Animation Canceling and You.

Red_Feather

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I don't understand how some players think that this game can function without animation canceling. This game got a self buff rotation with global CD no skill CD and no macros(macros are wow method on animation canceling, GW2 don't have global CD and have a casting speed buff) . People freaked out when they game shields a casting time. Without animation canceling each self buff will feel like the shields with casting time. Now, do it for 4 defensive skills in a row and remember that some of them you need to activate every 6 sec.

Enjoy your game now.

Duration based buffs are one of the things I see people bashing ESO over when it is brought up on forums and reddit. Honestly the combat system in this game is better than Secret World Legends but worse than every other non-tab targeting mmorpg out there.

Just curious why the game still using buffs that need to be recasted every X seconds. Instead of, for example, a buff that remains active and lowers magicka/stamina recovery by X while it remains active.

Lughlongarm

Red_Feather wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I don't understand how some players think that this game can function without animation canceling. This game got a self buff rotation with global CD no skill CD and no macros(macros are wow method on animation canceling, GW2 don't have global CD and have a casting speed buff) . People freaked out when they game shields a casting time. Without animation canceling each self buff will feel like the shields with casting time. Now, do it for 4 defensive skills in a row and remember that some of them you need to activate every 6 sec.

Enjoy your game now.

Duration based buffs are one of the things I see people bashing ESO over when it is brought up on forums and reddit. Honestly the combat system in this game is better than Secret World Legends but worse than every other non-tab targeting mmorpg out there.

Just curious why the game still using buffs that need to be recasted every X seconds. Instead of, for example, a buff that remains active and lowers magicka/stamina recovery by X while it remains active.

It is probably part of having no CD skill system(unlike most MMOS).

kalitoslime

It needs to be removed completely animation canceling should be exactly what it is canceling the move completely and not getting any benefits from it. Animation canceling is one of the main reasons people can get so much out of macro controllers and macro keyboards. In PvP when vs other players u only see shield bash what’s the point of that where’s the counter in that where is the skill in that ?????? Why play if you cant see what another person is attacking you with why play if others can get extreme advantages from buying special controllers or keyboards to be good. Most mmo have removed animation cancel jump canceling because of all the issues

jcm2606

animation canceling should be exactly what it is canceling the move completely and not getting any benefits from it

How do you propose this would work with instant cast skills? Instant cast meaning, the effect occurs the instant you cast the skill. What if I kill something with the Light -> Skill -> Bash combo? Should they die, then instantly pop back to life, because I cancelled the skill with a bash?

Animation canceling is one of the main reasons people can get so much out of macro controllers and macro keyboards.

Removing animation cancelling wouldn't instantly make macros pointless, so this isn't a good reason to remove animation cancelling.

Okay, animation cancelling has been removed in its entirety, I could still write a macro for 'Igneous Shield -> Vigor -> Rally' as a full burst heal combo on stamDK.

I could still write a macro for 'Surprise Attack -> Incap -> Executioner' as my stamNB burst combo from cloak.

I could still write a macro for 'Talons -> Flame Lash -> Fossilize -> Ferocious Leap -> Power Lash' as my magDK burst combo.

Point is, I could still macro entire combos with ease, which still makes macros useful for players who don't care about being banned.

Besides, why would you write macros for animation cancelling? Sure, I could have my 1-5 be set up to use full 'Light Attack -> Skill -> Bash' combos, but what if I don't want to bash? What if I don't need to focus somebody down that hard, or, what if I want to bar swap? What if I want to heavy attack into the skill to get some resources back, then roll dodge out? You'd be setting up tons of variations for each of your macros, which begs the question, why even bother to begin with? Animation cancelling is not that hard, and doing it by hand gives you infinitely more control.

In PvP when vs other players u only see shield bash what’s the point of that where’s the counter in that where is the skill in that ??????

There are other tells to when you get hit by a skill, other than what your opponent's character themselves are doing. Animation cancelling only effects the animation of the character, the skill's animation still plays. Trust me, I've tested it with various skills because of the same argument way back.

Even still, you're not so much looking for the exact animation of your opponent's skills, because PVP is moving too fast to look for them. You're more so looking for general behaviour and sound cues. I know when I've been hit by a Dawnbreaker because of its sound and the flash of light, not because the character slammed something into the ground. I know when I've been hit by Snipe because of the sound, I can't even see the dude most of the time. I know when somebody uses the resto staff ulti because of the visual effect on them, not because of the animation.

