Magicka Templar DPS Build (Endgame PVE)

WrathOfInnos

I've been having a lot of fun with this class lately and thought I would share the build I've landed on. It pulls good DPS and is very easy to play. Works well in all trials. I'm sure there are others doing similar things, but here is my take on it:

Race
Breton is best, followed by Dunmer and Altmer
Vampirism recommended for the 10% magicka recovery, but not required

Food
Blue Bi-stat Food (Solitude Salmon Millet Soup, Melon Baked Parmesan Pork, or Mistral Banana Bunny Hash)
If more magicka recovery is needed (especially for non-sustain races) you can use Witchmother's Potent Brew or Clockwork Citrus Filet

Mundus Stone
Shadow, gives an incredible 19% Critical Damage with Divines armor

Attributes
64 Magicka

Gear
Sets:
5X Mother's Sorrow (always on)
5X Perfected Siroria (front bar only, with Inferno Staff)
2X Zaan
1X Maelstrom Inferno Staff

Traits:
7X Divines Armor
3X Bloodthirsty Jewelry (there are a few fights where Infused is better, but Bloodthirsty is best for most)
2X Infused Staves (or precise on front bar for more AoE damage)

Enchants:
7X Magicka on Armor
3X Spell Damage on Jewelry
Fiery Weapon on front bar staff
Berserker on back bar staff

Substitutions:

• Zaan can be swapped to Slimecraw if you are not getting combat prayer (such as vAS, or solo content)
• Zaan can be swapped to Iceheart if you want more survivability
• Siroria can be used if you do not have Perfected Siroria
• Burning Spellweave can be used instead of Siroria for mobile fights
• Moondancer can be used instead of Siroria for mobile fights if you need more sustain
• Spell Strategist can be used instead of Siroria for mobile fights against a single enemy
• Spinners can be used instead of Siroria for trash fights
• If you don't have any of the above, just use Julianos instead of Siroria
• If you don't have a Maelstrom staff, use two Inferno Staves of the same set so it is active on both bars

Skills
Front Bar: Elemental Weapon, Reflective Light, Radiant Oppression, Radiant Ward, Inner Light, Shooting Star
Back Bar: Blockade of Fire, Blazing Spear, Solar Barrage, Channeled Focus, Channeled Acceleration, Flex Ultimate (Nova, Elemental Rage, Barrier, etc.)
Note: Vampire's Bane can be used instead of Reflective Light for more single target damage, but this results in a dynamic rotation.

Rotation
Pre-buff with Channeled Acceleration and Channeled Focus, then perform the following:
Solar Barrage, Blazing Spear, Blockade, swap, Reflective Light, Elemental Weapon X4, swap, repeat

When the enemy gets to 37% health, this changes to:
Blazing Spear, Blockade, swap, Radiant Oppression X3, swap, repeat

For trash pulls where you can hit 2-3 targets with Reflective Light, this becomes your spammable (don't use Elemental Weapon). Therefore the trash rotation is:
Solar Barrage, Blazing Spear, Blockade, swap, Reflective Light X5, swap, repeat

For any of these rotations, recasting Channeled Acceleration happens between Blockade and bar swap, and means you do 2 fewer spammables (or one less beam) when you get to the front bar. Recasting Channeled Focus also would occur between Blockade and the bar swap, and replaces one spammable when you get to the front bar.

Champion Points
Blue CP's
24 Spell Erosion
75 Thaumaturge
56 Elemental Expert
40 Elfborn
19 Staff Expert
56 Master at Arms
If your group debuffs are great (high uptimes on Alkosh, Torugs Infused Crusher, Major and Minor Breach), move up to 16 points from Spell Erosion (down to 8) and into Elfborn (up to 56).

Red and Green CP's can vary by content
I do recommend 34 into Bastion with this build if you plan on doing much resurrecting of allies. Unlike the Light Armor shield, Radiant Ward does benefit from the increased shield strength, and the 10 and 30 point passives in the Lord tree can really help for preventing a wipe.

Parses

My most recent Gryphon Heart (vCR+3, playing safe for no death)


My most recent Immortal Redeemer run (vAS+2, playing safe for no death), dropped barrage for double bar inner light since poison pools prevented melee range


Random vSO Stonebreaker, slightly outdated since I had not started using Shadow Stone or Solar Barrage yet


Will add more soon.

Masel

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I've been having a lot of fun with this class lately and thought I would share the build I've landed on. It pulls good DPS and is very easy to play. I'm sure there are others doing similar things, but here is my take on it:

Race
Breton is best, followed by Dunmer and Altmer
Vampirism recommended for the 10% magicka recovery, but not required

Food
Blue Bi-stat Food (Solitude Salmon Millet Soup, Melon Baked Parmesan Pork, or Mistral Banana Bunny Hash)
If more magicka recovery is needed (especially for non-sustain races) you can use Witchmother's Potent Brew or Clockwork Citrus Filet

Mundus Stone
Shadow, gives an incredible 19% Critical Damage with Divines armor

Gear
Sets:
5X Mother's Sorrow (always on)
5X Perfected Siroria (front bar only, with Inferno Staff)
2X Zaan
1X Maelstrom Inferno Staff

Traits:
7X Divines Armor
3X Bloodthirsty Jewelry (there are a few fights where Infused is better, but Bloodthirsty is best for most)
2X Infused Staves

Enchants:
7X Magicka on Armor
3X Spell Damage on Jewelry
Fiery Weapon on front bar staff
Berserker on back bar staff

Substitutions:

• Zaan can be swapped to Slimecraw if you are not getting combat prayer (such as vAS, or solo content)
• Zaan can be swapped to Iceheart if you want more survivability
• Siroria can be used if you do not have Perfected Siroria
• Burning Spellweave can be used instead of Siroria for mobile fights
• Moondancer can be used instead of Siroria for mobile fights if you need more sustain
• Spell Strategist can be used instead of Siroria for mobile fights against a single enemy
• Spinners can be used instead of Siroria for trash fights
• If you don't have any of the above, just use Julianos instead of Siroria
• If you don't have a Maelstrom staff, use two Inferno Staves of the same set so it is active on both bars

Skills
Front Bar: Elemental Weapon, Reflective Light, Radiant Oppression, Radiant Ward, Inner Light, Shooting Star
Back Bar: Blockade of Fire, Blazing Spear, Solar Barrage, Channeled Focus, Channeled Acceleration, Flex Ultimate (Nova, Elemental Rage, Barrier, etc.)

