PvP, but what's the point?

Alucardo

I want to tell you guys what initially sparked my love for PvP in games, and why I spent 7 years of my life playing one in particular. To sum it up briefly, it was exciting, had purpose, and there was a good sense of progression. The MMO I'm talking about is extremely dated, and was developed by a company most of you probably have never heard of. Still, it had the best PvP I have ever witnessed, like ever.
It was an open world AvAvA type deal like Cyrodiil in ESO, but with so much more. Let me explain:

The basic idea was to pick a realm to invade. Once chosen, you'd steal their relics from each of their 3 keeps and take them to their main wall. This wall separates the "PvE" side from the PvP. Once the relics have been successfully placed your realms dragon would fly across the world and land right in front of the door. It would help obliterate enemies while you attempted to bash the door down, and look badass doing so. It had a few basic attacks like breathing fire, and flying up then crashing down.
Once you broke the door and got inside there were a couple of things you could do.

1. The main reason you're here is to collect the gems inside. They are scattered throughout the realm, so it could take a while, and you'd obviously have a lot of resistance.
2. For a large amount of "alliance points", and to complete a quest, you could attempt to slay their leaders (NPCs) who were guarded by battlemages and warriors, and enemy players.
3. Or just run around on your own and cause havoc

The gems described in option 1 are what I'd call the main "end game". Once you've invaded and collected the inside gems from both realms your realm may open a portal to the Golden Dragon. Everyone present gets to vote on a wish. The wish with the highest number of votes gets rewarded to that realm.

Alliance points were useful because you could buy special armor, that once you've collected all the pieces, you gained a special status giving you a few extra specialized skills for your particular class, and some passives like more health and mana. Nothing over the top, but still nice to have.

Because of the dragon wishes, it made PvP enticing. It made you want to keep doing it. It gave you purpose. You were never fighting and thinking "wait, why am I doing this again?". It was all for that dragon wish, because it wasn't just PvP that benefited, but the people doing PvE could also receive gains like bonus exp for a week if we wished for it.
This is the main point of my story. PvP in ESO feels like there is no real goal. You get emperor and then what? Who cares?
Adding crap like daedric artifacts and flags to towns does not give Cyrodiil purpose, and it sure as hell doesn't make it more enticing. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

Horker

The point is to be an Orc warrior (stamsorc) and show everyone how big your rock grannite pp is by destroying all the opposing players and earning the merciless title on your first ever battleground at level 10.

Alucardo

Horker wrote: »

The point is to be an Orc warrior (stamsorc) and show everyone how big your rock grannite pp is by destroying all the opposing players and earning the merciless title on your first ever battleground at level 10.

Damn orcs and their one-tracked minds ><

Horker

While wearing no gear btw

Gythral

The point is to die (repeatedly) until you learn how not to...

Alucardo

Gythral wrote: »

The point is to die (repeatedly) until you learn how not to...

Sure, but that's what I'm getting at. What exactly are you dying for?

ChunkyCat

The point is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

Slack

To me, Cyrodiil looks so uninspired. In my opinion, sieges should be something special one looks forward to. Here in ESO sieges happen on an hourly routine, with insane lag which sucks the rest of the fun out of it

Knootewoot

The point i do Cyrodill is because i enjoy large scale siege battles. I don't need to stinkin' rewards. I just want to defend or siege with lots of people on screen.

The first Battlefield also yielded to unlocks or rewards. People played for fun.
I was in a clan in BF1942 (great game imho) and some left because they had all unlocks "the completed the game". I played the game until they removed gamepspy servers. Fun is where it's at. As long as i have fun i stay. But if another large scale game comes along (with better performance) i will for sure check it out.

Hand_Bacon

@Alucardo

Great post!

I've thought along similar lines. My own experience came from the start of DaoC through its many years of life. I now dabble on a vibrant free shard.

While ESO borrows a lot of its pvp from DaoC, I've often thought ZoS missed one key feature of it. There when you captured "relics" and owned them your entire faction was awarded with pve bonuses. That way you had the capture of the relics tie directly to the success on the pve front. It'd be tough to integrate now since PvE is cross faction, but surely there is something more they can do.

Some quick random thoughts, probably garbage..dmg/heal etc buffs wouldn't work due to xfaction, but...
1. Give a further treasure hunter buff for x relics owned.
2. + Coin earned for x relics owned.
3. Faster research for x relics owned.
4. Mats/Money/Gear rewards, like rewards of the worthy for anyone belonging to that campaign/faction with x relics owned for x amount of time.

