Argonians losing their resistance to poison (an open letter)
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Swergdach
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Immediately say, that I agree with max_only in his thread about the wrongness of the fact that the Bosmer lose their stealth passive.
As for the Argonians: despite the fact that the developers did not mention it in the patch-note v4.3.5, from the comparison of the new racial passives of Argonian and Bosmer it is clear that they decided to divide them by the type of resistance (as well as they decided to divide Khajiit and Bosmer by the role in stealth). But just as in the case of the Bosmer/Khajiit, these changes contradict the lore of the elder scrolls. As with the thieving nature of Bosmer, which is described in previous games in the series and in-game books (as noted in the discussion thread about Bosmer), Argonians have always been resistant to both disease and poison. In addition to in-game books and descriptions of past games in the series, Argonian's resistance to poison is claimed in TESO itself (some examples on the screenshots below), and patch v4.3.5 ruins this, which spoils the player's immersion in the world of elder scrolls online.
Quest: Dangerous Webs (Bleakrock Isle side quest). No Comments.
Quest: Bath Time (Eastmarch side quest). Argonian Laughs-at-Danger selling Daril (illegal poisonous Argonian drug) as bath salt. It cannot be safely taken by non-Argonians.
Quest: Welcome Home (Dark Brotherhood story-line). Argonian Green-Venom-Tongue, member of the Dark Brotherhood, talks about the natural immunity of Argonians to poison. He also stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green.
Quest: A Taste for Toxins (Shadowfen, Murkmire Prologue daily quest). Argonian Jee-Lar, agent of Cyrodilic Collections, mentioning about Argonian's resistance to poison in comparison to copper-tongued skinks, which outperform Argonians in this.
However, the situation can easily be remedied by giving to Argonians, in addition to current disease resistance, a little extra resistance to poison and also by giving to Bosmers appropriate little extra resistance to disease. So the desired differentiation of the Bosmer and Argonian will remain, but the lore of the game will not be broken.
In conclusion, I ask the developers not to turn the game lore into a bargaining chip, and not to consider the people, who care about game lore, as collateral damage from rather radical attempts to distinguish races and give the maximum uniqueness to the races by detriment of the game universe. Thank you.
P.S. I am aware that the lore (as well as quests, story, etc.) is not important for many people nowadays, they play like this: youtu.be/lbJ51AJuR7E If these people are reading this - don't bother, move along.
As for the Argonians: despite the fact that the developers did not mention it in the patch-note v4.3.5, from the comparison of the new racial passives of Argonian and Bosmer it is clear that they decided to divide them by the type of resistance (as well as they decided to divide Khajiit and Bosmer by the role in stealth). But just as in the case of the Bosmer/Khajiit, these changes contradict the lore of the elder scrolls. As with the thieving nature of Bosmer, which is described in previous games in the series and in-game books (as noted in the discussion thread about Bosmer), Argonians have always been resistant to both disease and poison. In addition to in-game books and descriptions of past games in the series, Argonian's resistance to poison is claimed in TESO itself (some examples on the screenshots below), and patch v4.3.5 ruins this, which spoils the player's immersion in the world of elder scrolls online.
Quest: Dangerous Webs (Bleakrock Isle side quest). No Comments.
Quest: Bath Time (Eastmarch side quest). Argonian Laughs-at-Danger selling Daril (illegal poisonous Argonian drug) as bath salt. It cannot be safely taken by non-Argonians.
Quest: Welcome Home (Dark Brotherhood story-line). Argonian Green-Venom-Tongue, member of the Dark Brotherhood, talks about the natural immunity of Argonians to poison. He also stating he got his name because he drank so much poison, his tongue is permanently stained green.
Quest: A Taste for Toxins (Shadowfen, Murkmire Prologue daily quest). Argonian Jee-Lar, agent of Cyrodilic Collections, mentioning about Argonian's resistance to poison in comparison to copper-tongued skinks, which outperform Argonians in this.
