did understand they would know that the only way capes can be added without adding to known server load issues if for the capes to be stapled to our butts. Zos really does not want half ass capes so they will not add them.

BTW, there is already one cape in game and the cape is stapled to the buttocks. It is the Bretton hero costume that was sold in the crown store.

Mashille wrote: »

Yeah, why shouldn't they add capes? The performance is trash anyway, who cares if it gets a bit worse.

And this is so logical. It would be such a fabulous idea for Zos to make things even worse. Great business philosophy all companies and organizations should follow.

Sounds like someone doesn't know much about game software architecture.

There's nothing server-side about capes. Cape animation and its relation to the body it's on is completely client-side; server does not hold any graphical detail about the character displayed on the screen - game exchanges character position and orientation, look direction, but when someone does an emote, only the fact of that emote happening must be transferred, and game clients on each side are responsible for locally performing all animations. Server does not care about all the polygons and textures transformed and rendered in the client to make grass move or rain droplets fall (or cape move and ripple as character moves). ESO doesn't even seem to transfer weather information (pull a friend to your house and, as often as not, weather in same instance will be appearing different for the two of you).

The only reason for not adding capes I see is that the engine is made in-house, it's not modern by current standards and doesn't have any support for soft body physics. And considering the amount of issues game already has, adding that support is hardly an urgent thing.

i think they have some cloth physic
Look on that hair during the swing.

On the other hand it will clip with armor and hair could be rigged for that effect to.

John_Falstaff

@zaria , mm-m, I frankly suspect that the hair there might be a premade animation, same transform every time an attack animation happens, no real-time soft body physics involved. But yes, to you and @aaisoaho - true, there's probably a lot of hassle with body shape boundaries, clipping, resources to show capes on a hundred players around (or a way to gracefully degrade rendering of capes for others on the screen), risk of raising hardware requirements and everything. So I can understand how something like capes wouldn't be a priority. The only point was that capes have nothing to do with server load or lag.

idk

John_Falstaff wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Spoken like someone truly knowledgeable about the server lag issues.

If they actually did understand they would know that the only way capes can be added without adding to known server load issues if for the capes to be stapled to our butts. Zos really does not want half ass capes so they will not add them.

BTW, there is already one cape in game and the cape is stapled to the buttocks. It is the Bretton hero costume that was sold in the crown store.

Mashille wrote: »

Yeah, why shouldn't they add capes? The performance is trash anyway, who cares if it gets a bit worse.

And this is so logical. It would be such a fabulous idea for Zos to make things even worse. Great business philosophy all companies and organizations should follow.

Sounds like someone doesn't know much about game software architecture.

How much time have you spent working on the ESO servers and game? Yes, I thought so.

Pretty sure it was Zos themselves that spoke to performance as a reason for not adding capes. Of course this was several years ago, but it happened. Even with the issues they have brought to the game I would still take their word on this over yours.

Considering ESO did have capes in testing there really is no reason other than performance for them to not be in the game now.

Just look at the first character in this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlEipFtHw7o&feature=youtu.be&t=2m28s

Note, that is from 2012. Well before this game launched.

NordSwordnBoard

ESO is incapable, and that's all there is to it.

John_Falstaff

idk wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Spoken like someone truly knowledgeable about the server lag issues.

If they actually did understand they would know that the only way capes can be added without adding to known server load issues if for the capes to be stapled to our butts. Zos really does not want half ass capes so they will not add them.

BTW, there is already one cape in game and the cape is stapled to the buttocks. It is the Bretton hero costume that was sold in the crown store.

Mashille wrote: »

Yeah, why shouldn't they add capes? The performance is trash anyway, who cares if it gets a bit worse.

And this is so logical. It would be such a fabulous idea for Zos to make things even worse. Great business philosophy all companies and organizations should follow.

Sounds like someone doesn't know much about game software architecture.

How much time have you spent working on the ESO servers and game? Yes, I thought so.