Alucardo

Hand_Bacon wrote: »

@Alucardo

Great post!

I've thought along similar lines. My own experience came from the start of DaoC through its many years of life. I now dabble on a vibrant free shard.

While ESO borrows a lot of its pvp from DaoC, I've often thought ZoS missed one key feature of it. There when you captured "relics" and owned them your entire faction was awarded with pve bonuses. That way you had the capture of the relics tie directly to the success on the pve front. It'd be tough to integrate now since PvE is cross faction, but surely there is something more they can do.

Some quick random thoughts, probably garbage..dmg/heal etc buffs wouldn't work due to xfaction, but...
1. Give a further treasure hunter buff for x relics owned.
2. + Coin earned for x relics owned.
3. Faster research for x relics owned.
4. Mats/Money/Gear rewards, like rewards of the worthy for anyone belonging to that campaign/faction with x relics owned for x amount of time.

Aye, the game I was talking about was actually heavily inspired by DaoC too. I like the fact that your work in Cyrodiil can benefit the entire alliance, even outside of PvP, and it just makes the entire thing feel more connected. Plus you're working towards something more tangible than mere bloodshed or some AP to save on bad RNG golden vendor items.
Instead of the golden dragon, it could be a daedric prince who grants the wish. The whole Sheogorath trying to spice things up could work into that.
And yes, those little rewards you noted are the kind of things I was talking about. Not anything huge, but just a nice little reward that everyone can make use of.

hakan

Because i enjoy it. When i do my stuff on battlefield, play like my character the way which i intended it to be, it very satisfying.

Nobody has to care. I care.

Alucardo

hakan wrote: »

Because i enjoy it. When i do my stuff on battlefield, play like my character the way which i intended it to be, it very satisfying.

Nobody has to care. I care.

I'm glad you enjoy it, and hope it stays that way. I think it's just because I've been doing it for so long that I'm starting to question its meaning. Apart from some capturable towns and new outposts, Cyrodiil hasn't really changed a lot. I'm getting bored.

Alienoutlaw

war is hard and takes its toll on all of us, its for us to seek meaning within the fight but simply just to fight until we die, then res then die, then res then die, then res then die, then res then die, then res then die, then res then die, then res then die.

Alucardo

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

war is hard and takes its toll on all of us, its for us to seek meaning within the fight but simply just to fight until we die, then res then die, then res then die, then res then die, then res then die, then res then die, then res then die, then res then die.

That was absolutely beautiful. Hit me right in the feels.

hakan

Alucardo wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

Because i enjoy it. When i do my stuff on battlefield, play like my character the way which i intended it to be, it very satisfying.

Nobody has to care. I care.

I'm glad you enjoy it, and hope it stays that way. I think it's just because I've been doing it for so long that I'm starting to question its meaning. Apart from some capturable towns and new outposts, Cyrodiil hasn't really changed a lot. I'm getting bored.

Well now i think about it, it is probably i have a scarce time playing due to me not having PC or console, playing thru my friends PC when he isnt using it ( still trying to get the money for it tho)

idk

I would have to ask OP, was the game you played for 7 years PvP based or a PvE game that has PvP like ESO? There is a very real difference between a game designed for PvP vs one that just happens to have PvP.

RDMyers65b14_ESO

The reason why I PVP doesn't ever end. I PVP because my PVP guild is like my family. It doesn't matter about the score, the map, or how often we wipe. We are all family.

Shantu

It's a game. So the point is to have fun. However, when you cross breed poor server performance with toxic, sociopathic behavior, it kinda sucks the fun out of if. I played PVP daily for several months. Even achieved the rank of Grade 2 Colonel. At times, it was awesome. Eventually, I found myself just getting pissed off too much. Then one day, after being ganked by a 5 skill one-shot, t-bagged, and whispered obscenities, enough was enough. Now the point is to go there and spend as little time as possible for the transmute crystals.

Beardimus

Alucardo wrote: »

I want to tell you guys what initially sparked my love for PvP in games, and why I spent 7 years of my life playing one in particular. To sum it up briefly, it was exciting, had purpose, and there was a good sense of progression. The MMO I'm talking about is extremely dated, and was developed by a company most of you probably have never heard of. Still, it had the best PvP I have ever witnessed, like ever.
It was an open world AvAvA type deal like Cyrodiil in ESO, but with so much more. Let me explain:

The basic idea was to pick a realm to invade. Once chosen, you'd steal their relics from each of their 3 keeps and take them to their main wall. This wall separates the "PvE" side from the PvP. Once the relics have been successfully placed your realms dragon would fly across the world and land right in front of the door. It would help obliterate enemies while you attempted to bash the door down, and look badass doing so. It had a few basic attacks like breathing fire, and flying up then crashing down.
Once you broke the door and got inside there were a couple of things you could do.