However, the situation can easily be remedied by giving to Argonians, in addition to current disease resistance, a little extra resistance to poison and also by giving to Bosmers appropriate little extra resistance to disease. So the desired differentiation of the Bosmer and Argonian will remain, but the lore of the game will not be broken.
In conclusion, I ask the developers not to turn the game lore into a bargaining chip, and not to consider the people, who care about game lore, as collateral damage from rather radical attempts to distinguish races and give the maximum uniqueness to the races by detriment of the game universe. Thank you.
P.S. I am aware that the lore (as well as quests, story, etc.) is not important for many people nowadays, they play like this: youtu.be/lbJ51AJuR7E If these people are reading this - don't bother, move along.
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Suddwrath✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I've said this before and I'll say it again: Unfortunately, with each new update the game becomes less and less of an Elder Scrolls game. Which is a shame, because the Elder Scrolls lore is some of the best in the MMO market.29 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I double this, given all the nerfs ZOS should return argonians poison resistance and status immunity both lore- and balance-wise.6 -
moses1763✭✭✭if argonians eat poisonous things to boost their immunity to poison then they are NOT truly immune to ALL poisons.
Lore is an asset to the in-game story but that doesn't mean it should be the only driver of the story. If the game stays static then it WILL die a slow death; evolving and changing is much better in the long run even if some lore falls by the wayside.Edited by moses1763 on March 5, 2019 2:39PMLive, Laugh, and Hope!8 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭if argonians eat poisonous things to boost their immunity to poison then they are NOT truly immune to ALL poisons.
Lore is an asset to the in-game story but that doesn't mean it should be the only driver of the story. If the game stays static then it WILL die a slow death; volving and changing is much better in the long run even if some lore falls by the wayside.
I disagree lore is part of what makes this series. They should give back poison resistance at least. Considering they put no effort into Argonian passives and just nerfed everything without giving anything in return. Giving back poison resistance so it matches lore isn't OP at all.Edited by Koronach on March 5, 2019 2:40PM17 -
moses1763✭✭✭
I disagree lore is part of what makes this series. They should give back poison resistance at least.
I see your point but it is a PART not the whole. I enjoy the lore and find it interesting but the game must change...Live, Laugh, and Hope!0 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭
I see your point but it is a PART not the whole. I enjoy the lore and find it interesting but the game must change...
Problem is it's stated in the game as that Argonians have it, it's already established lore in ESO.9 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think several of the devs only played about an hour of Skyrim and have not the slightest clue about Oblivion, Morrowind, Daggerfall, Arena, and 99% of the in-game lore.
The appropriate resistances should be: Bosmer get what Argonians have now; Argonians get what Bosmer have now, but add 1/2 strength resist disease to it.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.11 -
moses1763✭✭✭You missed the main word: NATURAL immunity. Therefore, your words lose their meaning. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
lol ty for the giggle.
The argument still stands why the need to boost their immunity?Live, Laugh, and Hope!0 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭
lol ty for the giggle.
The argument still stands why the need to boost their immunity?
Because it makes it even stronger so they can withstand even stronger poisons. I don't see you arguing in the Bosmer thread about wanting Stealth passive back. Are you here just to troll? Your argument is invalid considering the picture evidence of poison resistance actually being mentioned in the game. Also they kind of failed on these points.ZOS_RobGarrett wrote: »- When selecting a race, players should have multiple effective options for any given gameplay role.
- The combat power provided by each race should be more equalized.
- Players should feel a stronger sense of power progression through racial passives as they level up.
- The unique feeling and flavor each race provides should be retained and enhanced where possible, and remain faithful to established lore.