Rotation
Pre-buff with Channeled Acceleration and Channeled Focus, then perform the following:
Solar Barrage, Blazing Spear, Blockade, swap, Reflective Light, Elemental Weapon X4, swap, repeat

When the enemy gets to 35% health, this changes to:
Blazing Spear, Blockade, swap, Radiant Oppression X3, swap, repeat

For trash pulls where you can hit 2-3 targets with Reflective Light, this becomes your spammable (don't use Elemental Weapon). Therefore the trash rotation is:
Solar Barrage, Blazing Spear, Blockade, swap, Reflective Light X5, swap, repeat

For any of these rotations, recasting Channeled Acceleration happens between Blockade and bar swap, and means you do 2 fewer spammables (or one less beam) when you get to the front bar. Recasting Channeled Focus also would occur between Blockade and the bar swap, and replaces one spammable when you get to the front bar.

Champion Points
Blue CP's
10 Spell Erosion
81 Thaumaturge
56 Elemental Expert
48 Elfborn
19 Staff Expert
56 Master at Arms

Red and Green CP's can vary by content

Will add parses and more information later

A tiny tweak: have you tried switching blazing and radiant ward? Would lead to a higher front bar time, especially in execute...

WrathOfInnos

Masel wrote: »

A tiny tweak: have you tried switching blazing and radiant ward? Would lead to a higher front bar time, especially in execute...

@Masel Thanks for the suggestion. Yes, Blazing Spear front bar and Shield on back is what I ran in Murkmire patch (with Harness or Dampen), since Elemental Blockade needed to be on the bar opposite Elemental Rage for the Ancient Knowledge passive, and using Crescent Sweep as the Aedric Spear ability on back bar for the 10% Crit Damage.

I find that my current setup works better for a few reasons:

• For vCR+3 it is nice to have your shield on the same bar as you spammable, so that during Voltaic Overload you are only losing access to your long duration DoTs and buffs
• Similarly I find that it is safer to have a shield on the front bar whenever possible, since you will be there most of the time. Then if you need to shield reactively it is quicker and requires one button instead of a bar swap then activating shield.
• For opening a fight, the best burst order is buffs > barrage (2s delay before first tick) > Blazing (~1s delay before first tick) > Blockade (instant). With my current bars, this is literally pushing 5,4,3,2,1 with no bar swaps. Blazing in front bar complicates the rotation with two additional bar swaps. This also applies to anytime you have to switch targets, or reapply DoTs when a boss moves (like ZMaja).
• Related to the last one, when moving DoTs (casting Barrage and Spear) I am often moving toward the new stack, which means I do not want my Siroria circle to drop at my current location. With Siroria on front bar only, and Blazing on back bar, I can ensure full control of the circle’s location. Only dropping it after I have placed my ground DoTs and ready to start hitting Reflecitve Light and Elemental Weapon.

Liofa

I prefer slot Blazing Spear on front bar and have the Aedric Spear Ultimate on back bar and double bar Inner Light when I don't need a shield. It seems to have a small edge compared to Blazing on back bar, at least in my experience.

Btw, Precise front bar is very popular right now due to Shadow buff. In a solo parse, I get higher Burning Status Effect uptime thanks to more frequent Flame Enchant procs which leads to more DPS from Blockade (both gets boosted even more with Engulfing Flames in a raid) but Precise seems to work slightly better with Shadow Mundus, especially in a good group with high Major Force uptime. Also increases cleave damage in trash pulls, not that it matters too much in these days but still ^^

Sadly, I don't get to test these out in actual raids. If you can (or already did), if would be amazing to see the results ^^

WrathOfInnos

Liofa wrote: »

I prefer slot Blazing Spear on front bar and have the Aedric Spear Ultimate on back bar and double bar Inner Light when I don't need a shield. It seems to have a small edge compared to Blazing on back bar, at least in my experience.

Btw, Precise front bar is very popular right now due to Shadow buff. In a solo parse, I get higher Burning Status Effect uptime thanks to more frequent Flame Enchant procs which leads to more DPS from Blockade (both gets boosted even more with Engulfing Flames in a raid) but Precise seems to work slightly better with Shadow Mundus, especially in a good group with high Major Force uptime. Also increases cleave damage in trash pulls, not that it matters too much in these days but still ^^

Sadly, I don't get to test these out in actual raids. If you can (or already did), if would be amazing to see the results ^^

@Liofa I've been testing Precise vs Infused front bar in vAS, TBH I can't tell any significant difference in damage. I think Infused gives a little more ST on Olms, while precise gives a little more splash, so AoE DPS remains the same. Either works perfectly fine. I'll add that to my first post.

The main thing I'm going for with Radiant Ward, is getting away from having to slot Crescent Sweep, which means gaining 2% Max Magicka and 2% Magicka Recovery from Mage's Guild passives.

As for shields, there are situations where they aren't needed, but I think the vast majority of the time every player should have one defensive ability. Some content can be done without one, but in general I wouldn't recommend it.

