Should Blood Magic be reworked to help with Sorc Sustain

Illuvatarr

I think a viable argument can be made to either increase the magicka regen on capacitor or to provide sorcerers with another source of sustain.

The class at its core has been broken by ZOS and they have provided bandaid remedies that overpowers the class for a patch which they soon nerf and return the class back to an even worse shape than before. I fully expect ZOS to rebalance pets after this last patch, especially two pet spec, as it is too strong.

The huge/myopic nerfs to sorcerer offense with making everything dodgeable has rendered the need for much additional sustain. The class functions by being able to deliver damage quickly and that has been nullified by these changes that allows classes that are easier to play, have almost as much or more (in the case of stamina wardens and nightblades) burst damage and can dodge every sorcerer attack besides curse. Every other attack, or more, in CP pvp is dodged or misses. It seems the other classes have near infinte sustain, especially stamina specs, and even with bright throat and 2 magicka regeneration glyphs (have tried cost reduction as well) the long fights seem to favor any other class. Other classes can use two dps sets and still out sustain a sorcerer.

Sorcerers are forced to use necro/lich or necro/bright throat to be viable. This combined with what I would call punitive ability dispersion forcing sorcerers to spec a certain way (no other class has the same bar space issues) so sorcerers cannot reasonably slot abilities like bound aegis (to add more magicka) to be viable.

Sorcerers should sustain as well as the other classes. No more. No less. That is currently not the case and if the intention is to leave sorcerer offense so vulnerable to dodge roll and cloak (I can burn through an entire magicka bar trying to hit a dodge roll spamming stam toon, especially nightblades since they can just reset their dodge roll by cloaking) then the sustain needs to balanced around that.

Alucardo

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

My vote wasn't actually because I think sorc sustain is fine, but no because you're nerfing tanks. Sorc tanking is already meh as it is, and removing their max health based heal would only hurt them more.

Browiseth

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

Alucardo wrote: »

My vote wasn't actually because I think sorc sustain is fine, but no because you're nerfing tanks. Sorc tanking is already meh as it is, and removing their max health based heal would only hurt them more.

"Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well"

also, double post OP lol

idk

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

Doesn't Capacitor already help with Sorc sustain? One passive seems to be enough.

Maybe OP can provide some justification for a second sustain passive taking into account the big picture including how many sustain passives other classes have. I want it or I like the sustain passive for other classes better are not sufficient since Zos clearly designed each to be different on purpose.

Edit: also, Zos would move on from this thread fast without good constructive feedback. With all the threads that pop up each day they have to make judgement calls on which ones are worthy to be read and that is probably heavily based on the OP.

Illuvatarr

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

Edit: Moved comment to original post

Ragnaroek93

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

I'm currently running ~2,6k stamrec on my Nb, that's more than I have on sorc (have to admit that I'm using Ele Drain tho), I don't think that sorc needs sustain buffs tbh...

idk

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

Glad OP decided to provide some reasoning for why they created this post per my suggestion.

1. OP mentions 'band-aid" remedies but that is all this suggestion is. It does not really do anything to really fix Sorcs. OP also fails to suggest why the Sorc should gain more sustain passives than other classes have.

2, For what content are Sorcs having to use Lich or Bright Throat for sustain? If PvE you are probably running with a bad group or you have a bad rotation. Since you are talking pet build (only reason to use Necro) that is the most sustain friendly build in game. It if talking PvP, that is all about sustain and most players run high sustain in PvP unless they are going for a fast gank build.

In PvE most dps run a trial set for major slayer and because there are a few good magicka sets that drop in trials. I do not see people running Lich or Bright Throat in trials.

So in the end, I do not see anything that would change my mind. There is certainly no justification provided for more Sorcs to have more sustain passives than any other class.

cpuScientist

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

So in PvE the main pain point for sorc is sustain. As dark deal is a bad skill for pve just terrible and not usable. Every class has a sustain skill and a passive usually. DK has 2 sustain passives being the only class without mag sustaining skill in class. Currently blood magic provides a paltry unreliable heal turning this into a sustain passive would greatly help the class.

The class has the worst sustain and for a long while has had near bottom DPS only brought along for conduit synergy. They have had their dps raised this patch with the pet buffs which will most likely be nerfed again. But the pain point remains sorc sustain is the worst in game.

