A positive take on the siege bug?

NirnStorm

Hey all, here's a video I made about utilizing the siege bug for outnumbered PvP!

https://youtu.be/Rcjtfv9mHJU

In addition to that, I must say I actually quite miss the siege bug.
Yes, it was enraging to instantly die while having a fantastic fight just to a broken mechanic, but it kept several zerg guilds at check and my performance was better than it has been for likely over two years.

If a bug makes people zerg less, perhaps it's not all bad..!

Tonnopesce

Amen brother....

dtsharples

It's not really 'Outnumbered' when you hide in a tower, and funnel people through a tiny hole where they can't see what awaits them at the top or utilise half of their skills.
Tower farming is, and always has been the most basic game-play in Cyrodiil - adding siege to the mix is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Unfortunately there will always be newbies to fuel the fire by running repeatedly up those stairs.

NirnStorm

dtsharples wrote: »

It's not really 'Outnumbered' when you hide in a tower, and funnel people through a tiny hole where they can't see what awaits them at the top or utilise half of their skills.
Tower farming is, and always has been the most basic game-play in Cyrodiil - adding siege to the mix is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Unfortunately there will always be newbies to fuel the fire by running repeatedly up those stairs.

You are right, when we are 2 and the enemies are 12, we should fight them in an open field to keep it "fair". If we use our surroundings to our advantage it's a "basic gameplay" and "isn't really outnumbered".

Wowee.

VaranisArano

A large part of successful 1vX has always been using line of sight and your surroundings to break up the "X" into a series of manageable fights. Tower farming is no different.

The only times I really see people regularly stand and take punishment from 12 people are the genuine tanks who show up in pitched battle, and they are mostly good for regening my ultimate off them.

JTorus

NirnStorm wrote: »

Hey all, here's a video I made about utilizing the siege bug for outnumbered PvP!

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/Rcjtfv9mHJU

In addition to that, I must say I actually quite miss the siege bug.
Yes, it was enraging to instantly die while having a fantastic fight just to a broken mechanic, but it kept several zerg guilds at check and my performance was better than it has been for likely over two years.

If a bug makes people zerg less, perhaps it's not all bad..!

I'm convinced it wasn't a bug (What was the documented mechanic change for Wrathstone, that could possibly be attached to siege?)

It was a test run, a double blind study. Maybe it was even a precursor to the Daedric artifacts they plan on implementing. Someone at ZOS rolled the dice, made the change and didn't tell us. (And I'm okay with that.) The striking difference between how Cyrodiil operated last week, vs this week speaks volumes. I expect we'll see this come back around a little more polished.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

JTorus wrote: »

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NirnStorm wrote: »

Hey all, here's a video I made about utilizing the siege bug for outnumbered PvP!

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/Rcjtfv9mHJU

In addition to that, I must say I actually quite miss the siege bug.
Yes, it was enraging to instantly die while having a fantastic fight just to a broken mechanic, but it kept several zerg guilds at check and my performance was better than it has been for likely over two years.

If a bug makes people zerg less, perhaps it's not all bad..!

I'm convinced it wasn't a bug (What was the documented mechanic change for Wrathstone, that could possibly be attached to siege?)

It was a test run, a double blind study. Maybe it was even a precursor to the Daedric artifacts they plan on implementing. Someone at ZOS rolled the dice, made the change and didn't tell us. (And I'm okay with that.) The striking difference between how Cyrodiil operated last week, vs this week speaks volumes. I expect we'll see this come back around a little more polished.

I don't have as much faith as this. For all we know sieges could be considered pets in the code and thus buffing pets to use your stats adversely affected them. Who knows at this point.

Equally using siege in smallscale isn't really something unique to this patch either. Siege has always been used as nirn shows in the video so I don't think it's a good argument for keeping the broken state personally.

Ahtu

I don't think ZOS would intentionally break siege, but it is alarming that such a gamebreaking bug made it past QA testing. I do hope that they were able to at least obtain metrics from last week which could help them balance siege in the future if deemed necessary. They have already come out and said that they are looking at possibly adjusting siege damage in the future.

frozywozy

Ahtu wrote: »

I don't think ZOS would intentionally break siege, but it is alarming that such a gamebreaking bug made it past QA testing. I do hope that they were able to at least obtain metrics from last week which could help them balance siege in the future if deemed necessary. They have already come out and said that they are looking at possibly adjusting siege damage in the future.