Edit: In fact, looking back at the vAS parse I posted, I realize that I was actually using Precise on that pull, resulting in max 72% spell crit vs the 65% max spell crit on the vCR parse.

hedna123b14_ESO

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I've been having a lot of fun with this class lately and thought I would share the build I've landed on. It pulls good DPS and is very easy to play. Works well in all trials. I'm sure there are others doing similar things, but here is my take on it:

Race
Breton is best, followed by Dunmer and Altmer
Vampirism recommended for the 10% magicka recovery, but not required

Food
Blue Bi-stat Food (Solitude Salmon Millet Soup, Melon Baked Parmesan Pork, or Mistral Banana Bunny Hash)
If more magicka recovery is needed (especially for non-sustain races) you can use Witchmother's Potent Brew or Clockwork Citrus Filet

Mundus Stone
Shadow, gives an incredible 19% Critical Damage with Divines armor

Attributes
64 Magicka

Gear
Sets:
5X Mother's Sorrow (always on)
5X Perfected Siroria (front bar only, with Inferno Staff)
2X Zaan
1X Maelstrom Inferno Staff

Traits:
7X Divines Armor
3X Bloodthirsty Jewelry (there are a few fights where Infused is better, but Bloodthirsty is best for most)
2X Infused Staves (or precise on front bar for more AoE damage)

Enchants:
7X Magicka on Armor
3X Spell Damage on Jewelry
Fiery Weapon on front bar staff
Berserker on back bar staff

Substitutions:

• Zaan can be swapped to Slimecraw if you are not getting combat prayer (such as vAS, or solo content)
• Zaan can be swapped to Iceheart if you want more survivability
• Siroria can be used if you do not have Perfected Siroria
• Burning Spellweave can be used instead of Siroria for mobile fights
• Moondancer can be used instead of Siroria for mobile fights if you need more sustain
• Spell Strategist can be used instead of Siroria for mobile fights against a single enemy
• Spinners can be used instead of Siroria for trash fights
• If you don't have any of the above, just use Julianos instead of Siroria
• If you don't have a Maelstrom staff, use two Inferno Staves of the same set so it is active on both bars

Skills
Front Bar: Elemental Weapon, Reflective Light, Radiant Oppression, Radiant Ward, Inner Light, Shooting Star
Back Bar: Blockade of Fire, Blazing Spear, Solar Barrage, Channeled Focus, Channeled Acceleration, Flex Ultimate (Nova, Elemental Rage, Barrier, etc.)
Note: Vampire's Bane can be used instead of Reflective Light for more single target damage, but this results in a dynamic rotation.

Rotation
Pre-buff with Channeled Acceleration and Channeled Focus, then perform the following:
Solar Barrage, Blazing Spear, Blockade, swap, Reflective Light, Elemental Weapon X4, swap, repeat

When the enemy gets to 35% health, this changes to:
Blazing Spear, Blockade, swap, Radiant Oppression X3, swap, repeat

For trash pulls where you can hit 2-3 targets with Reflective Light, this becomes your spammable (don't use Elemental Weapon). Therefore the trash rotation is:
Solar Barrage, Blazing Spear, Blockade, swap, Reflective Light X5, swap, repeat

For any of these rotations, recasting Channeled Acceleration happens between Blockade and bar swap, and means you do 2 fewer spammables (or one less beam) when you get to the front bar. Recasting Channeled Focus also would occur between Blockade and the bar swap, and replaces one spammable when you get to the front bar.

Champion Points
Blue CP's
10 Spell Erosion
81 Thaumaturge
56 Elemental Expert
48 Elfborn
19 Staff Expert
56 Master at Arms

Red and Green CP's can vary by content
I do recommend 34 into Bastion with this build if you plan on doing much resurrecting of allies. Unlike the Light Armor shield, Radiant Ward does benefit from the increased shield strength, and the 10 and 30 point passives in the Lord tree can really help for preventing a wipe.

Parses

My most recent Gryphon Heart (vCR+3, playing safe for no death)


My most recent Immortal Redeemer run (vAS+2, playing safe for no death), dropped barrage for double bar inner light since poison pools prevented melee range


Random vSO Stonebreaker, slightly outdated since I had not started using Shadow Stone or Solar Barrage yet


Will add more soon.

Couple of questions for you.
1. Outside of vAS, why not use Crescent Sweep Ult? It gives more damage per ult than fire destro and helps with sustain.
2. What did you find was the difference between Sorrow VS Spell Strat?
3. What has changed to make Radiant worth it over a spammable as early as 35%?

WrathOfInnos

@hedna123b14_ESO What’s up man, you back on the Magicka side of things now?

1. Sounds like we agree that destro ult is best for vAS. In Cloudrest I get the best results with Shooting Star, because I can usually hit at least 3 enemies with it, bringing the effective cost to around 160 ult. Also a ranged ult works better for things like creepers, where you don’t want to run all the way across the room.

In vHoF I may actually be using Crescent soon on 1st boss to provide MA to a group that is starting up. For other fights though (Triplets, Archcustodian, and Assembly General) the burst damage and large AoE if destro are unbeatable.

So that leaves vMoL and Craglorn trials. The few times I’ve tried Crescent there, the numbers seemed disappointing. IIRC the most I’ve ever seen from Crescent is about 6% of DPS, while Fiery Rage and Shooting Star can hit around 10%. If you think it can outperform other ultimates I may have to give it another shot.

2. Spell Strat was a solid choice before Wrathstone, but the nerf to its uptime (4s cooldown to 5s) really hurt the set. I’m only seeing 60-70% uptime if it’s on a single bar, and approaching 80% if it’s on body pieces.

So to compare I’ll give a generous assumption of 80% uptime on SS. So we can compare it’s 129+129+400=658 Spell Damage with MS 3.8+3.8+8.8=16.4% Spell Crit. The 658 Spell Damage works out to about a 9% DPS gain (this was over 11% with the old uptime close to 100%). The 16.4% Spell Crit is closer to 12% DPS gain. This was a reversal in Wrathstone, mostly driven by the new 19% Shadow Stone (with Thief the 16.4% Spell Crit only gives about 10% damage). To be clear this is considering full raid buffs, SS looks slightly better without Major Force and Major Courage.

So Sorrow seems to be performing better even on single target parses. Throw in AoE damage and maybe someone had less-than-perfect weaving and Sorrow pulls ahead even more. The only time I would consider using Spell Strat is if it was paired with Sorrow, in a fight where Siroria was not feasible and splash damage did not matter.