Going empty on a 3 mil pulling over 50k is terribad. Even with healer support in trials many sorcs even really darn good ones just go dry, because one or two miscasts and it's through.

MagSorc sustain in PvP is highly dependant on set and skill usage dark conversion, light armor shield anulment, and ele drain in addition to a sustain set are all used in tandem or 3/4 to get to a workable number.

The problem with the capicator passive is it depends on Regen number, as it just buffs Regen which is nice but in pve your Regen is not high enough for this to really net much sustain.

Sustain has been the main point since ZOS started asking for pain points.

@Illuvatarr How would StamSorc benefit from blood magic passive as they do not have any skills from that line they would use in pve... Unless it worked in a different way oooor (MELEE FRAG!!)

Lord-Otto

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

Sustain is not fine. But rather than Blood Magic, rework Conversion to instant cast.
Blood Magic should actually help self-healing better.

Illuvatarr

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

cpuScientist wrote: »

So in PvE the main pain point for sorc is sustain. As dark deal is a bad skill for pve just terrible and not usable. Every class has a sustain skill and a passive usually. DK has 2 sustain passives being the only class without mag sustaining skill in class. Currently blood magic provides a paltry unreliable heal turning this into a sustain passive would greatly help the class.

The class has the worst sustain and for a long while has had near bottom DPS only brought along for conduit synergy. They have had their dps raised this patch with the pet buffs which will most likely be nerfed again. But the pain point remains sorc sustain is the worst in game.

Going empty on a 3 mil pulling over 50k is terribad. Even with healer support in trials many sorcs even really darn good ones just go dry, because one or two miscasts and it's through.

MagSorc sustain in PvP is highly dependant on set and skill usage dark conversion, light armor shield anulment, and ele drain in addition to a sustain set are all used in tandem or 3/4 to get to a workable number.

The problem with the capicator passive is it depends on Regen number, as it just buffs Regen which is nice but in pve your Regen is not high enough for this to really net much sustain.

Sustain has been the main point since ZOS started asking for pain points.

@Illuvatarr How would StamSorc benefit from blood magic passive as they do not have any skills from that line they would use in pve... Unless it worked in a different way oooor (MELEE FRAG!!)

All spells in the dark magic line proc blood magic from my understanding. I have seen stam sorcs using defensive rune as well as rune cage. And yes, all about making a stam morph for frags.

Illuvatarr

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

idk wrote: »

Glad OP decided to provide some reasoning for why they created this post per my suggestion.

1. OP mentions 'band-aid" remedies but that is all this suggestion is. It does not really do anything to really fix Sorcs. OP also fails to suggest why the Sorc should gain more sustain passives than other classes have.

2, For what content are Sorcs having to use Lich or Bright Throat for sustain? If PvE you are probably running with a bad group or you have a bad rotation. Since you are talking pet build (only reason to use Necro) that is the most sustain friendly build in game. It if talking PvP, that is all about sustain and most players run high sustain in PvP unless they are going for a fast gank build.

In PvE most dps run a trial set for major slayer and because there are a few good magicka sets that drop in trials. I do not see people running Lich or Bright Throat in trials.

So in the end, I do not see anything that would change my mind. There is certainly no justification provided for more Sorcs to have more sustain passives than any other class.

This is a solid rebuttal but it fails to address the main point of my post. The higher sustain is warranted given how powerful a counter cloak and dodge are against mag sorc offense. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that every class has an additional hard counter against sorcs. Overpowering the pet line seems like a lazy and incompetent remedy to this issue. The CP thief line greatly enhances the effects and sustainability of stamina defense in pvp and the comparable reduction in magicka abilities to counter it simply isnt enough. Sorcs should be able to land their burst as consistently as the stam classes without running a full bar of magicka on a spam dodge roller. Your post while ostensibly accurate fails to address the point of my post. Balance.

Ragnaroek93

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

Illuvatarr wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Glad OP decided to provide some reasoning for why they created this post per my suggestion.

1. OP mentions 'band-aid" remedies but that is all this suggestion is. It does not really do anything to really fix Sorcs. OP also fails to suggest why the Sorc should gain more sustain passives than other classes have.

2, For what content are Sorcs having to use Lich or Bright Throat for sustain? If PvE you are probably running with a bad group or you have a bad rotation. Since you are talking pet build (only reason to use Necro) that is the most sustain friendly build in game. It if talking PvP, that is all about sustain and most players run high sustain in PvP unless they are going for a fast gank build.

