Stamblades in High MMR Matches

Thogard

Thoughts?

Urvoth

Well there’s like 3 good ones total at high mmr on PC NA and the rest are pretty bad/useless so I’d rather be on a team with any other class.

Unless the player is really good and deliberately plays around the team, it’s basically 3v8 if your team gets one.

Thogard

Urvoth wrote: »

Well there’s like 3 good ones total at high mmr on PC NA and the rest are pretty bad/useless so I’d rather be on a team with any other class.

Unless the player is really good and deliberately plays around the team, it’s basically 3v8 if your team gets one.

Follow up question: if we were to exclude ovenface from this, do you think those good stamblades would be even more effective on other classes like Stam sorc or stamden or stamplar?

wheem_ESO

In the chaotic matches with no real teamwork to speak of, Stamblades can be really brutal. But the more coordinated things get, the worse most Stamblade builds become...which is pretty much the exact opposite of other Stamina builds. I'd be interested to see more how more "brawler" oriented Stamblade builds could work out, but it seems like almost all of them just want to 1 or 2 shot someone with a big gank-burst, then stealth away. But when your opponents are playing as a team and using some anti-stealth tools, that style doesn't really work out too well.

TriangularChicken

Even in premade vs premade fights stam nbs can be very valuable, not gonna tell how to build one, people need to activate their own brain and theory craft. Just so much: I'm not talking about snipers or medium armor dodge builds.

Iskiab

I’ve tried making a stamblade brawler, so far it’s been horrible. It’s my first stam toon though and with pvp’s learning curve it’s been rough.

I tried 5x med 2x heavy. 5 7th legion, 5 vicious serpent, 2 troll king. 2 hander and bow.

I’m thinking 7th and fury with troll king, S&B and bow. Might be a way to make 5x medium work as a brawler but I don’t think there is if you want shadowy disguise.

I’m a bit discouraged atm so when I play an alt I’m preferring my magwarden. Did a BG today and was grouped with 3 nightblades on my warden. They’d get blown up so fast I might as well have been playing solo.

That’s the NB stereotype, so squishy they have to kite away or cloak, so you feel like you’re short on your team.

Vermethys

On PC EU, it's not really rare to find around 2-3 StamNBs per match, though they are often too squishy and contribute next to nothing to their teams. I've seen a couple of heavy brawler StamNBs, but it seems to me that the playstyle they are going for is much better suited for StamDKs and Stamdens.

So far, I think I've only seen two StamNBs that caught my attention -- one was obviously in medium armour, relied on heavy bleeds (definitely Master's axes), yet was very tanky (which makes me assume he was running sets like Impregnable or Fortified Brass + Troll King + something burst oriented). The other one used Silver Leash to pull targets from large fights and gank them lol. I personally think brawler StamDKs, Stamdens, and Stamsorcs are better for BGs.

Koolio

Iskiab wrote: »

I’ve tried making a stamblade brawler, so far it’s been horrible. It’s my first stam toon though and with pvp’s learning curve it’s been rough.

I tried 5x med 2x heavy. 5 7th legion, 5 vicious serpent, 2 troll king. 2 hander and bow.

I’m thinking 7th and fury with troll king, S&B and bow. Might be a way to make 5x medium work as a brawler but I don’t think there is if you want shadowy disguise.

I’m a bit discouraged atm so when I play an alt I’m preferring my magwarden. Did a BG today and was grouped with 3 nightblades on my warden. They’d get blown up so fast I might as well have been playing solo.

That’s the NB stereotype, so squishy they have to kite away or cloak, so you feel like you’re short on your team.

Check out this friend of mine. He plays a non-proc(literally no Bloodspawn no trolling no anything) no cloak Brawler Blade

It might give you some tips and tricks.

This might not be his best video but definitely showcases the style. Only person I’ve ever seen like this.

