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Problem with class specific buffs
JinMori
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So, there is a little problem with some class specific buffs, the problem is that some have more restrictions on it than others, meaning that in some cases, you won;t proc it at all, greatly reducing your usefulness in a group.
For example, stam dk, stam sorc and warden, the minor brut, minor prophecy, and toughness, proc if you use a skill from a skilline, where is the problem? The problem is that you don;t use those skillines to do dps, meaning that you will never be able to proc those abilities, especially on stamsorc and warden since there isn't a stam version of cristal fragments, and you pretty much never use a healing ability.
Compare this to nb passive which proc on crit damage, which is really easy to do, even on tank you will get a crit at least once every 20 sec, making this useful for every setup, or templar where it procs on using a dawns wrath ability, the difference here is that, you actually use those abilities even on healer or tank, which makes it much better compared to the other 3.
My point is, make the passives less restrictive.
For example, stam dk, stam sorc and warden, the minor brut, minor prophecy, and toughness, proc if you use a skill from a skilline, where is the problem? The problem is that you don;t use those skillines to do dps, meaning that you will never be able to proc those abilities, especially on stamsorc and warden since there isn't a stam version of cristal fragments, and you pretty much never use a healing ability.
Compare this to nb passive which proc on crit damage, which is really easy to do, even on tank you will get a crit at least once every 20 sec, making this useful for every setup, or templar where it procs on using a dawns wrath ability, the difference here is that, you actually use those abilities even on healer or tank, which makes it much better compared to the other 3.
My point is, make the passives less restrictive.
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Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭My point is, make the passives less restrictive.
how would you suggest zos do this?Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on March 10, 2019 2:53PM0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »My point is, make the passives less restrictive.
how would you suggest zos do this?
I'm thinking about it, but honestly, i shouldn't even have, i;m a customer, not a dev.
I find this to be pretty basic stuff, that your passives should be useful for tank dd or healer.
Just another disappointment from zos.
It just speaks for itself, how much they actually care.
At least the ones making the decisions.Edited by JinMori on March 10, 2019 3:02PM1 -
klowdy1✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »My point is, make the passives less restrictive.
how would you suggest zos do this?
I'm thinking about it, but honestly, i shouldn't even have, i;m a customer, not a dev.
I find this to be pretty basic stuff, that your passives should be useful for tank dd or healer.
Just another disappointment from zos.
It just speaks for itself, how much they actually care.
At least the ones making the decisions.
The devs did think about it, and what they came up with is what you are complaining about. There is no reason for them to change anything, unless they have a better idea brought to their attention. You do understand there are only so many devs, right? They are working on new content, working on fixing the (many) bugs and problems in the game, dealing with balance. This isn't a huge complaint among the playerbase, so its lower on their list, if it even exists on it. This could be exactly how they want the skills to work.2 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »My point is, make the passives less restrictive.
how would you suggest zos do this?
I'm thinking about it, but honestly, i shouldn't even have, i;m a customer, not a dev.
I find this to be pretty basic stuff, that your passives should be useful for tank dd or healer.
Just another disappointment from zos.
It just speaks for itself, how much they actually care.
At least the ones making the decisions.
The devs did think about it, and what they came up with is what you are complaining about. There is no reason for them to change anything, unless they have a better idea brought to their attention. You do understand there are only so many devs, right? They are working on new content, working on fixing the (many) bugs and problems in the game, dealing with balance. This isn't a huge complaint among the playerbase, so its lower on their list, if it even exists on it. This could be exactly how they want the skills to work.
it is a minor complaint, which is why i never really brought it up.
But this combined with a lot more problems becomes quite annoying, 1 small drop after another, and even small problems become quite annoying.
you can protect your precious devs all you want but at the end of the day, they don't care, they will still do whatever is more convenient to them, and what's more convenient is crown store and content, they do not care about balance, so people have to mass complain to get stuff, otherwise they never will do it, and probably never will, until the game absolutely requires it, but at that point it will probably be too late.
By the way, it;s not like it would take much, there are still bugs from years ago, and even things that could be easily solved, like meteor 11.8 sec duration, even though it should be 12, they don't have time to fix that? Give me a break. They don't have enough devs..... So many excuses.
It's obvious what their priority is.
Brought to their attention? You do realize that they should think of this for themselves, when exactly it become expected for customer to think for their game balance? If that is the case, where is my paycheck?
If i do it is purely out of goodwill, but it should not be a requirement.