Why play if you cant see what another person is attacking you with why play if others can get extreme advantages from buying special controllers or keyboards to be good.

As I said above, animation cancelling is not the only reason to use macros. Skill and action combos are another big reason why people use macros.

Also, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. At least on PC, you don't need a special keyboard or mouse to macro. There's literally an entire scripting language, AutoHotkey, that allows you to override any keyboard/mouse input, and replace it with a set of inputs you script. This is actually what most more advanced macros are written in, not in Corsair's iCUE or Razer's Synapse, but in scripting languages like AutoHotkey, because they give you so much more control.

The best example I can think of is a macro somebody made for Path of Exile using AutoHotkey, that would literally read data from the item, sort all that data into a more readable list, do some calculations to figure out all sorts of hidden data that the game doesn't show you, then display all that data in a tooltip that pops up when you hover over the item. And this is within a scripting language intended for macros.

Most mmo have removed animation cancel jump canceling because of all the issues

It is a bad idea to compare ESO to other MMO's, because unlike other MMO's, ESO has an active and reactive combat system that gives you little time to react to an incoming attack.

In other MMO's, defensive actions such as block or dodge are handled in one of two ways. They are either handled via pure stats, where you have a block and a dodge chance, which determines how likely your character is to block or dodge an incoming attack, or the game gives you several seconds to react to an incoming attack, to give ample room around animations.

In ESO, however, defensive actions such as block or dodge are things the player has to actively perform. Mob attacks will have a specific telegraph that tells you whether you need to block or dodge, or maybe interrupt, that attack, and usually you're only given at most a second or two, outside of a few specific circumstances. Good luck completing Scalecaller without animation cancelling, where one third of the map turns into a one-shot and you have a fraction of a second to roll out. Or Hel Ra, where you have to interrupt the adds in the top fight as soon as possible, otherwise the entire group wipes because they're taking so much damage.

This is actually why animation cancelling is even a thing. Zenimax knew they wanted a more active and reactive combat system, so they needed actions to be as responsive as possible. An action can't be responsive if you're unable to use it, because you're stuck in some animation.

For this reason, defensive actions need to be able to cancel other actions, to allow players to react to attacks in a responsive way. If you want to remove animation cancelling entirely, that means the entire combat system needs to be fundamentally redesigned to not be as active, neither as reactive, as it currently is.

exeeter702

jcm2606 wrote: »

animation canceling should be exactly what it is canceling the move completely and not getting any benefits from it

How do you propose this would work with instant cast skills? Instant cast meaning, the effect occurs the instant you cast the skill. What if I kill something with the Light -> Skill -> Bash combo? Should they die, then instantly pop back to life, because I cancelled the skill with a bash?

Animation canceling is one of the main reasons people can get so much out of macro controllers and macro keyboards.

Removing animation cancelling wouldn't instantly make macros pointless, so this isn't a good reason to remove animation cancelling.

Okay, animation cancelling has been removed in its entirety, I could still write a macro for 'Igneous Shield -> Vigor -> Rally' as a full burst heal combo on stamDK.

I could still write a macro for 'Surprise Attack -> Incap -> Executioner' as my stamNB burst combo from cloak.

I could still write a macro for 'Talons -> Flame Lash -> Fossilize -> Ferocious Leap -> Power Lash' as my magDK burst combo.

Point is, I could still macro entire combos with ease, which still makes macros useful for players who don't care about being banned.

Besides, why would you write macros for animation cancelling? Sure, I could have my 1-5 be set up to use full 'Light Attack -> Skill -> Bash' combos, but what if I don't want to bash? What if I don't need to focus somebody down that hard, or, what if I want to bar swap? What if I want to heavy attack into the skill to get some resources back, then roll dodge out? You'd be setting up tons of variations for each of your macros, which begs the question, why even bother to begin with? Animation cancelling is not that hard, and doing it by hand gives you infinitely more control.

In PvP when vs other players u only see shield bash what’s the point of that where’s the counter in that where is the skill in that ??????

There are other tells to when you get hit by a skill, other than what your opponent's character themselves are doing. Animation cancelling only effects the animation of the character, the skill's animation still plays. Trust me, I've tested it with various skills because of the same argument way back.