1. The main reason you're here is to collect the gems inside. They are scattered throughout the realm, so it could take a while, and you'd obviously have a lot of resistance.
2. For a large amount of "alliance points", and to complete a quest, you could attempt to slay their leaders (NPCs) who were guarded by battlemages and warriors, and enemy players.
3. Or just run around on your own and cause havoc

The gems described in option 1 are what I'd call the main "end game". Once you've invaded and collected the inside gems from both realms your realm may open a portal to the Golden Dragon. Everyone present gets to vote on a wish. The wish with the highest number of votes gets rewarded to that realm.

Alliance points were useful because you could buy special armor, that once you've collected all the pieces, you gained a special status giving you a few extra specialized skills for your particular class, and some passives like more health and mana. Nothing over the top, but still nice to have.

Because of the dragon wishes, it made PvP enticing. It made you want to keep doing it. It gave you purpose. You were never fighting and thinking "wait, why am I doing this again?". It was all for that dragon wish, because it wasn't just PvP that benefited, but the people doing PvE could also receive gains like bonus exp for a week if we wished for it.
This is the main point of my story. PvP in ESO feels like there is no real goal. You get emperor and then what? Who cares?
Adding crap like daedric artifacts and flags to towns does not give Cyrodiil purpose, and it sure as hell doesn't make it more enticing. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

The game has purpose, alliance victory, fighting both strategic and tactically to win the campaign. Sadly however most players just want to farm or boost AP or zerg from one fight to another spamming skills.

Any thread that talks about campaign loyalty generally gets poo pooed by players saying no ones cared for loyalty since 2014 and whats the point.

I agree the game could have more. I'm all for allaince goals & loyalty etc to mean more but whilst you have a ton of different motives for being in Cyrodiil it's the players that under mine the 'Point' for others.

Purely look at the faction lock debate. For the side that want it and play for their faction, trolling faction hoppers completely ruins the prior players 'point' very quickly.

That's the challenge I think, the players.

ThanatosXR

whats the point of life your gonna die anywayx

Alucardo

idk wrote: »

I would have to ask OP, was the game you played for 7 years PvP based or a PvE game that has PvP like ESO? There is a very real difference between a game designed for PvP vs one that just happens to have PvP.

Admittedly it was more PvP-centric, but I'm not asking for all the stuff the game offered. It was more to demonstrate how fun PvP was, and that the reason for fighting was for more than a silly title.
I find it hard to believe that a game built by a few random guys 12-13 years ago was technically, and mechanically more advanced than what Cyrodiil is in ESO today.

Alucardo

RDMyers65b14_ESO wrote: »

The reason why I PVP doesn't ever end. I PVP because my PVP guild is like my family. It doesn't matter about the score, the map, or how often we wipe. We are all family.

For sure, group play with some close friends can still be really enjoyable. But imagine how epic it was summoning dragons, storming the enemies walls, slaughtering their leaders, and returning home with their treasured gems to make a wish where your entire alliance benefits.
It's far more entertaining than running the same circle, taking the same keeps, for the same reward every time.

Alucardo

ThanatosXR wrote: »

whats the point of life your gonna die anywayx

Dark man. Really dark

Alucardo

Beardimus wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

I want to tell you guys what initially sparked my love for PvP in games, and why I spent 7 years of my life playing one in particular. To sum it up briefly, it was exciting, had purpose, and there was a good sense of progression. The MMO I'm talking about is extremely dated, and was developed by a company most of you probably have never heard of. Still, it had the best PvP I have ever witnessed, like ever.
It was an open world AvAvA type deal like Cyrodiil in ESO, but with so much more. Let me explain:

The basic idea was to pick a realm to invade. Once chosen, you'd steal their relics from each of their 3 keeps and take them to their main wall. This wall separates the "PvE" side from the PvP. Once the relics have been successfully placed your realms dragon would fly across the world and land right in front of the door. It would help obliterate enemies while you attempted to bash the door down, and look badass doing so. It had a few basic attacks like breathing fire, and flying up then crashing down.
Once you broke the door and got inside there were a couple of things you could do.