Don't treat devs like they are friends, they might put a good face when they stream their game, but at the end of the day their first priority is profit, and that's fine, but if that is the case, hold them to a worker standard, not a friends.
If you have a class passive that isn't useful on all setups (dd, heal or tank), then that is a problem, it's self evident.Edited by JinMori on March 10, 2019 3:35PM1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »My point is, make the passives less restrictive.
how would you suggest zos do this?
I'm thinking about it, but honestly, i shouldn't even have, i;m a customer, not a dev.
I find this to be pretty basic stuff, that your passives should be useful for tank dd or healer.
Just another disappointment from zos.
It just speaks for itself, how much they actually care.
At least the ones making the decisions.
The devs did think about it, and what they came up with is what you are complaining about. There is no reason for them to change anything, unless they have a better idea brought to their attention. You do understand there are only so many devs, right? They are working on new content, working on fixing the (many) bugs and problems in the game, dealing with balance. This isn't a huge complaint among the playerbase, so its lower on their list, if it even exists on it. This could be exactly how they want the skills to work.
Could've fooled me. ^^
And there isn't a huge complaint from the player base because - just as an example - sDK DD is an endangered species, there aren't a lot of people maining those to voice their concern in the feedback thread. It doesn't mean the class is in good place, it simply means people have lost all hope for it to ever get into good place and moved to other classes instead. And o-of course, pinning Minor Brutality onto a tank toolkit helps tanking diversity in the game, as if DK tanks already weren't the runaway meta... Exactly how they want the skill to work. Marvel of balance.Edited by John_Falstaff on March 10, 2019 3:37PM3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I see DKs a lot, they’re in a good place right now.
People play classes that they enjoy the style moreso then the strength of the actual class from my experience. That’s the reason there are so many bow builds these days even though it’s a weak play style. People prefer to try and not die from being elusive and range rather then getting in the thick of things, even if it’s weak.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I see DKs a lot, they’re in a good place right now.
People play classes that they enjoy the style moreso then the strength of the actual class from my experience. That’s the reason there are so many bow builds these days even though it’s a weak play style. People prefer to try and not die from being elusive and range rather then getting in the thick of things, even if it’s weak.
You are missing the point, i'm not talking about dps here, and not even about dk specifically.0 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I see DKs a lot, they’re in a good place right now.
People play classes that they enjoy the style moreso then the strength of the actual class from my experience. That’s the reason there are so many bow builds these days even though it’s a weak play style. People prefer to try and not die from being elusive and range rather then getting in the thick of things, even if it’s weak.
This is unrelated to the OP. They are specifically speaking to the nature of the class specifc minors and how some are role agnostic whereas others are completely absent uness you are tanking or healing or intentionally gimping your build. The minors were designed as unique class buffs to incentivize class veriety in group makeups. However unless the warden in a group is healing, its unlikely the entire group will benefit from minor toughness for example.
However to the point, I believe the issue is not necessarily that bad, and partially in place to incentivize non dps roles as that is generally the go to. If a class cant tank or heal effectively its whatever, but when they cant dps effectively, all hell breaks loose. Some of these buffs have more restrictions because the devs want to arbitrarily incentivize non dps roles for particular classes *shrug. However i do realize the irony in that belief considering wardens track record in the pve dps department.Edited by exeeter702 on March 10, 2019 4:29PM0 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm thinking about it, but honestly, i shouldn't even have, i;m a customer, not a dev.
I find this to be pretty basic stuff, that your passives should be useful for tank dd or healer.
If I’m understanding all this correctly:
1. You don’t like how class-specific buffs are different between the classes ... even though the devs have given each class different buffs for uniqueness and flavor.
2. Your approach is to give every class buffs that benefit all roles ... reducing the uniqueness and flavor to a vanilla setup where class identity is lost. In turn, making a player’s choice of which class to play irrelevant.
3. You have absolutely no suggestions of how you propose to change class-specific buffs. In the place of those suggestions is just a session on bashing the devs.
Have I summarized this thread accurately?3 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »I see DKs a lot, they’re in a good place right now.
People play classes that they enjoy the style moreso then the strength of the actual class from my experience. That’s the reason there are so many bow builds these days even though it’s a weak play style. People prefer to try and not die from being elusive and range rather then getting in the thick of things, even if it’s weak.
This is unrelated to the OP. They are specifically speaking to the nature of the class specifc minors and how some are role agnostic whereas others are completely absent uness you are tanking or healing or intentionally gimping your build.