Something I learned a long time ago is that the QA in this game does not cover even half of what it should.

JTorus

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

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JTorus wrote: »

NirnStorm wrote: »

Hey all, here's a video I made about utilizing the siege bug for outnumbered PvP!

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/Rcjtfv9mHJU

In addition to that, I must say I actually quite miss the siege bug.
Yes, it was enraging to instantly die while having a fantastic fight just to a broken mechanic, but it kept several zerg guilds at check and my performance was better than it has been for likely over two years.

If a bug makes people zerg less, perhaps it's not all bad..!

I'm convinced it wasn't a bug (What was the documented mechanic change for Wrathstone, that could possibly be attached to siege?)

It was a test run, a double blind study. Maybe it was even a precursor to the Daedric artifacts they plan on implementing. Someone at ZOS rolled the dice, made the change and didn't tell us. (And I'm okay with that.) The striking difference between how Cyrodiil operated last week, vs this week speaks volumes. I expect we'll see this come back around a little more polished.

I don't have as much faith as this. For all we know sieges could be considered pets in the code and thus buffing pets to use your stats adversely affected them. Who knows at this point.

Equally using siege in smallscale isn't really something unique to this patch either. Siege has always been used as nirn shows in the video so I don't think it's a good argument for keeping the broken state personally.

I considered that. But if that were the case, why didn't the bug manifest itself on PTS? Perhaps I'm an optimist, but take into account staff changes within the realm of pvp, I suspect someone made the intentional changes. As to what degree of
ZOS sanctioned approval was behind it? We'll never know. The damage was a bit extreme, I won't dispute that, but it demonstrated a way to mitigate problems, an option that I really haven't seen proposed. (I could have missed it though.)

Minno

Thank you for this! This is exactly why I fought for the bug to stay. Yes it was annoying when it caught us in bad moments but it literally changed the behavior of players overnight to the point where performance was better for a majority of players and keep fights became less "meat-stacking" and more dynamic.

Only MMO in history to accidentally solve a community pain-point but remove it early for "balance" reasons lol.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

frozywozy wrote: »

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Ahtu wrote: »

I don't think ZOS would intentionally break siege, but it is alarming that such a gamebreaking bug made it past QA testing. I do hope that they were able to at least obtain metrics from last week which could help them balance siege in the future if deemed necessary. They have already come out and said that they are looking at possibly adjusting siege damage in the future.

Something I learned a long time ago is that the QA in this game does not cover even half of what it should.

Just because something is released with a bug doesn't mean QA didn't catch the issue or doesn't cover enough of the game.

The game was still playable with the issue and it didn't cause any item loss or database issue so I would imagine it was classed as fairly low priority. QA doesn't mean everything is perfect and they don't fix the issues they find either.

Haashhtaag

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

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frozywozy wrote: »

Ahtu wrote: »

I don't think ZOS would intentionally break siege, but it is alarming that such a gamebreaking bug made it past QA testing. I do hope that they were able to at least obtain metrics from last week which could help them balance siege in the future if deemed necessary. They have already come out and said that they are looking at possibly adjusting siege damage in the future.

Something I learned a long time ago is that the QA in this game does not cover even half of what it should.

Just because something is released with a bug doesn't mean QA didn't catch the issue or doesn't cover enough of the game.

The game was still playable with the issue and it didn't cause any item loss or database issue so I would imagine it was classed as fairly low priority. QA doesn't mean everything is perfect and they don't fix the issues they find either.

Every patch they let broken stuff go to live for the sole purpose of arbitrary deadlines. When they fix something it generally breaks something else.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Haashhtaag wrote: »

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Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

frozywozy wrote: »

Ahtu wrote: »

I don't think ZOS would intentionally break siege, but it is alarming that such a gamebreaking bug made it past QA testing. I do hope that they were able to at least obtain metrics from last week which could help them balance siege in the future if deemed necessary. They have already come out and said that they are looking at possibly adjusting siege damage in the future.

Something I learned a long time ago is that the QA in this game does not cover even half of what it should.

Just because something is released with a bug doesn't mean QA didn't catch the issue or doesn't cover enough of the game.

The game was still playable with the issue and it didn't cause any item loss or database issue so I would imagine it was classed as fairly low priority. QA doesn't mean everything is perfect and they don't fix the issues they find either.

