You get a new skill line. You get a new skill line! And YOU get a new skill line!!!

Nerouyn

Random thought of the day.

What if we took the elemental skill lines away from sorcerer, dragonknight and warden?

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Proposal:_Schools_of_Magic

We know that classes are an ESO aberration. Supposedly spellcrafting was intended to transition us towards something closer to the single player games. For all that I love the original plans for spellcrafting, the game director has basically said that ain't happening.

A smaller and cheaper idea which might make playing magicka more fun and ESO a bit more like the single player games, is if the Mages Guild tests Gabrielle's proposal with the Destruction School. Take the fire, frost and shock skill lines away from their respective classes and make them available to all classes.

Either a new skill line would need to be developed to replace the old, or templar, nightblade and soon to be necromancer could also lose a skill line to this general pool.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

UntrustedExistenz

IndorilArwynLlethran

Play Oblivion.

phantasmalD

Disapprove of the idea for less stinky reasons.

Nerouyn wrote: »

We know that classes are an ESO aberration.

We do? Thanks for telling me, otherwise I might have thought that every game up till Skyrim had classes.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

Nerouyn

Approve of the idea. Sorcerers, dragonknights and wardens should get a new skill line each.

IndorilArwynLlethran wrote: »

Play Oblivion.

I did. Also Morrowind and Skyrim. All deliciously classless.

phantasmalD wrote: »

We do? Thanks for telling me, otherwise I might have thought that every game up till Skyrim had classes.

Then you'd be wrong obviously.

Some of the older Elder Scrolls games have had classes. Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim didn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_class

In role-playing games (RPG), a character class is a job or profession commonly used to differentiate the abilities of different game characters. A character class aggregates several abilities and aptitudes, and may also detail aspects of background and social standing, or impose behavior restrictions. Classes may be considered to represent archetypes, or specific careers. RPG systems that employ character classes often subdivide them into levels of accomplishment, to be attained by players during the course of the game. It is common for a character to remain in the same class for its lifetime; although some games allow characters to change class, or attain multiple classes. Some systems eschew the use of classes and levels entirely; others hybridise them with skill-based systems or emulate them with character templates.

Morrowind and Oblivion had something they called classes but they didn't meet the definition of a class by RPG standards.

Their 'classes' didn't in any way restrict abilities or skills. They affected starting skill levels and ease of learning particular skills, but any player of any 'class' could achieve maximum level in all skills and learn and use all weapons and spells.

i.e. they were both classless games.

Skyrim had a stupidly limited perk system at launch with a restricted number of perk points but it was so unpopular that the point cap was effectively lifted in an official patch.

idk

Disapprove of the idea for less stinky reasons.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Nerouyn wrote: »

We know that classes are an ESO aberration.

We do? Thanks for telling me, otherwise I might have thought that every game up till Skyrim had classes.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

yes, some of the did have classes. Good pointing out the clearly incorrect statement.

I do not think we have to be concerned about Zos considering the idea. Not just because it is only half baked but not a good idea in general. OP is suggesting homogenization which is a poor idea in an MMORPG.

Nerouyn

Approve of the idea. Sorcerers, dragonknights and wardens should get a new skill line each.

idk wrote: »

I do not think we have to be concerned about Zos considering the idea.

It's a great idea so obviously shouldn't be cause for any concern!

srfrogg23

Disapprove of the idea for less stinky reasons.

Nice ideas. Unfortunately, game breaking. Single player games with difficulty sliders can be unbalanced and there wont be any major repercussions. MMOs, not so much.

MartiniDaniels

Disapprove of the idea for less stinky reasons.

You can't change building foundation without ruining this building.

phantasmalD

Disapprove of the idea for less stinky reasons.

Nerouyn wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_class

[...]A character class aggregates several abilities and aptitudes, and may also detail aspects of background and social standing[...]
[...]others hybridise them with skill-based systems or emulate them with character templates.[...]

These two describe Morrowind's system almost perfectly.

Nothing in that text says that classes absolutely must put gameplay restriction on the player, it's just a possibility.

or impose behavior restrictions

Tho Morrowind's classes did restrict the players. Skills starting at lower levels, leveling up slower and not providing progress towards leveling up IS a restriction.
Sure, you could game the system to have 100 in every skill but just playing normally that wouldn't happen.

Also, wikipedia is not an infallible source of information.

Nerouyn wrote: »

Some systems eschew the use of classes

Why did you even emphasize this part, it doesn't pertain to your argument like at all.

kojou

Disapprove of the idea for less stinky reasons.

You lost me at "aberration"...

I actually like the class design.

TheShadowScout

Useless discussion.

Nerouyn wrote: »

What if we took the elemental skill lines away from sorcerer, dragonknight and warden?