3. Last time I tested, the break even point between Elemental Weapon and Radiant Oppression (with near full Magicka) was right around 33-34% enemy health. I typically start a little earlier because beaming is easier to sustain, so it allows me to get to full resources before the beams become important. If I’m very low Magicka I may even start beaming around 37-38% even though they don’t hit very hard at that point. It’s a small temporary DPS loss to ensure I get the full 20% damage bonus when boss health gets to the low 30’s. Stating exactly 35% as a start point is probably an oversimplification, but in most cases it will work out pretty well.

Is there a different start point you’ve been using? I know you do thorough testing so I’d be interested to see your results.

hedna123b14_ESO

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO What’s up man, you back on the Magicka side of things now?

1. Sounds like we agree that destro ult is best for vAS. In Cloudrest I get the best results with Shooting Star, because I can usually hit at least 3 enemies with it, bringing the effective cost to around 160 ult. Also a ranged ult works better for things like creepers, where you don’t want to run all the way across the room.

In vHoF I may actually be using Crescent soon on 1st boss to provide MA to a group that is starting up. For other fights though (Triplets, Archcustodian, and Assembly General) the burst damage and large AoE if destro are unbeatable.

So that leaves vMoL and Craglorn trials. The few times I’ve tried Crescent there, the numbers seemed disappointing. IIRC the most I’ve ever seen from Crescent is about 6% of DPS, while Fiery Rage and Shooting Star can hit around 10%. If you think it can outperform other ultimates I may have to give it another shot.

2. Spell Strat was a solid choice before Wrathstone, but the nerf to its uptime (4s cooldown to 5s) really hurt the set. I’m only seeing 60-70% uptime if it’s on a single bar, and approaching 80% if it’s on body pieces.

So to compare I’ll give a generous assumption of 80% uptime on SS. So we can compare it’s 129+129+400=658 Spell Damage with MS 3.8+3.8+8.8=16.4% Spell Crit. The 658 Spell Damage works out to about a 9% DPS gain (this was over 11% with the old uptime close to 100%). The 16.4% Spell Crit is closer to 12% DPS gain. This was a reversal in Wrathstone, mostly driven by the new 19% Shadow Stone (with Thief the 16.4% Spell Crit only gives about 10% damage). To be clear this is considering full raid buffs, SS looks slightly better without Major Force and Major Courage.

So Sorrow seems to be performing better even on single target parses. Throw in AoE damage and maybe someone had less-than-perfect weaving and Sorrow pulls ahead even more. The only time I would consider using Spell Strat is if it was paired with Sorrow, in a fight where Siroria was not feasible and splash damage did not matter.

3. Last time I tested, the break even point between Elemental Weapon and Radiant Oppression (with near full Magicka) was right around 33-34% enemy health. I typically start a little earlier because beaming is easier to sustain, so it allows me to get to full resources before the beams become important. If I’m very low Magicka I may even start beaming around 37-38% even though they don’t hit very hard at that point. It’s a small temporary DPS loss to ensure I get the full 20% damage bonus when boss health gets to the low 30’s. Stating exactly 35% as a start point is probably an oversimplification, but in most cases it will work out pretty well.

Is there a different start point you’ve been using? I know you do thorough testing so I’d be interested to see your results.

If we go back to mini trials ill be playing magplar so just seeing what other ppl are doing:)
1. Makes sense
2. Damn that sucks
3. This one I disagree with. I just tested and at full magicka it doesnt seem to be a DPS gain above 25%.

Runefang

Front barring Siroria is something I haven't seen many people do. Do you find you get enough stacks with it front barred still?

WrathOfInnos

Runefang wrote: »

Front barring Siroria is something I haven't seen many people do. Do you find you get enough stacks with it front barred still?

@Runefang I like it front bar. For stationary fights you can still maintain an easy 100% uptime. For fights that require a lot of movement, having it on one bar allows more control over where the circle drops. You can prevent it from dropping in a location you don't want by being on back bar. You'll still lose the stacks pretty frequently, but with the combination of Minor Slayer and the extra Magicka bonus from perfected it still seems to outperform most sets (except in very high movement fights like vAS and vCR portal group).

WrathOfInnos

@hedna123b14_ESO Strange, I just tested again and got the same results as before. Oppression seems to overtake Elemental Weapon right around 34% enemy health.

Let's talk methodology, in case I'm doing something wrong. I did testing on a Robust Centurion, with Ele Drain and Channeled Focus for sustain. I did several tests of just Ele Weapon with weaving, each test spanning the 24s duration of ele drain, and noted the dps before it started to drop off from not hitting the target anymore. The average dps of just elemental weapon was 26k, with all the samples falling between 25k and 27k.

Then I brought the target down to 40% and started testing just beam and weaving, at full magicka, again in 24s intervals with ele drain and channeled focus. With the 51k centurion, I was able to get 1-2 data points per % health. I was seeing 24-25k dps from beam at 35% enemy health. At 34% enemy health this went up to right about 26k dps. Then at 33% enemy health it was 28-29k, definitely outperforming Elemental Weapon.

hedna123b14_ESO

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO Strange, I just tested again and got the same results as before. Oppression seems to overtake Elemental Weapon right around 34% enemy health.

Let's talk methodology, in case I'm doing something wrong. I did testing on a Robust Centurion, with Ele Drain and Channeled Focus for sustain. I did several tests of just Ele Weapon with weaving, each test spanning the 24s duration of ele drain, and noted the dps before it started to drop off from not hitting the target anymore. The average dps of just elemental weapon was 26k, with all the samples falling between 25k and 27k.

Then I brought the target down to 40% and started testing just beam and weaving, at full magicka, again in 24s intervals with ele drain and channeled focus. With the 51k centurion, I was able to get 1-2 data points per % health. I was seeing 24-25k dps from beam at 35% enemy health. At 34% enemy health this went up to right about 26k dps. Then at 33% enemy health it was 28-29k, definitely outperforming Elemental Weapon.