Even still, you're not so much looking for the exact animation of your opponent's skills, because PVP is moving too fast to look for them. You're more so looking for general behaviour and sound cues. I know when I've been hit by a Dawnbreaker because of its sound and the flash of light, not because the character slammed something into the ground. I know when I've been hit by Snipe because of the sound, I can't even see the dude most of the time. I know when somebody uses the resto staff ulti because of the visual effect on them, not because of the animation.

Why play if you cant see what another person is attacking you with why play if others can get extreme advantages from buying special controllers or keyboards to be good.

As I said above, animation cancelling is not the only reason to use macros. Skill and action combos are another big reason why people use macros.

Also, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. At least on PC, you don't need a special keyboard or mouse to macro. There's literally an entire scripting language, AutoHotkey, that allows you to override any keyboard/mouse input, and replace it with a set of inputs you script. This is actually what most more advanced macros are written in, not in Corsair's iCUE or Razer's Synapse, but in scripting languages like AutoHotkey, because they give you so much more control.

The best example I can think of is a macro somebody made for Path of Exile using AutoHotkey, that would literally read data from the item, sort all that data into a more readable list, do some calculations to figure out all sorts of hidden data that the game doesn't show you, then display all that data in a tooltip that pops up when you hover over the item. And this is within a scripting language intended for macros.

Most mmo have removed animation cancel jump canceling because of all the issues

It is a bad idea to compare ESO to other MMO's, because unlike other MMO's, ESO has an active and reactive combat system that gives you little time to react to an incoming attack.

In other MMO's, defensive actions such as block or dodge are handled in one of two ways. They are either handled via pure stats, where you have a block and a dodge chance, which determines how likely your character is to block or dodge an incoming attack, or the game gives you several seconds to react to an incoming attack, to give ample room around animations.

In ESO, however, defensive actions such as block or dodge are things the player has to actively perform. Mob attacks will have a specific telegraph that tells you whether you need to block or dodge, or maybe interrupt, that attack, and usually you're only given at most a second or two, outside of a few specific circumstances. Good luck completing Scalecaller without animation cancelling, where one third of the map turns into a one-shot and you have a fraction of a second to roll out. Or Hel Ra, where you have to interrupt the adds in the top fight as soon as possible, otherwise the entire group wipes because they're taking so much damage.

This is actually why animation cancelling is even a thing. Zenimax knew they wanted a more active and reactive combat system, so they needed actions to be as responsive as possible. An action can't be responsive if you're unable to use it, because you're stuck in some animation.

For this reason, defensive actions need to be able to cancel other actions, to allow players to react to attacks in a responsive way. If you want to remove animation cancelling entirely, that means the entire combat system needs to be fundamentally redesigned to not be as active, neither as reactive, as it currently is.

You are wasting your time. Comments that are.... frankly as ignorant as the one you have replied to are beyond reason and logic and are worthy only of a picard facepalm meme.

FilteredRiddle

Good post, OP.

Some people who have responded might not understand that ZOS has explicitly given animation cancelling their blessing, and that it is necessary to achieve good DPS and simply a fact of life at this point, but you addressed the reality of the game as we know it.

BuddyAces

exeeter702 wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

animation canceling should be exactly what it is canceling the move completely and not getting any benefits from it

How do you propose this would work with instant cast skills? Instant cast meaning, the effect occurs the instant you cast the skill. What if I kill something with the Light -> Skill -> Bash combo? Should they die, then instantly pop back to life, because I cancelled the skill with a bash?

Animation canceling is one of the main reasons people can get so much out of macro controllers and macro keyboards.

Removing animation cancelling wouldn't instantly make macros pointless, so this isn't a good reason to remove animation cancelling.

Okay, animation cancelling has been removed in its entirety, I could still write a macro for 'Igneous Shield -> Vigor -> Rally' as a full burst heal combo on stamDK.

I could still write a macro for 'Surprise Attack -> Incap -> Executioner' as my stamNB burst combo from cloak.

I could still write a macro for 'Talons -> Flame Lash -> Fossilize -> Ferocious Leap -> Power Lash' as my magDK burst combo.

Point is, I could still macro entire combos with ease, which still makes macros useful for players who don't care about being banned.