You are five years too late with that notion. They are not going to rework -everything- at this point. It would net them no extra profits, loose them some from those people who leave because they get frustrated at having something they liked changed too much, and cost a lot of developer resources for no return... Not something they would ever consider at this point.

(As much as I would have liked it if they had foregone classes altogether and just made skill line lockout choices.... as in, "learn this skill line, lock that skill line, and vice versa", for example... "lean fire magic, lock ice magic" or "learn aedric magic, lock daedric magic" - alas, paths not taken...)

And in any case, they -did- write it into their lore that the schools of magic are not really a widely accepted thing -yet- in the second era ESO is set in, but hint at that the mages guild is currently considering implementing them in all their teachings... thus giving us the fluff that makes it all immersive.

Nerouyn wrote: »

Take the fire, frost and shock skill lines away from their respective classes and make them available to all classes.

Naturally, in ESO, the "destruction" school of magic is more represented by the staff skill line anyhow... (tho I wish we had more flavors for staves) which are... wait for it... already avasilable to all classes! Wooo! Some classes just... specialize I suppose...

If anything... you could think of ideas that can be -added- to the current system. More specializations, so to speak. More guilds. Whatever.

FleetwoodSmack

Disapprove of the idea for less stinky reasons.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Nerouyn wrote: »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_class

[...]A character class aggregates several abilities and aptitudes, and may also detail aspects of background and social standing[...]
[...]others hybridise them with skill-based systems or emulate them with character templates.[...]

These two describe Morrowind's system almost perfectly.

Nothing in that text says that classes absolutely must put gameplay restriction on the player, it's just a possibility.

or impose behavior restrictions

Tho Morrowind's classes did restrict the players. Skills starting at lower levels, leveling up slower and not providing progress towards leveling up IS a restriction.
Sure, you could game the system to have 100 in every skill but just playing normally that wouldn't happen.

Also, wikipedia is not an infallible source of information.

Nerouyn wrote: »

Some systems eschew the use of classes

Why did you even emphasize this part, it doesn't pertain to your argument like at all.

And this is why insightfuls exist.

josiahva

Approve of the idea. Templars, nightblades and necromancers should also donate a skill line.

ALL classes should donate all their skill lines....class should be determined by the 3 basic skill lines you choose...choose the elemental skill lines from DK, Sorc, and Warden and become an "elementalist" which unlocks an "elementalist" ult and one specific "elementalist" skill...etc etc...you would end up with dozens of different classes and quite a variety of builds

Wildberryjack

Your poll isn't a poll. The only options are to agree or say I'm a jerk. There is no disagree (state legit reason).

Nerouyn

Approve of the idea. Sorcerers, dragonknights and wardens should get a new skill line each.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Nothing in that text says that classes absolutely must put gameplay restriction on the player, it's just a possibility.

No it absolutely does say that.

Everyone knows that Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are classless games. It's a huge part of their appeal.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Tho Morrowind's classes did restrict the players. Skills starting at lower levels, leveling up slower and not providing progress towards leveling up IS a restriction.

No that's literally not a restriction. That's a hurdle.

Restriction = prevention. Morrowind's classes didn't prevent any player from doing anything.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Sure, you could game the system to have 100 in every skill but just playing normally that wouldn't happen.

ROFL

So you obviously didn't play it then.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Also, wikipedia is not an infallible source of information.

You're just sore cos it says you're wrong.

Tough!

Wildberryjack wrote: »

Your poll isn't a poll. The only options are to agree or say I'm a jerk. There is no disagree (state legit reason).

Option 4 is exactly that.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

Disapprove of the idea for less stinky reasons.

Biased poll is biased

Tabbycat

Disapprove of the idea for less stinky reasons.

I thought ZOS already did something like that in the past with the Warden around beta... I think maybe. Something about there was supposed to be the Warden class at launch but they decided to scrap it at the time and gave the skill lines to Templars and Sorcerers.

Anywho, I would prefer it if ZOS implemented Spellcrafting at some point.

notimetocare

Nerouyn wrote: »

phantasmalD wrote: »

Nothing in that text says that classes absolutely must put gameplay restriction on the player, it's just a possibility.

No it absolutely does say that.

Everyone knows that Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim are classless games. It's a huge part of their appeal.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Tho Morrowind's classes did restrict the players. Skills starting at lower levels, leveling up slower and not providing progress towards leveling up IS a restriction.

No that's literally not a restriction. That's a hurdle.

Restriction = prevention. Morrowind's classes didn't prevent any player from doing anything.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Sure, you could game the system to have 100 in every skill but just playing normally that wouldn't happen.

ROFL

So you obviously didn't play it then.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Also, wikipedia is not an infallible source of information.

You're just sore cos it says you're wrong.