In PvE most dps run a trial set for major slayer and because there are a few good magicka sets that drop in trials. I do not see people running Lich or Bright Throat in trials.

So in the end, I do not see anything that would change my mind. There is certainly no justification provided for more Sorcs to have more sustain passives than any other class.

This is a solid rebuttal but it fails to address the main point of my post. The higher sustain is warranted given how powerful a counter cloak and dodge are against mag sorc offense. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that every class has an additional hard counter against sorcs. Overpowering the pet line seems like a lazy and incompetent remedy to this issue. The CP thief line greatly enhances the effects and sustainability of stamina defense in pvp and the comparable reduction in magicka abilities to counter it simply isnt enough. Sorcs should be able to land their burst as consistently as the stam classes without running a full bar of magicka on a spam dodge roller. Your post while ostensibly accurate fails to address the point of my post. Balance.

Being able to survive against sorcs isn't a hardcounter to the class. I think you're underestimating the advantage which range gives you (especially since gapclosers and speed pots are nerfed), having some tools to defend against range is just fair in my opinion, otherwise sorcs would just blow up everything while being 40m away. Sorc has the toolkit to defend itself against pretty much everything as well, I don't see your issue. There are no dodge roll spammers, there's only Cloak and as much as I hate the ability it's currently necessary to enable squishy builds or do you want everyone playing a heavy armor fury/legion build?

Illuvatarr

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Glad OP decided to provide some reasoning for why they created this post per my suggestion.

1. OP mentions 'band-aid" remedies but that is all this suggestion is. It does not really do anything to really fix Sorcs. OP also fails to suggest why the Sorc should gain more sustain passives than other classes have.

2, For what content are Sorcs having to use Lich or Bright Throat for sustain? If PvE you are probably running with a bad group or you have a bad rotation. Since you are talking pet build (only reason to use Necro) that is the most sustain friendly build in game. It if talking PvP, that is all about sustain and most players run high sustain in PvP unless they are going for a fast gank build.

In PvE most dps run a trial set for major slayer and because there are a few good magicka sets that drop in trials. I do not see people running Lich or Bright Throat in trials.

So in the end, I do not see anything that would change my mind. There is certainly no justification provided for more Sorcs to have more sustain passives than any other class.

This is a solid rebuttal but it fails to address the main point of my post. The higher sustain is warranted given how powerful a counter cloak and dodge are against mag sorc offense. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that every class has an additional hard counter against sorcs. Overpowering the pet line seems like a lazy and incompetent remedy to this issue. The CP thief line greatly enhances the effects and sustainability of stamina defense in pvp and the comparable reduction in magicka abilities to counter it simply isnt enough. Sorcs should be able to land their burst as consistently as the stam classes without running a full bar of magicka on a spam dodge roller. Your post while ostensibly accurate fails to address the point of my post. Balance.

Being able to survive against sorcs isn't a hardcounter to the class. I think you're underestimating the advantage which range gives you (especially since gapclosers and speed pots are nerfed), having some tools to defend against range is just fair in my opinion, otherwise sorcs would just blow up everything while being 40m away. Sorc has the toolkit to defend itself against pretty much everything as well, I don't see your issue. There are no dodge roll spammers, there's only Cloak and as much as I hate the ability it's currently necessary to enable squishy builds or do you want everyone playing a heavy armor fury/legion build?

Agreed. Hence the need for additional sustain to sorcs to balance having 60 percent or more of our attacks miss stam toons.

Dodge is a hard counter to sorcs. Reflect is a hard counter to sorcs. Total dark is a hard counter to sorcs. Purge is a hard counter to sorcs. Spell reflect is a hard counter to sorcs. Cloak is a hard counter to sorcs. Gap closers are a hard counter to streak.

I get the reasoning. Balance on the other side would be giving sorcs hard counters to the other classes or increased sustain.

Alucardo

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

Browiseth wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

My vote wasn't actually because I think sorc sustain is fine, but no because you're nerfing tanks. Sorc tanking is already meh as it is, and removing their max health based heal would only hurt them more.

"Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well"

also, double post OP lol

Return health, magicka and stamina in a single passive, on top of their 15% ultimate cost reduction, 5% stam/magicka cost reduction, 10% magicka recovery, 20% stam recovery and dark deal/conversion? Yeah, no thanks.