He also is really good at dueling


https://youtu.be/8QlUIDYvXCY

Urvoth

Thogard wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

Well there’s like 3 good ones total at high mmr on PC NA and the rest are pretty bad/useless so I’d rather be on a team with any other class.

Unless the player is really good and deliberately plays around the team, it’s basically 3v8 if your team gets one.

Follow up question: if we were to exclude ovenface from this, do you think those good stamblades would be even more effective on other classes like Stam sorc or stamden or stamplar?

Most likely, yeah. Stamblade is almost designed around not playing with a team, whereas the other stamina classes excel in a team environment. They just provide so much more overall team utility and have far better survivability and aoe dmg. It's a similar thing with magblades and other mag classes, they get better and synergize together in a structured group play scenario, but magblades do not. Wardens are probably the best example of this, as their class potential increases drastically in group play.

The only class that NB really synergizes well with is other NBs.

Alucardo

In general I don't have a lot of problems with them in BGs. The only exception is when I get double incapped by two perma cloak heroes at the same time.

ccmedaddy

There's like 1 stamblade main on my server that I'm happy to be in the same team with.

Everyone else, I wish I could vote kick lol.

Aurielle

wheem_ESO wrote: »

In the chaotic matches with no real teamwork to speak of, Stamblades can be really brutal. But the more coordinated things get, the worse most Stamblade builds become...which is pretty much the exact opposite of other Stamina builds. I'd be interested to see more how more "brawler" oriented Stamblade builds could work out, but it seems like almost all of them just want to 1 or 2 shot someone with a big gank-burst, then stealth away. But when your opponents are playing as a team and using some anti-stealth tools, that style doesn't really work out too well.

I’ve been trying to make a brawler blade work (to be a better team player), but it’s not easy. Running Reactive, Spriggans, and Troll King right now. DW and 2H. Stamblade just feels so much squishier than other stam classes — even with 5 heavy and two defensive sets. I have way more success with my stamplar and stamDK. I can understand why people gravitate to ganker builds on NBs, but I despise ganking and hate it when I have gankers on my team. Gankblades just can’t really compete at higher MMR tiers, esp. not if premades are involved. I’ll continue trying to make the brawler build work, but right now, it mostly just gets played once for the daily, and that’s it...

mursie

start with the class passives and it becomes clear why the NB class is relegated to ganking. Master assassin is 10% more weapon dmg when invisible. Your ward buff is 6 seconds long when you use cloak or surprise attack.

Compare that to your opponents with 20+ second armor buffs and defensive tools to either cleanse, reflect, or absorb range dmg. NB's are designed to quick hit from stealth. period. you can try to put a square peg into a round hole all you want, but that was the design baked into the passives and class.

embrace the individuality of the different classes and excel at what each class does best. in aoe clusterfcks of premade bg's...the NB is unfortunately not going to shine. in open world 1vX play, it could easily be crowned the king. And the reason for the disparity between the two formats and rankings is precisely due to the mechanics of the class - both good and bad.

brandonv516

mursie wrote: »

start with the class passives and it becomes clear why the NB class is relegated to ganking. Master assassin is 10% more weapon dmg when invisible. Your ward buff is 6 seconds long when you use cloak or surprise attack.

Compare that to your opponents with 20+ second armor buffs and defensive tools to either cleanse, reflect, or absorb range dmg. NB's are designed to quick hit from stealth. period. you can try to put a square peg into a round hole all you want, but that was the design baked into the passives and class.

embrace the individuality of the different classes and excel at what each class does best. in aoe clusterfcks of premade bg's...the NB is unfortunately not going to shine. in open world 1vX play, it could easily be crowned the king. And the reason for the disparity between the two formats and rankings is precisely due to the mechanics of the class - both good and bad.

Unfortunately this limits anyone who mains
a NB to participate in competitive BG matches and truly feel helpful.

The only advantage I have is people chase me down because I'm annoying and rude.

Basically you make them want to kill you and t-bag you so much that they become undisciplined and remove themselves from their group.