1. The main reason you're here is to collect the gems inside. They are scattered throughout the realm, so it could take a while, and you'd obviously have a lot of resistance.
2. For a large amount of "alliance points", and to complete a quest, you could attempt to slay their leaders (NPCs) who were guarded by battlemages and warriors, and enemy players.
3. Or just run around on your own and cause havoc

The gems described in option 1 are what I'd call the main "end game". Once you've invaded and collected the inside gems from both realms your realm may open a portal to the Golden Dragon. Everyone present gets to vote on a wish. The wish with the highest number of votes gets rewarded to that realm.

Alliance points were useful because you could buy special armor, that once you've collected all the pieces, you gained a special status giving you a few extra specialized skills for your particular class, and some passives like more health and mana. Nothing over the top, but still nice to have.

Because of the dragon wishes, it made PvP enticing. It made you want to keep doing it. It gave you purpose. You were never fighting and thinking "wait, why am I doing this again?". It was all for that dragon wish, because it wasn't just PvP that benefited, but the people doing PvE could also receive gains like bonus exp for a week if we wished for it.
This is the main point of my story. PvP in ESO feels like there is no real goal. You get emperor and then what? Who cares?
Adding crap like daedric artifacts and flags to towns does not give Cyrodiil purpose, and it sure as hell doesn't make it more enticing. I hope you can see where I'm coming from.

The game has purpose, alliance victory, fighting both strategic and tactically to win the campaign. Sadly however most players just want to farm or boost AP or zerg from one fight to another spamming skills.

Any thread that talks about campaign loyalty generally gets poo pooed by players saying no ones cared for loyalty since 2014 and whats the point.

I agree the game could have more. I'm all for allaince goals & loyalty etc to mean more but whilst you have a ton of different motives for being in Cyrodiil it's the players that under mine the 'Point' for others.

Purely look at the faction lock debate. For the side that want it and play for their faction, trolling faction hoppers completely ruins the prior players 'point' very quickly.

That's the challenge I think, the players.

I think that's what I missed most. When you created an account, you could only play on that one realm - you could never switch. There was such thing as loyalty, and they all worked together for the same goal, because you'd get nothing if you didn't invade. The entire thing had purpose. None of this resource flipping crap and farming people in towers for some cheap AP. Sure that can be fun for a while, but it wears off.

Savos_Saren

While that's a fantastic idea, OP, it doesn't necessarily apply to ESO's world. In PVE- all the overworld, trial, dungeon, and arena content is mixed with members of all three alliances. So- if AD were to win the campaign and "make a wish" (I'm guessing it would add a buff) that effected only AD people in PVE- then we'd have trial groups running with only about 1/3 of their members receiving that buff.

I like that idea, though. I wish there was a way to implement it. Then, maybe, PVP and PVE players would actually stop squabbling.

Alucardo

Savos_Saren wrote: »

While that's a fantastic idea, OP, it doesn't necessarily apply to ESO's world. In PVE- all the overworld, trial, dungeon, and arena content is mixed with members of all three alliances. So- if AD were to win the campaign and "make a wish" (I'm guessing it would add a buff) that effected only AD people in PVE- then we'd have trial groups running with only about 1/3 of their members receiving that buff.

I like that idea, though. I wish there was a way to implement it. Then, maybe, PVP and PVE players would actually stop squabbling.

True that. I really don't think most of it would work in ESO. I can't imagine people grinding in Alik'r would be too happy when enemy players run rampant and kill them all, then move onto Bangkorai and kill all the NPCs, and so on. You could essentially do that in the game I was talking about... I remember people complaining because all the quest givers were dead lmao
There doesn't even need to be alliance rewards. Just looking for something, anything, to spice up Cyrodiil and give me a reason to keep going back. I still love PvP here, but it's just getting a little stale.

Sheezabeast

Sometimes the point is to just stand around in empty keeps, semi-afk and chat with your friends while watching the hilarity of zone chat unfold.

Daedric_NB_187

So what game are you talking about?

Alucardo

Sheezabeast wrote: »

Sometimes the point is to just stand around in empty keeps, semi-afk and chat with your friends while watching the hilarity of zone chat unfold.

You know, I used to love that. But nowadays it's all "LFG" or silence. Hell, yesterday they were talking about Brexit in zone chat. That's how boring Cyrodiil has become.

Alucardo

Daedric_NB_187 wrote: »

So what game are you talking about?

I don't really like mentioning other games on game forums - seems a bit disrespectful. But I don't mind talking about them to get some examples across like I did in the OP.