Lord-Otto

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

Illuvatarr wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Illuvatarr wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Glad OP decided to provide some reasoning for why they created this post per my suggestion.

1. OP mentions 'band-aid" remedies but that is all this suggestion is. It does not really do anything to really fix Sorcs. OP also fails to suggest why the Sorc should gain more sustain passives than other classes have.

2, For what content are Sorcs having to use Lich or Bright Throat for sustain? If PvE you are probably running with a bad group or you have a bad rotation. Since you are talking pet build (only reason to use Necro) that is the most sustain friendly build in game. It if talking PvP, that is all about sustain and most players run high sustain in PvP unless they are going for a fast gank build.

In PvE most dps run a trial set for major slayer and because there are a few good magicka sets that drop in trials. I do not see people running Lich or Bright Throat in trials.

So in the end, I do not see anything that would change my mind. There is certainly no justification provided for more Sorcs to have more sustain passives than any other class.

This is a solid rebuttal but it fails to address the main point of my post. The higher sustain is warranted given how powerful a counter cloak and dodge are against mag sorc offense. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that every class has an additional hard counter against sorcs. Overpowering the pet line seems like a lazy and incompetent remedy to this issue. The CP thief line greatly enhances the effects and sustainability of stamina defense in pvp and the comparable reduction in magicka abilities to counter it simply isnt enough. Sorcs should be able to land their burst as consistently as the stam classes without running a full bar of magicka on a spam dodge roller. Your post while ostensibly accurate fails to address the point of my post. Balance.

Being able to survive against sorcs isn't a hardcounter to the class. I think you're underestimating the advantage which range gives you (especially since gapclosers and speed pots are nerfed), having some tools to defend against range is just fair in my opinion, otherwise sorcs would just blow up everything while being 40m away. Sorc has the toolkit to defend itself against pretty much everything as well, I don't see your issue. There are no dodge roll spammers, there's only Cloak and as much as I hate the ability it's currently necessary to enable squishy builds or do you want everyone playing a heavy armor fury/legion build?

Agreed. Hence the need for additional sustain to sorcs to balance having 60 percent or more of our attacks miss stam toons.

Dodge is a hard counter to sorcs. Reflect is a hard counter to sorcs. Total dark is a hard counter to sorcs. Purge is a hard counter to sorcs. Spell reflect is a hard counter to sorcs. Cloak is a hard counter to sorcs. Gap closers are a hard counter to streak.

I get the reasoning. Balance on the other side would be giving sorcs hard counters to the other classes or increased sustain.

We do have counters. They're just not very good.

- Mines are there to cut melee mobility (circling around you) and level the superior melee damage. But they tickle, are immobile and expensive and stam players just dodge through three of them. They're not even considered AoE!
- Boundless is a mobile melee deterrent that also combats Cloak. Unfortunately, the damage is almost non-existant and melee actually outranges it. xD This also makes it a joke against Cloak.
- Streak should counter gapclosers. But it has less range, struggles on terrain and has the ridiculous cost increase. You won't open a gap with this, you can only hope to maintain a gap with it. At which point a melee player can just walk away. The streaker won't walk away from a successful gapcloser, though.
- Shields used to counter crit builds. Yeah.
- Force Pulse (used to be sorc spammable) countered wings. Loss of Frag stun and subsequent Master Reach meta took this off the board.
- Rune Cage could counter blockers, later even dodgers. A now telegraphed stun really doesn't counter anything, especially since it's so easily dodged.

See? There have been counters at one point in time. The class was designed with 'em. It's the endless nerf tirade that gutted the class so much.

And instead of admitting mistakes and reworking the class, finally fixing it and making it WORK, ZOS simply overbuff pets whenever they need a band-aid solution. Infuriating sorcs who don't like pets, infuriating non-sorcs who have to fight against pets, infuriating allies who have to deal with view-blocking stupid pets. And when the inevitable nerf comes (you know the discord), we're again stuck with the same problems listed above that we've been suffering from for years. It's like watching a toddler trying to ram the round shape into the square opening again and again.
*sigh*

idk

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

Illuvatarr wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Glad OP decided to provide some reasoning for why they created this post per my suggestion.

1. OP mentions 'band-aid" remedies but that is all this suggestion is. It does not really do anything to really fix Sorcs. OP also fails to suggest why the Sorc should gain more sustain passives than other classes have.