Every patch they let broken stuff go to live for the sole purpose of arbitrary deadlines. When they fix something it generally breaks something else.

I don't deny this just the "why is there no QA" response isn't a correct one in most cases. (As a software QA myself - not for ZOS)

JamilaRaj

dtsharples wrote: »

It's not really 'Outnumbered' when you hide in a tower, and funnel people through a tiny hole where they can't see what awaits them at the top or utilise half of their skills.
Tower farming is, and always has been the most basic game-play in Cyrodiil - adding siege to the mix is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Unfortunately there will always be newbies to fuel the fire by running repeatedly up those stairs.

But he still managed to make a point, albeit unwittingly; their stupid trolling was put to an end by one clever player with oil.

Druid40

Hey, Rue bear.

dtsharples

Yes funnelling people through a gap, means you are only fighting a small number, likely an equal number of people at any time.
The advantage you have is knowing what you plan to achieve, and being in a position to use ground based effects, heals and ultis - which cant be used on the stairs.
So essentially you are channelling under-prepared and disadvantage people into a meat grinder. Congratulations you won PVP
I get that you couldn't do this in open field, that isnt my point - although it would be much more impressive.
My point is that you are essentially fighting on equal terms, only you have the advantage of knowing what the situation is and having a flat ground on top of the tower where all of your skills are viable. No shade, its just what it is.

NirnStorm

Druid40 wrote: »

Hey, Rue bear.

Hey dRUEid

dtsharples wrote: »

Yes funnelling people through a gap, means you are only fighting a small number, likely an equal number of people at any time.
The advantage you have is knowing what you plan to achieve, and being in a position to use ground based effects, heals and ultis - which cant be used on the stairs.
So essentially you are channelling under-prepared and disadvantage people into a meat grinder. Congratulations you won PVP
I get that you couldn't do this in open field, that isnt my point - although it would be much more impressive.
My point is that you are essentially fighting on equal terms, only you have the advantage of knowing what the situation is and having a flat ground on top of the tower where all of your skills are viable. No shade, its just what it is.

1. Clearly you've only watched the first few seconds of the vid since if you get past the first minute, you'd see most of it is a 2vX.
2. Please tell me again how many of them get to the top each time? Equal number? I think not.
3. You keep talking of this as if the aggressor group who are actively pushing towards us are "unprepared" which makes no sense to me since they have all the time in the world to prepare before they make the push?
Besides, a semi decent+ group could push into a choke and get away with it. You can see in every Drac vid or Animosity vid or my very own Flame vids how a small group pushes through a tight choke into a large zerg in a closed area and still beat them down. It's about the quality of the players and organization of the group, not about who's top and who's bottom.

Elong

dtsharples wrote: »

Yes funnelling people through a gap, means you are only fighting a small number, likely an equal number of people at any time.
The advantage you have is knowing what you plan to achieve, and being in a position to use ground based effects, heals and ultis - which cant be used on the stairs.
So essentially you are channelling under-prepared and disadvantage people into a meat grinder. Congratulations you won PVP
I get that you couldn't do this in open field, that isnt my point - although it would be much more impressive.
My point is that you are essentially fighting on equal terms, only you have the advantage of knowing what the situation is and having a flat ground on top of the tower where all of your skills are viable. No shade, its just what it is.

You do understand there's no body collisions in ESO therefore every single one of those zerglings is capable of fitting in said small gap?

Minno

Elong wrote: »

show previous quotes

dtsharples wrote: »

Yes funnelling people through a gap, means you are only fighting a small number, likely an equal number of people at any time.
The advantage you have is knowing what you plan to achieve, and being in a position to use ground based effects, heals and ultis - which cant be used on the stairs.
So essentially you are channelling under-prepared and disadvantage people into a meat grinder. Congratulations you won PVP
I get that you couldn't do this in open field, that isnt my point - although it would be much more impressive.
My point is that you are essentially fighting on equal terms, only you have the advantage of knowing what the situation is and having a flat ground on top of the tower where all of your skills are viable. No shade, its just what it is.

You do understand there's no body collisions in ESO therefore every single one of those zerglings is capable of fitting in said small gap?

don't entertain the troll. He is salty because OP siege deletes his meat-ling gameplay lol

InvictusApollo

JTorus wrote: »

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NirnStorm wrote: »

Hey all, here's a video I made about utilizing the siege bug for outnumbered PvP!