However to the point, I believe it the issue is not nesely that bad, and partially in place to incentivize non dps roles as that is generally the go to. If a class cant tank or heal effectively its whatever, but when they cant dps effectively, all hell breaks loose. Some of these buffs have more restrictions because the devs want to arbitrarily incentivize non dps roles for particular classes *shrug. However i do realize the irony in that belief considering wardens track record in the pve dps department.
That's a bit of a strawman, because i never talked specifically about dd, i said dd heal or tank, i just used dd as an example, because that;s what i mostly do0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »I'm thinking about it, but honestly, i shouldn't even have, i;m a customer, not a dev.
I find this to be pretty basic stuff, that your passives should be useful for tank dd or healer.
If I’m understanding all this correctly:
1. You don’t like how class-specific buffs are different between the classes ... even though the devs have given each class different buffs for uniqueness and flavor.
2. Your approach is to give every class buffs that benefit all roles ... reducing the uniqueness and flavor to a vanilla setup where class identity is lost. In turn, making a player’s choice of which class to play irrelevant.
3. You have absolutely no suggestions of how you propose to change class-specific buffs. In the place of those suggestions is just a session on bashing the devs.
Have I summarized this thread accurately?
No.
1 is just completely wrong, that is not what i suggested.
2 nd, it;s not about changing the passives, only to change the requirements of some of those passives to proc so that all roles can benefit from and proc it.
3rd, it's not my job to suggest what devs should have already done, call it bashing, i really don't care, keep protecting your dear devs, i'm sure it;s gonna work out in your favor.
I never offended any of the devs, i just said things that are self evident, it;s self evident that there are still bugs from years ago in this game, even ones that are easily solvable, it's self evident that some passives are just useless for some setups, but if you wanna call basing, pointing out the flaws, that haven't been handled since eons ago, then fine, your "opinion" is 100% worthless to me, because it's clear that you haven;t really thought this out.
I am not here to farm brownie points about how accepting i am about devs repeated mistakes, i am here to point out the flaws, so i will do just that.
And while i recognize that this is a minor flaw, it is still a flaw nonetheless, and here i just talked about class specific passives like minor brut, but there are other class passives are just 100% useless for some specs, so that is also a problem.Edited by JinMori on March 10, 2019 4:44PM1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »I see DKs a lot, they’re in a good place right now.
People play classes that they enjoy the style moreso then the strength of the actual class from my experience. That’s the reason there are so many bow builds these days even though it’s a weak play style. People prefer to try and not die from being elusive and range rather then getting in the thick of things, even if it’s weak.
This is unrelated to the OP. They are specifically speaking to the nature of the class specifc minors and how some are role agnostic whereas others are completely absent uness you are tanking or healing or intentionally gimping your build.
However to the point, I believe it the issue is not nesely that bad, and partially in place to incentivize non dps roles as that is generally the go to. If a class cant tank or heal effectively its whatever, but when they cant dps effectively, all hell breaks loose. Some of these buffs have more restrictions because the devs want to arbitrarily incentivize non dps roles for particular classes *shrug. However i do realize the irony in that belief considering wardens track record in the pve dps department.
That's a bit of a strawman, because i never talked specifically about dd, i said dd heal or tank, i just used dd as an example, because that;s what i mostly do
Not really a strawman as the second half was more of a broad suggestion that was framed around dps. I understand your point. I was mearly suggesting that zos locked some away from being role agnostic for the sake of trying to push certian classes into roles that are less popular for said class. Nb and templars cover it regardless, whereas wardens have to healers or maube tanks to get minor tough out group wide, stam sorc is the only spec that will have issue getting minor prophecy out, and dk tanks and healers (the later far easier to maintain) are doing minor brut, not dk dps.
Specs that dont normally provide their minor buff to group
Stam dk dps
Mag dk dps
Stam sorc dps
Magden dps
Stamden dps
Warden tank (?)
Dps is the most dominant, popular and desired role to play. The devs intention could have easily been to incentivize class role spread. Opting for a non dk tank? Might want to pick up a dk healer. No mag sorcs in the group? Sorc tank could cover that.
That is just an idea of what was possibly going through their heads. Obviously in the real game, balance is an issue and class/role representation still leaves a lot to be desired.
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JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I see DKs a lot, they’re in a good place right now.
People play classes that they enjoy the style moreso then the strength of the actual class from my experience. That’s the reason there are so many bow builds these days even though it’s a weak play style. People prefer to try and not die from being elusive and range rather then getting in the thick of things, even if it’s weak.