2, For what content are Sorcs having to use Lich or Bright Throat for sustain? If PvE you are probably running with a bad group or you have a bad rotation. Since you are talking pet build (only reason to use Necro) that is the most sustain friendly build in game. It if talking PvP, that is all about sustain and most players run high sustain in PvP unless they are going for a fast gank build.

In PvE most dps run a trial set for major slayer and because there are a few good magicka sets that drop in trials. I do not see people running Lich or Bright Throat in trials.

So in the end, I do not see anything that would change my mind. There is certainly no justification provided for more Sorcs to have more sustain passives than any other class.

This is a solid rebuttal but it fails to address the main point of my post. The higher sustain is warranted given how powerful a counter cloak and dodge are against mag sorc offense. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that every class has an additional hard counter against sorcs. Overpowering the pet line seems like a lazy and incompetent remedy to this issue. The CP thief line greatly enhances the effects and sustainability of stamina defense in pvp and the comparable reduction in magicka abilities to counter it simply isnt enough. Sorcs should be able to land their burst as consistently as the stam classes without running a full bar of magicka on a spam dodge roller. Your post while ostensibly accurate fails to address the point of my post. Balance.

it is irrelevant if I failed to address the main point of your post. Without addressing you want the sorc to have more passives for sustain than the other classes your idea falls flat.

So my comment speaks to the lack of foundation to your argument that without such thoughts in the OP the rest is just a house of cards. It also seems few agree since on a busy weekend day this thread is still on it's first page and less than 30 people have been compelled to vote in the poll. I am sorry to say but the idea just does not seem to be drawing much interest and Sorcs are often a hot topic in the forums.

Edit: And you are talking about PvP. I run much higher sustain in PvP than in PvE. I get it from somewhere, glyphs, sets bonus, mundus. In PvE I do not add any sustain to a dps build outside of witchmother's brew or the likes.

Betty_Booms

idk wrote: »

Glad OP decided to provide some reasoning for why they created this post per my suggestion.

1. OP mentions 'band-aid" remedies but that is all this suggestion is. It does not really do anything to really fix Sorcs. OP also fails to suggest why the Sorc should gain more sustain passives than other classes have.

2, For what content are Sorcs having to use Lich or Bright Throat for sustain? If PvE you are probably running with a bad group or you have a bad rotation. Since you are talking pet build (only reason to use Necro) that is the most sustain friendly build in game. It if talking PvP, that is all about sustain and most players run high sustain in PvP unless they are going for a fast gank build.

In PvE most dps run a trial set for major slayer and because there are a few good magicka sets that drop in trials. I do not see people running Lich or Bright Throat in trials.

So in the end, I do not see anything that would change my mind. There is certainly no justification provided for more Sorcs to have more sustain passives than any other class.

1. The argument is for equal sustain. It is well known mag sorcs are deficient with sustain. Go ahead and argue it all you like. Passives is one source. Other classes alsonderive it from class skills. The argument is that additional passive may bring us to equal sustain. Im sorry you dont see that but it was quite obvious in the OP.
2. Necro is max magicka and has not got an ounce of sustain on it..dont you even play a mag sorc? BTB is arguabley best for sustain...
3. You appear quite invested in keeping sorcs nerfed in this state. Almost bias.... your post seems to be aimed at trying to discount little technicalities the OP may not be pointing out... But I for one do understand without the crayon pictures. Sorcs need more sustain

NyassaV

Sorc sustain in PvP is fine. It's beyond fine. But in PvE it is very lacking so I understand the concern. I'm not sure buffing regen is the way to go about it though

cpuScientist

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

Buffing Regen is not the way to go about it. This would be minor in PvE and more impactful in PvP. But something akin to the DK resource sustain from applying burning poisoned would be enough to sustain a bit better. And this could very well be placed in blood magic. However I just don't know how Stam would take advantage of this.

Betty_Booms

NyassaV wrote: »

Sorc sustain in PvP is fine. It's beyond fine. But in PvE it is very lacking so I understand the concern. I'm not sure buffing regen is the way to go about it though

I actually switched to a breton because its so abysmal now...