That's all for now. Feedback, as always, is welcome.Edited by Koronach on March 5, 2019 3:01PM5 -
moses1763✭✭✭
Because it makes it even stronger so they can withstand even stronger poisons. I don't see you arguing in the Bosmer thread about wanting Stealth passive back. Are you here just to troll? Your argument is invalid considering the picture evidence of poison resistance actually being mentioned in the game.
oh my I see how you are because I find your argument of lore flawed. As I see it as long as I am respectful and without malice I can post in this here thread. I get the love of Lore but sometime its best to step back and relax especially when someone just might have a different opinion than you.
The class changes were in no way game breaking, yes changes were made that some disagree with but in the end its not 'our' game
but 'theirs' so its all mote at this point.
I wish you the best in your endeavor to get the change back as for me I am adapted and happy having a blast.
Edited by moses1763 on March 5, 2019 3:07PMLive, Laugh, and Hope!0 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
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"Moot,' perhaps. But it's not their lore, it's Bethesda's lore. ZOS is only borrowing it, as I understand it.The class changes were in no way game breaking, yes changes were made that some disagree with but in the end its not 'our' game
but 'theirs' so its all mote at this point.
Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.6 -
phantasmalD✭✭✭✭✭Lore is an asset to the in-game story but that doesn't mean it should be the only driver of the story. If the game stays static then it WILL die a slow death; evolving and changing is much better in the long run even if some lore falls by the wayside.
Except one of their stated goal was toZOS_Gilliam wrote: »- Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.
- This was one of our more challenging but exciting tasks, as it gave us additional opportunities to work with other teams. We delved deep into our rich and established lore to make bonuses that highlight racial differences. This means that we didn’t outright balance each race to be equal in every avenue of the game, as there’s a story to be told with how the races engage with the world around them. Nords are well known for being hardier races who can take a hit, while High Elves are better at wielding magical spells. If we were to balance them to be equal in both, we’d lose the unique identities of these races.
Contradicting your game's dialogues is not "obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling".
I already rambled on in other threads how the +1000 HP, no poison resistance and +healing done are very lore breaking and unsupported passives so I'll refrain from doing that here.
Wellll, actually, ZoS is pretty much Bethesda. Both ZoS and Bethesda Softworks are subsidiaries of ZeniMax Media, a company specifically created by Bethesda's founders to act as parent company and allow them to branch out.Cundu_Ertur wrote: »But it's not their lore, it's Bethesda's lore. ZOS is only borrowing it, as I understand it.14 - Achieve the above goals while still obeying our rich and structured lore and storytelling.
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Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭phantasmalD wrote: »Wellll, actually, ZoS is pretty much Bethesda. Both ZoS and Bethesda Softworks are subsidiaries of ZeniMax Media, a company specifically created by Bethesda's founders to act as parent company and allow them to branch out.
Bethesda came first, 1986, as a subsidiary of a different company altogether. Zenimax was established as a new parent company in 1999 and brought in new investors. Zenimax Online started in 2007 as a different subsidiary. Several other companies were acquired along the way (like id or Arkane). The degree to which subsidiaries work together is different from company to company. Post Holdings, for example, has at least three different cereal companies (Post, Malt-O-Meal, and Weetabix), those subsidiaries actually compete against each other. My understanding is that the lore of the Elder Scrolls is Bethesda's IP., but I could be wrong.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.2 -
phantasmalD✭✭✭✭✭According to Pete Hines "ZeniMax and Bethesda for all intents and purposes are one thing. Bethesda has no accounting department, we have no finance, we have no legal, our legal department [and] our financial department is ZeniMax, we all operate as one unit.
Bethesda Softworks is the publisher and ZeniMax is the parent company which owns Bethesda, which owns id, which owns Arkane. But all that really matters is that Bethesda is publishing the games of all those studios.
[...]it's more sort of the overarching structure under which Bethesda operates."
So to my understanding any division within this clump of studios exists merely to cleanly allocate resources and tasks.
But this is off-topic.0 -
Kulvar✭✭✭✭Zenimax and Bethesda are almost the same thing, like Activision and Blizzard.Coward Argonian scholar of the Ebonheart Pact1 -
Swergdach✭✭✭if argonians eat poisonous things to boost their immunity to poison then they are NOT truly immune to ALL poisons.