Pretty sure it was Zos themselves that spoke to performance as a reason for not adding capes. Of course this was several years ago, but it happened. Even with the issues they have brought to the game I would still take their word on this over yours.

How much did you spend working on games in general? Thought so.

Pretty sure ZOS never implied server side performance. And you know, you've just tried to bash OP for not knowing that capes will add to server load issues - that's a quote. Point in case, before bashing someone for not knowing how game servers work, make sure you know anything about the subject.

Odnoc

Silvrian wrote: »

WHY can other Games’s handle it then? Even fully f2p games. But ESO cannot? Please explain

Really? It's common sense, their servers are doing less...

idk

John_Falstaff wrote: »

idk wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Spoken like someone truly knowledgeable about the server lag issues.

If they actually did understand they would know that the only way capes can be added without adding to known server load issues if for the capes to be stapled to our butts. Zos really does not want half ass capes so they will not add them.

BTW, there is already one cape in game and the cape is stapled to the buttocks. It is the Bretton hero costume that was sold in the crown store.

Mashille wrote: »

Yeah, why shouldn't they add capes? The performance is trash anyway, who cares if it gets a bit worse.

And this is so logical. It would be such a fabulous idea for Zos to make things even worse. Great business philosophy all companies and organizations should follow.

Sounds like someone doesn't know much about game software architecture.

How much time have you spent working on the ESO servers and game? Yes, I thought so.

Pretty sure it was Zos themselves that spoke to performance as a reason for not adding capes. Of course this was several years ago, but it happened. Even with the issues they have brought to the game I would still take their word on this over yours.

How much did you spend working on games in general? Thought so.

Pretty sure ZOS never implied server side performance. And you know, you've just tried to bash OP for not knowing that capes will add to server load issues - that's a quote. Point in case, before bashing someone for not knowing how game servers work, make sure you know anything about the subject.

LOL. I did not come off as an expert. Of course I am wiling to admit I might have mistaken them saying performance for server side, but I am certainly not blowing smoke.

notyuu

Screw capes, I just want a weapon seathe.

John_Falstaff

idk wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

idk wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Spoken like someone truly knowledgeable about the server lag issues.

If they actually did understand they would know that the only way capes can be added without adding to known server load issues if for the capes to be stapled to our butts. Zos really does not want half ass capes so they will not add them.

BTW, there is already one cape in game and the cape is stapled to the buttocks. It is the Bretton hero costume that was sold in the crown store.

Mashille wrote: »

Yeah, why shouldn't they add capes? The performance is trash anyway, who cares if it gets a bit worse.

And this is so logical. It would be such a fabulous idea for Zos to make things even worse. Great business philosophy all companies and organizations should follow.

Sounds like someone doesn't know much about game software architecture.

How much time have you spent working on the ESO servers and game? Yes, I thought so.

Pretty sure it was Zos themselves that spoke to performance as a reason for not adding capes. Of course this was several years ago, but it happened. Even with the issues they have brought to the game I would still take their word on this over yours.

How much did you spend working on games in general? Thought so.

Pretty sure ZOS never implied server side performance. And you know, you've just tried to bash OP for not knowing that capes will add to server load issues - that's a quote. Point in case, before bashing someone for not knowing how game servers work, make sure you know anything about the subject.

LOL. I did not come off as an expert. Of course I am wiling to admit I might have mistaken them saying performance for server side, but I am certainly not blowing smoke.

"Spoken like someone truly knowledgeable about the server lag issues. <...> If they actually did understand..." - the one and only quote that made me reply; wittingly or not, aggressively taking position of authority on the subject, and it's not cool to put pressure on OP with information that's a mistake in first place. That's also how little viral myths are born. Think we sorted that out now, and I've no issues with anything else but that bit.

ecru

only if i can finally get my cloudsong

Kesstryl

idk wrote: »

John_Falstaff wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Spoken like someone truly knowledgeable about the server lag issues.

If they actually did understand they would know that the only way capes can be added without adding to known server load issues if for the capes to be stapled to our butts. Zos really does not want half ass capes so they will not add them.

