"interesting build choices"

MashmalloMan

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

You know, let's look at more interesting. Today I am like "hey let's see if I can't make Druid Stamina Build with a Pet!"

So first I chose warden for obvious reasons. So I've got my bear double barred. Alright so now let's chose my weapons! I was like alright Dual Weapons and Bow! Makes sense so far. Alright I put together my bar. A stun, some sustain, a damage buff and some defensive buff. So I've got, lotus flower stamina Morph Cor crit and sustain, green Betty for some weapon power and regin. And of course Ice Fortress. 3 buffs to maintain bit horrid but what can you do.

So then I go look at my bow passives "with bow abilities" is attached to Every Passive, so rip my ranged damage boost with the bird. Alright let's see posion nope nothing in the class kit compliments this so this ain't gonna work nothing is working together.

So while I'm awaiting amazing ideas I'm looking at stamina sets that boost weapon power and there is only one that applies to everything and it's hundings. Which is eh..nah doesn't quite feel right.

The bow sets are very nesh and two hand set is Eh. There simply nothing that meshes well with the idea. So I go back through without the warden in my head and I realized NONE of the stamina sets and mean none mesh well with any other set.

Like bow sets don't mesh with other bow sets, two hands sets don't mesh with anything, and dual wield sets are a pipe dream. Posion sets don't mesh with anything but DKs. Posion sets don't even mesh with Bow which is largely posion damage and dots. You have to be a DK for any of those sets to synergize well.

So I gave up on that idea and was like alright what about a magkica version. By the time I finished building the it I realized I just rebuilt the same warden magkica build without the frost ult and put the bear in there instead.


If they want different builds the sets really need to encourage that, because as far as stamina goes excluding 2 sets hundings and the pentration set nothing meshes with anything but dk. Which is dumb.

I gave you examples of proc sets because they had interesting animations and effects, they fit a theme that support the idea of a druid. If you find the skills are enough and you require statistical advantages, I've listed sets below.

If you want to be "diverse" in pve and dps push at the same time, your looking in the wrong place. There will always be meta sets that juice out the max possible dps, that being said there is WAY more options than Hundings and "the penetation" set that you refer to(Spriggan's?). That shows your lack of knowledge for sets in the game and creativity in theory crafting your own build.

Medium sets.

Hundings Rage for solid stats.
Hulking Drauger for high max sta.
Bone Pirate for sustain/max sta.
Twice Fanged Serpent for 4300 penetration (proccing on ANY damage and lasts 3 seconds). That's a lot of pen on something you can just front bar.
Spriggan for less penetration, but active without a proc.
Briarheart, provides about the same "on paper" weapon dmg average of Hundings, but provides heal.
Tzogvin's Warband just released giving 1290 crit and minor force. This works really well for bow builds, saves a slot on your bar.
Leviathan for 1924 crit active without a proc.
Battlefield Acrobat is crazy good for sustain, it reduces all abilities with cost by 6%. Roll dodging, sprinting, ultimates, stam/mag skills.
Deadly Strike +14% to all stamina based damage type dots. Poison, physical, bleed, disease.
Vicious Ophidian, sustain, dmg, movement speed. This set is awesome. No set is like it for magicka builds. Can even be used in pvp, still provides 3 different stat bonuses like any set does so it doesn't matter that it has minor slayer as the 3pc for pvp if you like the 5pc bonus. This is basically Battlefield acrobat but only sta skills and if you don't require sta reg on the 2-4 pieces, can't go wrong here. Actually better sustain if you wanted sta regen somewhere else in your build and crit from this set.

Heavy sets.

7th legion, +500 dmg and heal on proc, from being hit. Good 2-4 pc bonuses, hp regen, suits a pvp build, non vamp.
Ravager, + 650 dmg proccing on melee dmg, low uptime, even with melee spammable can be 30-50% uptime in a dps rotation thus why it provides so much dmg, but it has very strong burst. Good 2-4 pc bonuses, max hp, suited well for tri food/drink where you can cover the missing hp of bi-food.
Veiled Heritance, stronger than hundings rage due to higher uptime if you can only front bar hundings. Provides extra physical resist as 3 pc, 2/4 pc good.
Advancing Yokeda for 2000 crit on melee dmg, lasts 5 sec, can front bar, great 2-4 pc bonuses for sta builds.
Champion of the Hist for minor herosim, good 2-4 pc bonuses for sta builds.