Besides, why would you write macros for animation cancelling? Sure, I could have my 1-5 be set up to use full 'Light Attack -> Skill -> Bash' combos, but what if I don't want to bash? What if I don't need to focus somebody down that hard, or, what if I want to bar swap? What if I want to heavy attack into the skill to get some resources back, then roll dodge out? You'd be setting up tons of variations for each of your macros, which begs the question, why even bother to begin with? Animation cancelling is not that hard, and doing it by hand gives you infinitely more control.

In PvP when vs other players u only see shield bash what’s the point of that where’s the counter in that where is the skill in that ??????

There are other tells to when you get hit by a skill, other than what your opponent's character themselves are doing. Animation cancelling only effects the animation of the character, the skill's animation still plays. Trust me, I've tested it with various skills because of the same argument way back.

Even still, you're not so much looking for the exact animation of your opponent's skills, because PVP is moving too fast to look for them. You're more so looking for general behaviour and sound cues. I know when I've been hit by a Dawnbreaker because of its sound and the flash of light, not because the character slammed something into the ground. I know when I've been hit by Snipe because of the sound, I can't even see the dude most of the time. I know when somebody uses the resto staff ulti because of the visual effect on them, not because of the animation.

Why play if you cant see what another person is attacking you with why play if others can get extreme advantages from buying special controllers or keyboards to be good.

As I said above, animation cancelling is not the only reason to use macros. Skill and action combos are another big reason why people use macros.

Also, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. At least on PC, you don't need a special keyboard or mouse to macro. There's literally an entire scripting language, AutoHotkey, that allows you to override any keyboard/mouse input, and replace it with a set of inputs you script. This is actually what most more advanced macros are written in, not in Corsair's iCUE or Razer's Synapse, but in scripting languages like AutoHotkey, because they give you so much more control.

The best example I can think of is a macro somebody made for Path of Exile using AutoHotkey, that would literally read data from the item, sort all that data into a more readable list, do some calculations to figure out all sorts of hidden data that the game doesn't show you, then display all that data in a tooltip that pops up when you hover over the item. And this is within a scripting language intended for macros.

Most mmo have removed animation cancel jump canceling because of all the issues

It is a bad idea to compare ESO to other MMO's, because unlike other MMO's, ESO has an active and reactive combat system that gives you little time to react to an incoming attack.

In other MMO's, defensive actions such as block or dodge are handled in one of two ways. They are either handled via pure stats, where you have a block and a dodge chance, which determines how likely your character is to block or dodge an incoming attack, or the game gives you several seconds to react to an incoming attack, to give ample room around animations.

In ESO, however, defensive actions such as block or dodge are things the player has to actively perform. Mob attacks will have a specific telegraph that tells you whether you need to block or dodge, or maybe interrupt, that attack, and usually you're only given at most a second or two, outside of a few specific circumstances. Good luck completing Scalecaller without animation cancelling, where one third of the map turns into a one-shot and you have a fraction of a second to roll out. Or Hel Ra, where you have to interrupt the adds in the top fight as soon as possible, otherwise the entire group wipes because they're taking so much damage.

This is actually why animation cancelling is even a thing. Zenimax knew they wanted a more active and reactive combat system, so they needed actions to be as responsive as possible. An action can't be responsive if you're unable to use it, because you're stuck in some animation.

For this reason, defensive actions need to be able to cancel other actions, to allow players to react to attacks in a responsive way. If you want to remove animation cancelling entirely, that means the entire combat system needs to be fundamentally redesigned to not be as active, neither as reactive, as it currently is.

You are wasting your time. Comments that are.... frankly as ignorant as the one you have replied to are beyond reason and logic and are worthy only of a picard facepalm meme.

This. This. This. The amount of sheer ignorance and not understanding animation cancelling at this point in the game's life is simply people not wanting answers/explanations. They need a reason to get up on a box and cry about something.

Btw, good write up

Davadin

From Wrathstone Patch Notes in the UI/Gameplay section:
Added a Loading Screen Tip: "Once you've begun a light attack, you can immediately activate an ability from your skill bar without interrupting that light attack."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-5-wrathstone-update-21#latest

SAVAGE.

lol

Druid40

Good job.

validifyedneb18_ESO

I dont block cancel, both because I am *** at it, and because I find the idea unfun and wish to set an example as a high end build that doesn't rely on this cheese.

exeeter702

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I dont block cancel, both because I am *** at it, and because I find the idea unfun and wish to set an example as a high end build that doesn't rely on this cheese.

......................

Koensol

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I dont block cancel, both because I am *** at it, and because I find the idea unfun and wish to set an example as a high end build that doesn't rely on this cheese.