BTW, there is already one cape in game and the cape is stapled to the buttocks. It is the Bretton hero costume that was sold in the crown store.

Mashille wrote: »

Yeah, why shouldn't they add capes? The performance is trash anyway, who cares if it gets a bit worse.

And this is so logical. It would be such a fabulous idea for Zos to make things even worse. Great business philosophy all companies and organizations should follow.

Sounds like someone doesn't know much about game software architecture.

How much time have you spent working on the ESO servers and game? Yes, I thought so.

Pretty sure it was Zos themselves that spoke to performance as a reason for not adding capes. Of course this was several years ago, but it happened. Even with the issues they have brought to the game I would still take their word on this over yours.

Considering ESO did have capes in testing there really is no reason other than performance for them to not be in the game now.

Just look at the first character in this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlEipFtHw7o&amp;feature=youtu.be&amp;t=2m28s

Note, that is from 2012. Well before this game launched.

OMgosh they did have a toon with a cape, and it looked awesome! *sighs for what could have been*

Enemy-of-Coldharbour

Noctus

jcm2606 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

This AGAIN?!

ZoS has repeatedly stated that the physics calculations the server would have the make to have capes not look like a piece of cardboard attached to the back of your neck for 1000s of people would cause a large performance hit on the servers.
They had to remove the deer from Cyrodiil for God's sake to reduce lag. Capes would probably crash the server.

Making the game be more of a slide show just to have a flapping piece of cloth on your back not an option

So
NO CAPES!!!!

As I said above, capes do not have to be on the servers. Capes can be completely client sided, since their impact is only visual. Who cares if a cape is flapping slightly differently between you and a friend?

EDIT: It also wouldn't be anywhere near 1000's of people. In overland zones, 200-300 at the most, if even, and Cyrodiil, maybe a thousand, maybe. Remember that instancing is a thing, we're not all in the one zone, we're in multiple versions of that same zone. Each instance is within its own little container, such that one instance generally doesn't impact another. Alik'r Desert is proof of this. Hop into any Alik'r instance where the dolmens are absolutely packed, and the entire zone suffers from that load. Hop into any other zone, everything's fine.

I don't think it works the way you think it does.
The devs removed them from the game for a reason and have said the game can't do it. I'll trust their judgment on it before any of the forum armchair developers.

It literally does. How do you think online games like Warframe, with actual physics simulations for their cloaks, capes and dangly bits, are able to have 50+ people on screen and still keep 50-60 FPS, and low ping? It's done on the client.

The only difference between doing something on the server and the client when it comes to things like this is consistency between users. If the server is doing the physics calculations, then you and your friend will see more or less the exact same thing. If the client were to do the physics calculations, though, you and your friend will probably see slightly different things, and might see completely different things. When it comes to things that impact gameplay, that consistency is important in an online game, but for something that's only there to look pretty? Who cares, seriously.

As for the instancing, IDK, it might work that way, it might not. Based on how the servers perform when a particular instance is under heavy load, it'd seem that the instances are independent like I explained.

it would desync people in a weird way i guess. if u played warframe pvp u will notice that u get hit by shots that arent aimed at you. so in pvp for example you would get feared when it shows u that ur opponent use another skill for example..... if thats the case than no thx

Ratzkifal

It's quite simple. Players wanted capes for the longest of times. ZOS added Wardens and Necromancers, brought Dragons back, player housing and storage etc. You really think ZO$ wouldn't make lots of reskinned cosmetic capes to sell in the crown store if they could?
You can be sure that this company will follow popular demand (like capes) if they can milk money from it, but only as long as it is in the realm of the possible. Same reason why they don't add more slots to player homes.
But hey, they are fixing lots of lag issues right now. Maybe we will get to a point where capes are possible. They could even be hidden in Cyrodiil if necessary.

Silvrian

Some of these answers are quite impressive! Any chance to get a response from ZOS?

🙏🏻

hakan

in most of the cape mmos, capes are either look like cardboard or clip thru your belly/ass. look at breton hero armor.