Use heavy sets on jewelry/weapons. In pvp, slot 1x on chest, 1x leg and 3x jewelry. Provides higher armor and still 5x med.

Transmute Jewelry for pve to robust/infused/bloodthirsty or protective for pvp if you want to use 5x medium armor. 3x jewelry in protective is like wearing 5 heavy, except you trade heavy armor passives for medium armor passives.

With transmutation, heavy sets are basically medium sets when you use them in the appropriate slots. That's what it means to theory craft. There are a ton of options. NOT just 2. ALL of these sets listed effect most, if not all of the damage you do, fitting better in different situations. There are more sets than these and none of these require proc's that can "miss" your target, they just buff yourself.

To your point about the weapon skill line passives, your class has +3% dmg done per summoning skill slotted to any ability used on the same bar, that's huge. Bow's have +5% crit and movement speed when roll dodging that counts as universally applicable and DW provides the most damage from weapons slotted in the game as well as +10% crit or 20% penetration 16% chance to bleed +6% damage done, etc. Those are also universally applicable. Look at destro staves, 8% single target dmg or aoe and +100% chance to proc element status is all it has too.

Lastly, heavy sets synergize better with sta than they do with magicka, there is no equivalent sets like Ravager, 7th Fury or Warriors Fury for the insane amount of damage they provide.

notimetocare

ezio45 wrote: »

Heard zos throw this statement that they want us to make more interesting build choices. Now personally im just gunna call it like i see it, this sounds like corporate bs at its finest. Ya know, when somebody is outraged about something and pr puts out a "we are also very concerned and are looking further into the situation" type phrase. Something to calm the angry sheepeople thats fake af. But lets take zos at their word, whats wrong with how we are building? How are the choices not impactful or interesting.

End game pve: Not alot of variety here. Thing is there isnt alot zos can do about it. Each role has a specific job and there is a best way to do that job no matter how fast they change meta. As soon as they have a patch go live there is now a best way to do something for that patch. We might have to figure it out but from the time a patch goes live there is an optimized setup that will result in giving every group the maximized dps, sustain and survivability that is attainable at that time for any group. Any build diversity that comes from here is based on class and role. Generally we also have guidelines we set for the roles. Tbh i just dont think there is an option for increasing diversity here. No matter what zos does there will always be a new best and any divergent from that best is really just subject to your group. Tanks and healers probably have the least amount of choices there allowed to make. Dps has more freedom but its still do more dps and die less than your competition. Still gotta crank out as much dps as possible with just barely enough survivability. So really even there build choices are made for them based on there skill level. If you cant survive or sustain ya you have to make adjustments. Theres no choice in the trade off. There no meaningful choice of well I can have higher crit but lower damage. Its already decided based on numbers. Health vers resources, health will only ever be desirable up until the point you can reliable survive. Your not making choices, your just adapting the best set up to meet your skill lvl

general pve, same as above players have just made fewer rules for it. Tanks still want to survive while being useful to group. dps still want to kill things the fastest they can while reasonable surviving, healer wants to stay alive while keeping group healed and buffed. no dps is going to invest in more survivability than they need at the cost of dps slower. Its all based on your skill. zos is never going to do anything to make dps want more health than they need to reasonably survive unless health starts doing dmg.

pvp, you got the most diversity buildwise here. you can make a build that specializes in a certain area, can tailor survuvability and dps and utility to your desire. Really though this is just more freedom to choose your destination rather than how you get there. If im trying to be a dps magsorc that can live though a back and forth with my team against another team of players and kill them theres still things I want to prioritize and things i am only going to tailor enough into until i have what i need. example they made shields need health. There still no choice in the matter. At no point am i like god i think investing more into my health is a good idea. im like ok, what is the lowest health a can possibly go to survive. If i had a dps magsorc buddy that wanted to be alittle more tanky than me. ya he might invest in 2k more health, now granted if this is real bro would need to invest like 8k into health to actually see a difference but whatever. bro invest 2k health to be tankier, hes still not going to invest more into that at the cost of damage. Once you have what you need your only going to invest in what you want. Its not a trade off there making, its something they need to there build to be viable for them. there not choosing it.