"I am *** at it. Therefore it is cheese"

Your average animation cancelling QQ poster - 2019

Royaji

Koensol wrote: »

[
"I am *** at it and have no idea how and why is it utilised. Therefore it is cheese"

FTFY

exeeter702

Royaji wrote: »

Koensol wrote: »

[
"I am *** at it and have no idea how and why is it utilised. Therefore it is cheese"

FTFY

Koensol wrote: »

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I dont block cancel, both because I am *** at it, and because I find the idea unfun and wish to set an example as a high end build that doesn't rely on this cheese.

"I am *** at it. Therefore it is cheese"

Your average animation cancelling QQ poster - 2019

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I dont block cancel, both because I am *** at it, and because I dont have the slightest clue as to what i am even talking about nor do i have even the faintest grasp of this games combat system.

FTF everyone.

p00tx

So, for those of you having trouble connecting your light attacks, I've been experimenting with various scenarios and have some suggestions:

1) Slow down. Too much speed is your enemy. It might seem counter intuitive, but it's true. You should only be using one skill per second, with your light attack occurring on the half-second mark. If you're going faster than this, you're missing out on dmg.

2) Try parsing in a smaller home in a low traffic region. Make sure the house has no extraneous furnishings and minimal lightning. It should just be your target dummy, your ulti refill dummy, platform structures for each (since they like to sink into the ground when you log off and need to be reset) and only enough light sources to be able to see your dummy. Large homes like the Psijic Villa, which is likely occupied over several instances by thousands of players at any given time are not the optimal place to parse.

3) Record your rotation to view later. We don't have combat metrics on console, so we rely on constant counting and visual cues to measure our parse timing and success, and sometimes it looks to me like I've missed every single light attack, in spite of my constant and careful weaving. After going back and watching my clips however, I can actually see myself hitting those light attacks, so I know it was likely just another famous visual desync on eso-XBox.

Aurielle

validifyedneb18_ESO wrote: »

I dont block cancel, both because I am *** at it, and because I find the idea unfun and wish to set an example as a high end build that doesn't rely on this cheese.

No competitive player block cancels, for the reasons the OP outlined in his OP...........

russelmmendoza

Animation cancelling is a skill.

Top tier dps guys are the best in this skill thats why they are top tier. I watch their videos and I cant see their la land before the skill. Thats why they achieve high dps.

Me, shucks, I always see my la land before my skills.

Weaving or animation cancelling is a huge factor in dps, and top tier dps are masters of the art.

Darkstorne

DocFrost72 wrote: »

EDIT: found by user @GrumpyDuckling, thank you!

From Wrathstone Patch Notes in the UI/Gameplay section:
Added a Loading Screen Tip: "Once you've begun a light attack, you can immediately activate an ability from your skill bar without interrupting that light attack."
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/460633/pc-mac-patch-notes-v4-3-5-wrathstone-update-21#latest

Literally “It’s not a bug, it’s a feature!”

I accepted it was here to stay years ago. But make no mistake, it’s only because they don’t want to bother redesigning the animation system to fix it. The game applies damage the instant you initiate an attack, rather than the point an attack connects (like any well designed combat system), and you can see their animations are built around that restriction - swinging a two handed mace for example should have a hefty “wind up” part in its animation, but instead your character will instantaneously swing it at an enemy as if the mace is made of plastic in an attempt to mask the disconnect between animation connection and damage dealt, and then you’re stuck with a crazy long animation pause afterwards as though the mace has suddenly become heavy. Which feels awful, because realistically if it WAS heavy this is the point you’d utilize the attack’s momentum to follow through into the next swing, not just let it hang at your side like a dead weight.

Frustrating, because it means we get bad animations as outlined above, and animation cancelling where you can literally cancel an attack before you even see it connect and yet damage is still dealt. But I get that devs don’t want to spend an insane amount of time fixing such a hard coded problem, especially when it’s become such a normal part of gameplay that an insane number of players defend it because they’re worried their DPS will suffer if it gets fixed (as though damage dealt and/or mob health wouldn’t be balanced to account for any fixes in that scenario).