Kram8ion

Yeah right now the Brenton hero costume is the only option but it must be made from polyester coz that *** is full of static and sticks to your legs

barney2525

Katahdin wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

This AGAIN?!

ZoS has repeatedly stated that the physics calculations the server would have the make to have capes not look like a piece of cardboard attached to the back of your neck for 1000s of people would cause a large performance hit on the servers.
They had to remove the deer from Cyrodiil for God's sake to reduce lag. Capes would probably crash the server.

Making the game be more of a slide show just to have a flapping piece of cloth on your back not an option

So
NO CAPES!!!!

As I said above, capes do not have to be on the servers. Capes can be completely client sided, since their impact is only visual. Who cares if a cape is flapping slightly differently between you and a friend?

EDIT: It also wouldn't be anywhere near 1000's of people. In overland zones, 200-300 at the most, if even, and Cyrodiil, maybe a thousand, maybe. Remember that instancing is a thing, we're not all in the one zone, we're in multiple versions of that same zone. Each instance is within its own little container, such that one instance generally doesn't impact another. Alik'r Desert is proof of this. Hop into any Alik'r instance where the dolmens are absolutely packed, and the entire zone suffers from that load. Hop into any other zone, everything's fine.

I don't think it works the way you think it does.
The devs removed them from the game for a reason and have said the game can't do it. I'll trust their judgment on it before any of the forum armchair developers.

It literally does. How do you think online games like Warframe, with actual physics simulations for their cloaks, capes and dangly bits, are able to have 50+ people on screen and still keep 50-60 FPS, and low ping? It's done on the client.

The only difference between doing something on the server and the client when it comes to things like this is consistency between users. If the server is doing the physics calculations, then you and your friend will see more or less the exact same thing. If the client were to do the physics calculations, though, you and your friend will probably see slightly different things, and might see completely different things. When it comes to things that impact gameplay, that consistency is important in an online game, but for something that's only there to look pretty? Who cares, seriously.

As for the instancing, IDK, it might work that way, it might not. Based on how the servers perform when a particular instance is under heavy load, it'd seem that the instances are independent like I explained.

Have you ever noticed that every mount in the game does the exact same automatic animation at the exact same time?

Pretty sure the devs know their game and its capabilities better than you do.

It was removed for a reason.

The game is CPU bottlenecked enough for graphics. Adding a flapping cape and turning it into even more of a slide show is not an option. So again no thank you.

But they move differently. Riding a horse is completely different from riding a bear which is completely different from riding a camel.

I dunno what the reason is we don't use cloaks, Archeage was a very high graphics game and they had lotsa cloaks.

Don't the answer. Just an observation.

Ryknos

I don't think capes would cause server lag because animation files are normally stored locally within the game files. Each character is simply a collection of files in which the data within the packets pull data out from. Those character files simply contain your character's history, outfits, collections, and the associated bit flags to be turned on for your character, are stored locally on Bethesda/Zenimax Studio servers, what YOU as the client have is simply the 3D elements that make up the textures, the animations, the world, and every little asset that makes up the world of Tamriel.

That being said, adding an animation for a cape is the equivalent of giving you a horse. You simply pull out files locally to yield what you see in the screen. A cape for all intents and purposes, has not been added for the mere reason that nobody wants to add more work because they are lazy. You can easily add a skeleton to every standard character model to include a spot with a cape on it.

MMOs including ESO tend to be really low bandwidth for redundancy in fact you can run some on a 120 Kbps connection, and sure you will experience a little bit more lag when you are playing with others, but that pretty much dismisses the idea that you're pushing out heavy amounts of traffic from your house simply for a cape.

Ryknos

Ryknos wrote: »

I don't think capes would cause server lag because animation files are normally stored locally within the game files. Each character is simply a collection of files in which the data within the packets pull data out from. Those character files simply contain your character's history, outfits, collections, and the associated bit flags to be turned on for your character, are stored locally on Bethesda/Zenimax Studio servers, what YOU as the client have is simply the 3D elements that make up the textures, the animations, the world, and every little asset that makes up the world of Tamriel.

