Blighted Blastbones and Ruinous Scythe

RighteousBacon

The scary part is that the spammable that prevents healing won’t have a cool down on the effect. Can it stack? Could a group of 3-4 necros spam this on a player and make their healing negligible?

Ariades_swe

RighteousBacon wrote: »

The scary part is that the spammable that prevents healing won’t have a cool down on the effect. Can it stack? Could a group of 3-4 necros spam this on a player and make their healing negligible?

It's an aoe so a few necros would be really nasty.

DocFrost72

I'm much less worried about blastbones. It should probably have the major defile become minor, but that may cause issues as iirc disease damage has a chance anyway to proc major defile. With 2.5 second wait time and travel time, it seems a lot weaker than lethal arrow. I wonder if you back up past 28 meters if the summon fails?

The real issue of these two abilities comes from Ruinous Scythe. I don't know if the effect stacks (it freaking shouldn't), and I'd rather they remove the negated healing and let it be a jabs-alike move. Maybe stam heals the user more, giving them direct heal and leaving magicka the dot?

Toc de Malsvi

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Ariades_swe wrote: »

Blighted Blastbones: Converts into a stamina ability and deals disease damage. Reduces healing received on enemies hit (applies major defile for 5 seconds). (Cost: 2295 stamina)

Ruinous Scythe: Converts to a stamina ability and prevents healing done to your target (applies X healing absorption for 2 seconds. Note that this is NOT a major or minor debuff). (Cost: 2524 stamina)

So stamnecros will get a spammable 28 meters ranged dd with major defile attached to it that they can use together with a spammable melee dd that absorbs healing.

Just lol.

Blighted Blastbones isn't spammable. It has a 2.5sec summoning time and run time chasing the target. Youtubers stated you couldn't cast another while one was up.

I mean I think they are OP cause of the overall toolkit but thats not a spammable.

Base morph:

Summon a flaming skeleton from the ground after 2.5 seconds. The skeleton runs after the target and explodes when it gets close to them, dealing [x] flame damage to all enemies nearby. Creates a corpse upon death.

https://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Gravelord+Skills
Wiki states that it will have 6 meter radius which means it will be AOE. This means it will be un-dodgable and un-blockable.

Seems tottaly not broken at all...

Now, the big question is: How this skeleton will behave if you use invisibility potion / cloak ? Will it still chase after you ?

Right, please learn to critically think. I made no argument as to it being OP or not, I stated it was not a spammable which it is not. I even stated I think their overall toolkit is OP.

Further, being AOE does not mean unblockable, and doesn't exactly mean undodgeable. As others have posted about things like Shalks in the past, not being able to dodge roll through the effect, does not mean you cannot necessarily dodge roll out of the effect before it goes off.

Toc de Malsvi

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I'm much less worried about blastbones. It should probably have the major defile become minor, but that may cause issues as iirc disease damage has a chance anyway to proc major defile. With 2.5 second wait time and travel time, it seems a lot weaker than lethal arrow. I wonder if you back up past 28 meters if the summon fails?

The real issue of these two abilities comes from Ruinous Scythe. I don't know if the effect stacks (it freaking shouldn't), and I'd rather they remove the negated healing and let it be a jabs-alike move. Maybe stam heals the user more, giving them direct heal and leaving magicka the dot?

Well because of the instant cast the delay is probably more beneficial to line up with ult burst. But again the danger isn't in this skill as a spammable. It is in getting Major Defile from a ranged delayed burst AOE that will be able to lined up with other skills and ults.

Damage wise the Necro looks stupid OP, lots of utility as well. However it does appear to miss Major Brut/Sorc, and looks like it has rather poor mobility. Won't be able to tell anything really until we can fight with/against them on other classes. That isn't to say that some things couldn't be tuned down before hand.

DocFrost72

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

I'm much less worried about blastbones. It should probably have the major defile become minor, but that may cause issues as iirc disease damage has a chance anyway to proc major defile. With 2.5 second wait time and travel time, it seems a lot weaker than lethal arrow. I wonder if you back up past 28 meters if the summon fails?

The real issue of these two abilities comes from Ruinous Scythe. I don't know if the effect stacks (it freaking shouldn't), and I'd rather they remove the negated healing and let it be a jabs-alike move. Maybe stam heals the user more, giving them direct heal and leaving magicka the dot?

Well because of the instant cast the delay is probably more beneficial to line up with ult burst. But again the danger isn't in this skill as a spammable. It is in getting Major Defile from a ranged delayed burst AOE that will be able to lined up with other skills and ults.