Weird, unfortunate, but it’s here to stay. I’m sure they’ve learned from this for their new MMO in development though.

idk

jcm2606 wrote: »

animation canceling should be exactly what it is canceling the move completely and not getting any benefits from it

How do you propose this would work with instant cast skills? Instant cast meaning, the effect occurs the instant you cast the skill. What if I kill something with the Light -> Skill -> Bash combo? Should they die, then instantly pop back to life, because I cancelled the skill with a bash?

Animation canceling is one of the main reasons people can get so much out of macro controllers and macro keyboards.

Removing animation cancelling wouldn't instantly make macros pointless, so this isn't a good reason to remove animation cancelling.

Okay, animation cancelling has been removed in its entirety, I could still write a macro for 'Igneous Shield -> Vigor -> Rally' as a full burst heal combo on stamDK.

I could still write a macro for 'Surprise Attack -> Incap -> Executioner' as my stamNB burst combo from cloak.

I could still write a macro for 'Talons -> Flame Lash -> Fossilize -> Ferocious Leap -> Power Lash' as my magDK burst combo.

Point is, I could still macro entire combos with ease, which still makes macros useful for players who don't care about being banned.

Besides, why would you write macros for animation cancelling? Sure, I could have my 1-5 be set up to use full 'Light Attack -> Skill -> Bash' combos, but what if I don't want to bash? What if I don't need to focus somebody down that hard, or, what if I want to bar swap? What if I want to heavy attack into the skill to get some resources back, then roll dodge out? You'd be setting up tons of variations for each of your macros, which begs the question, why even bother to begin with? Animation cancelling is not that hard, and doing it by hand gives you infinitely more control.

In PvP when vs other players u only see shield bash what’s the point of that where’s the counter in that where is the skill in that ??????

There are other tells to when you get hit by a skill, other than what your opponent's character themselves are doing. Animation cancelling only effects the animation of the character, the skill's animation still plays. Trust me, I've tested it with various skills because of the same argument way back.

Even still, you're not so much looking for the exact animation of your opponent's skills, because PVP is moving too fast to look for them. You're more so looking for general behaviour and sound cues. I know when I've been hit by a Dawnbreaker because of its sound and the flash of light, not because the character slammed something into the ground. I know when I've been hit by Snipe because of the sound, I can't even see the dude most of the time. I know when somebody uses the resto staff ulti because of the visual effect on them, not because of the animation.

Why play if you cant see what another person is attacking you with why play if others can get extreme advantages from buying special controllers or keyboards to be good.

As I said above, animation cancelling is not the only reason to use macros. Skill and action combos are another big reason why people use macros.

Also, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. At least on PC, you don't need a special keyboard or mouse to macro. There's literally an entire scripting language, AutoHotkey, that allows you to override any keyboard/mouse input, and replace it with a set of inputs you script. This is actually what most more advanced macros are written in, not in Corsair's iCUE or Razer's Synapse, but in scripting languages like AutoHotkey, because they give you so much more control.

The best example I can think of is a macro somebody made for Path of Exile using AutoHotkey, that would literally read data from the item, sort all that data into a more readable list, do some calculations to figure out all sorts of hidden data that the game doesn't show you, then display all that data in a tooltip that pops up when you hover over the item. And this is within a scripting language intended for macros.

Most mmo have removed animation cancel jump canceling because of all the issues

It is a bad idea to compare ESO to other MMO's, because unlike other MMO's, ESO has an active and reactive combat system that gives you little time to react to an incoming attack.

In other MMO's, defensive actions such as block or dodge are handled in one of two ways. They are either handled via pure stats, where you have a block and a dodge chance, which determines how likely your character is to block or dodge an incoming attack, or the game gives you several seconds to react to an incoming attack, to give ample room around animations.

In ESO, however, defensive actions such as block or dodge are things the player has to actively perform. Mob attacks will have a specific telegraph that tells you whether you need to block or dodge, or maybe interrupt, that attack, and usually you're only given at most a second or two, outside of a few specific circumstances. Good luck completing Scalecaller without animation cancelling, where one third of the map turns into a one-shot and you have a fraction of a second to roll out. Or Hel Ra, where you have to interrupt the adds in the top fight as soon as possible, otherwise the entire group wipes because they're taking so much damage.

This is actually why animation cancelling is even a thing. Zenimax knew they wanted a more active and reactive combat system, so they needed actions to be as responsive as possible. An action can't be responsive if you're unable to use it, because you're stuck in some animation.