Tough!

Wildberryjack wrote: »

Your poll isn't a poll. The only options are to agree or say I'm a jerk. There is no disagree (state legit reason).

Option 4 is exactly that.

If you are calling Oblivion and Morrowind classless then you are playing low difficulty or modded. Both of which negate how important class skill lines are to success.

Classes in an MMORPG have to be more rigid than the SP titles. Otherwise we have worse fotm homogeneity

PS4_ZeColmeia

Approve of the idea. Templars, nightblades and necromancers should also donate a skill line.

I approve only because this favors me and those like me who play on one character. You alt a holics can enjoy a portion of the game while I get all of it

barney2525

Disapprove of the idea for less stinky reasons.

You want to take elemental magic away from... Sorcerers? (Taking said magic away from the other classes is ridiculous too, but this is just Goofy) What is your first impression of a D&D Mage? (Which is a Class by the way) - He casts Fireballs!

And our Sorcerers will, what? Hit people with sticks?

My biggest problem with the idea is - There is No Need and No Reason to change things in this manner.

No one is clamoring for this change. I don't see where it adds Anything to the game. It would just be a change for the sake of change.

And that's Never a good thing.

josiahva

Approve of the idea. Templars, nightblades and necromancers should also donate a skill line.

barney2525 wrote: »

You want to take elemental magic away from... Sorcerers? (Taking said magic away from the other classes is ridiculous too, but this is just Goofy) What is your first impression of a D&D Mage? (Which is a Class by the way) - He casts Fireballs!

And our Sorcerers will, what? Hit people with sticks?

My biggest problem with the idea is - There is No Need and No Reason to change things in this manner.

No one is clamoring for this change. I don't see where it adds Anything to the game. It would just be a change for the sake of change.

And that's Never a good thing.

The problem is that if you play a sorc for example...you are FORCED to have the daedric summoning skill line...and that is really NOT a mage skill line at all...its a summoner skill line...its the same for every class...at best there are 2 skill lines you like, and one you detest for the character you want to play....and THAT is why the class system is so messed up. Your class should be based off the skill lines you choose...not saddle you with a bunch of skills that are not so useful to your build. Lets take the example of D&D...its been a very long time since I played D&D, but guess what...NEVER did I ever bother to learn a spell a didn't like. Why would I? in D&D I simply built the character I wanted to play with the skills I wanted to use...in ESO you are shoehorned into a pre-made class filled with skills you would never choose for yourself. In D&D there are a wide variety of character builds...in ESO, very little diversity. In D&D there are dozens of classes and sub-classes...in ESO there are 5(soon to be 6). The whole class system in this game(and probably many MMOs) shoehorns you into something that isnt great to play

TheShadowScout

josiahva wrote: »

The problem is that if you play a sorc for example...you are FORCED to have the daedric summoning skill line...and that is really NOT a mage skill line at all...

Indeed, its a SORCERER skill line!
...because in case you have forgotten, "Sorcerer" in fantasy settings is generally a designation for a mage that gets their mystic powers through pacts with demonic (aka, daedric) entities... as opposed to "Magicians" and "Wizards" who usually gain their magic through study and practice... (...that would be the magic guild skill line in ESO) or "Priests" and "Clerics" who gain it through prayer to holy (aedric) powers (and are represented by templars)... or "druids" that get them from a bond with nature (wardens in ESO)... and so on.

Now, all that being said...
...it IS true that the elemental magic lines do not -really- fit with the classic archetypes, and it would have been a lot better if they had done those a tad differently, maybe even disentangled them from the classes entirely as the OP suggests, and made them "pick one elemental affinity" world skill lines... while making up for the slot in the affected classes with something else...
...but as mentioned, that ship has sailed, was set on fire and sunk a long time ago.

Nisekev

Approve of the idea. Sorcerers, dragonknights and wardens should get a new skill line each.

phantasmalD wrote: »

Nerouyn wrote: »

We know that classes are an ESO aberration.

We do? Thanks for telling me, otherwise I might have thought that every game up till Skyrim had classes.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Arena:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Battlespire:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Classes
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Classes

They had a crapton of classes and "create your own class" option, duh. Also ESO classes (except NB, sorc and necromancer) are unholy abominations that came out of nowhere.

RogueShark

Are we just ignoring illusion spells from Nightblades and Restoration skills from Templar? And sorcerers technically have two skills lines dedicated to 'schools' of magic: stormcalling, which is essentially lightning-based Destruction, and daedric summoning, which is essentially Conjuration.

I think at this point stripping key class features away and m,making them available to all would be a hot mess. Some things should be revisited, though. Like with sorcs, there are so many class abilities a stamsorc will never use, including passives tied to pets and magic damage abilities.