That being said, adding an animation for a cape is the equivalent of giving you a horse. You simply pull out files locally to yield what you see in the screen. A cape for all intents and purposes, has not been added for the mere reason that nobody wants to add more work because they are lazy. You can easily add a skeleton to every standard character model to include a spot with a cape on it.

MMOs including ESO tend to be really low bandwidth for redundancy in fact you can run some on a 120 Kbps connection, and sure you will experience a little bit more lag when you are playing with others, but that pretty much dismisses the idea that you're pushing out heavy amounts of traffic from your house simply for a cape.

Also the release of the game was pushed out with some major flaws that come up on an unfinished game, animating the cape means you have to make a behavior for the cape itself when you get knocked back as an example, or fall on the floor, jump off a cliff, etc. It's not that hard, it's just devs and their higher ups being silly.

Silvrian

so then how can we voice our opinion besides forums? if we were to let the devs know we want it, and we will keep pushing for it... how can we make it happen as a community?

take anthem for example... or FF14 1.0

Im totally down to join together with the gaming community to get our ideas out there.

SFDB

I'd rather have jiggle physics.

Ryknos

Silvrian wrote: »

so then how can we voice our opinion besides forums? if we were to let the devs know we want it, and we will keep pushing for it... how can we make it happen as a community?

Im totally down to join together with the gaming community to get our ideas out there.

To really voice opinions and requests you really have to have groups and hordes of people spamming constantly on the dev tracker threads (button located above) for capes. Plain and simple just keep spamming the crap out of those threads and tell them you want capes.

Remember only moderators read GD threads for any game, but devs actually are forced to read dev tracker stuff.

Silvrian

Ryknos wrote: »

Silvrian wrote: »

so then how can we voice our opinion besides forums? if we were to let the devs know we want it, and we will keep pushing for it... how can we make it happen as a community?

Im totally down to join together with the gaming community to get our ideas out there.

To really voice opinions and requests you really have to have groups and hordes of people spamming constantly on the dev tracker threads (button located above) for capes. Plain and simple just keep spamming the crap out of those threads and tell them you want capes.

Remember only moderators read GD threads for any game, but devs actually are forced to read dev tracker stuff.

how can I get this on DEV tracker forum?

Ryknos

Silvrian wrote: »

Ryknos wrote: »

Silvrian wrote: »

so then how can we voice our opinion besides forums? if we were to let the devs know we want it, and we will keep pushing for it... how can we make it happen as a community?

Im totally down to join together with the gaming community to get our ideas out there.

To really voice opinions and requests you really have to have groups and hordes of people spamming constantly on the dev tracker threads (button located above) for capes. Plain and simple just keep spamming the crap out of those threads and tell them you want capes.

Remember only moderators read GD threads for any game, but devs actually are forced to read dev tracker stuff.

how can I get this on DEV tracker forum?

I don't know put the link for this thread on it and post it in their showcase threads?

Elsonso

Chaos2088 wrote: »

I would love capes but they took them out pre-launch. Due to frame rate me thinks.

DX9 had a bone limit that greatly restricted the ability to animate the characters. While they did have capes early in development, and apparently some of that is still hidden in the game, they cut capes to make other technical decisions possible or easier to implement, like weapon docking, first person weapon textures.

Turelus

Ryknos wrote: »

Silvrian wrote: »

so then how can we voice our opinion besides forums? if we were to let the devs know we want it, and we will keep pushing for it... how can we make it happen as a community?

Im totally down to join together with the gaming community to get our ideas out there.

To really voice opinions and requests you really have to have groups and hordes of people spamming constantly on the dev tracker threads (button located above) for capes. Plain and simple just keep spamming the crap out of those threads and tell them you want capes.

Remember only moderators read GD threads for any game, but devs actually are forced to read dev tracker stuff.

This isn't true as numerous ZOS staff are active reading the forums. They've stated it many times and if you ever check their profiles you can see they log in daily.