Illuvatarr

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

To give some perspective, 54 to 45 percent is the margin by which California( long recognized as a deeply Democratic State) has historically voted in the past several Presidential Elections. It also happens to be the the current margin voting in favor of increasing Sorcerer sustain. 5 points short of what the United States Senate considers a super majority.

PhoenixGrey

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

Remove streak stacking cost.

I dont wanna slot a cast time skill to sustain open world

Pdoherty4637_ESO

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

I voted yes but don't really agree with the implementation of the fix, and I'd tend to agree with @PhoenixGrey that the single best sustain tool in pvp would be to remove the streak stack or at the very least not have the cost increase compound on itself (especially because it is used so often offensively against cloak/dodge which quickly can run you out of magicka) While I wholeheartedly agree that fighting a roll dodge-chainer is frustrating and have personally burned through resources fighting said builds, I don't think adding sustain to the sorc kit is the answer to that question. All it would net you is losing more frags LAs, endless furys and clench/reaches to the ether. I find after murkmire, when they adjusted the roll dodge/ projectile interaction the situation became marginally worse and that interaction has always been adversely affected by ping/game lag.

Roll dodge is strong, no doubt, but more sustain isn't really the answer. Fixing sorcerer's counters to cloak/dodge is, in my opinion, the correct path to making those fights more balanced (point made by @Lord-Otto above). If mines was a better counter to melee aggression (or honestly just cheaper), streak didn't immediately run you out of Magicka when used in succession and didn't soft CC you on cast/completion, boundless actually disincentivized getting too close for too long (or provided better utility), and a few other minor ability tweaks were implemented, sorcerer wouldn't feel so frustrating to play in those situations.

Solariken

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

Learn how to use Persistence and Dark Conv and all your sustain dreams will come true.

PhoenixGrey

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

Pdoherty4637_ESO wrote: »

I voted yes but don't really agree with the implementation of the fix, and I'd tend to agree with @PhoenixGrey that the single best sustain tool in pvp would be to remove the streak stack or at the very least not have the cost increase compound on itself (especially because it is used so often offensively against cloak/dodge which quickly can run you out of magicka) While I wholeheartedly agree that fighting a roll dodge-chainer is frustrating and have personally burned through resources fighting said builds, I don't think adding sustain to the sorc kit is the answer to that question. All it would net you is losing more frags LAs, endless furys and clench/reaches to the ether. I find after murkmire, when they adjusted the roll dodge/ projectile interaction the situation became marginally worse and that interaction has always been adversely affected by ping/game lag.

Roll dodge is strong, no doubt, but more sustain isn't really the answer. Fixing sorcerer's counters to cloak/dodge is, in my opinion, the correct path to making those fights more balanced (point made by @Lord-Otto above). If mines was a better counter to melee aggression (or honestly just cheaper), streak didn't immediately run you out of Magicka when used in succession and didn't soft CC you on cast/completion, boundless actually disincentivized getting too close for too long (or provided better utility), and a few other minor ability tweaks were implemented, sorcerer wouldn't feel so frustrating to play in those situations.

Yeah. Agree with all those points.

Unfortunately ZOS is bent upon reinventing the wheel with pets and useless shield tweaks rather than reverting nerfs which shouldn't have happened in the first place

mag sorc is literally the easiest thing to balance in this game

darkblue5

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

Honestly Magsorcs are in a pretty good spot in PvP if you actually use any of the tools ZOS has given you. Right now in PVE and PVP not playing pet sorc because you don't like it is a bit like not running Grim Focus on a PVE stamblade because you don't like how the Assassin's Will proc is the laggiest and thus most rhythm disrupting skill for weaving. You're right about the downsides and wackiness but on balance you should be happy that your class spec is in a good place. I'm sorry but SnB Sorc with flappy friend is what you should be doing to have the most traditional experience (except your shields are stronger and your burst is still sufficient). The Twilight heal alone justifies it based on just being better than what Resto offered, and besides that with Necro and Expert Summoner both your stats and shields will be plain better. With the flying DoT you'll have enough pressure to run a real pure regen set like Lich and force your opponents into eating your combo or dying to pressure.