Damage wise the Necro looks stupid OP, lots of utility as well. However it does appear to miss Major Brut/Sorc, and looks like it has rather poor mobility. Won't be able to tell anything really until we can fight with/against them on other classes. That isn't to say that some things couldn't be tuned down before hand.

I agree that the issue is the defile, and that could use a toning down. I don't think you can just make it minor defile though, because then you run the risk of getting both minor and major from one move. The range and the delayed burst would be okay IF it is telegraphed. Warden shalks and Sorceror curse are prime examples of giving people tools to recognize "this combo is about to whack me if I don't do something quick."

As for testing, we should definitely see where this leads. I am extra salty Necro doesn't get brutality and sorcery, but we should do some serious testing.

KhajiitFelix

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Crazy thing these aren’t even the op skills when you compare it to the rest of the skills. This class is the only class that every skill is good. Hopefully they update the other classes.

Caught you trolling

TheBonesXXX

Until you test it, this is a Nerf thread.

Minno

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Until you test it, this is a Nerf thread.

And a "zos, stop stealing Templar idea/skill" thread lol

DoonerSeraph

Minno wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Until you test it, this is a Nerf thread.

And a "zos, stop stealing Templar idea/skill" thread lol

Argonian warden "Has-Major-Mending" is laughing his tail off.

Kadoin

Good thing I already decided to quit PvP next "chapter" and play less. Can't wait for the forum entertainment.

Jimmy_The_Fixer

A healing absorb is functionally the same as oblivion damage, since it is “damage” that bypasses resistances and battle spirit.

There’s almost no way to balance an on-demand heal-absorb on a spammable class skill, scythe makes me nervous.

usmcjdking

Thogard wrote: »

That cast time actually makes it stronger because you can line up burst more easily...


Immov pot then Skeletal archer and then Blighted + ruinous + master DW rending + the major vulnerability ult (stun and then blighted hits for defile) + some spin to win.... zero counterplay.

I’d bet the skeletal archer pet will ignore hiding too. Poor nightblades are not gonna have a good time. I’d bet necro counters both warden (by blocking healing) and nightblade.

It already counters Stamplar by existing.

exeeter702

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

A healing absorb is functionally the same as oblivion damage, since it is “damage” that bypasses resistances and battle spirit.

There’s almost no way to balance an on-demand heal-absorb on a spammable class skill, scythe makes me nervous.

So far, the tooltip damage on the stam scythe is particularly low for its price catagory. It also exists in the tank tree. This skill is going to be an issue on tanky utilty builds in small scale that can keep it up. It will help keep the tank alive via its health return mechanic. But seriously doubt this scythe is going to be an explosive option for damage oriented stamina necros in more intimate scenarios. Tanky necros will tank a small group and cleave with this while others drop the damage.

Iskiab

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

The good thing is no one will know how to play them then say they’re trash until someone puts out a meta build like with Warden which didn’t get popular until clockwork city, well really whenever that XP event was.

Is that the history? So people said they were trash until someone tried it? That pretty hilarious.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

CyrusArya wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

That cast time actually makes it stronger because you can line up burst more easily...


Immov pot then Skeletal archer and then Blighted + ruinous + master DW rending + the major vulnerability ult (stun and then blighted hits for defile) + some spin to win.... zero counterplay.

I’d bet the skeletal archer pet will ignore hiding too. Poor nightblades are not gonna have a good time. I’d bet necro counters both warden (by blocking healing) and nightblade.

No class is getting ripped off or countered harder than Templar, Stamplar in particular. They literally took the core of the defensive foundation for the class (purge and breath of life), made it better, and put it on Necromancer. They gave Necromancer a great crit passive. Then they sprinkled on 10% extra dot damage and 10% less dot damage taken, stifling Jabs. Finally they sprinkled on major defile and heal negate for good measure.

Just imagine the Stamplar vs Stam Necro head to head for a second. Stamplar does 10% less dot and Jabs damage, while taking more dot damage and getting defiled+heal negated on it’s already mediocre healing, while having to purge with the expensive ritual. Meanwhile the Necromancer reduces the Templar’s damage, while spamming a better spammable, throwing out better debuffs, and going toe to toe on the purges....except the Necromancer’s purge instead of being expensive is actually restoring a hefty chunk of resource.

Atrocious.

Welcome to every chapter release thus far XD wardens took away templar major mending. Now necro improves on take their cleanse and repentance and res speed.

wheem_ESO

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

That cast time actually makes it stronger because you can line up burst more easily...


Immov pot then Skeletal archer and then Blighted + ruinous + master DW rending + the major vulnerability ult (stun and then blighted hits for defile) + some spin to win.... zero counterplay.