For this reason, defensive actions need to be able to cancel other actions, to allow players to react to attacks in a responsive way. If you want to remove animation cancelling entirely, that means the entire combat system needs to be fundamentally redesigned to not be as active, neither as reactive, as it currently is.

Very good points, However, the type of people that argue against AC are blind to logic and rational explanations. So unfortunately this falls on deaf ears.

MeadDrinker02

p00tx wrote: »

So, for those of you having trouble connecting your light attacks, I've been experimenting with various scenarios and have some suggestions:

1) Slow down. Too much speed is your enemy. It might seem counter intuitive, but it's true. You should only be using one skill per second, with your light attack occurring on the half-second mark. If you're going faster than this, you're missing out on dmg.

2) Try parsing in a smaller home in a low traffic region. Make sure the house has no extraneous furnishings and minimal lightning. It should just be your target dummy, your ulti refill dummy, platform structures for each (since they like to sink into the ground when you log off and need to be reset) and only enough light sources to be able to see your dummy. Large homes like the Psijic Villa, which is likely occupied over several instances by thousands of players at any given time are not the optimal place to parse.

3) Record your rotation to view later. We don't have combat metrics on console, so we rely on constant counting and visual cues to measure our parse timing and success, and sometimes it looks to me like I've missed every single light attack, in spite of my constant and careful weaving. After going back and watching my clips however, I can actually see myself hitting those light attacks, so I know it was likely just another famous visual desync on eso-XBox.

You suggestions have help me a lot, I am seeing more light attacks in combat metric log and my dps has risen by at least 3-4k!! I can now hit passed 41k dps on my magplar and 44k dps on my pet magsorc. With more practice I should another 1-2k gradually.

Aurielle

idk wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

animation canceling should be exactly what it is canceling the move completely and not getting any benefits from it

How do you propose this would work with instant cast skills? Instant cast meaning, the effect occurs the instant you cast the skill. What if I kill something with the Light -> Skill -> Bash combo? Should they die, then instantly pop back to life, because I cancelled the skill with a bash?

Animation canceling is one of the main reasons people can get so much out of macro controllers and macro keyboards.

Removing animation cancelling wouldn't instantly make macros pointless, so this isn't a good reason to remove animation cancelling.

Okay, animation cancelling has been removed in its entirety, I could still write a macro for 'Igneous Shield -> Vigor -> Rally' as a full burst heal combo on stamDK.

I could still write a macro for 'Surprise Attack -> Incap -> Executioner' as my stamNB burst combo from cloak.

I could still write a macro for 'Talons -> Flame Lash -> Fossilize -> Ferocious Leap -> Power Lash' as my magDK burst combo.

Point is, I could still macro entire combos with ease, which still makes macros useful for players who don't care about being banned.

Besides, why would you write macros for animation cancelling? Sure, I could have my 1-5 be set up to use full 'Light Attack -> Skill -> Bash' combos, but what if I don't want to bash? What if I don't need to focus somebody down that hard, or, what if I want to bar swap? What if I want to heavy attack into the skill to get some resources back, then roll dodge out? You'd be setting up tons of variations for each of your macros, which begs the question, why even bother to begin with? Animation cancelling is not that hard, and doing it by hand gives you infinitely more control.

In PvP when vs other players u only see shield bash what’s the point of that where’s the counter in that where is the skill in that ??????

There are other tells to when you get hit by a skill, other than what your opponent's character themselves are doing. Animation cancelling only effects the animation of the character, the skill's animation still plays. Trust me, I've tested it with various skills because of the same argument way back.

Even still, you're not so much looking for the exact animation of your opponent's skills, because PVP is moving too fast to look for them. You're more so looking for general behaviour and sound cues. I know when I've been hit by a Dawnbreaker because of its sound and the flash of light, not because the character slammed something into the ground. I know when I've been hit by Snipe because of the sound, I can't even see the dude most of the time. I know when somebody uses the resto staff ulti because of the visual effect on them, not because of the animation.

Why play if you cant see what another person is attacking you with why play if others can get extreme advantages from buying special controllers or keyboards to be good.

As I said above, animation cancelling is not the only reason to use macros. Skill and action combos are another big reason why people use macros.

Also, I'm going to let you in on a little secret. At least on PC, you don't need a special keyboard or mouse to macro. There's literally an entire scripting language, AutoHotkey, that allows you to override any keyboard/mouse input, and replace it with a set of inputs you script. This is actually what most more advanced macros are written in, not in Corsair's iCUE or Razer's Synapse, but in scripting languages like AutoHotkey, because they give you so much more control.