Why should I be responsible for you confusing real life and the game? In real life, there are many types of poisons as well as many types of diseases. The game only has poison damage and diseases damage, that's all. Argonians have always been resistant to poison in the lore, in the past games and in TESO itself, until when v4.3.5 was released. Where have you been all this time with your "ALL poisons" nonsense?
And here some rhetorical questions for you. Why do Bretons have resistance to ALL forms of magical damage? Why do Nords have resistance to ALL forms of magical damage and physical damage, including poison damage from "ALL poisons"? Why are the Nords better at dealing with poison than the Argonians now? Hell, that Nord from the "Bath time" quest who wanted poisonous bath salts doesn't seem so stupid to me anymore.Lore is an asset to the in-game story but that doesn't mean it should be the only driver of the story. If the game stays static then it WILL die a slow death; evolving and changing is much better in the long run even if some lore falls by the wayside.
Changing is an asset to the game's long life but that doesn't mean it should be blindly shredded in the hope that past efforts and legacy will not be hurt as well as people who liked them.
lol ty for the giggle.
The argument still stands why the need to boost their immunity?
When a person takes vitamin C, his natural immunity is enhanced, but this does not mean that without vitamin C there is no immunity at all. Savvy?Edited by Swergdach on March 5, 2019 9:02PM13 -
Hand_Bacon✭✭✭✭✭Maybe they have access to lore that you don't have yet.
One thing is for sure, we need more open letters.#AlmostGood@ESO1 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Swergdach I went ahead and copied down a part of the racials for Argonians in Morrowind and Oblivion.
•••
The racials for Argonians in Morrowind.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Argonian
Spell: Water Breathing Water Breathing for 120sec on Self, Cost: 5pts
Ability: Resist Poison Resist Poison 100%
Ability: Resist Common Disease Resist Common Disease 75%
•••
The racials for Argonians in Oblivion
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Argonian
Argonian Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
Argonian Poison Immunity ability: Resist Poison 100% on Self, constant
Argonian Water Breathing ability: Water Breathing on Self, constant
Good luck!6 -
Swergdach✭✭✭Hand_Bacon wrote: »Maybe they have access to lore that you don't have yet.
One thing is for sure, we need more open letters.
Or they had access to lore, and now they do what the wind whispers in their ears. Who knows? (͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)
https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/55715
P.S. I'm sorry for replying this, I don't usually respond to comments from obvious trolls. It will never happen again. Thank you for understanding. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)5 -
Swergdach✭✭✭@Swergdach I went ahead and copied down a part of the racials for Argonians in Morrowind and Oblivion.
•••
The racials for Argonians in Morrowind.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Argonian
Spell: Water Breathing Water Breathing for 120sec on Self, Cost: 5pts
Ability: Resist Poison Resist Poison 100%
Ability: Resist Common Disease Resist Common Disease 75%
•••
The racials for Argonians in Oblivion
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Argonian
Argonian Disease Resistance ability: Resist Disease 75% on Self, constant
Argonian Poison Immunity ability: Resist Poison 100% on Self, constant
Argonian Water Breathing ability: Water Breathing on Self, constant
Good luck!
I'm aware of this. I didn't want to overload my original post. I am sure that the developers are also aware of this and until recently took it into account.
Thanks anyway. 1 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As much as I appreciate your efforts, don't leave out this little information when linking racials from previous ES games:
Skyrim: Argonians are no longer resistant to Poison as they were in previous games.
So the removal of Argonians' poison resistance started back in the last main entry of the series.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -2 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The poison resistance removal is just icing on the turd sandwich Argonian got this patch.
Every Tank having access to 60% of our Max Resources with Stonekeeper while it also offers a much stronger and more frequent version of our Potion Passive. Put that on a race like Altmer/Dunmer/Orc, whom can match the 6% healing Done via their Weapon/Spell Damage buff and there's legitimately no reason to make an Argonian Tank.