This is unrelated to the OP. They are specifically speaking to the nature of the class specifc minors and how some are role agnostic whereas others are completely absent uness you are tanking or healing or intentionally gimping your build.
However to the point, I believe it the issue is not nesely that bad, and partially in place to incentivize non dps roles as that is generally the go to. If a class cant tank or heal effectively its whatever, but when they cant dps effectively, all hell breaks loose. Some of these buffs have more restrictions because the devs want to arbitrarily incentivize non dps roles for particular classes *shrug. However i do realize the irony in that belief considering wardens track record in the pve dps department.
That's a bit of a strawman, because i never talked specifically about dd, i said dd heal or tank, i just used dd as an example, because that;s what i mostly do
Not really a strawman as the second half was more of a broad suggestion that was framed around dps. I understand your point. I was mearly suggesting that zos locked some away from being role agnostic for the sake of trying to push certian classes into roles that are less popular for said class. Nb and templars cover it regardless, whereas wardens have to healers or maube tanks to get minor tough out group wide, stam sorc is the only spec that will have issue getting minor prophecy out, and dk tanks and healers (the later far easier to maintain) are doing minor brut, not dk dps.
Specs that dont normally provide their minor buff to group
Stam dk dps
Mag dk dps
Stam sorc dps
Magden dps
Stamden dps
Warden tank (?)
Dps is the most dominant, popular and desired role to play. The devs intention could have easily been to incentivize class role spread. Opting for a non dk tank? Might want to pick up a dk healer. No mag sorcs in the group? Sorc tank could cover that.
That is just an idea of what was possibly going through their heads. Obviously in the real game, balance is an issue and class/role representation still leaves a lot to be desired.
I see.
Yea that could be what they thought but i definitely disagree with it, if that was their intention, passives should be useful regardless of which role you are using.
And honestly, there are much better ways to incentivise using other class combos then restriction, restriction is just a bad idea, because people will still use the best combo, you are not changing people mind by restricting how passives works, if that's what they think.
thanks for clarifying.Edited by JinMori on March 10, 2019 7:03PM0 -
klowdy1✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »My point is, make the passives less restrictive.
how would you suggest zos do this?
I'm thinking about it, but honestly, i shouldn't even have, i;m a customer, not a dev.
I find this to be pretty basic stuff, that your passives should be useful for tank dd or healer.
Just another disappointment from zos.
It just speaks for itself, how much they actually care.
At least the ones making the decisions.
The devs did think about it, and what they came up with is what you are complaining about. There is no reason for them to change anything, unless they have a better idea brought to their attention. You do understand there are only so many devs, right? They are working on new content, working on fixing the (many) bugs and problems in the game, dealing with balance. This isn't a huge complaint among the playerbase, so its lower on their list, if it even exists on it. This could be exactly how they want the skills to work.
it is a minor complaint, which is why i never really brought it up.
But this combined with a lot more problems becomes quite annoying, 1 small drop after another, and even small problems become quite annoying.
you can protect your precious devs all you want but at the end of the day, they don't care, they will still do whatever is more convenient to them, and what's more convenient is crown store and content, they do not care about balance, so people have to mass complain to get stuff, otherwise they never will do it, and probably never will, until the game absolutely requires it, but at that point it will probably be too late.
By the way, it;s not like it would take much, there are still bugs from years ago, and even things that could be easily solved, like meteor 11.8 sec duration, even though it should be 12, they don't have time to fix that? Give me a break. They don't have enough devs..... So many excuses.
It's obvious what their priority is.
Brought to their attention? You do realize that they should think of this for themselves, when exactly it become expected for customer to think for their game balance? If that is the case, where is my paycheck?
If i do it is purely out of goodwill, but it should not be a requirement.
Don't treat devs like they are friends, they might put a good face when they stream their game, but at the end of the day their first priority is profit, and that's fine, but if that is the case, hold them to a worker standard, not a friends.
If you have a class passive that isn't useful on all setups (dd, heal or tank), then that is a problem, it's self evident.