Spoiler

https://youtu.be/Rcjtfv9mHJU

In addition to that, I must say I actually quite miss the siege bug.
Yes, it was enraging to instantly die while having a fantastic fight just to a broken mechanic, but it kept several zerg guilds at check and my performance was better than it has been for likely over two years.

If a bug makes people zerg less, perhaps it's not all bad..!

I'm convinced it wasn't a bug (What was the documented mechanic change for Wrathstone, that could possibly be attached to siege?)

It was a test run, a double blind study. Maybe it was even a precursor to the Daedric artifacts they plan on implementing. Someone at ZOS rolled the dice, made the change and didn't tell us. (And I'm okay with that.) The striking difference between how Cyrodiil operated last week, vs this week speaks volumes. I expect we'll see this come back around a little more polished.

I wish that you were right. PvP was much more nejoyable with proper siege engines. Although its rather strange to position balistas inwards on a tower. They should have a minimal range.

frozywozy

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

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frozywozy wrote: »

Ahtu wrote: »

I don't think ZOS would intentionally break siege, but it is alarming that such a gamebreaking bug made it past QA testing. I do hope that they were able to at least obtain metrics from last week which could help them balance siege in the future if deemed necessary. They have already come out and said that they are looking at possibly adjusting siege damage in the future.

Something I learned a long time ago is that the QA in this game does not cover even half of what it should.

Just because something is released with a bug doesn't mean QA didn't catch the issue or doesn't cover enough of the game.

The game was still playable with the issue and it didn't cause any item loss or database issue so I would imagine it was classed as fairly low priority. QA doesn't mean everything is perfect and they don't fix the issues they find either.

I talk from experience. As you are aware I speak frequently with different people from the dev team and it has happened in the past that I communicated information related to bugs / impair functionalities that should have been acknowledged years before and nobody seemed to be aware about it in the dev team.

It is one thing to set a priority on a bug after QA testing and it is something else to not be aware at all.

Now you will tell me that QA and Dev are two different teams. Yes I agree but certain major bugs should not go for years straight without being communicated over to the devs.

This being said, there is no reason whatsoever that a bug like this should ever get released in a live environment. This is game breaking and if something of that importance would be released in Pve, servers would be brought down instantly.

Ranger209

Would call it game changing rather than game breaking. I've died to regular siege and lived through regular siege, same with the siege last week. Can't say, for me, the live/die ratio was really any different. Obviously that first time is a learning experience. If you get in a bad spot and get hit by 2 or 3 you should die. Just need to stay out of those situations. Everyone ends up in them sometimes though, just the way it goes. Just cause something can kill you doesn't mean it should be nerfed.

I felt things were much more dynamic with the uber siege, also seemed like there was more open area pvp going on in between keeps. I also liked the way it slowed down flipping keeps, but that is just my personal preference. Then again I guess all of this commentary is about personal preference from many different individuals. Question is where does the majority of opinion lie and to what degree is it a majority.

I too have contemplated whether or not there was intention behind this or not, wouldn't surprise me either way. The impact of stuff like this can't really be tested on the test server. Some times you just have to roll the dice and see what happens.

Ruckly

NirnStorm

Elong wrote: »

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dtsharples wrote: »

Yes funnelling people through a gap, means you are only fighting a small number, likely an equal number of people at any time.
The advantage you have is knowing what you plan to achieve, and being in a position to use ground based effects, heals and ultis - which cant be used on the stairs.
So essentially you are channelling under-prepared and disadvantage people into a meat grinder. Congratulations you won PVP
I get that you couldn't do this in open field, that isnt my point - although it would be much more impressive.
My point is that you are essentially fighting on equal terms, only you have the advantage of knowing what the situation is and having a flat ground on top of the tower where all of your skills are viable. No shade, its just what it is.

You do understand there's no body collisions in ESO therefore every single one of those zerglings is capable of fitting in said small gap?

LOL gg Elong. And thank god for that.

Ranger209 wrote: »

Obviously that first time is a learning experience.
...
I felt things were much more dynamic with the uber siege, also seemed like there was more open area pvp going on in between keeps.

I don't agree with everything you said, but those two parts I am 100% with you.
Yes, it was annoying af instadying to siege in the middle of a great fight, but it's q learning experience and once you got used to rolling away from that damage things got a lot better.