I’d bet the skeletal archer pet will ignore hiding too. Poor nightblades are not gonna have a good time. I’d bet necro counters both warden (by blocking healing) and nightblade.

No class is getting ripped off or countered harder than Templar, Stamplar in particular. They literally took the core of the defensive foundation for the class (purge and breath of life), made it better, and put it on Necromancer. They gave Necromancer a great crit passive. Then they sprinkled on 10% extra dot damage and 10% less dot damage taken, stifling Jabs. Finally they sprinkled on major defile and heal negate for good measure.

Just imagine the Stamplar vs Stam Necro head to head for a second. Stamplar does 10% less dot and Jabs damage, while taking more dot damage and getting defiled+heal negated on it’s already mediocre healing, while having to purge with the expensive ritual. Meanwhile the Necromancer reduces the Templar’s damage, while spamming a better spammable, throwing out better debuffs, and going toe to toe on the purges....except the Necromancer’s purge instead of being expensive is actually restoring a hefty chunk of resource.

Atrocious.

Welcome to every chapter release thus far XD wardens took away templar major mending. Now necro improves on take their cleanse and repentance and res speed.

According to the livestreams from the Boston event on the 29th and 30th, as well as what Class Rep Joy_Division said on page 1 of this thread, the Necromancer cleanse will cost health to cast (2k was the current number given, which is obviously subject to change). If it goes live in that state, I think it'll be fairly useless in PvP - no one is going to want to lose 2k HP while under pressure just to clear 3 debuffs that are going to be instantly reapplied. Especially since some of those reapplications won't even cost resources or global cooldowns. The ability might still get used for resource sustain in some situations if things don't change, but it will most certainly not be competition for Extended Ritual as a cleanse (especially since there's no synergy associated).

There's another cleanse option for Necromancers with the Renewing Undeath morph of Life Amid Death, but that will only trigger if there's an available corpse. I'm also not sure if the spell (which is an AOE) has to be cast on top of the corpse that gets consumed, or if it can trigger from one that's within a certain range of its radius. If it's the former, then this ability will also not really compete with Extended Ritual for Templars (even if it's the latter option, I'd still consider the Templar cleanse to be overall superior in most cases, especially with its amazing synergy).

Based on what information we have so far, the things that "scare" me for balance are primarily the rezz ultimate, and the anti-healing abilities given to Stamina Necromancer builds. Personally, I think AOE Major Defile needs to go the way of the Dodo...and I say that as someone that has access to it with Corrupting Pollen. But to have that defile tacked onto an AOE burst ability, *and* coupled with a spammable that applies a frontal-AOE heal absorb? Ouch...

Edit:
The Major Vulnerability on the Flesh Atronach Ultimate is also probably going to be over the top, especially for organized groups that Dawnbreaker bomb immediately after one of them drops it.

Savos_Saren

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO @wheem_ESO

I honestly thing that insta-rez is going to bite some people in the ass. It instantly rezzes you... whether you're ready or not. So regardless if oils are being poured onto you or you're surrounded by the enemy- you're going pop up.

Joy_Division

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO @wheem_ESO

I honestly thing that insta-rez is going to bite some people in the ass. It instantly rezzes you... whether you're ready or not. So regardless if oils are being poured onto you or you're surrounded by the enemy- you're going pop up.

Maybe the necro rex ulti wont be too bad

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO @wheem_ESO

I honestly thing that insta-rez is going to bite some people in the ass. It instantly rezzes you... whether you're ready or not. So regardless if oils are being poured onto you or you're surrounded by the enemy- you're going pop up.

@Savos_Saren
It won't go live with instant res and if it does it will make you immune to dmg for some time e.g. ghost form or something similar like phoenix

Iskiab

I hope the devs err on the side of making necro OP. Too many tear threads so most things that make it to live end up being useless.

Necros should have an impact when they’re released, let’s shake up the status quo, it’ll make the game more interesting. Plus according to the forums every class has been ‘gutted’ since release. Basicly half of opinion posts should be taken with a grain of salt.

Savos_Saren

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

From the ESO live (on Saturday)- they confirmed it's an instant rez. No "ghost" time. I think it might be a good thing, though. You'll have to be more strategic about where/when you rez your comrades.

@Joy_Division
Definitely.

I can already tell, though, we're going to have some trolls that insta rez people under oils for *** and giggles.

Waffennacht

The insta Rez seems like a god send for Pugging harder content (I'm thinking dlc vets etc)

I haven't delved deeply enough into the abilities to make a judgement call on their effectiveness.