I see you took offense to my comment for some reason. How would they know there is an issue. You're the first person I've ever seen complain about this, so in their minds, everything is going well, in this regard. Doctors dont preemptively fix cancer, mechanics dont rebuild a transmission unless they find a problem, I dont pull boards on a wooden boat without knowing of rot. Maybe they'll look into it now, but how would they have known to think about it before? You shouldn't get a paycheck for being captain hindsight, and offering no solution.1 -
John_Falstaff✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭@klowdy1 , thing is, ZOS isn't asking for solutions. Sure, we do discuss possible solutions here, but when talk's about ZOS, they already stressed it many times that even from class reps, they don't want to hear any concrete solutions, they want to hear pain points only, and they will decide how to solve those pain points. So right here and now, we're vocalizing pain points - the class-specific buffs are not role-agnostic and not every role can bring them to the group with equal ease. Reps can deliver those pain points to ZOS during meetings, and it's up to ZOS how they want to resolve that.1 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »My point is, make the passives less restrictive.
how would you suggest zos do this?
I'm thinking about it, but honestly, i shouldn't even have, i;m a customer, not a dev.
I find this to be pretty basic stuff, that your passives should be useful for tank dd or healer.
Just another disappointment from zos.
It just speaks for itself, how much they actually care.
At least the ones making the decisions.
The devs did think about it, and what they came up with is what you are complaining about. There is no reason for them to change anything, unless they have a better idea brought to their attention. You do understand there are only so many devs, right? They are working on new content, working on fixing the (many) bugs and problems in the game, dealing with balance. This isn't a huge complaint among the playerbase, so its lower on their list, if it even exists on it. This could be exactly how they want the skills to work.
it is a minor complaint, which is why i never really brought it up.
But this combined with a lot more problems becomes quite annoying, 1 small drop after another, and even small problems become quite annoying.
you can protect your precious devs all you want but at the end of the day, they don't care, they will still do whatever is more convenient to them, and what's more convenient is crown store and content, they do not care about balance, so people have to mass complain to get stuff, otherwise they never will do it, and probably never will, until the game absolutely requires it, but at that point it will probably be too late.
By the way, it;s not like it would take much, there are still bugs from years ago, and even things that could be easily solved, like meteor 11.8 sec duration, even though it should be 12, they don't have time to fix that? Give me a break. They don't have enough devs..... So many excuses.
It's obvious what their priority is.
Brought to their attention? You do realize that they should think of this for themselves, when exactly it become expected for customer to think for their game balance? If that is the case, where is my paycheck?
If i do it is purely out of goodwill, but it should not be a requirement.
Don't treat devs like they are friends, they might put a good face when they stream their game, but at the end of the day their first priority is profit, and that's fine, but if that is the case, hold them to a worker standard, not a friends.
If you have a class passive that isn't useful on all setups (dd, heal or tank), then that is a problem, it's self evident.
I see you took offense to my comment for some reason. How would they know there is an issue. You're the first person I've ever seen complain about this, so in their minds, everything is going well, in this regard. Doctors dont preemptively fix cancer, mechanics dont rebuild a transmission unless they find a problem, I dont pull boards on a wooden boat without knowing of rot. Maybe they'll look into it now, but how would they have known to think about it before? You shouldn't get a paycheck for being captain hindsight, and offering no solution.
Why do people instantly assume you're offended when you criticize their point of view? Offended is quite a term, it means you are extremely annoyed by a behavior.
Look, you can think whatever you want, i just pointed out a few things i thought, that's all.
And also, yea, i am not a dev, so if i provide "solutions" it's all out of goodwill, but i do not have to do that, because it's not my job, it shouldn't be the customer job to think how to fix their game for them, if it was, then i would expect a paycheck, because i would be actively contributing to the game, now, of course they don;t do that, because they use the customer love of the game as a way to ease their work, and discover new things they might have missed, this is why i said devs are not your friends, and you should not treat them as such.
They might put a good face on the stream, but never, treat them as friends, treat them as you would any other professional, because thet's what they are.Edited by JinMori on March 11, 2019 3:52PM2 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭/Signed
I don't understand the backlash. You don't need to provide a solution. You bring up a valid concern that I'm sure they must be aware of. I'm pretty annoyed I can't provide any group support as a stam sorc, but stam NB and Templar can effectively and effortlessly do that as any role.
With the recent change to minor group buffs being bumped up from 5% crit to 10% crit and 5% dmg to 10% dmg I would of expected them to address this issue, but they didn't.
Even Wardens buff themselves with minor toughness with the use of anything in the companion tree.
The only hope I have is that they plan on balancing skill lines for the chapter release. For example: as a stam sorc, maybe there is a stam morph version of crystal frags that would help utilize minor prophecy.. Somewhat a pipe dream, but it could be the reason they didn't touch HOW these minor buffs are proc'ed.