My testing was done as follows:
1. Took out the illuminate passive not to skew results due to the 10% spell damage buff.
2. Hitting the dummy with LA>Ele weapon from 45 to 35% noting its average damage.
3. Beam once from 35% and wait for the CMX report to look at each tick of the beam. Continue doing this till 25%
4. Take the max crit tick from each beam sample, multiply it by 3.
5. Keep doing that to each sample till I saw 3 beam ticks overtake the combined crit damage coming from 2 Ele Weapons and one LA. (I could have added 2/5ths of the psijic orb damage, but I didnt).
6. Since 1 radiant takes 2 GCDs (You lose 1 LA) and ticks 3 times, you have to compare the damage of 1 Radiant VS 1 LA and 2 Ele weapons.
7. I did not see 3 Radiant ticks overtake 2 Ele Weapon +1 LA until 25%

WrathOfInnos

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO Strange, I just tested again and got the same results as before. Oppression seems to overtake Elemental Weapon right around 34% enemy health.

Let's talk methodology, in case I'm doing something wrong. I did testing on a Robust Centurion, with Ele Drain and Channeled Focus for sustain. I did several tests of just Ele Weapon with weaving, each test spanning the 24s duration of ele drain, and noted the dps before it started to drop off from not hitting the target anymore. The average dps of just elemental weapon was 26k, with all the samples falling between 25k and 27k.

Then I brought the target down to 40% and started testing just beam and weaving, at full magicka, again in 24s intervals with ele drain and channeled focus. With the 51k centurion, I was able to get 1-2 data points per % health. I was seeing 24-25k dps from beam at 35% enemy health. At 34% enemy health this went up to right about 26k dps. Then at 33% enemy health it was 28-29k, definitely outperforming Elemental Weapon.

My testing was done as follows:
1. Took out the illuminate passive not to skew results due to the 10% spell damage buff.
2. Hitting the dummy with LA>Ele weapon from 45 to 35% noting its average damage.
3. Beam once from 35% and wait for the CMX report to look at each tick of the beam. Continue doing this till 25%
4. Take the max crit tick from each beam sample, multiply it by 3.
5. Keep doing that to each sample till I saw 3 beam ticks overtake the combined crit damage coming from 2 Ele Weapons and one LA. (I could have added 2/5ths of the psijic orb damage, but I didnt).
6. Since 1 radiant takes 2 GCDs (You lose 1 LA) and ticks 3 times, you have to compare the damage of 1 Radiant VS 1 LA and 2 Ele weapons.
7. I did not see 3 Radiant ticks overtake 2 Ele Weapon +1 LA until 25%

Interesting, that sounds like a good test. I cannot think of any explanation for the large difference in our results. I'll have to try a few more tests later.

T3hasiangod

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO Strange, I just tested again and got the same results as before. Oppression seems to overtake Elemental Weapon right around 34% enemy health.

Let's talk methodology, in case I'm doing something wrong. I did testing on a Robust Centurion, with Ele Drain and Channeled Focus for sustain. I did several tests of just Ele Weapon with weaving, each test spanning the 24s duration of ele drain, and noted the dps before it started to drop off from not hitting the target anymore. The average dps of just elemental weapon was 26k, with all the samples falling between 25k and 27k.

Then I brought the target down to 40% and started testing just beam and weaving, at full magicka, again in 24s intervals with ele drain and channeled focus. With the 51k centurion, I was able to get 1-2 data points per % health. I was seeing 24-25k dps from beam at 35% enemy health. At 34% enemy health this went up to right about 26k dps. Then at 33% enemy health it was 28-29k, definitely outperforming Elemental Weapon.

My testing was done as follows:
1. Took out the illuminate passive not to skew results due to the 10% spell damage buff.
2. Hitting the dummy with LA>Ele weapon from 45 to 35% noting its average damage.
3. Beam once from 35% and wait for the CMX report to look at each tick of the beam. Continue doing this till 25%
4. Take the max crit tick from each beam sample, multiply it by 3.
5. Keep doing that to each sample till I saw 3 beam ticks overtake the combined crit damage coming from 2 Ele Weapons and one LA. (I could have added 2/5ths of the psijic orb damage, but I didnt).
6. Since 1 radiant takes 2 GCDs (You lose 1 LA) and ticks 3 times, you have to compare the damage of 1 Radiant VS 1 LA and 2 Ele weapons.
7. I did not see 3 Radiant ticks overtake 2 Ele Weapon +1 LA until 25%

Interesting, that sounds like a good test. I cannot think of any explanation for the large difference in our results. I'll have to try a few more tests later.

The only thing I can think of that would explain the differences would be the added modifier for max magicka. But yes, Nos's methodology definitely checks out.

WrathOfInnos

T3hasiangod wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO Strange, I just tested again and got the same results as before. Oppression seems to overtake Elemental Weapon right around 34% enemy health.

Let's talk methodology, in case I'm doing something wrong. I did testing on a Robust Centurion, with Ele Drain and Channeled Focus for sustain. I did several tests of just Ele Weapon with weaving, each test spanning the 24s duration of ele drain, and noted the dps before it started to drop off from not hitting the target anymore. The average dps of just elemental weapon was 26k, with all the samples falling between 25k and 27k.

Then I brought the target down to 40% and started testing just beam and weaving, at full magicka, again in 24s intervals with ele drain and channeled focus. With the 51k centurion, I was able to get 1-2 data points per % health. I was seeing 24-25k dps from beam at 35% enemy health. At 34% enemy health this went up to right about 26k dps. Then at 33% enemy health it was 28-29k, definitely outperforming Elemental Weapon.

My testing was done as follows:
1. Took out the illuminate passive not to skew results due to the 10% spell damage buff.
2. Hitting the dummy with LA>Ele weapon from 45 to 35% noting its average damage.
3. Beam once from 35% and wait for the CMX report to look at each tick of the beam. Continue doing this till 25%
4. Take the max crit tick from each beam sample, multiply it by 3.
5. Keep doing that to each sample till I saw 3 beam ticks overtake the combined crit damage coming from 2 Ele Weapons and one LA. (I could have added 2/5ths of the psijic orb damage, but I didnt).
6. Since 1 radiant takes 2 GCDs (You lose 1 LA) and ticks 3 times, you have to compare the damage of 1 Radiant VS 1 LA and 2 Ele weapons.
7. I did not see 3 Radiant ticks overtake 2 Ele Weapon +1 LA until 25%

Interesting, that sounds like a good test. I cannot think of any explanation for the large difference in our results. I'll have to try a few more tests later.