Really the only build options to choose are what thy of build you want but how you get there is all predetermined, ya you can have a variety of sets to pick from but it still falls as get what you need then invest in what you want. if you want to be a high dps your never going to choose a set like pariah. Really if we only get to make choices regarding what we build i think we have less interesting choices than before. Mid dps mid survivability magsorc or magblade are gone, your either an tank or a glass cannon, high rolldodge chance builds are gone. overload builds gone. Going way back here but blazeplar is gone. Now if zos thought these builds were doing to much damage or had to much survivability fine make fine tuning adjustments. its not giving us interesting choices or even uninteresting choices to pick from. The game as a whole doesnt really have interesting trade offs or again even uninteresting ones. You have the core needs the game forces you to have and then you invest in the area you building for. Everything is either a need or something you want to invest as much as you can in or something you dont want to invest in. I mean theres an argument to me made for things in the same area like spell damage spell crit and spell pen or recovery vs reduced cost but even there a best option exists to give you the most bang for your buck you just have to find it. Ya they can switch around the requirements for a build to be viable but its still not anything we choose and is decided for us by viability and our skill, its not a choice.

i think if zos really wants to increase the interesting choices in our builds they need to give us more types of builds, mag ice dps a thing, i sure there will be alot of players that start building those.

idk, just thinking out loud, thanks for wasting your time reading a lunatics ramblings. What are your thoughts

Put simply, there will always be the best no matter what is ever done. Other builds can compete for most content.

alexj4596b14_ESO

@Marshall1289 I'm going to respond but I need my PC to do so and I'm at work ATM. This is just a place holder.

LiquidPony

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I honestly don't think the "lack of build variety" can be blamed on Zos, at all.

The claim that there is a lack of variety usually comes from pedantic min/maxers who insist on whining about a 2% dps loss if people refuse to use whatever happens to be META during the current patch.

If you can overlook a 2%-5% difference in dps, then there a metric ton of builds to play with. A huge amount of variety.

Relequen would like a word with you.

We *used* to have decent build variety pre-Summerset. You had your NMG guy, your Sunderflame gal, and your Morag Tong person. Some people were in War Machine. Aside from that ... it was whatever. Hunding's Rage, Vicious Ophidian, TFS, Briarheart, etc. Didn't really matter, all of that stuff is about the same. Same's true today. You can swap in Veiled Heritance or Briarheart or Ravager (for some builds) for Advancing Yokeda and it doesn't make much difference.

But dropping Relequen is an absolutely bonkers DPS loss in the content where it's viable (which is most of it).

ZOS needs to find a way to buff stam across the board in PvE and then delete the scourge that is the Relequen set from the game.

MashmalloMan

LiquidPony wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I honestly don't think the "lack of build variety" can be blamed on Zos, at all.

The claim that there is a lack of variety usually comes from pedantic min/maxers who insist on whining about a 2% dps loss if people refuse to use whatever happens to be META during the current patch.

If you can overlook a 2%-5% difference in dps, then there a metric ton of builds to play with. A huge amount of variety.

Relequen would like a word with you.

We *used* to have decent build variety pre-Summerset. You had your NMG guy, your Sunderflame gal, and your Morag Tong person. Some people were in War Machine. Aside from that ... it was whatever. Hunding's Rage, Vicious Ophidian, TFS, Briarheart, etc. Didn't really matter, all of that stuff is about the same. Same's true today. You can swap in Veiled Heritance or Briarheart or Ravager (for some builds) for Advancing Yokeda and it doesn't make much difference.

But dropping Relequen is an absolutely bonkers DPS loss in the content where it's viable (which is most of it).

ZOS needs to find a way to buff stam across the board in PvE and then delete the scourge that is the Relequen set from the game.

Yep. This. Now every stam build in dungeons is wearing basically the same sets. No one is supporting one another. RIP NMG/Sunderflame.