Sustain in PVP on Magsorc isn't great but the more than sufficient damage you have solo lets you build for regen pretty freely.
In PVE there are some issues with sorcerer sustain in general but the recommended solution is pretty bad. The regen would largely be tied to an RNG proc that on average might offer the right amount of sustain but in practice would play poorly. The threat of randomly under sustaining because you're not getting your crystal frag procs would be a lot worse than the benefit of over sustaining with good RNG. This would also force the bad bandage fix of stamfrags on stam sorc which would in practice make the most boring PVE stamina class still be extremely boring but at least have access to the passive that's supposed to make it attractive to groups. (Honestly Bound Armor should be reworked into something that purely helps tanks so the glut of nonskills on PVE sorc bars can reduced in favor of actual skills. It isn't like Sorc tanks don't need the help.)

Pdoherty4637_ESO

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

I simply refuse to believe I should be forced into playing with twilight, and punished for playing pure sorc. While I agree its more effective currently in wrathstone pvp, I think pets are cheesy, I hate how they look and how large the models are, I hate how the pet targeting system makes them mobile LOS centers, and I hate playing against them. I'm not alone. In general pet spec is not for me in pvp (in pve i think they're fine and have one spec'd). When people say I should just get over it, that really irks me, as it's not the whole focus of the class, its just one way to play. Also pets vs. no pets in pvp is really not comparable to stam NBs not using grim focus in pve, I mean..... what even?

With about 2 changes to passives that could give alternate benefits if no pets are summoned to add some flavor to the pets/no-pets choice, or even just the vanilla option of tying deadric summoning passives to deadric summoning skills instead of ONLY pet skills, pure sorcerer becomes just as strong as pet sorc without buffing pet sorc further. I simply don't understand the knee-jerk reaction to just hop on the most effective meta play style and discourage everyone else for not doing so when that's not how people have been playing for 4+ years. Just because pets are good in wrathstone doesn't mean everyone should be pigeon-holed into using them. if you love pets, great! have fun, but the fixes for the way many sorcs choose to/want to play are really just so easy.

Lord-Otto

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

Pdoherty4637_ESO wrote: »

I simply refuse to believe I should be forced into playing with twilight, and punished for playing pure sorc. While I agree its more effective currently in wrathstone pvp, I think pets are cheesy, I hate how they look and how large the models are, I hate how the pet targeting system makes them mobile LOS centers, and I hate playing against them. I'm not alone. In general pet spec is not for me in pvp (in pve i think they're fine and have one spec'd). When people say I should just get over it, that really irks me, as it's not the whole focus of the class, its just one way to play. Also pets vs. no pets in pvp is really not comparable to stam NBs not using grim focus in pve, I mean..... what even?

With about 2 changes to passives that could give alternate benefits if no pets are summoned to add some flavor to the pets/no-pets choice, or even just the vanilla option of tying deadric summoning passives to deadric summoning skills instead of ONLY pet skills, pure sorcerer becomes just as strong as pet sorc without buffing pet sorc further. I simply don't understand the knee-jerk reaction to just hop on the most effective meta play style and discourage everyone else for not doing so when that's not how people have been playing for 4+ years. Just because pets are good in wrathstone doesn't mean everyone should be pigeon-holed into using them. if you love pets, great! have fun, but the fixes for the way many sorcs choose to/want to play are really just so easy.

*tips wizard hat applauding*

olsborg

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

All I can say is that crystal frag procc is a joke, it never hits because someone either dodges it or just blocks it. Dodge moreso since its supereasy to dodge cf and assassin will.

idk

No, Sorcerer sustain is fine

Betty_Booms wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Glad OP decided to provide some reasoning for why they created this post per my suggestion.

1. OP mentions 'band-aid" remedies but that is all this suggestion is. It does not really do anything to really fix Sorcs. OP also fails to suggest why the Sorc should gain more sustain passives than other classes have.

2, For what content are Sorcs having to use Lich or Bright Throat for sustain? If PvE you are probably running with a bad group or you have a bad rotation. Since you are talking pet build (only reason to use Necro) that is the most sustain friendly build in game. It if talking PvP, that is all about sustain and most players run high sustain in PvP unless they are going for a fast gank build.

In PvE most dps run a trial set for major slayer and because there are a few good magicka sets that drop in trials. I do not see people running Lich or Bright Throat in trials.

So in the end, I do not see anything that would change my mind. There is certainly no justification provided for more Sorcs to have more sustain passives than any other class.