The only thing I can think of that would explain the differences would be the added modifier for max magicka. But yes, Nos's methodology definitely checks out.

@hedna123b14_ESO @T3hasiangod Just did some more testing, and this is only getting stranger. Here is what I just tried:

1. Applied buffs Major and Minor Sorcery, did not have any other buffs, debuffs, or procs active
2. Tested elemental weapon and light attacks on dummy
3. Recorded max hit of each (carefully selecting crits that were not affected by Minor Vulnerability from Concussion)
- Elemental Weapon was 14504
- Light Attack was 7691
4. So 2X Ele Weapon + 1 Light Attack = 36699 damage. Each of the 3 beam ticks must therefore be 12233 damage when it surpasses Elemental Weapon.
5. With same buffs (Major and Minor Sorcery), began beaming target at 50%, and recorded each beam tick (on crits)
6. Observed beam ticks of 12360 and 12501 when target was at 42% health, higher than the required 12233.

I am now puzzled, because I don't believe beaming from 42% health is ideal.

Could either of you repeat this test and see if you get similar results? I was wearing Slimecraw + Moondancer (unprocced) + Mother's Sorrow on an Altmer for this test if you want to try to replicate numbers exactly.

bongtokin420insd16

interesting setup.

hedna123b14_ESO

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

T3hasiangod wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO Strange, I just tested again and got the same results as before. Oppression seems to overtake Elemental Weapon right around 34% enemy health.

Let's talk methodology, in case I'm doing something wrong. I did testing on a Robust Centurion, with Ele Drain and Channeled Focus for sustain. I did several tests of just Ele Weapon with weaving, each test spanning the 24s duration of ele drain, and noted the dps before it started to drop off from not hitting the target anymore. The average dps of just elemental weapon was 26k, with all the samples falling between 25k and 27k.

Then I brought the target down to 40% and started testing just beam and weaving, at full magicka, again in 24s intervals with ele drain and channeled focus. With the 51k centurion, I was able to get 1-2 data points per % health. I was seeing 24-25k dps from beam at 35% enemy health. At 34% enemy health this went up to right about 26k dps. Then at 33% enemy health it was 28-29k, definitely outperforming Elemental Weapon.

My testing was done as follows:
1. Took out the illuminate passive not to skew results due to the 10% spell damage buff.
2. Hitting the dummy with LA>Ele weapon from 45 to 35% noting its average damage.
3. Beam once from 35% and wait for the CMX report to look at each tick of the beam. Continue doing this till 25%
4. Take the max crit tick from each beam sample, multiply it by 3.
5. Keep doing that to each sample till I saw 3 beam ticks overtake the combined crit damage coming from 2 Ele Weapons and one LA. (I could have added 2/5ths of the psijic orb damage, but I didnt).
6. Since 1 radiant takes 2 GCDs (You lose 1 LA) and ticks 3 times, you have to compare the damage of 1 Radiant VS 1 LA and 2 Ele weapons.
7. I did not see 3 Radiant ticks overtake 2 Ele Weapon +1 LA until 25%

Interesting, that sounds like a good test. I cannot think of any explanation for the large difference in our results. I'll have to try a few more tests later.

The only thing I can think of that would explain the differences would be the added modifier for max magicka. But yes, Nos's methodology definitely checks out.

@hedna123b14_ESO @T3hasiangod Just did some more testing, and this is only getting stranger. Here is what I just tried:

1. Applied buffs Major and Minor Sorcery, did not have any other buffs, debuffs, or procs active
2. Tested elemental weapon and light attacks on dummy
3. Recorded max hit of each (carefully selecting crits that were not affected by Minor Vulnerability from Concussion)
- Elemental Weapon was 14504
- Light Attack was 7691
4. So 2X Ele Weapon + 1 Light Attack = 36699 damage. Each of the 3 beam ticks must therefore be 12233 damage when it surpasses Elemental Weapon.
5. With same buffs (Major and Minor Sorcery), began beaming target at 50%, and recorded each beam tick (on crits)
6. Observed beam ticks of 12360 and 12501 when target was at 42% health, higher than the required 12233.

I am now puzzled, because I don't believe beaming from 42% health is ideal.

Could either of you repeat this test and see if you get similar results? I was wearing Slimecraw + Moondancer (unprocced) + Mother's Sorrow on an Altmer for this test if you want to try to replicate numbers exactly.

Why was your light attack crit under 10k? Even with zero points into staff expert yours should be getting over 10k. I'll try your test.

hedna123b14_ESO

Ok so I just tested and indeed with the buffs you mentioned 40% seems to be the replacement point for Ele Weapon.....interesting...

Floliroy

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Ok so I just tested and indeed with the buffs you mentioned 40% seems to be the replacement point for Ele Weapon.....interesting...

Don't know if it can help, but i made a small addon that calculate the theoretical replacment points for different setups.
It take in count LA/sec depending on cast time of the spells, burning, concussion, glyph proc due to the LA, and lot more.

And so i got around 37% as replacement points for Ele Weapon.

(Addon = HowToBeam)

hedna123b14_ESO

Floliroy wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Ok so I just tested and indeed with the buffs you mentioned 40% seems to be the replacement point for Ele Weapon.....interesting...

Don't know if it can help, but i made a small addon that calculate the theoretical replacment points for different setups.
It take in count LA/sec depending on cast time of the spells, burning, concussion, glyph proc due to the LA, and lot more.

And so i got around 37% as replacement points for Ele Weapon.

(Addon = HowToBeam)

Thanks!

WrathOfInnos

@hedna123b14_ESO I think my LA hits were so low just because I was severely under pen in that test, no Ele drain, Crusher, Alkosh, etc.