Please refrain from replying to me with "but Minor prophecy doesn't help stam sorc". That isn't my point, I want to be able to help my group.
Restrictions are not the way to make people play different roles and if that were true, why is it so easy for Templar, Warden and NB to proc their minor buffs, it's lack of foresight and design.1 -
Oakmontowls_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I see DKs a lot, they’re in a good place right now.
People play classes that they enjoy the style moreso then the strength of the actual class from my experience. That’s the reason there are so many bow builds these days even though it’s a weak play style. People prefer to try and not die from being elusive and range rather then getting in the thick of things, even if it’s weak.
This is unrelated to the OP. They are specifically speaking to the nature of the class specifc minors and how some are role agnostic whereas others are completely absent uness you are tanking or healing or intentionally gimping your build.
However to the point, I believe it the issue is not nesely that bad, and partially in place to incentivize non dps roles as that is generally the go to. If a class cant tank or heal effectively its whatever, but when they cant dps effectively, all hell breaks loose. Some of these buffs have more restrictions because the devs want to arbitrarily incentivize non dps roles for particular classes *shrug. However i do realize the irony in that belief considering wardens track record in the pve dps department.
That's a bit of a strawman, because i never talked specifically about dd, i said dd heal or tank, i just used dd as an example, because that;s what i mostly do
Not really a strawman as the second half was more of a broad suggestion that was framed around dps. I understand your point. I was mearly suggesting that zos locked some away from being role agnostic for the sake of trying to push certian classes into roles that are less popular for said class. Nb and templars cover it regardless, whereas wardens have to healers or maube tanks to get minor tough out group wide, stam sorc is the only spec that will have issue getting minor prophecy out, and dk tanks and healers (the later far easier to maintain) are doing minor brut, not dk dps.
Specs that dont normally provide their minor buff to group
Stam dk dps
Mag dk dps
Stam sorc dps
Magden dps
Stamden dps
Warden tank (?)
Dps is the most dominant, popular and desired role to play. The devs intention could have easily been to incentivize class role spread. Opting for a non dk tank? Might want to pick up a dk healer. No mag sorcs in the group? Sorc tank could cover that.
That is just an idea of what was possibly going through their heads. Obviously in the real game, balance is an issue and class/role representation still leaves a lot to be desired.
You forgot:
Sorc healers
Sorc tanks
Templar Tanks
Pet sorcs
Also any warden spec that can't heal everyone in the entire group0 -
klowdy1✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »My point is, make the passives less restrictive.
how would you suggest zos do this?
I'm thinking about it, but honestly, i shouldn't even have, i;m a customer, not a dev.
I find this to be pretty basic stuff, that your passives should be useful for tank dd or healer.
Just another disappointment from zos.
It just speaks for itself, how much they actually care.
At least the ones making the decisions.
The devs did think about it, and what they came up with is what you are complaining about. There is no reason for them to change anything, unless they have a better idea brought to their attention. You do understand there are only so many devs, right? They are working on new content, working on fixing the (many) bugs and problems in the game, dealing with balance. This isn't a huge complaint among the playerbase, so its lower on their list, if it even exists on it. This could be exactly how they want the skills to work.
it is a minor complaint, which is why i never really brought it up.
But this combined with a lot more problems becomes quite annoying, 1 small drop after another, and even small problems become quite annoying.
you can protect your precious devs all you want but at the end of the day, they don't care, they will still do whatever is more convenient to them, and what's more convenient is crown store and content, they do not care about balance, so people have to mass complain to get stuff, otherwise they never will do it, and probably never will, until the game absolutely requires it, but at that point it will probably be too late.
By the way, it;s not like it would take much, there are still bugs from years ago, and even things that could be easily solved, like meteor 11.8 sec duration, even though it should be 12, they don't have time to fix that? Give me a break. They don't have enough devs..... So many excuses.
It's obvious what their priority is.
Brought to their attention? You do realize that they should think of this for themselves, when exactly it become expected for customer to think for their game balance? If that is the case, where is my paycheck?
If i do it is purely out of goodwill, but it should not be a requirement.
Don't treat devs like they are friends, they might put a good face when they stream their game, but at the end of the day their first priority is profit, and that's fine, but if that is the case, hold them to a worker standard, not a friends.
If you have a class passive that isn't useful on all setups (dd, heal or tank), then that is a problem, it's self evident.