Iskiab

Yea, stamblades do well against those who don’t pvp well. Once someone knows the basics of pvp and stops playing independently from their team stamblades are subpar.

A lot of people like them because your average pvper isn’t very good, so you can do okay a lot of times. The last poll had them as the top pvp class lol.

Your average pvper tries to duel and do things solo, and complains about ‘zergs’ and other nonsense. Obviously their first MMO pvp game, or have seen Rambo too many times.

Slack

Thogard wrote: »

Thoughts?

My thought? All fine, but please on the other team(s)

ChunkyCat

Worthless.

Koensol

I don't mind the ones who have the mitigation to stay on the group without being 1 shot in a brawl, and use DB to assist in ult dumping the opposing teams. Their fear can actually be useful and a well timed incap can *** over some healers pretty bad as well.

The medium armor bowtards are 99% of the time absolutely worthless. They are never on the group, run away and cloak across the entire map after being hit by 1 light attack and basically leave your team a man down to take more focuss.

When I see a kitty nightblade going into crouch at the start of a game I can almost cry.

MaxJrFTW

They have no business being in high mmr games. You know there's a very high chance of losing if you get one in your team.

There are only 2 nightblades i hate playing against. Both of them run "cheese" builds. Zeromaz because he one shots you and he's very good at surviving despite running a 0 impen, all dmg build. The other one because he plays a disruptor type build in bgs, and he's too tanky to even think about killing him.

Nightblades are designed for ganking, and far too many nightblades stride away from their intended play style in order to become "brawlers" in high mmr bgs. How about building around your kit and doing what Zeromaz does? Play a different class if you want to be a brawler.

Aurielle

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Nightblades are designed for ganking, and far too many nightblades strive away from their intended play style in order to become "brawlers" in high mmr bgs. How about building around your kit and doing what Zeromaz does? Play a different class if you want to be a brawler.

I don’t disagree that there are way better classes for brawler builds, but I’d rather have a stamNB brawler on my team than the standard bowtard who snipes in a corner away from the team... I hate ganking and prefer being a team player, so I’ll continue trying out different brawler setups on my NB, thanks. Doing ok at the moment with Reactive, Spriggans, and TK/Velidreth.

MaxJrFTW

Aurielle wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Nightblades are designed for ganking, and far too many nightblades strive away from their intended play style in order to become "brawlers" in high mmr bgs. How about building around your kit and doing what Zeromaz does? Play a different class if you want to be a brawler.

I don’t disagree that there are way better classes for brawler builds, but I’d rather have a stamNB brawler on my team than the standard bowtard who snipes in a corner away from the team... I hate ganking and prefer being a team player, so I’ll continue trying out different brawler setups on my NB, thanks. Doing ok at the moment with Reactive, Spriggans, and TK/Velidreth.

That's the thing. You can't half ass it neither. If you're going to play a ganking class you have to go all in. The way i see it, if Zeromaz can be a proper high mmr sniper, then anyone can at least try to replicate what he does. Instead they try to do it while wearing troll king, impregnable, bone pirate, and full impen traits.

At the same time, playing against him makes you want to quit the game. Nightblades should stick to ganking in cyrodiil and stay out of bgs.

Aurielle

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Aurielle wrote: »

MaxJrFTW wrote: »

Nightblades are designed for ganking, and far too many nightblades strive away from their intended play style in order to become "brawlers" in high mmr bgs. How about building around your kit and doing what Zeromaz does? Play a different class if you want to be a brawler.

I don’t disagree that there are way better classes for brawler builds, but I’d rather have a stamNB brawler on my team than the standard bowtard who snipes in a corner away from the team... I hate ganking and prefer being a team player, so I’ll continue trying out different brawler setups on my NB, thanks. Doing ok at the moment with Reactive, Spriggans, and TK/Velidreth.