I was thinking about it a little more, and even if beam starts to exceed Ele Weapon around 40%, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the beam rotation become better than the Ele weapon rotation. You had mentioned Spell Orb, which I’m sure affects it some. Also the Light Attacks in the pre-execute rotation will be Empowered by Barrage, but I don’t believe it’s worth using Barrage in execute (since there are only 5 LA per rotation instead of 8). Also Ele Weap procs several status effects, the Concussion won’t matter much in trials, but it will still give more Burning uptime than beam. In fact these status effects (primarily concussion) were most likely what was making the break even point appear to be around 34% in my initial test.

Hard to quantify of these factors, but it sounds like we can state pretty confidently that it is higher than my initial 34% and lower than the theoretical 40%.

@Floliroy Thanks for the contribution, your number of 37% sounds pretty reasonable, falling in the midpoint of the range I just stated. I’ll update the initial post.

Floliroy

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO I think my LA hits were so low just because I was severely under pen in that test, no Ele drain, Crusher, Alkosh, etc.

I was thinking about it a little more, and even if beam starts to exceed Ele Weapon around 40%, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the beam rotation become better than the Ele weapon rotation. You had mentioned Spell Orb, which I’m sure affects it some. Also the Light Attacks in the pre-execute rotation will be Empowered by Barrage, but I don’t believe it’s worth using Barrage in execute (since there are only 5 LA per rotation instead of 8). Also Ele Weap procs several status effects, the Concussion won’t matter much in trials, but it will still give more Burning uptime than beam. In fact these status effects (primarily concussion) were most likely what was making the break even point appear to be around 34% in my initial test.

Hard to quantify of these factors, but it sounds like we can state pretty confidently that it is higher than my initial 34% and lower than the theoretical 40%.

@Floliroy Thanks for the contribution, your number of 37% sounds pretty reasonable, falling in the midpoint of the range I just stated. I’ll update the initial post.

After 37% you can use radiant instead of ele weapon but you need to keep ALL dots up.

md3788

Floliroy wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@hedna123b14_ESO I think my LA hits were so low just because I was severely under pen in that test, no Ele drain, Crusher, Alkosh, etc.

I was thinking about it a little more, and even if beam starts to exceed Ele Weapon around 40%, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the beam rotation become better than the Ele weapon rotation. You had mentioned Spell Orb, which I’m sure affects it some. Also the Light Attacks in the pre-execute rotation will be Empowered by Barrage, but I don’t believe it’s worth using Barrage in execute (since there are only 5 LA per rotation instead of 8). Also Ele Weap procs several status effects, the Concussion won’t matter much in trials, but it will still give more Burning uptime than beam. In fact these status effects (primarily concussion) were most likely what was making the break even point appear to be around 34% in my initial test.

Hard to quantify of these factors, but it sounds like we can state pretty confidently that it is higher than my initial 34% and lower than the theoretical 40%.

@Floliroy Thanks for the contribution, your number of 37% sounds pretty reasonable, falling in the midpoint of the range I just stated. I’ll update the initial post.

After 37% you can use radiant instead of ele weapon but you need to keep ALL dots up.

@Floliroy at what point do you drop all dots and just go shards, blockade, beam?

WrathOfInnos

@Floliroy Just looked into swapping to beaming with keeping all DoTs up. This depends on whether the user is fully ranged or in melee range (so barrage will do damage, or if it is just being used to buff light attacks). For a fully ranged build, it is best to drop Barrage and Reflective for one additional beam when the boss reaches 28% health. If you are in melee range then this threshold drops significantly to 13% health. I consider this primarily a ranged build, and in most cases a boss will be near this 28% threshold 8s (one rotation) after starting beaming at 37%. I may try keeping Barrage and Reflective up on a boss with massive health (like St. Olms) until this 28% value, but I don't think the gain is significant enough to complicate the original post with an additional variation on the rotation for such a small health window. The other factor that is not really considered here is that the Barrage + Reflective rotation consumes more Magicka than the Radiant Oppression one, which means that it may drop your current Magicka level, causing beams to hit for lower values.

I also checked when to drop Blazing Spear and Blockade and go to a full beam rotation. Considering that doing so means losing the Berserker enchant, Burning Light procs, the Maelstrom staff light attack buff, and one light attack, the answer appears to be somewhere around 1-2% boss health. So practically speaking Blazing Spear and Blockade should both be kept up until the end of a fight, only dropping them if you think the boss will not be alive long enough to get the full 8s duration out of these 2 DoTs.

hedna123b14_ESO

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Floliroy Just looked into swapping to beaming with keeping all DoTs up. This depends on whether the user is fully ranged or in melee range (so barrage will do damage, or if it is just being used to buff light attacks). For a fully ranged build, it is best to drop Barrage and Reflective for one additional beam when the boss reaches 28% health. If you are in melee range then this threshold drops significantly to 13% health. I consider this primarily a ranged build, and in most cases a boss will be near this 28% threshold 8s (one rotation) after starting beaming at 37%. I may try keeping Barrage and Reflective up on a boss with massive health (like St. Olms) until this 28% value, but I don't think the gain is significant enough to complicate the original post with an additional variation on the rotation for such a small health window. The other factor that is not really considered here is that the Barrage + Reflective rotation consumes more Magicka than the Radiant Oppression one, which means that it may drop your current Magicka level, causing beams to hit for lower values.

I also checked when to drop Blazing Spear and Blockade and go to a full beam rotation. Considering that doing so means losing the Berserker enchant, Burning Light procs, the Maelstrom staff light attack buff, and one light attack, the answer appears to be somewhere around 1-2% boss health. So practically speaking Blazing Spear and Blockade should both be kept up until the end of a fight, only dropping them if you think the boss will not be alive long enough to get the full 8s duration out of these 2 DoTs.

Ok that one I tested quite a bit. I would definitely straight beam below 5%, but in most cases I beam 10% and below. I guarantee that not doing this is a dps loss.

Hotdog_23

Interesting read. Thanks to everyone for testing and sharing.