I see you took offense to my comment for some reason. How would they know there is an issue. You're the first person I've ever seen complain about this, so in their minds, everything is going well, in this regard. Doctors dont preemptively fix cancer, mechanics dont rebuild a transmission unless they find a problem, I dont pull boards on a wooden boat without knowing of rot. Maybe they'll look into it now, but how would they have known to think about it before? You shouldn't get a paycheck for being captain hindsight, and offering no solution.
Why do people instantly assume you're offended when you criticize their point of view? Offended is quite a term, it means you are extremely annoyed by a behavior.
Look, you can think whatever you want, i just pointed out a few things i thought, that's all.
And also, yea, i am not a dev, so if i provide "solutions" it's all out of goodwill, but i do not have to do that, because it's not my job, it shouldn't be the customer job to think how to fix their game for them, if it was, then i would expect a paycheck, because i would be actively contributing to the game, now, of course they don;t do that, because they use the customer love of the game as a way to ease their work, and discover new things they might have missed, this is why i said devs are not your friends, and you should not treat them as such.
They might put a good face on the stream, but never, treat them as friends, treat them as you would any other professional, because thet's what they are.
I assumed you were mad because you tried calling me out for defending ZOS, when all I'm trying to do is point out the other side. People tend to imagine their problem should always be somewhere on the radar, when that isn't always the case. You're acting like ZOS should just know things, but they have more to think about than this very small issue. I was also giving the counterpoint that perhaps this is how they want things to work. I'm also not pretending they are my friends, I'm acting as if they are humans. Respect doesn't equal the delusion of friendship.1 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »I see DKs a lot, they’re in a good place right now.
People play classes that they enjoy the style moreso then the strength of the actual class from my experience. That’s the reason there are so many bow builds these days even though it’s a weak play style. People prefer to try and not die from being elusive and range rather then getting in the thick of things, even if it’s weak.
This is unrelated to the OP. They are specifically speaking to the nature of the class specifc minors and how some are role agnostic whereas others are completely absent uness you are tanking or healing or intentionally gimping your build.
However to the point, I believe it the issue is not nesely that bad, and partially in place to incentivize non dps roles as that is generally the go to. If a class cant tank or heal effectively its whatever, but when they cant dps effectively, all hell breaks loose. Some of these buffs have more restrictions because the devs want to arbitrarily incentivize non dps roles for particular classes *shrug. However i do realize the irony in that belief considering wardens track record in the pve dps department.
That's a bit of a strawman, because i never talked specifically about dd, i said dd heal or tank, i just used dd as an example, because that;s what i mostly do
Not really a strawman as the second half was more of a broad suggestion that was framed around dps. I understand your point. I was mearly suggesting that zos locked some away from being role agnostic for the sake of trying to push certian classes into roles that are less popular for said class. Nb and templars cover it regardless, whereas wardens have to healers or maube tanks to get minor tough out group wide, stam sorc is the only spec that will have issue getting minor prophecy out, and dk tanks and healers (the later far easier to maintain) are doing minor brut, not dk dps.
Specs that dont normally provide their minor buff to group
Stam dk dps
Mag dk dps
Stam sorc dps
Magden dps
Stamden dps
Warden tank (?)
Dps is the most dominant, popular and desired role to play. The devs intention could have easily been to incentivize class role spread. Opting for a non dk tank? Might want to pick up a dk healer. No mag sorcs in the group? Sorc tank could cover that.
That is just an idea of what was possibly going through their heads. Obviously in the real game, balance is an issue and class/role representation still leaves a lot to be desired.
You forgot:
Sorc healers
Sorc tanks
Templar Tanks
Pet sorcs
Also any warden spec that can't heal everyone in the entire group
No i didnt.
Sorc healers can easily fit frags into there bar for additional damage depending on the content, without harming there ability to heal.
Sorc tanks use encase for trash mob control, and some builds even use dark deal / exchange.
Templar tanks is bit of a toss up yes, but its still possible for them to make use of the passive without inherently breaking their build, even if its via the occasional minor fracture potl or the new perma empower.
Pet sorcs should still be using frags.
And i already listed both dps specs of warden as neither mag or stam wardens generally will slot an aoe heal when their main focus is on dps. The only caveat here is lotus but the application range of that is very minor. The ? Next to warden tanks was for the fact that its possible for a warden tank to slot an aoe heal and still not reduce their tanking ability since tanks generally have more flex spots than dps loadouts do.Edited by exeeter702 on March 11, 2019 10:31PM0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »My point is, make the passives less restrictive.
how would you suggest zos do this?
I'm thinking about it, but honestly, i shouldn't even have, i;m a customer, not a dev.