1. The argument is for equal sustain. It is well known mag sorcs are deficient with sustain. Go ahead and argue it all you like. Passives is one source. Other classes alsonderive it from class skills. The argument is that additional passive may bring us to equal sustain. Im sorry you dont see that but it was quite obvious in the OP.
2. Necro is max magicka and has not got an ounce of sustain on it..dont you even play a mag sorc? BTB is arguabley best for sustain...
3. You appear quite invested in keeping sorcs nerfed in this state. Almost bias.... your post seems to be aimed at trying to discount little technicalities the OP may not be pointing out... But I for one do understand without the crayon pictures. Sorcs need more sustain

1. The argument is not really about equal sustain and you can say that all you want but the OP did not actually make that argument. They are merely stating they are of the opinion they want more for the Sorcs and really do not make a solid argument for that.

2. I think the punctuation tripped you up. My statement about Necro was in relation to pet builds, not sustain. OP does not actually mention pet builds, but the necro set so when I mentioned pet builds being the most sustain friendly builds in the game I felt it important to include the context that the only reason to wear necro was with a pet build. That little statement in parenthesis right after mentioning pet builds probably tripped you up, understandable.

Besides, I think most that are in the forums regularly know Necro is max magicka all the way even if they do not play a mSorc.

3. Again I suggest reading what I stated properly. I clearly stated that OP has not made a justification for the sorc class to have two passives for sustain when the other classes do not, and neither have you. My point was to help drive a well thought out idea since Zos has time for threads like that, but there are to many threads for them to try to go through threads that do not present complete arguments.

BTW. I have played a mag sorc for 5 years now. It is one of the two classes I play the most

Illuvatarr

Yes, Blood Magic should return magicka and stamina as well

idk wrote: »

Betty_Booms wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Glad OP decided to provide some reasoning for why they created this post per my suggestion.

1. OP mentions 'band-aid" remedies but that is all this suggestion is. It does not really do anything to really fix Sorcs. OP also fails to suggest why the Sorc should gain more sustain passives than other classes have.

2, For what content are Sorcs having to use Lich or Bright Throat for sustain? If PvE you are probably running with a bad group or you have a bad rotation. Since you are talking pet build (only reason to use Necro) that is the most sustain friendly build in game. It if talking PvP, that is all about sustain and most players run high sustain in PvP unless they are going for a fast gank build.

In PvE most dps run a trial set for major slayer and because there are a few good magicka sets that drop in trials. I do not see people running Lich or Bright Throat in trials.

So in the end, I do not see anything that would change my mind. There is certainly no justification provided for more Sorcs to have more sustain passives than any other class.

1. The argument is for equal sustain. It is well known mag sorcs are deficient with sustain. Go ahead and argue it all you like. Passives is one source. Other classes alsonderive it from class skills. The argument is that additional passive may bring us to equal sustain. Im sorry you dont see that but it was quite obvious in the OP.
2. Necro is max magicka and has not got an ounce of sustain on it..dont you even play a mag sorc? BTB is arguabley best for sustain...
3. You appear quite invested in keeping sorcs nerfed in this state. Almost bias.... your post seems to be aimed at trying to discount little technicalities the OP may not be pointing out... But I for one do understand without the crayon pictures. Sorcs need more sustain

1. The argument is not really about equal sustain and you can say that all you want but the OP did not actually make that argument. They are merely stating they are of the opinion they want more for the Sorcs and really do not make a solid argument for that.

2. I think the punctuation tripped you up. My statement about Necro was in relation to pet builds, not sustain. OP does not actually mention pet builds, but the necro set so when I mentioned pet builds being the most sustain friendly builds in the game I felt it important to include the context that the only reason to wear necro was with a pet build. That little statement in parenthesis right after mentioning pet builds probably tripped you up, understandable.

Besides, I think most that are in the forums regularly know Necro is max magicka all the way even if they do not play a mSorc.

3. Again I suggest reading what I stated properly. I clearly stated that OP has not made a justification for the sorc class to have two passives for sustain when the other classes do not, and neither have you. My point was to help drive a well thought out idea since Zos has time for threads like that, but there are to many threads for them to try to go through threads that do not present complete arguments.

BTW. I have played a mag sorc for 5 years now. It is one of the two classes I play the most

“I think a viable argument can be made to either increase the magicka regen on capacitor or to provide sorcerers with another source of sustain”. First paragraph I typed.

The entire post is about sustain. Yes gonna let you have your gotcha moment I suppose since you have read the poll question 100 times apparently and didn’t bother to read anything else.