And honestly, that "bug" or "change" reduced zergs stacking amounts, improved performance and overall made Cyrodiil a lot more fun for me. So perhaps it was worth it!

Minno

NirnStorm wrote: »

show previous quotes

Elong wrote: »

dtsharples wrote: »

Yes funnelling people through a gap, means you are only fighting a small number, likely an equal number of people at any time.
The advantage you have is knowing what you plan to achieve, and being in a position to use ground based effects, heals and ultis - which cant be used on the stairs.
So essentially you are channelling under-prepared and disadvantage people into a meat grinder. Congratulations you won PVP
I get that you couldn't do this in open field, that isnt my point - although it would be much more impressive.
My point is that you are essentially fighting on equal terms, only you have the advantage of knowing what the situation is and having a flat ground on top of the tower where all of your skills are viable. No shade, its just what it is.

You do understand there's no body collisions in ESO therefore every single one of those zerglings is capable of fitting in said small gap?

LOL gg Elong. And thank god for that.

show previous quotes

Ranger209 wrote: »

Obviously that first time is a learning experience.
...
I felt things were much more dynamic with the uber siege, also seemed like there was more open area pvp going on in between keeps.

I don't agree with everything you said, but those two parts I am 100% with you.
Yes, it was annoying af instadying to siege in the middle of a great fight, but it's q learning experience and once you got used to rolling away from that damage things got a lot better.

And honestly, that "bug" or "change" reduced zergs stacking amounts, improved performance and overall made Cyrodiil a lot more fun for me. So perhaps it was worth it!

Only change that instantly forced players to change how they played in cyro and they quickly patched it lol.

NirnStorm

Minno wrote: »

Only change that instantly forced players to change how they played in cyro and they quickly patched it lol.

So true, lol.
But hey, from my experience, when the game gets a new update 2-3 old bugs are always re-introduced to the game. So stay hopeful, it may come back

Tommy_The_Gun

I hate to say it but overall... This accidental bug caused more good things than bad ones. Sure, it was annoying but it is not like it was unplayable or something. Also I was able to adapt to this "bug" quite fast (and I am not a top player). All you really needed was to have a purge sloted. It was a huge buff for magicka builds since stamina builds can not cast purge that often. Also fights were more stategic and you needed to plan your move correctly and watch every step (don't stay in red). It was important to time the "push" through an opening acordingly so the least posible amount of sieges could hit you. In fact I even noticed pugs (yes, random players) to have better coordination & team work because this sige bug kinda forced it on them.
And the most important: performance. IDK if it was because of absence of zerg ball groups or not but server performance in cyro were (compared to what we have now) god-like. It was as close to 2014 as posible (sure it was not excatly as good but still... it was awesome).
Speaking of ball groups... it is also worth mentoning that those groups also had to adapt to this "bug". I have seen some of them running some extra healers & purge bots. Also "don't stand in red" rule started to also applay to those groups and they also needed to be carefull and watch every siege pointed at them.
Overall we will have to wait for the next major update as ZOS stated that this "bug" kinda inspired them and they will do some changes in siege weaponarry next update.

DisgracefulMind

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

I hate to say it but overall... This accidental bug caused more good things than bad ones. Sure, it was annoying but it is not like it was unplayable or something. Also I was able to adapt to this "bug" quite fast (and I am not a top player). All you really needed was to have a purge sloted. It was a huge buff for magicka builds since stamina builds can not cast purge that often. Also fights were more stategic and you needed to plan your move correctly and watch every step (don't stay in red). It was important to time the "push" through an opening acordingly so the least posible amount of sieges could hit you. In fact I even noticed pugs (yes, random players) to have better coordination & team work becouse this sige bug kinda forced it on them.
And the most important: performance. IDK if it was because of absence of zerg ball groups or not but server performance in cyro were (compared to what we have now) god-like. It was as close to 2014 as posible (sure it was not excatly as good but still... it was awesome).
Speaking of ball groups... it is also worth mentoning that those groups also had to adapt to this "bug". I have seen some of them running some extra healers & purge bots. Also "don't stand in red" rule started to also applay to those groups and they also needed to be carefull and watch every siege pointed at them.
Overall we will have to wait for the next major update as ZOS stated that this "bug" kinda inspred them and they will do some changes in siege weaponarry next update.

It was quite nice to see ball groups needing to adapt, spread, not stack in one spot, and not be immune to defenders.

Sucks it's gone ):