I find this to be pretty basic stuff, that your passives should be useful for tank dd or healer.
Just another disappointment from zos.
It just speaks for itself, how much they actually care.
At least the ones making the decisions.
The devs did think about it, and what they came up with is what you are complaining about. There is no reason for them to change anything, unless they have a better idea brought to their attention. You do understand there are only so many devs, right? They are working on new content, working on fixing the (many) bugs and problems in the game, dealing with balance. This isn't a huge complaint among the playerbase, so its lower on their list, if it even exists on it. This could be exactly how they want the skills to work.
it is a minor complaint, which is why i never really brought it up.
But this combined with a lot more problems becomes quite annoying, 1 small drop after another, and even small problems become quite annoying.
you can protect your precious devs all you want but at the end of the day, they don't care, they will still do whatever is more convenient to them, and what's more convenient is crown store and content, they do not care about balance, so people have to mass complain to get stuff, otherwise they never will do it, and probably never will, until the game absolutely requires it, but at that point it will probably be too late.
By the way, it;s not like it would take much, there are still bugs from years ago, and even things that could be easily solved, like meteor 11.8 sec duration, even though it should be 12, they don't have time to fix that? Give me a break. They don't have enough devs..... So many excuses.
It's obvious what their priority is.
Brought to their attention? You do realize that they should think of this for themselves, when exactly it become expected for customer to think for their game balance? If that is the case, where is my paycheck?
If i do it is purely out of goodwill, but it should not be a requirement.
Don't treat devs like they are friends, they might put a good face when they stream their game, but at the end of the day their first priority is profit, and that's fine, but if that is the case, hold them to a worker standard, not a friends.
If you have a class passive that isn't useful on all setups (dd, heal or tank), then that is a problem, it's self evident.
I see you took offense to my comment for some reason. How would they know there is an issue. You're the first person I've ever seen complain about this, so in their minds, everything is going well, in this regard. Doctors dont preemptively fix cancer, mechanics dont rebuild a transmission unless they find a problem, I dont pull boards on a wooden boat without knowing of rot. Maybe they'll look into it now, but how would they have known to think about it before? You shouldn't get a paycheck for being captain hindsight, and offering no solution.
Why do people instantly assume you're offended when you criticize their point of view? Offended is quite a term, it means you are extremely annoyed by a behavior.
Look, you can think whatever you want, i just pointed out a few things i thought, that's all.
And also, yea, i am not a dev, so if i provide "solutions" it's all out of goodwill, but i do not have to do that, because it's not my job, it shouldn't be the customer job to think how to fix their game for them, if it was, then i would expect a paycheck, because i would be actively contributing to the game, now, of course they don;t do that, because they use the customer love of the game as a way to ease their work, and discover new things they might have missed, this is why i said devs are not your friends, and you should not treat them as such.
They might put a good face on the stream, but never, treat them as friends, treat them as you would any other professional, because thet's what they are.
I assumed you were mad because you tried calling me out for defending ZOS, when all I'm trying to do is point out the other side. People tend to imagine their problem should always be somewhere on the radar, when that isn't always the case. You're acting like ZOS should just know things, but they have more to think about than this very small issue. I was also giving the counterpoint that perhaps this is how they want things to work. I'm also not pretending they are my friends, I'm acting as if they are humans. Respect doesn't equal the delusion of friendship.
We all know what's in the radar, at this point i think it's pretty self evident.
Most of the issues are small issues, with a few big ones like lag, but that's been talked to death, but small issue after small issue and it becomes quite a problem.
The fact that you cannot provide your class passive if you run a certain role, is self evidently a problem, and saying that it's done to somehow promote certain unused roles, i find that quite silly, because that will not make me thing, damn i really should get a sorc tank to get that minor prophecy, no, i will just use mag sorc or a mag sorc healer (in leaderboards trial groups), its flawed reasoning.
This is why i do not accept the, well, it's a small issue answer, because it's small issues that overall change the game for the worse overtime,because they get ignored, and accumulate, while big issues tend to be resolved, aside from lag, because well, at this point the answer can only be money, because it costs money, more money than they are willing to invest.
When i say friend, i am not talking as a literal friend, but more in a sense, your mental approach is closer to how you would treat a friend rather than a professional, that's what i meant, it's a mistake i see many people doing, maybe i was too early to judge but that's the impression it gave me.
Anyway, i appreciate the discussion.Edited by JinMori on March 11, 2019 10:48PM0