I use to use VO + NMG or Hundings (Switched to Veiled Heritance with Transmutation today). Only time I use the combo today is for trash.

Mind you I actually really like Relequen because it has a fancy animation matching a stam sorc theme and happens to be BiS, but I def miss running around like a ninja in end game content. Missing out on 5-7k dps from unslotting relequen feels really sucky..

They've been tearing away at passives, skills and group composition uniqueness for years.. I understand their efforts to normalize combat, it makes it easier to balance (see racial changes), however it starts to feel less interesting for sure.

They need to do something to mix up the combat like the huge update that came with One Tamriel and we aren't getting it this chapter, we will be waiting another year for sure.

Take a pick:

• 3 morphs a skill
• spellcrafting
• new melee weapon (spears/flails/fists)
• new ranged weapon(crossbows/slingshots/chained axes/magicka book/empty hands for double hand casting)
• new hybrid weapon(1h weapon + fist or totem)
• 2nd class specialization
• 4 skill lines a class
• removal of cp system and addition of perk system to augment abilities instead of statistical advantages
• finish the vampire skill line
• ult for undaunted skill line
• combination of stats like penetration and crit (to buff hybrid viability)
• match the dps bows provide with a VMA endless hail on the other weapon skill lines so sta builds can use DW/DW or 2h/2h or DW/2h without completely butchering themselves. Bow/bow is finally viable and actually very strong..

The psjijic order skill line was just NOT enough and it was PAID content. Jewelry crafting could of been in the base game because it's such a basic functionality that they left it out for what seems like no reason..

#rant #makeesofreshagain

RavenSworn

Marshall1289 wrote: »

Diversity to me, means actual viable choices. Even if you don't min-max, not using certain skills can be a huge loss of dps to your character. Why do we only have 1 option for minor force on stamina builds for example? Why is there only beast trap? Sure you can use channeled acceleration, but it doesn't actually do any damage. It was a step in the right direction, but there is so much they could do with it.

Why not make class skills that include minor force so you can actually have an option between the 2 abilities.

Endless hail is on everyones rotation because it's too good to pass up, sure you can play like a snowflake and do dw/2h for example, but there just isn't enough abilities to warrant such a needless nerf to your dps. Why don't those skill lines have options for ground aoe dots that compare to bow.

These are the types of choices I'd like to see. It doesn't matter if 1 is better on paper, there is already some better choices now like for example Crushing Weapon VS Flying Blade, etc. 1 can give you a shield, more cost effective, heals. The other has cleave dmg, major brutality, execute dmg, etc.

The comment "why bother if min-max meta is all that matters and people will just use whats best" is a misdirect. If that were ACTUALLY true, then people would all be playing nightblades, I've stuck with stam sorc for years not because it was top dps but because I found the theme interesting. I want more options and they can do that easily by making different skills more viable, updating un-used morphs OR even adding more skills to skill lines.

im not too sure i agree with that though. Optimal choices should be that, optimal. limited. high end. the best builds should be imo, few while viable builds ( which are neither top end nor are they low dps ) should be in between. Its like a pyramid yes? top end builds are the best but they arent needed for non-HM, vet leaderboard trials. viable builds however should be where the end game trials and vet dungeons are.

srfrogg23

LiquidPony wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

I honestly don't think the "lack of build variety" can be blamed on Zos, at all.

The claim that there is a lack of variety usually comes from pedantic min/maxers who insist on whining about a 2% dps loss if people refuse to use whatever happens to be META during the current patch.

If you can overlook a 2%-5% difference in dps, then there a metric ton of builds to play with. A huge amount of variety.

Relequen would like a word with you.

We *used* to have decent build variety pre-Summerset. You had your NMG guy, your Sunderflame gal, and your Morag Tong person. Some people were in War Machine. Aside from that ... it was whatever. Hunding's Rage, Vicious Ophidian, TFS, Briarheart, etc. Didn't really matter, all of that stuff is about the same. Same's true today. You can swap in Veiled Heritance or Briarheart or Ravager (for some builds) for Advancing Yokeda and it doesn't make much difference.