It goes without saying Breton is the better healer over Argonian but an Imperial can also overshadow Argonians in that department in all but healing done. Healers typically use Infused big pieces with Tri-stat glyphs to reach safe levels of survivability in trials. While an Argonian wouldn't need more than 2 Tri-Stats, Imperial would require none and can just go full Max Magic, allowing it to match Argonians in terms of Health and Magic, while also having 1k extra Stamina and similar sustain. The only trade off is 3% cheaper ultimates vs 6% healing done and let's face it, cheaper Warhorns trump that 6% healing done every time.
It's a depressing time to be an Argonian.Argonian forever9 -
Rake✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They broke quests cause they didnt research at all. Not the only broken racial passive out there5 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »As much as I appreciate your efforts, don't leave out this little information when linking racials from previous ES games:
Skyrim: Argonians are no longer resistant to Poison as they were in previous games.
So the removal of Argonians' poison resistance started back in the last main entry of the series.
Skyrim doesn't matter, this isn't Skyrim. This game states that we are resistant to poison. How is this so hard to comprehend? It is stated in this very game by NPC's that we are resistant to poison. It's established Lore within this very game. Sorry but that is going against established lore not preserving it like they claimed.10 -
DreadDaedroth✭✭✭✭✭
✭if argonians eat poisonous things to boost their immunity to poison then they are NOT truly immune to ALL poisons.
Lore is an asset to the in-game story but that doesn't mean it should be the only driver of the story. If the game stays static then it WILL die a slow death; evolving and changing is much better in the long run even if some lore falls by the wayside.
If the game it's twisted and brought to decay in spite of the lore; driven only by mere numbers then it'd die; it's just a different point of view.2 -
Hand_Bacon✭✭✭✭✭Or they had access to lore, and now they do what the wind whispers in their ears. Who knows? (͠≖ ͜ʖ͠≖)
https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/55715
P.S. I'm sorry for replying this, I don't usually respond to comments from obvious trolls. It will never happen again. Thank you for understanding. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Obvious trolls? Thats a legit observation. When in the timeline is eso? In their own words they delved deep into the lore which could be taken as mining deeper from it or going further back. If we use other TES games as lore settings then its good to recognize ESO controls the lore now.
#AlmostGood@ESO1 -
A_Silverius✭✭✭✭✭Bosmer players feel your pain..All over Tamriel, theres a sudden spike in Bosmers getting caught for their crimes. A sad day indeed... #FightForYourRite Give Bosmers back our stealth!12 -
Seraphayel✭✭✭✭✭
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Skyrim doesn't matter, this isn't Skyrim. This game states that we are resistant to poison. How is this so hard to comprehend? It is stated in this very game by NPC's that we are resistant to poison. It's established Lore within this very game. Sorry but that is going against established lore not preserving it like they claimed.
It's not, your right. But when some guys are using Morrowind or Oblivion as an example for poison resistance I can use Skyrim as an example against poison resistance.
I don't have a problem with Argonians being resistant to poison, don't get me wrong. I can understand why they removed it though. To expect them to rewrite quests is a bit silly, there are thousands of quests in this game with maybe millions of words. To go into them and change them adequately whenever you make some changes is an impossible task especially when all of it is voiced.PS5EUAldmeri Dominion- Khajiit Arcanist -3 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭Seraphayel wrote: »
It's not, your right. But when some guys are using Morrowind or Oblivion as an example for poison resistance I can use Skyrim as an example against poison resistance.
I don't have a problem with Argonians being resistant to poison, don't get me wrong. I can understand why they removed it though. To expect them to rewrite quests is a bit silly, there are thousands of quests in this game with maybe millions of words. To go into them and change them adequately whenever you make some changes is an impossible task especially when all of it is voiced.
We want it back not to redo the quests dialogue. If the game says we should have it, we should have it.9