The thing is, outside of being really cool - this there any reason to drop a Health tank build in PvP for a necromancer? That I'm not entirely sure of at all

CatchMeTrolling

You

Iskiab wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

The good thing is no one will know how to play them then say they’re trash until someone puts out a meta build like with Warden which didn’t get popular until clockwork city, well really whenever that XP event was.

Is that the history? So people said they were trash until someone tried it? That pretty hilarious.

Pretty much everyone tried them when they first came out and dropped them just as quick. They started gaining momentum when bg players was running around with the one shot combo. Then Kodi started playing one and at some point there was an xp event which created the birth of many new stam wardens.

wheem_ESO

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO @wheem_ESO

I honestly thing that insta-rez is going to bite some people in the ass. It instantly rezzes you... whether you're ready or not. So regardless if oils are being poured onto you or you're surrounded by the enemy- you're going pop up.

I'm thinking about it more in the context of Battlegrounds and small groups in Cyrodiil. It wouldn't really surprise me if the instant rezzing thing gets tweaked before going live, both to prevent being "trolled" by teammates, and because it'll likely be somewhat OP in other scenarios.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You

Iskiab wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

The good thing is no one will know how to play them then say they’re trash until someone puts out a meta build like with Warden which didn’t get popular until clockwork city, well really whenever that XP event was.

Is that the history? So people said they were trash until someone tried it? That pretty hilarious.

Pretty much everyone tried them when they first came out and dropped them just as quick. They started gaining momentum when bg players was running around with the one shot combo. Then Kodi started playing one and at some point there was an xp event which created the birth of many new stam wardens.

I dunno, I saw a pretty good number of Stamina Wardens fairly early on, but Magicka was really rare. It's really only been since Murkmire that I've seen a decent number of Magicka Wardens in the high MMR BGs on PC-NA.

Strider__Roshin

The defile needs to be removed as well as the healing absorption. It's crazy to think that ZOS thought this was acceptable.

CatchMeTrolling

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Savos_Saren wrote: »

@Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO @wheem_ESO

I honestly thing that insta-rez is going to bite some people in the ass. It instantly rezzes you... whether you're ready or not. So regardless if oils are being poured onto you or you're surrounded by the enemy- you're going pop up.

I'm thinking about it more in the context of Battlegrounds and small groups in Cyrodiil. It wouldn't really surprise me if the instant rezzing thing gets tweaked before going live, both to prevent being "trolled" by teammates, and because it'll likely be somewhat OP in other scenarios.

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

You

Iskiab wrote: »

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

The good thing is no one will know how to play them then say they’re trash until someone puts out a meta build like with Warden which didn’t get popular until clockwork city, well really whenever that XP event was.

Is that the history? So people said they were trash until someone tried it? That pretty hilarious.

Pretty much everyone tried them when they first came out and dropped them just as quick. They started gaining momentum when bg players was running around with the one shot combo. Then Kodi started playing one and at some point there was an xp event which created the birth of many new stam wardens.

I dunno, I saw a pretty good number of Stamina Wardens fairly early on, but Magicka was really rare. It's really only been since Murkmire that I've seen a decent number of Magicka Wardens in the high MMR BGs on PC-NA.

Don’t know how because even on these very forums people said the class was dead and no one played them. It was one of the reason people justified the one shot combo wardens had , if I recall @Thogard had a thread on it. Stam wardens became a thing after the xp event, I just can’t remember which one was that. Plus, I already said they started gaining momentum because of BG players which was around clockwork city but in open world the class was a rarity.

dazee

CatchMeTrolling wrote: »

Crazy thing these aren’t even the op skills when you compare it to the rest of the skills. This class is the only class that every skill is good. Hopefully they update the other classes.

That'd be the way to go instead of nerfing everything to suck and leave only a couple viable build options per class.

TheBonesXXX

Minno wrote: »

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Until you test it, this is a Nerf thread.

And a "zos, stop stealing Templar idea/skill" thread lol

This thread needs more bell curves and z scores.

TheBonesXXX

exeeter702 wrote: »

Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »

A healing absorb is functionally the same as oblivion damage, since it is “damage” that bypasses resistances and battle spirit.

There’s almost no way to balance an on-demand heal-absorb on a spammable class skill, scythe makes me nervous.

So far, the tooltip damage on the stam scythe is particularly low for its price catagory. It also exists in the tank tree. This skill is going to be an issue on tanky utilty builds in small scale that can keep it up. It will help keep the tank alive via its health return mechanic. But seriously doubt this scythe is going to be an explosive option for damage oriented stamina necros in more intimate scenarios. Tanky necros will tank a small group and cleave with this while others drop the damage.

I think the idea is that scythe is sustain till the skull build up then skull + suicide Skelly = kablooey