Side note it is a shame that jabs is a dps loss.

The_Lex

Thanks for this! I would never have thought about using Radiant Ward as my shield (over Harness Magicka, that is). Your rotation and ability bar set-up is a little different from mine, but I think I'll give it a try.

WrathOfInnos

The_Lex wrote: »

Thanks for this! I would never have thought about using Radiant Ward as my shield (over Harness Magicka, that is). Your rotation and ability bar set-up is a little different from mine, but I think I'll give it a try.

@The_Lex Yeah, it took me a while to realize that Radiant Ward is very close to the same strength as Harness now. And it fulfills the requirement for an Aedric Spear ability on each bar to give 10% Crit Dmg. It is 30% of Max Health instead of the 40% on Harness, but it is able to scale with Bastion CP so it goes up to 34% of Max Health with 34 points in Bastion. I don’t think I’d put points into Bastion for this reason alone, but if you have any plans to use other shields like Barrier or Iceheart it is an added benefit. Also the 10 and 30 point passives you pick up in that tree are very nice for rezzing allies.

Radiant is also a little cheaper to cast than Harness, if you’re not taking magic damage for the absorb effect. It scales up in strength based on how many enemies are nearby, and can be stronger than Harness if you’re surrounded. It deals a small amount of damage, which should be able to proc burning light too. Radiant also procs the Aedric Spear passive for 3s of Minor Protection, effectively increasing shield strength and reducing damage taken to your health by 8% if something breaks the shield.

carlos424

I'm on xbox, so unfortunately do not have combat metrics to give me information about the best setups for specific fights. However, I have a lot of experience with dummy parses. After hundreds and hundreds of parses, I can say that, for me, a front bar spell strat and body sororia with thief mundus is still hitting the hardest (60.1k 3mil) followed closely by front barring mechanical acuity and sororia body with shadow mundus (59.6k 3 mil). In 3rd place is front bar spell strat and master architect body with thief mundus (59.1K), and in fourth is front bar mother's sorrow and body sororia with shadow mundus (57.9k).
I have not done much testing with front barring sororia and body mother's sorrow. Could make for slightly higher results with some setups. My only offensive backbar skill is blockade so wouldnt make much difference in my setup.
I personally prefer to run master architect in most content using crescent sweep ultimate on back bar and either shooting star or destro ult on front.
My setup is is pretty standard, front bar: inner light, elemental weapon, blazing spear, solar barrage, radiant oppression (ult:destro/meteor) back bar: inner light, blockade, channeled focus, channeled acceleration, shield (ult:crescent sweep)

carlos424

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Floliroy Just looked into swapping to beaming with keeping all DoTs up. This depends on whether the user is fully ranged or in melee range (so barrage will do damage, or if it is just being used to buff light attacks). For a fully ranged build, it is best to drop Barrage and Reflective for one additional beam when the boss reaches 28% health. If you are in melee range then this threshold drops significantly to 13% health. I consider this primarily a ranged build, and in most cases a boss will be near this 28% threshold 8s (one rotation) after starting beaming at 37%. I may try keeping Barrage and Reflective up on a boss with massive health (like St. Olms) until this 28% value, but I don't think the gain is significant enough to complicate the original post with an additional variation on the rotation for such a small health window. The other factor that is not really considered here is that the Barrage + Reflective rotation consumes more Magicka than the Radiant Oppression one, which means that it may drop your current Magicka level, causing beams to hit for lower values.

I also checked when to drop Blazing Spear and Blockade and go to a full beam rotation. Considering that doing so means losing the Berserker enchant, Burning Light procs, the Maelstrom staff light attack buff, and one light attack, the answer appears to be somewhere around 1-2% boss health. So practically speaking Blazing Spear and Blockade should both be kept up until the end of a fight, only dropping them if you think the boss will not be alive long enough to get the full 8s duration out of these 2 DoTs.

Ok that one I tested quite a bit. I would definitely straight beam below 5%, but in most cases I beam 10% and below. I guarantee that not doing this is a dps loss.

Yes, in fact i would say to start beaming at 25%. Since most people are running at least one or two bloodthirsty jewelry, the extra damage to beaming is substantial. Just substitute 2 radiant oppressions for ele weapons and keep same rotation.

carlos424

carlos424 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Floliroy Just looked into swapping to beaming with keeping all DoTs up. This depends on whether the user is fully ranged or in melee range (so barrage will do damage, or if it is just being used to buff light attacks). For a fully ranged build, it is best to drop Barrage and Reflective for one additional beam when the boss reaches 28% health. If you are in melee range then this threshold drops significantly to 13% health. I consider this primarily a ranged build, and in most cases a boss will be near this 28% threshold 8s (one rotation) after starting beaming at 37%. I may try keeping Barrage and Reflective up on a boss with massive health (like St. Olms) until this 28% value, but I don't think the gain is significant enough to complicate the original post with an additional variation on the rotation for such a small health window. The other factor that is not really considered here is that the Barrage + Reflective rotation consumes more Magicka than the Radiant Oppression one, which means that it may drop your current Magicka level, causing beams to hit for lower values.

I also checked when to drop Blazing Spear and Blockade and go to a full beam rotation. Considering that doing so means losing the Berserker enchant, Burning Light procs, the Maelstrom staff light attack buff, and one light attack, the answer appears to be somewhere around 1-2% boss health. So practically speaking Blazing Spear and Blockade should both be kept up until the end of a fight, only dropping them if you think the boss will not be alive long enough to get the full 8s duration out of these 2 DoTs.

Ok that one I tested quite a bit. I would definitely straight beam below 5%, but in most cases I beam 10% and below. I guarantee that not doing this is a dps loss.

Yes, in fact i would say to start beaming at 25%. Since most people are running at least one or two bloodthirsty jewelry, the extra damage to beaming is substantial. Just substitute 2 radiant oppressions for ele weapons and keep same rotation.

edit: I didn't see the word "straight." Definitely straight jesus beam under 5%, and probably under 10%, depending on how much health the boss has left.