That's the thing. You can't half ass it neither. If you're going to play a ganking class you have to go all in. The way i see it, if Zeromaz can be a proper high mmr sniper, then anyone can at least try to replicate what he does. Instead they try to do it while wearing troll king, impregnable, bone pirate, and full impen traits.

At the same time, playing against him makes you want to quit the game. Nightblades should stick to ganking in cyrodiil and stay out of bgs.

I don’t think it’s fair to call NBs a “ganking” class. They gank exceptionally well, it’s true, and are the best class for ganking, but they can and do bring other stuff to the table. I know some excellent NB healers. And tanky dark cloak stamNB brawlers (which is what mine is built as) can be quite effective at shutting down enemy healers and causing mayhem with fears, debuffs, and whatnot. I’ve tried at points to do a cloakless and snipeless bow build on my stamNB, just for the challenge, but it’s only really effective against potatoes. The brawler can at least slug it out against all the frostdens and snareplars (esp. in Reactive).

At the end of the day, yes, there are more effective brawler options available. Still, I don’t think NBs should actively be discouraged from playing brawler builds — they do have their place in non-premade matches at higher MMR tiers.

Iskiab

Crazy thing is today I had a NB say in group that healers shouldn’t solo queue.

I bet he doesn’t like healers. Obviously mad because dps NBs are ineffective when they can’t leach by kill stealing in death matches. Usually NBs can do okay by kill stealing and trying to burst through a single player’s self healing and then running away. With a healer it doesn’t work, and they lack the defenses to do anything but die quickly.

Again not all but most. Some players are really good but they’d probably be even better on another class.

Thogard

Iskiab wrote: »

Crazy thing is today I had a NB say in group that healers shouldn’t solo queue.

I bet he doesn’t like healers. Obviously mad because dps NBs are ineffective when they can’t leach by kill stealing in death matches. Usually NBs can do okay by kill stealing and trying to burst through a single player’s self healing and then running away. With a healer it doesn’t work, and they lack the defenses to do anything but die quickly.

Again not all but most. Some players are really good but they’d probably be even better on another class.

He might have meant that it’s hard to solo queue as a healer because you can’t carry a team to a win in deathmatch as a healer. Preventing your team from dying is secondary, but getting deathblows is what wins matches

Iskiab

Thogard wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Crazy thing is today I had a NB say in group that healers shouldn’t solo queue.

I bet he doesn’t like healers. Obviously mad because dps NBs are ineffective when they can’t leach by kill stealing in death matches. Usually NBs can do okay by kill stealing and trying to burst through a single player’s self healing and then running away. With a healer it doesn’t work, and they lack the defenses to do anything but die quickly.

Again not all but most. Some players are really good but they’d probably be even better on another class.

He might have meant that it’s hard to solo queue as a healer because you can’t carry a team to a win in deathmatch as a healer. Preventing your team from dying is secondary, but getting deathblows is what wins matches

I solo queue and do just fine. Today was rough but I usually do well. I find what wins death matches is always having 4 people fight together since it’s the last hit that matters.

Thogard

Iskiab wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Crazy thing is today I had a NB say in group that healers shouldn’t solo queue.

I bet he doesn’t like healers. Obviously mad because dps NBs are ineffective when they can’t leach by kill stealing in death matches. Usually NBs can do okay by kill stealing and trying to burst through a single player’s self healing and then running away. With a healer it doesn’t work, and they lack the defenses to do anything but die quickly.

Again not all but most. Some players are really good but they’d probably be even better on another class.

He might have meant that it’s hard to solo queue as a healer because you can’t carry a team to a win in deathmatch as a healer. Preventing your team from dying is secondary, but getting deathblows is what wins matches

I solo queue and do just fine. Today was rough but I usually do well. I find what wins death matches is always having 4 people fight together since it’s the last hit that matters.

By using yourself as an example, you’ve put me in an awkward situation where i either have to say that I was wrong or question your play level.

Are you on PC NA?

