Necromancer vs. Templar vs. Sorc (and other things)

tinythinker

So I had a few seconds to glance over the Necro skill line earlier and the short version is that it reminded me a lot of Templar with some Sorcerer mixed in and touch of DK. I don't have the time to go over a point by point comparison and analysis, so if someone else does and wishes to please do. I was reminded of ideas for fixing and improving Templars from the past five years, like giving them a mass resurrection spell. It's very likely devs came up with similar ideas on their own, but it does make me wonder if Templar and other classes are in line for big reworks. The damage skill line for Necros have a stamina morph for most abilities, for example, so is that going to be a thing for other classes? Plus there seems to be a bit of a builder spender vibe if I'm reading things correctly.

As to few of the points of similarity (and of course there are many differences!) that immediately jumped out at me...

Death Scythe <--> Puncturing Sweeps (morph of Puncturing Srikes)

Bitter Harvest <--> vaguely similar to Repentance (morph of Restoring Aura)

Expunge <--> Cleansing Ritual

Restoring Tether and its Braided Tether morph <--> Restoring Aura and its Repentance Morph

And...

Summoner's Armor <--> Bound Armor

Frozen Colossus <--> Summon Storm Atronach

Blast Bones <--> older version of Volatile Familiar

Again, this was just "at a glance". And I'm not suggesting a lack of originality. But what do these similar abilities mean for their original counterparts? Updates or changes?

And the organization of the skill lines with the whole "damage skill line" giving stamina morphs for four out of five abilities - a preview for other classes?

Plus other experiments or differences I don't have time to properly examine or list right now?

What do you think?

Tasear

There's defiantly similarities and I felt the same way at first too, but a closer look it does look like some unique gameplay options. I think the familiarity will help sell the class and make it enjoyable, but it up to public to make sure counterparts get justice with balance.

My complain is why in world does sorc have worst sustain skill in regards to flow of combat usage? Beta 2.0 ... doesn't look balanced to dark exchange.

Jhalin

They look very different, and from the play test videos they play very different too

For one thing, I can’t see any significant resemblance to Storm Atro. Both morphs of the Flesh atro, are very short duration, amping morphs with group utility via Major Vulnerability. Storm atro is long lasting pet and provides a solo-buff to the one who uses the synergy. The tethers are all actual tethers, dealing damage or healing in that line similar to the Zaan boss mechanic. The armor i’ll give you because there’s only so many ways to dress up resistance buffs, but the Beckoning armor is very interesting and hasn’t had the concept used before.

I highly doubt a few insignificant similarities means a huge class redesign in on the way, as much as I wish NB was getting viable tanking support (bring back our dodge change please I beg, let us be mitigation/avoidance tanks)

Lughlongarm

I don't see much resemblance, as it is right now, it seems lke necro is probably the the least mobile class in the game while Sorc is the most mobile. "Necro need a zone of control" for offence while templar needs it only for defense.
Necro self purge heal is a risk reward based.

I think it will feel very different compared to the classes you mentioned.

Stellarvorous

Is anyone else slightly worried about the lack of castable damage buffs? I didn't see any note of major brutality minor berserk even major sorcery ect ect not to mention the passives.

Granted I understand its still getting designed and all the kinks ironed out but phew I sure hope I wont be digging in the guild lines to scrounge up some buffs lol

Cinbri

What I can see judging from tooltips of skills of other testers from reddit megathread is disturbing because:
Death Scythe > Puncturing Sweeps
Bitter Harvest > vaguely similar to Repentance
Expunge > Cleansing Ritual
Restoring Tether and its Braided Tether morph > Restoring Aura and its Repentance Morph
Frozen Colossus >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Storm Atronach
Blast Bones > Volatile Familiar

Minno

Cinbri wrote: »

What I can see judging from tooltips of skills of other testers from reddit megathread is disturbing because:
Death Scythe > Puncturing Sweeps
Bitter Harvest > vaguely similar to Repentance
Expunge > Cleansing Ritual
Restoring Tether and its Braided Tether morph > Restoring Aura and its Repentance Morph
Frozen Colossus >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Storm Atronach
Blast Bones > Volatile Familiar

Ive been meme-ing all over the place that templar will be nerfed in the new chapter. I am taking bets, templar will be losing minor mending lol.

Bc_bmx

For the ultimate that does resurrection, I think they should remove the player cap (or max out at 11), make it a "per person resurrected" cost, +10 ish soul gems per player resurrected. Would be an interesting twist to an ultimate.

JinMori

Bc_bmx wrote: »

For the ultimate that does resurrection, I think they should remove the player cap (or max out at 11), make it a "per person resurrected" cost, +10 ish soul gems per player resurrected. Would be an interesting twist to an ultimate.

So you could just ress your zerg mates indefinitely, how about no.

I mean, did you seriously think that no cap on players on a ulti that literally resses players would be a good idea??

This is all kinds of op, both in pvp and pve, with something like this, you could do major blunders everywhere and it wouldn't even matter.

You could just stack soul gems like a madman, and ress so many people.