But dropping Relequen is an absolutely bonkers DPS loss in the content where it's viable (which is most of it).

ZOS needs to find a way to buff stam across the board in PvE and then delete the scourge that is the Relequen set from the game.

Yup. This is precisely what I was talking about. Massive over-exaggerations asserting that people cannot deviate from a specific FOTM build or they are no longer viable in the content.

Yet, people did the content before relequen and continue to do it without relequen every day...

hakan

Marshall1289 wrote: »

@alexj4596b14_ESO Stop trying to build that way. There are interesting sets that don't pull top dps but can fit the theme your looking for. If you feel like sets like Hundings Rage and Spriggan's are boring and your trying to build a druid, my suggestion would be to go for more proc sets to be honest. They add more animations and flavour and can really make a build stand out instead of straight statistics which you seem to be frustrated with, you still get stats from jewelry, food and 2-4 pc bonuses.

Google: "In role-playing games, a druid is a character class that is generally portrayed as using nature-based magical abilities and striving to protect nature from civilized intrusion. Druid characters tend to have abilities that involve healing, weather or plant related spells, summoning animal allies, and shapeshifting."

That description completely fits warden so check. Now sets.

Don't forget. You can pair heavy armor sets as jewelry/weapons on a medium armor stamina build.

Some set's I'd use if I were you.

Unfathomable Darkness, summons crows that do single target dmg. Pretty cool animation and it's not weak either. (animal summoning/shapeshifting)

Plague Slinger, shoots out balls of poison from a dead skeever body. (poison-nature/animal)

Defiler (Infector Set), chance to summon a pretty big mob every 5 seconds to spew poison in a cone, stuns. (poison-nature/monster summoning)

Morkuldin, chance to summon animated swords to fight with you for 15 seconds (summoning/shapeshifting)

Monster sets: Selene's summons a primal spirit bear to attack for you. Velidreth spawns poison spores that do very high dmg. Maw of the Infernal summons a daedra to fight with you for 15sec. There are many "weather" related or elemental sets although the 1pc doesn't match a sta DD setup.

I won't argue that class abilities need more stamina morphs, I agree. The same can be said about magicka builds needing more weapons. The thing is their class abilities are unique enough that the weapon becomes less obviously boring compared to stamina builds that all behave almost the same.

Yeah i made myself a druid with these sets.
I used Unfathom Darkness, Selene and made her Werewolf for Maximum Druidness.

For Thread, i think you guys are delusional. This game have so many variety builds and stats you can play on. There will be only ONE BiS set no matter what.

And i honestly like people mindlessly torture themselves for 2k more dps and cry about it here. "Damn i made 60k dps instead of 62k, i should sudoku myself or sth"

max_only

Lol “sudoku myself” kekekekeke

DaveMoeDee

Elwendryll wrote: »

Your post is particularly challenging to read.
I mostly agree. In PvE, on a specific class/role, you don't have much options on playstyle. You can have slightly more survivability, slightly less damage, but you can't really change the way you play your character.

I tried to go a little off-meta, and replaced my DW bar on my stamsorc by a 2H bar, and basically, the rotation is almost the same, except I now have a cast time ability as a spammable, one less dot, and an execute. I perform the same if not better as before (Just did vMoL yesterday with it), but that's not like there was any different mechanic or anything. And that's kind of sad.

But well. In pvp you can do whatever you want, you're not spoiling a whole raid for your excentricity. I've tried a no cp stamina build with overload as a spammable, it's fun.

I couldn't continue after sheepeople.

DaveMoeDee

Iskiab wrote: »

Meh, ZoS has a point. People talk about how X and Y are required but really they have no clue. Most players have never experimented because it’s expensive so prefer cookie cutter stuff. That’s fine, but people spreading nonsense irks me.

I can’t think of a single skill besides combat prayer that’s required on a healer. People just prefer to do what’s easiest and conform to x or y, but there are options.

If ESO was more like Rift where it encouraged experimenting I’m sure you’d see players reacting differently.

Between inventory management and the mind-numbing of grinding gear, I want to know exactly what sets I should go for and be done with it.