KurtAngle2

They're literally useless in the current game of AoE/Slows/Root spam

Iskiab

Thogard wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Crazy thing is today I had a NB say in group that healers shouldn’t solo queue.

I bet he doesn’t like healers. Obviously mad because dps NBs are ineffective when they can’t leach by kill stealing in death matches. Usually NBs can do okay by kill stealing and trying to burst through a single player’s self healing and then running away. With a healer it doesn’t work, and they lack the defenses to do anything but die quickly.

Again not all but most. Some players are really good but they’d probably be even better on another class.

He might have meant that it’s hard to solo queue as a healer because you can’t carry a team to a win in deathmatch as a healer. Preventing your team from dying is secondary, but getting deathblows is what wins matches

I solo queue and do just fine. Today was rough but I usually do well. I find what wins death matches is always having 4 people fight together since it’s the last hit that matters.

By using yourself as an example, you’ve put me in an awkward situation where i either have to say that I was wrong or question your play level.

Are you on PC NA?

Yup, PC NA. Cethleann, NB healer.

wheem_ESO

Thogard wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Crazy thing is today I had a NB say in group that healers shouldn’t solo queue.

I bet he doesn’t like healers. Obviously mad because dps NBs are ineffective when they can’t leach by kill stealing in death matches. Usually NBs can do okay by kill stealing and trying to burst through a single player’s self healing and then running away. With a healer it doesn’t work, and they lack the defenses to do anything but die quickly.

Again not all but most. Some players are really good but they’d probably be even better on another class.

He might have meant that it’s hard to solo queue as a healer because you can’t carry a team to a win in deathmatch as a healer. Preventing your team from dying is secondary, but getting deathblows is what wins matches

I solo queue and do just fine. Today was rough but I usually do well. I find what wins death matches is always having 4 people fight together since it’s the last hit that matters.

By using yourself as an example, you’ve put me in an awkward situation where i either have to say that I was wrong or question your play level.

Are you on PC NA?

I think you're at least partially wrong. While a healer may not be able to carry a team of truly bad damage dealers, they can make a massive difference as long as their team's offensive players are at least decent. And of course some healers can and do load up executes, and can help their team secure kills (and do a better job of it than my Magicka Warden on offense, too /sadface).

Iskiab

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Crazy thing is today I had a NB say in group that healers shouldn’t solo queue.

I bet he doesn’t like healers. Obviously mad because dps NBs are ineffective when they can’t leach by kill stealing in death matches. Usually NBs can do okay by kill stealing and trying to burst through a single player’s self healing and then running away. With a healer it doesn’t work, and they lack the defenses to do anything but die quickly.

Again not all but most. Some players are really good but they’d probably be even better on another class.

He might have meant that it’s hard to solo queue as a healer because you can’t carry a team to a win in deathmatch as a healer. Preventing your team from dying is secondary, but getting deathblows is what wins matches

I solo queue and do just fine. Today was rough but I usually do well. I find what wins death matches is always having 4 people fight together since it’s the last hit that matters.

By using yourself as an example, you’ve put me in an awkward situation where i either have to say that I was wrong or question your play level.

Are you on PC NA?

I think you're at least partially wrong. While a healer may not be able to carry a team of truly bad damage dealers, they can make a massive difference as long as their team's offensive players are at least decent. And of course some healers can and do load up executes, and can help their team secure kills (and do a better job of it than my Magicka Warden on offense, too /sadface).

Think this is moreso a templar thing.

As a NB I tried using impale (ranged finisher) and was able to rack up about 5 KBs in one death match, but the team suffered for it. People can go from full health to dead in 2 GCDs with how bursty pvp is, I ended up dropping it.

Metemsycosis

Fear trap, soul siphon is all you get for nb utility.

High recoveries are good for cc, Traps, bombard, caltrops. And mobility.
10 % crit damage should be good when it's time to drop an ultimate.

And single target focus. Class gap closer melee spammable. Shade to get out.