Neloth

Tasear wrote: »

My complain is why in world does sorc have worst sustain skill in regards to flow of combat usage? Beta 2.0 ... doesn't look balanced to dark exchange.

Uh, those PvEers, always needing additional sustain to kill poor NPCs...

Dark deal is the best sustain tool for PvP among all classes, can you please leave it be and stop asking about unnecessary changes? Some skills work better in PvP, some in PvE. We don't ask for liquid lightening to be changed into an instant burst skill, right? Or anything else more useful against someone, who can move 2 meters away?

If you can't sustain your DPS-rotation - play petsorc, it doesn't require sustain at all. If you can't sustain your heals - go improve your mag regen like we do in PvP, or find some time to dark deal a bit.

tinythinker

Tasear wrote: »

There's defiantly similarities and I felt the same way at first too, but a closer look it does look like some unique gameplay options. I think the familiarity will help sell the class and make it enjoyable, but it up to public to make sure counterparts get justice with balance.

My complain is why in world does sorc have worst sustain skill in regards to flow of combat usage? Beta 2.0 ... doesn't look balanced to dark exchange.

Jhalin wrote: »

They look very different, and from the play test videos they play very different too

For one thing, I can’t see any significant resemblance to Storm Atro. Both morphs of the Flesh atro, are very short duration, amping morphs with group utility via Major Vulnerability. Storm atro is long lasting pet and provides a solo-buff to the one who uses the synergy. The tethers are all actual tethers, dealing damage or healing in that line similar to the Zaan boss mechanic. The armor i’ll give you because there’s only so many ways to dress up resistance buffs, but the Beckoning armor is very interesting and hasn’t had the concept used before.

I highly doubt a few insignificant similarities means a huge class redesign in on the way, as much as I wish NB was getting viable tanking support (bring back our dodge change please I beg, let us be mitigation/avoidance tanks)

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I don't see much resemblance, as it is right now, it seems lke necro is probably the the least mobile class in the game while Sorc is the most mobile. "Necro need a zone of control" for offence while templar needs it only for defense.
Necro self purge heal is a risk reward based.

I think it will feel very different compared to the classes you mentioned.

As mentioned I had time to just quickly glance, but I tend to consider the following:

• class fantasy/animation/fun feel factor
• effect/function/tuning

I agree some may only be superficially similar by appearance or written description, but not all. And any similarity or all similarity also speaks to the development process and how the devs might be looking at creating or changing classes/class skill lines going forward. They had mentioned a new approach and I'm looking for evidence of what that might entail with the recent racial passive changes and the new class. The increase is stamina morphs is a particularly noticeable example.

I appreciate the closer analysis and discernment, to be clear, as I didn't have the time for anything other than a superficial first impression. The things that caught my eye do strongly remind me of other classes, but I never said it was a clone of any of them. Even after learning more, it sounds like Necro has some new ideas hiding inside it that also might have implications for the future. Still got my eye on being able to make corpses so that even if bodies aren't available spells requiring them will still work (that slight builder-spender vibe and intra-class ability synergy - want to see more of that all around!).

Thank you for sharing your perspectives, and thanks for taking time to read and reply to my hastily written ponderings.

tinythinker

Cinbri wrote: »

What I can see judging from tooltips of skills of other testers from reddit megathread is disturbing because:
Death Scythe > Puncturing Sweeps
Bitter Harvest > vaguely similar to Repentance
Expunge > Cleansing Ritual
Restoring Tether and its Braided Tether morph > Restoring Aura and its Repentance Morph
Frozen Colossus >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Storm Atronach
Blast Bones > Volatile Familiar

Minno wrote: »

Cinbri wrote: »

What I can see judging from tooltips of skills of other testers from reddit megathread is disturbing because:
Death Scythe > Puncturing Sweeps
Bitter Harvest > vaguely similar to Repentance
Expunge > Cleansing Ritual
Restoring Tether and its Braided Tether morph > Restoring Aura and its Repentance Morph
Frozen Colossus >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Storm Atronach
Blast Bones > Volatile Familiar

Ive been meme-ing all over the place that templar will be nerfed in the new chapter. I am taking bets, templar will be losing minor mending lol.

Morgul667

Its not even here yet

tinythinker

Morgul667 wrote: »

Its not even here yet

And...?

No one in the thread has complained about how Necro looks or called for it to be nerfed.

It's still interesting to look at what we've learned and speculate about what that might mean for the future of class design/balance and hints about which direction the new combat approach might be going.

Floliroy

Even if there is some similar skills, i'm really happy that they introduce new "mechanics":
-Major Vulnerability
-Taking your own Synergie (not a bug )
-Playing with Dead Corpse
-Resurecting peoples with a Skill (yes ultimate)

tinythinker

Floliroy wrote: »

Even if there is some similar skills, i'm really happy that they introduce new "mechanics":
-Major Vulnerability
-Taking your own Synergie (not a bug )
-Playing with Dead Corpse
-Resurecting peoples with a Skill (yes ultimate)

Yeah, which makes me wonder what future classes or class revamps might produce...