The best example I can think of is a macro somebody made for Path of Exile using AutoHotkey, that would literally read data from the item, sort all that data into a more readable list, do some calculations to figure out all sorts of hidden data that the game doesn't show you, then display all that data in a tooltip that pops up when you hover over the item. And this is within a scripting language intended for macros.

Most mmo have removed animation cancel jump canceling because of all the issues

It is a bad idea to compare ESO to other MMO's, because unlike other MMO's, ESO has an active and reactive combat system that gives you little time to react to an incoming attack.

In other MMO's, defensive actions such as block or dodge are handled in one of two ways. They are either handled via pure stats, where you have a block and a dodge chance, which determines how likely your character is to block or dodge an incoming attack, or the game gives you several seconds to react to an incoming attack, to give ample room around animations.

In ESO, however, defensive actions such as block or dodge are things the player has to actively perform. Mob attacks will have a specific telegraph that tells you whether you need to block or dodge, or maybe interrupt, that attack, and usually you're only given at most a second or two, outside of a few specific circumstances. Good luck completing Scalecaller without animation cancelling, where one third of the map turns into a one-shot and you have a fraction of a second to roll out. Or Hel Ra, where you have to interrupt the adds in the top fight as soon as possible, otherwise the entire group wipes because they're taking so much damage.

This is actually why animation cancelling is even a thing. Zenimax knew they wanted a more active and reactive combat system, so they needed actions to be as responsive as possible. An action can't be responsive if you're unable to use it, because you're stuck in some animation.

For this reason, defensive actions need to be able to cancel other actions, to allow players to react to attacks in a responsive way. If you want to remove animation cancelling entirely, that means the entire combat system needs to be fundamentally redesigned to not be as active, neither as reactive, as it currently is.

Very good points, However, the type of people that argue against AC are blind to logic and rational explanations. So unfortunately this falls on deaf ears.

Yep. They remind a lot of anti-vaxxers, actually. You explain things calmly, and rationally to them, and they continue to spout blatant lies (e.g. “animation cancelling allows you to cast five skills in one second!” or “animation cancelling means I don’t see any skill animations at all, and that ruins my immersion!”), while being utterly convinced that they are correct. When you tell them that what you’re saying is a fact, they either insist that it is merely your opinion, or that you are benefitting from your supposed “lie” and therefore cannot be trusted.

Guys, it’s not some big conspiracy. Animation cancelling does not bypass the global cooldown, nor does it magically add an additional 30k DPS to your parse. It’s not an exploit, it’s not a bug. These are facts. Are you free to dislike animation cancelling? Of course, but insisting that what I have just said here is a lie is factually incorrect.

Vyvrhel

DocFrost72 wrote: »

That sounds like your ping bounces like mine. The best way to handle that would be ethernet (if you don't already have it) and practicing at different ping levels.

Thanks a lot. What is the minimum ping for the full speed weaving?

p00tx

MeadDrinker02 wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

So, for those of you having trouble connecting your light attacks, I've been experimenting with various scenarios and have some suggestions:

1) Slow down. Too much speed is your enemy. It might seem counter intuitive, but it's true. You should only be using one skill per second, with your light attack occurring on the half-second mark. If you're going faster than this, you're missing out on dmg.

2) Try parsing in a smaller home in a low traffic region. Make sure the house has no extraneous furnishings and minimal lightning. It should just be your target dummy, your ulti refill dummy, platform structures for each (since they like to sink into the ground when you log off and need to be reset) and only enough light sources to be able to see your dummy. Large homes like the Psijic Villa, which is likely occupied over several instances by thousands of players at any given time are not the optimal place to parse.

3) Record your rotation to view later. We don't have combat metrics on console, so we rely on constant counting and visual cues to measure our parse timing and success, and sometimes it looks to me like I've missed every single light attack, in spite of my constant and careful weaving. After going back and watching my clips however, I can actually see myself hitting those light attacks, so I know it was likely just another famous visual desync on eso-XBox.

You suggestions have help me a lot, I am seeing more light attacks in combat metric log and my dps has risen by at least 3-4k!! I can now hit passed 41k dps on my magplar and 44k dps on my pet magsorc. With more practice I should another 1-2k gradually.

Dude, that's huge! Right on!